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Old 27th January 2019, 06:39 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Pre-crime units are being formed all around the country
That's a strange coincidence. A timber marble, with the word "applecorped" engraved into it, just rolled out of a chute onto my desk.
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Old 27th January 2019, 06:56 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
That's a strange coincidence. A timber marble, with the word "applecorped" engraved into it, just rolled out of a chute onto my desk.
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Old 27th January 2019, 07:04 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
How is such a record different than the Tweet he himself made a public record of?
Like in this thread, the actual tweet is not given. Only the fact that he was reported for a "hate crime". That label will stick around long after the unquoted tweet is forgotten.
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Old 27th January 2019, 07:11 PM   #44
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Of all the things to be outraged or even worried about, the UK police monitoring a potential transgender hater is not one of them.

Given all the mass shooters and whatnot, I'd have to see the bigger picture of how the police are monitoring haters before judging further.
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Old 27th January 2019, 08:56 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Of all the things to be outraged or even worried about, the UK police monitoring a potential transgender hater is not one of them.

Given all the mass shooters and whatnot, I'd have to see the bigger picture of how the police are monitoring haters before judging further.
I would like to know the probability of violence that justifies monitoring anyone who does this. Maybe a double blind study to see if this accomplishes anything.
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Old 28th January 2019, 01:22 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Someone complained to the police. The police called him to let him know someone complained and find out if a crime has been committed and probably to let him know that his behaviour has been noted.



Basically if someone complains about you then you can expect a call from the police regardless of whether you have committed a crime or not.
How dare the police investigate a complaint!
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Old 28th January 2019, 01:29 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
So apparently this was recorded by the police as a "hate incident"?

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/la...nd-hate-crime/



Does this mean that this man is now in a police database as having committed a "hate incident"? Could it mean that he might have trouble finding work in the future because of it? What is the purpose of this information anyway?
No. There is no public access to such records, police have always (well for decades and decades) recorded such hearsay the only difference is that they now have a classification for "hate" reports, just like they have a classification for claims of domestic violence. This type of information is not used in criminal checks for employment.
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Old 28th January 2019, 02:55 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Whenever you don't have an argument, try and be clever. Never fails.
You claimed: "Police should investigate crime."

Police investigate actual crimes, suspected or claimed crimes, and events that may or may not be crimes all the time. Part of the investigation includes determining whether a crime was actually committed of not. So basically you said they should do exactly what they did do.
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Old 28th January 2019, 02:58 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Does this mean that this man is now in a police database as having committed a "hate incident"? Could it mean that he might have trouble finding work in the future because of it?
It would not show up on a standard DBS check, but may on an enhanced check, if it was relevant to the actual role being applied for. Only a very limited range of roles require a standard, let alone an enhanced check. As an ex-police officer himself, he should have been more than aware of that, so presumably he doesn't actually care.

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What is the purpose of this information anyway?
It may be useful evidence if further complaints are received, and if future behaviour crosses the line into unlawful activity. Again, as a ex-copper, he would have been more than aware of this, despite his mock incredulity to the press.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 28th January 2019 at 03:09 AM.
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Old 28th January 2019, 03:10 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Not unless it shows up on an enhanced DBS check, which would only be needed for a very limited range of jobs.
Unless there is more to the story it wouldn't show up on an enhanced DBS.

It's just the “intelligence“ side of policing. In other words say next week there is a trans person attacked in the street in the town the bloke is from, the police would have a record of this allegation, they can use this type of information to decide where to look.

I've always been rather unsettled about the police keeping gossip, hearsay and the like on “record", it has certainly in the past focused police investigations in the wrong direction. But then again we need the police to have “intelligence" as part of what we expect them to do.

At least the safeguards are much stronger these days, police officers and support staff can no longer pull up information on a mate or enemy without it being recorded and a reason being given.

Still don't like it!
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Old 28th January 2019, 03:19 AM   #51
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There is a quote in several reports of this from apparently the police officer.

“Although none of the tweets were criminal, I said to Mr. Miller that the limerick is the kind of thing that upsets the transgender community. I warned him that if it escalates we will have to take further action.”

