Resolved: Jeremy Clarkson still a **** - Page 3

3point14 · 1st February 2019, 05:29 AM

Originally Posted by baron

That's because Clarkson and his mates are at the top of their game. They're very good at what they do. Like 'Never Mind the Buzzcocks' and 'Have I Got News for You'; people love the spontaneity, but these are rehearsed too. They're given the questions and topics before-hand, they sit around discussing their answers, work up their jokes, practice their interactions, etc. and whilst they don't learn a physical script it's the same thing. There are a lot of edits but what makes it to the screen is pre-planned and rarely off-the-cuff. When I say nothing is left to chance I don't mean every word is memorised, more that everybody knows exactly what the others will say, and every action - especially true in the case of TG - is planned, scrutinised, approved and choreographed. Hammond doesn't get set foot in that rocket propelled bathtub without knowing exactly which bush it will end up in.

Again, all decent speculation. I was just looking for some actual proof.

Childlike Empress · 1st February 2019, 05:32 AM

Originally Posted by baron

Hammond doesn't get set foot in that rocket propelled bathtub without knowing exactly which bush it will end up in.

Brave little fella then...

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I AGREE

baron · 1st February 2019, 05:34 AM

Originally Posted by 3point14

Again, all decent speculation. I was just looking for some actual proof.

What kind of proof are you after?

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress

Brave little fella then...

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I AGREE

Do you think that was intentional or... a mistake?

3point14 · 1st February 2019, 05:34 AM

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress

Brave little fella then...

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I AGREE

That's some might scripting.

Not as good as the rocket car though, that must have taken some planning.

3point14 · 1st February 2019, 05:54 AM

Originally Posted by baron

What kind of proof are you after?

Do you think that was intentional or... a mistake?

One of the three muppets saying 'yeah, it's all scripted', a newspaper article with 'I was the GT secret scriptwriter', out-takes where there's a script present and people are actually learning their lines.

I don't actually think you're wrong, (although I think 'scripted' covers a really, really wide scope of stuff from roughly outlined to scripted word for word and blocked to the inch.) I just wondered if there'd been any actual revelation in the press or similar.

Edit: I also didn't intend to sound quite as grumpy as I seem to have done. Sorry about that.

baron · 1st February 2019, 06:07 AM

Originally Posted by 3point14

One of the three muppets saying 'yeah, it's all scripted', a newspaper article with 'I was the GT secret scriptwriter', out-takes where there's a script present and people are actually learning their lines.

I don't actually think you're wrong, (although I think 'scripted' covers a really, really wide scope of stuff from roughly outlined to scripted word for word and blocked to the inch.) I just wondered if there'd been any actual revelation in the press or similar.

There might be something like that but I'd have to check. Public revelations are unlikely because such things are always covered by NDAs or similar contractual agreements. I'm working under one right now from the entertainment industry and they are very stringent, and breaches are taken seriously. Aside from the info I got from my ex partner, I do recall a longer account of someone who worked with Derren Brown spilling the beans on his show; again, fully scripted and everything contractually controlled; that is to say, these 'independent' participants sign up-front clauses saying they will do as instructed and will not discuss the mechanics of the show with anybody outside of the production crew. That was unverifiable, for obvious reasons, but it fits in with what I've heard (and in the case of Brown, what is blatantly obvious).

Originally Posted by 3point14

Edit: I also didn't intend to sound quite as grumpy as I seem to have done. Sorry about that.

"That's my secret, Cap, I'm always... grumpy."

Bouncing Bettys · 1st February 2019, 10:04 AM

People still get offended by Clarkson/Hammond/May after all these years?

Jeeps are very popular in my neck of the woods and a good chunk of them are considered Pavement Princesses, as they have fancy wheels which their owners are too afraid to scratch. The ones that do actually take them offroad, seem to break down and need rescue often. - a Suzuki 4x4 owner

lobosrul5 · 1st February 2019, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by baron

There might be something like that but I'd have to check. Public revelations are unlikely because such things are always covered by NDAs or similar contractual agreements. I'm working under one right now from the entertainment industry and they are very stringent, and breaches are taken seriously. Aside from the info I got from my ex partner, I do recall a longer account of someone who worked with Derren Brown spilling the beans on his show; again, fully scripted and everything contractually controlled; that is to say, these 'independent' participants sign up-front clauses saying they will do as instructed and will not discuss the mechanics of the show with anybody outside of the production crew. That was unverifiable, for obvious reasons, but it fits in with what I've heard (and in the case of Brown, what is blatantly obvious).

"That's my secret, Cap, I'm always... grumpy."