Doesn't seem anything wrong with that.

And I don't see how it is any more chillingly Orwellian than say someone reported for having a noisy party, the police attend and say "you are Ok at the moment but you are upsetting your neighbours and if the noise escalates we will have to take further action “
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Old 28th January 2019, 03:26 AM   #52
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As usual, more local (relatively) reporting has more pertinent detail.

Hull Daily Mail:

"Harry Miller says officers spoke to him for half an hour on the phone about his way of "thinking" after re-tweeting a limerick on social media which was deemed to be derogatory against the transgender community...

The limerick included the lines: "Your breasts are made of silicone, your vagina goes nowhere."

He spoke out about the probe on his own Twitter page and said: "Cop said he was in possession of 30 tweets by me. I asked if any contained criminal material. He said...No..."

So re-tweeting an offensive limerick, plus at least 29 other suspect Tweets. Clearly not just a one-off casual remark, then.

The Spectator - being The Spectator - has printed the whole poem/limerick.

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Old 28th January 2019, 03:27 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
No. There is no public access to such records, police have always (well for decades and decades) recorded such hearsay the only difference is that they now have a classification for "hate" reports, just like they have a classification for claims of domestic violence. This type of information is not used in criminal checks for employment.
You are wrong, then you are wrong again. A full disclosure, necessary for many jobs, will include the record of this incident. Perhaps even a basic check, but certainly a full disclosure. This will be made available to the potential employer.
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Old 28th January 2019, 03:38 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
You claimed: "Police should investigate crime."

Police investigate actual crimes, suspected or claimed crimes, and events that may or may not be crimes all the time. Part of the investigation includes determining whether a crime was actually committed of not. So basically you said they should do exactly what they did do.
Police fail to record one in five actual crimes. When they can't be bothered (sorry, don't have the resources) to police actual crimes, do you think it's appropriate to waste time on people who have 'liked' innocuous limericks on Twitter? Of course not and nor should they, ever. When the police are in the business of moderating conversations and opinions, that's a fascist society.

Quote:
More than 800,000 - or one in five - of all crimes reported to the police each year are not being recorded by officers, a report suggests.

The problem is greatest for victims of violent crime, with a third going unrecorded. Of sexual offences, 26% are not recorded.
I see you just repeated a portion of that limerick. If I reported you to the police for hate speech they would investigate, get your records, phone you up and record your name against a hate incident in their database. Is that acceptable to you?
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Old 28th January 2019, 03:54 AM   #55
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This isn't thought crime. Somewhat in the manner of free speech in the USA you can say or think what you like among your own circle of contacts however bigoted or racist you want to be. If you put that bigotry, racism or violent tendencies out there in a public forum then you can expect some kind of feedback. This may include people complaining about you to the authorities or regulatory bodies. Mr Miller seems to have been given a heads up that his twitter comments could cause him difficulties in the future. Seems quite a decent approach by the police, maybe even to be commended as it is not too heavy handed. But then again I don't see conspiracies or deep state everywhere I look. And these days your online behaviour in social media and the like are taken into account by current and prospective employers never mind the authorities. Where I work we have a policy about how you represent yourself on social media because that can reflect on them as my employers. No police involvement required.
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Old 28th January 2019, 03:55 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
You are wrong, then you are wrong again. A full disclosure, necessary for many jobs, will include the record of this incident. Perhaps even a basic check, but certainly a full disclosure. This will be made available to the potential employer.
UK Government: Check someone's criminal record as an employer:

"Types of check

You can request:
•a basic check, which shows unspent convictions and conditional cautions
•a standard check, which shows spent and unspent convictions, cautions, reprimands and final warnings
•an enhanced check, which shows the same as a standard check plus any information held by local police that’s considered relevant to the role
•an enhanced check with barred lists, which shows the same as an enhanced check plus whether the applicant is on the list of people barred from doing the role"

If Miller had received a reprimand or a final waning, as an ex-copper one would expect him to understand, and to have mentioned if either was the case. Since he didn't, we can safely assume that neither applied. That suggests it would only show up in an enhanced check, if "considered relevant to the role."
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Old 28th January 2019, 04:04 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Police fail to record one in five actual crimes. When they can't be bothered (sorry, don't have the resources) to police actual crimes, do you think it's appropriate to waste time on people who have 'liked' innocuous limericks on Twitter? Of course not and nor should they, ever. When the police are in the business of moderating conversations and opinions, that's a fascist society.
You're comparing applies with oranges, and you know it. Some forces do not investigate certain crimes where there is little or no chance of identifying the culprit. In this case, the latter did not apply.

Quote:
I see you just repeated a portion of that limerick. If I reported you to the police for hate speech they would investigate, get your records, phone you up and record your name against a hate incident in their database. Is that acceptable to you?
Go ahead. I'll point out to them that I was quoting from identified published media sources for the purposes of illustrating the nature of the incident, that your motives for such reporting are clearly malicious, and hopefully they'll do you for wasting police time.

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Old 28th January 2019, 04:21 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
That suggests it would only show up in an enhanced check, if "considered relevant to the role."
Yes. What is pretty much what I said. So if he ever applies for a role the requires an enhanced check, and contact with the public (the public including LGBT people) then the information would be deemed relevant.

Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
You're comparing applies with oranges, and you know it. Some forces do not investigate certain crimes where there is little or no chance of identifying the culprit. In this case, the latter did not apply.
How can they gauge the chance of identifying the culprit without investigation? But no, you're actually correct. The police ignore serious crime because it's much easier to meet their targets by monitoring posts on Facebook; after all, the name is right there on the screen and they don't even have to get off their arses to do the investigation.

Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Go ahead. I'll point out to them that I was quoting from identified published media sources for the purposes of illustrating the nature of the incident, that your motives for such reporting are clearly malicious, and hopefully they'll do you for wasting police time.
You really don't get it, do you? If I report something you did, said or wrote as a hate incident then that's what it is. It doesn't matter a damn where you quoted it from, what your intentions were, what you believe my motivations to be, if I report that as a hate communication then that's what it is, in law.
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Old 28th January 2019, 04:40 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Yes. What is pretty much what I said. So if he ever applies for a role the requires an enhanced check, and contact with the public (the public including LGBT people) then the information would be deemed relevant.
You saying it would be doesn't make it so. People don't need a CRB check just because they have "contact with the public." If Miller wanted to coach a under-15 boys football teams, I doubt the information would be relevant. An ex-copper, one would expect him to not be so naďve.

Quote:
How can they gauge the chance of identifying the culprit without investigation? But no, you're actually correct. The police ignore serious crime because it's much easier to meet their targets by monitoring posts on Facebook; after all, the name is right there on the screen and they don't even have to get off their arses to do the investigation.
Except this did not come to light because of police "monitoring," but because someone reported it. It was also dealt with in a single telephone call, and until that happened, the investigating officer didn't know what they were dealing with beyond someone who had racked 30 apparently similar tweets.

Quote:
You really don't get it, do you? If I report something you did, said or wrote as a hate incident then that's what it is. It doesn't matter a damn where you quoted it from, what your intentions were, what you believe my motivations to be, if I report that as a hate communication then that's what it is, in law.
You clearly don't get that you can't plausibly claim to believe that you personally think I was "motivated by prejudice or hate" in quoting published media sources. The game you are trying to play is plainly visible right here. But feel free to go ahead and try to prove otherwise.

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Old 28th January 2019, 04:58 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
You saying it would be doesn't make it so. People don't need a CRB check just because they have "contact with the public." If Miller wanted to coach a under-15 boys football teams, I doubt the information would be relevant.
It absolutely would be. 'Evidence' of anti-LGBT sentiment for a position working with children? Even if the person whose role it is to make the decision believes it's equivocal, no way would they risk omitting information that might possibly be of interest, because if there's an issue further down the line, that's their job gone.

Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Except this did not come to light because of police "monitoring," but because someone reported it. It was also dealt with in a single telephone call, and until that happened, the investigating officer didn't know what they were dealing with beyond someone who had racked 30 apparently similar tweets.
The number of tweets is irrelevant. None were illegal so they were simply his opinion. If you restate your opinion 30 times it might become boring but it shouldn't make it worthy of police investigation and recording.