The NDA for Top Gear may have become null and void after the Trio + Wilman's contracts were canceled. I think the show is roughly 90% planned out, but generally speaking there is no script written out. Sometimes things don't go as planned and they roll with it though. In Columbia they stopped for a day and modded their vehicles... anyone who thinks that wasn't planned is pretty dumb. Their production co certainly made arrangements to have all that stuff ready so they could be bolted on... ie the lift for Clarkson's Jeep. The lightning rolling in, and the hail storm on the mountain, that wasn't planned. Finding a dead and rotting Condor on the way back, I kinda doubt that was planned.

baron · 1st February 2019, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

The NDA for Top Gear may have become null and void after the Trio + Wilman's contracts were canceled. I think the show is roughly 90% planned out, but generally speaking there is no script written out. Sometimes things don't go as planned and they roll with it though. In Columbia they stopped for a day and modded their vehicles... anyone who thinks that wasn't planned is pretty dumb. Their production co certainly made arrangements to have all that stuff ready so they could be bolted on... ie the lift for Clarkson's Jeep. The lightning rolling in, and the hail storm on the mountain, that wasn't planned. Finding a dead and rotting Condor on the way back, I kinda doubt that was planned.

That's pretty much as I see it. As I said, it's not a physical script, but it's a very tight framework where the mechanics and outcomes are tightly orchestrated. Sure, unexpected things happen and that's where the editing comes in. It's a bit like a stand-up show where the comedian says and does broadly the same thing every time, although an unplanned heckler or two might make it onto the DVD.

jeremyp · 1st February 2019, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by baron

I think it works fine for what it is - a sitcom. If you like that kind of thing then watch it, if not, don't. I don't, but my problem is that it transitioned from a show about cars to a sitcom as if that sort of thing is natural or desirable. There are sill people out there who don't believe every word, action and 'hilariously unplanned event' is scripted up the kazoo.

The BBC cancelled the original "show about cars" because nobody watched it. The Clarkson reboot has always been about men messing about with cars in silly ways and I'm pretty sure that the presenters and the producer were pretty honest about that fact.

If you don't like it, that's fine, you didn't have to watch it and there are plenty of other car shows that probably would cater to your taste. Personally, I wouldn't watch a show that consists mainly of reviews of run of the mill cars that I can test drive myself played straight.

Nessie · 1st February 2019, 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by 3point14

Is this supposition on your part or is there evidence?

There was an episode where Clarkson announced TG had won a best unscripted show award, which he could not go and collect, because he was too busy writing the script.

I suspect they have a good idea what they are going to say, but a lot is off the cuff.

Then they do have various catch phrases which keep on repeating, "what could possible go wrong?", "cock" when it goes wrong, and shouts of "HAMMOND!" They usually sabotage each others cars and deliberately crash into each other. They also like to build and drive over very rickety bridges.

Nessie · 1st February 2019, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by jeremyp

The BBC cancelled the original "show about cars" because nobody watched it. The Clarkson reboot has always been about men messing about with cars in silly ways and I'm pretty sure that the presenters and the producer were pretty honest about that fact.

If you don't like it, that's fine, you didn't have to watch it and there are plenty of other car shows that probably would cater to your taste. Personally, I wouldn't watch a show that consists mainly of reviews of run of the mill cars that I can test drive myself played straight.

Way back in 2004, Johnny Vaughan was one of the guests and he commented that they should make Top Gear (IIRC) "stag world, where men can roam free". He saw how it was developing and Clarkson, Hammond and May have transformed from reviewing cars, to presenting a show where some blokes get to do what many would love to do, muck about, have a laugh, do stupid things, build stuff (badly), drive cars and travel.

baron · 1st February 2019, 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by jeremyp

The BBC cancelled the original "show about cars" because nobody watched it.

You wouldn't have thought they'd take 24 years to figure that out. The fact is that their format, after two decades, began to decrease in popularity and they decided to include a bit of comedy. Like everything else on TV, they chased the ratings and ended up changing the show's entire genre. There was still, and is still, a market for car shows that aren't sitcoms.

Originally Posted by jeremyp

The Clarkson reboot has always been about men messing about with cars in silly ways and I'm pretty sure that the presenters and the producer were pretty honest about that fact.

For the first five or six years of the Clarkson era it was still primarily a factual show.

Originally Posted by jeremyp

If you don't like it, that's fine, you didn't have to watch it and there are plenty of other car shows that probably would cater to your taste. Personally, I wouldn't watch a show that consists mainly of reviews of run of the mill cars that I can test drive myself played straight.

There's no comparison. One's a car show, the other's a sitcom based around vehicles. They are intended for different audiences.

Childlike Empress · 1st February 2019, 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by Nessie

[...] a show where some blokes get to do what many would love to do, muck about, have a laugh, do stupid things, build stuff (badly), drive cars and travel.

And last but not least cash in like kings. Maybe you just found the secret why so many blokes who don't get to do that are so offended by the show.

baron · 1st February 2019, 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress

And last but not least cash in like kings. Maybe you just found the secret why so many blokes who don't get to do that are so offended by the show.