And of course he knew what he was dealing with. I'm not criticising the officer, they are compelled to behave in this fascist manner, but in a sane world the cop would either say, "Look, we don't have time to investigate people posting poems just because you find them offensive", or, "OK, we've checked it out, it isn't illegal, so our involvement is done."

Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
You clearly don't get that you can't plausibly claim to believe that you personally think I was "motivated by prejudice or hate" in quoting those two media sources.
Christ alive, what is confusing you here?

A hate incident is any non-crime perceived by the victim or any other person, as being motivated by prejudice or hate

Point out where you have a veto that overrides the opinion of 'the victim or any other person', because I'm not seeing it.

Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
But feel free to go ahead and try to prove otherwise.
Just done it.
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Old 28th January 2019, 05:21 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Christ alive, what is confusing you here?
You're the one who is confused. As usual.

Quote:
A hate incident is any non-crime perceived by the victim or any other person, as being motivated by prejudice or hate

Point out where you have a veto that overrides the opinion of 'the victim or any other person', because I'm not seeing it.
You're the "any other person" here, and your comments here clearly show that you perceive no such thing. You can't claim to be offended by something quoted from a newspaper that - in the very same discussion - you have claimed is not worthy of police investigation.

Quote:
Just done it.
Sure you have.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 28th January 2019 at 05:23 AM.
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Old 28th January 2019, 05:26 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
You're the "any other person" here, and your comments here clearly show that you perceive no such thing.
My subsequent comments, yes. Don't try and score that weak point. I asked how you'd feel if I had reported your comments as a hate incident, and how you'd feel about the fact that your name would be recorded against a hate incident by the police. Obviously I had to write that to communicate to you so don't pretend that invalidates my point.

Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
You can't claim to be offended by something quoted from a newspaper that - in the very same discussion - you have claimed is not worthy of police investigation.
I can't hear you from the bottom of that hole you're digging.
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Old 28th January 2019, 05:29 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
It absolutely would be. 'Evidence' of anti-LGBT sentiment for a position working with children? Even if the person whose role it is to make the decision believes it's equivocal, no way would they risk omitting information that might possibly be of interest, because if there's an issue further down the line, that's their job gone.
It is not evidence. It would simply be an allegation. Information concerning allegations is not passed during DRB checks. the Allegation would never leave the police record system unless it is followed by a conviction.

Quote:
The number of tweets is irrelevant. None were illegal so they were simply his opinion. If you restate your opinion 30 times it might become boring but it shouldn't make it worthy of police investigation and recording.
Potential crimes should be investigated and recorded. If there is no prosecution nothing will be shared

Quote:
And of course he knew what he was dealing with. I'm not criticising the officer, they are compelled to behave in this fascist manner, but in a sane world the cop would either say, "Look, we don't have time to investigate people posting poems just because you find them offensive", or, "OK, we've checked it out, it isn't illegal, so our involvement is done."
Investigating potential crimes is not fascist.
The police can not say "Look, we don't have time to investigate people posting poems just because you find them offensive" without investigating what was posted to see if it was potentially illegal.
I am fairly sure it is not standard practice to involve informants of the progress of investigations. I am surprised you support such a practice.

Quote:
Christ alive, what is confusing you here?

A hate incident is any non-crime perceived by the victim or any other person, as being motivated by prejudice or hate

Point out where you have a veto that overrides the opinion of 'the victim or any other person', because I'm not seeing it.
A hate 'incident' is a reported potential crime. It does not mean there is a crime. It does not mean there will be in investigation and it does not mean that the incident will ever be aired outside the police normal record systems

Last edited by Lothian; 28th January 2019 at 05:32 AM. Reason: lots a bit of my reply
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Old 28th January 2019, 05:37 AM   #64
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Nope you are wrong. This type of reporting is not what is included in enhanced checks etc.
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Old 28th January 2019, 05:40 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
It is not evidence as it would find out that there was an allegation.
It is evidence, and it would be recorded and issued. What you mean is that it's not evidence of a crime, which is irrelevant.

Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
Potential crimes should be investigated and recorded. If there is no prosecution nothing will be shared
Wrong, as I've just explained.

Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
Investigating potential crimes is not fascist.
It is if things deemed 'potential crimes' are simply opinions that others find offensive.

Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
The police can not say "Look, we don't have time to investigate people posting poems just because you find them offensive" without investigating what was posted to see if it was potentially illegal.
Yes they could. People are routinely turned away by the police on the grounds, "What do you want us to do about it?" A neighbour once had a stone thrown at his car. He went to the cops, with the evidence (the car), and they said literally those words. And if you'd read the link I posted you'll see this is commonplace, with one of five alleged crimes not being investigated - and I'm talking crimes - violence, sexual assault, robbery, burglary, criminal damage - not some bloke 'liking' an innocuous limerick.

Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
I am fairly sure it is not standard practice to involve informants of the progress of investigations. I am surprised you support such a practice.
It is standard practice, it always has been.

Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
A hate 'incident' is a reported potential crime.
No it is not.

Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
It does not mean there is a crime. It does not mean there will be in investigation and it does not mean that the incident will ever be aired outside the police normal record systems
And yet we know it can be, and often is.
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Old 28th January 2019, 05:42 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Nope you are wrong. This type of reporting is not what is included in enhanced checks etc.
Yes it is.
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Old 28th January 2019, 05:51 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
My subsequent comments, yes. Don't try and score that weak point. I asked how you'd feel if I had reported your comments as a hate incident, and how you'd feel about the fact that your name would be recorded against a hate incident by the police. Obviously I had to write that to communicate to you so don't pretend that invalidates my point.
Nope, earlier comments like this one:

Originally Posted by baron View Post
It's not policing, that's the point. Police should investigate crime, and prevent crime where necessary. They shouldn't be farting around ringing up people who have been reported to them by those who can't bear to see someone expressing a different opinion, and they certainly shouldn't then formally report the event as a hate incident.
Your opinions and motivation are perfectly clear.

Quote:
I can't hear you from the bottom of that hole you're digging.
Heavy irony.
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Old 28th January 2019, 06:04 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
It is evidence, and it would be recorded and issued. What you mean is that it's not evidence of a crime, which is irrelevant.
If I go to the police and say Baron threw a brick threw my window. it would be recorded. My allegation is not evidence that you threw the brick. Note my original post got mangled. Look back to see the edit


Quote:
Wrong, as I've just explained.
Nope


Quote:
It is if things deemed 'potential crimes' are simply opinions that others find offensive.
No potential crimes need to be allegations of things that are crimes, Threatening and intimidating behavior is a crime. Similarly the UK law limits what can be written. therefore allegations of breaches of that law are potential crimes,.

Quote:

Yes they could. People are routinely turned away by the police on the grounds, "What do you want us to do about it?" A neighbour once had a stone thrown at his car. He went to the cops, with the evidence (the car), and they said literally those words. And if you'd read the link I posted you'll see this is commonplace, with one of five alleged crimes not being investigated - and I'm talking crimes - violence, sexual assault, robbery, burglary, criminal damage - not some bloke 'liking' an innocuous limerick.
The police should note any crime. While they make an offhand comment that a crime is probably to low to get resource put to it, you would not get an official response that the police do not care about a crime or that they have no interest in investigating violence, sexual assault, robbery, burglary or criminal damage.

Quote:

It is standard practice, it always has been.
No it is not. If I say that I think you are guilty of terrorism I would not get updates on the progress of the police investigation into you investigation. Even victims get limited information about investigations. There are obvious reasons for this. I would welcome any evidence that informing on a potential crime allows you access to the police investigation.


Quote:
No it is not.
Oh yes it is /pantomime



Quote:
And yet we know it can be, and often is.
You will have lots of examples then.
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Old 28th January 2019, 06:15 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Yes it is.
No it really isn't. Intelligence is not part of any report for any type of check that are required for a job.
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Old 28th January 2019, 07:09 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
If I go to the police and say Baron threw a brick threw my window. it would be recorded.
It might be, it might not be. If it was then it wouldn't be recorded against my record.

Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
No potential crimes need to be allegations of things that are crimes, Threatening and intimidating behavior is a crime. Similarly the UK law limits what can be written. therefore allegations of breaches of that law are potential crimes,.
Only if they are reported as such. If the report contains no element that could be criminal, why investigate?

Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
The police should note any crime. While they make an offhand comment that a crime is probably to low to get resource put to it, you would not get an official response that the police do not care about a crime or that they have no interest in investigating violence, sexual assault, robbery, burglary or criminal damage.
Yes, it happens all the time. Police forces have issued formal statements saying that certain crimes will not be investigated (I don't have time to source them but I will later if you dispute it). Yet they always have time for 'hate' incidents.

Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
No it is not. If I say that I think you are guilty of terrorism I would not get updates on the progress of the police investigation into you investigation. Even victims get limited information about investigations. There are obvious reasons for this. I would welcome any evidence that informing on a potential crime allows you access to the police investigation.
Don't change the goalposts. The issue is, being kept informed. A few years back I reported a burglary (someone else's house). I received a letter updating me on progress, followed by a visit from CID to update me (they had previously come to take a statement), followed by two letters detailing the court proceedings and results. It is standard practice.

Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
You will have lots of examples then.
Like the one I posted, maybe?

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
No it really isn't. Intelligence is not part of any report for any type of check that are required for a job.
Nonsense, you are making it up. Soft intelligence can certainly form part of full disclosure. And this is not even soft intelligence, it's a formal record against your name. I don't know where you get your ideas from.
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Old 28th January 2019, 07:41 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
It might be, it might not be. If it was then it wouldn't be recorded against my record.

Only if they are reported as such. If the report contains no element that could be criminal, why investigate?



Yes, it happens all the time. Police forces have issued formal statements saying that certain crimes will not be investigated (I don't have time to source them but I will later if you dispute it). Yet they always have time for 'hate' incidents.

Don't change the goalposts. The issue is, being kept informed. A few years back I reported a burglary (someone else's house). I received a letter updating me on progress, followed by a visit from CID to update me (they had previously come to take a statement), followed by two letters detailing the court proceedings and results. It is standard practice.

Like the one I posted, maybe?


Nonsense, you are making it up. Soft intelligence can certainly form part of full disclosure. And this is not even soft intelligence, it's a formal record against your name. I don't know where you get your ideas from.
Incitement of hate is a crime therefore it should be investigated.

This is from the DRB website
Quote:

Information disclosed on a basic certificate
A basic check will contain details of convictions and conditional cautions considered to be unspent under the terms if the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974.

The Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 aims to give those with convictions or cautions the chance - in certain circumstances - to wipe the slate clean and start afresh.

Under the Act, eligible convictions or cautions become ‘spent’ after a specified period of time known as the ‘rehabilitation period’, the length of which varies depending on how the individual was dealt with.

You can refer to the table showing rehabilitation periods attach.
You have not provided examples or evidence that a suggestion to the police that someone may have committed a crime, but which was not followed up with a conviction, finds its way into the information the police give out about an individual. This seems to be at the heart of your gripes so you should really check your facts.
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Old 28th January 2019, 09:44 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
Incitement of hate is a crime therefore it should be investigated.
We're not talking about hate crimes right now, the topic is hate incidents.

Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
This is from the DRB website You have not provided examples or evidence that a suggestion to the police that someone may have committed a crime, but which was not followed up with a conviction, finds its way into the information the police give out about an individual. This seems to be at the heart of your gripes so you should really check your facts.
It's not at the heart of anything, but yet again you have misrepresented the facts. First, the topic is not about committing crime. That's the whole point.

Second, soft intelligence is routinely used in full disclosure, despite the protestation of people who are reflexively post the opposite of what I write.

Quote:
DBS checks, also known as disclosures, may also include soft intelligence held by the police. This information is not always contained within the Police National Computer (PNC). For example, a person may not have been convicted of a particular offence, but a local police force may have intelligence which should be disclosed as it may affect the suitability of a person for a particular job.
Soft intelligence. This can even include information held by the police that the person is totally unaware of, and has never been communicated to him or her.

https://cbscreening.co.uk/news/post/...und-screening/
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Old 28th January 2019, 12:14 PM   #73
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England is a **** hole

Edited by Agatha:  Edited for rule 10. Please remember to type curse words out in full and allow the autocensor to work in the public sections of the forum.
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Old 28th January 2019, 12:28 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
We're not talking about hate crimes right now, the topic is hate incidents.



It's not at the heart of anything, but yet again you have misrepresented the facts. First, the topic is not about committing crime. That's the whole point.

Second, soft intelligence is routinely used in full disclosure, despite the protestation of people who are reflexively post the opposite of what I write.



Soft intelligence. This can even include information held by the police that the person is totally unaware of, and has never been communicated to him or her.

https://cbscreening.co.uk/news/post/...und-screening/
Looks like I was wrong and you are right. I thought Liberty had a court ruling to limit what intelligence the police can disclose but for the life of me I can't find any such case.
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Old 28th January 2019, 12:41 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Looks like I was wrong and you are right. I thought Liberty had a court ruling to limit what intelligence the police can disclose but for the life of me I can't find any such case.
I've not heard of any limit. The police can 'disclose' information from the back of a yellow sticky if they like, it doesn't even need to be formally recorded. To an extent the disclosure of non-crime intelligence is understandable, but when you combine it with these crazy hate crime / hate incident laws, and situations where you can be reported by a third party and never even know about it, it's distinctly authoritarian and IMO an infringement on human rights.
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Old 29th January 2019, 03:35 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
"Harry Miller says officers spoke to him for half an hour on the phone
Who is willing to bet the entire conversation would have lasted about 2 minutes if Mr Miller hadn't dragged it out for another 28?

He sounds like a prize plonker.
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Old 29th January 2019, 04:18 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Who is willing to bet the entire conversation would have lasted about 2 minutes if Mr Miller hadn't dragged it out for another 28?

He sounds like a prize plonker.
Huh? If I was accused of hate speech and was told, as reported, that my thinking was suspect, there is no way in the world I would say “fair cop, sorry gov”. I would argue the toss for however long it took. Would you simply accept an allegation you believed to be untrue?

I must be a prize plonker too. Or simply someone standing up for my rights. Take your pick.
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Old 29th January 2019, 04:31 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Huh? If I was accused of hate speech and was told, as reported, that my thinking was suspect, there is no way in the world I would say “fair cop, sorry gov”. I would argue the toss for however long it took. Would you simply accept an allegation you believed to be untrue?

I must be a prize plonker too. Or simply someone standing up for my rights. Take your pick.
Argue the toss over what? What do you think is going to change?

Yes, whenever the police talk to me I generally agree with them and go about my business. Because arguing with the police doesn't change anything and only escalates the matter.

My point though is that the article was written to make it sound like the police gave him a dressing down for half an hour when I am willing to bet that wasn't the case.

You don't have to accept the allegation, you can disagree with the allegation and still agree with the officer without arguing for half an hour.

Have I committed a crime? No
Will there be any charges? No
I disagree with the allegation, I don't think I did anything wrong but I will be careful in future officer. Thanks for your time.

But he has gone off on one hasn't he?
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Old 29th January 2019, 04:51 AM   #79
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Yeah, these pesky individuals who protest at the erosion of free speech and removal of fundamental liberties. Who do they think they are? They should keep their mouths shut in the interests of fascism.
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Old 29th January 2019, 06:50 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Argue the toss over what? What do you think is going to change?

Yes, whenever the police talk to me I generally agree with them and go about my business. Because arguing with the police doesn't change anything and only escalates the matter.

My point though is that the article was written to make it sound like the police gave him a dressing down for half an hour when I am willing to bet that wasn't the case.

You don't have to accept the allegation, you can disagree with the allegation and still agree with the officer without arguing for half an hour.

Have I committed a crime? No
Will there be any charges? No
I disagree with the allegation, I don't think I did anything wrong but I will be careful in future officer. Thanks for your time.

But he has gone off on one hasn't he?
I suspect him being an ex-copper himself had a lot to do with it.
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