Who's offended? Not me. Like to see what's in my garage, luv?

Childlike Empress · 1st February 2019, 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by baron

Who's offended? Not me. Like to see what's in my garage, luv?

I can see what's in your soul.

baron · 1st February 2019, 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by Childlike Empress

I can see what's in your soul.

That's a no, then.

zooterkin · 1st February 2019, 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by baron

That's the thing, though, there is no 'banter'. It's a script and the trio adhere to it as closely as any actor.

As you nearly admitted later, that isn't necessarily true, I'm pretty sure that while much of it is scripted, or at least following a pre-determine outline, there are almost certainly some improvised bits that work and are kept in the broadcast version.

I'm fully aware of the artifice involved in making television, but sometimes it is as it seems. I was at the recording of the TV version of Just a Minute (admittedly primarily a radio show), and what was broadcast was pretty much what happened live; the only retakes were of intros by the presenter, and none of the panelists was working from a script. The only slight deception was that since they were recording two episodes, they moved some of the audience around at half time.

novaphile · 1st February 2019, 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by 3point14

Is this supposition on your part or is there evidence?

Tesla walked off the set after reading the script.

The script detailed how Clarkson and co. were going to lie about the Tesla breaking down and running out of battery.

Last episode I watched.

https://www.lawyer-monthly.com/2018/...-has-it-ended/

baron · 2nd February 2019, 03:45 AM

Originally Posted by zooterkin

As you nearly admitted later, that isn't necessarily true, I'm pretty sure that while much of it is scripted, or at least following a pre-determine outline, there are almost certainly some improvised bits that work and are kept in the broadcast version.

I'm fully aware of the artifice involved in making television, but sometimes it is as it seems. I was at the recording of the TV version of Just a Minute (admittedly primarily a radio show), and what was broadcast was pretty much what happened live; the only retakes were of intros by the presenter, and none of the panelists was working from a script. The only slight deception was that since they were recording two episodes, they moved some of the audience around at half time.

OK, as closely as 'some' actors. Of course, if there's no formal script people are going to adlib or improvise, my point is that these shows are not what most people think they are. Some are worse than others. I imagine there are a few shows with no scripting, I don't know, but the content of TV shows for large audiences is not left to chance, why take the risk?

Originally Posted by novaphile

Tesla walked off the set after reading the script.

The script detailed how Clarkson and co. were going to lie about the Tesla breaking down and running out of battery.

Last episode I watched.

https://www.lawyer-monthly.com/2018/...-has-it-ended/

A bit like the episodes where each of the three idiots bought a second hand car, pimped it up and drove from A to B. We are asked to believe that all the predictably hilarious incidents, breakdowns, fender benders and police stops are simply recordings of what happened along the way as opposed to carefully planned and choreographed events. And people believe it, I guess.

The Norseman · 2nd February 2019, 08:37 PM

Originally Posted by baron

Sure. Mine's a straight six.

You're a UKian; six centimeters isn't as worthy of braggadocio as you may think.

jimbob · 3rd February 2019, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by cullennz

Clarkson is a jerk, but old Will seems a bit over-sensitive

See below

The implausible deniability again - like the "slope" comment.

Just because you can think up slurs that some people can't catch, it doesn't make it right or funny.

Originally Posted by a_unique_person

They had the radio playing "It's raining men" just in case you thought there was anything ambiguous about their statement.

BTW. I hate jeeps, but just because they are **** cars.

If you are the target of the "banter", then you get to say whether it's over the line. Especially if you are part of a group that still suffers discrimination or violence.

Travis · 3rd February 2019, 03:32 PM

Last time I was in San Francisco I saw more Porsches than Jeep Wranglers.

qayak · 3rd February 2019, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by jimbob

If you are the target of the "banter", then you get to say whether it's over the line.

No. Everyone gets to decide for themselves where the line is and what crosses it.

Seismosaurus · 3rd February 2019, 04:54 PM

Originally Posted by baron

A bit like the episodes where each of the three idiots bought a second hand car, pimped it up and drove from A to B. We are asked to believe that all the predictably hilarious incidents, breakdowns, fender benders and police stops are simply recordings of what happened along the way as opposed to carefully planned and choreographed events. And people believe it, I guess.

Do they, though? I loved Top Gear under Clarkson, I like The Grand Tour a lot. I've never believed it was improvised, and never cared. The appearance of improvisation is entertaining whether genuine or not for me, and I'd think that would be true for most of the audience.

P.J. Denyer · 3rd February 2019, 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by Mark F

As I recall Will Young and Clarkson got on so well when Young did Top Gear that it became the butt of jokes later on in that series.

Yeah, but Will Young doesn't get much attention these days. Attack Clarkson and you know you're guaranteed some supporters.

P.J. Denyer · 3rd February 2019, 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by Nessie

Everyone knows what Clarkson is like, many just watch him to be offended.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...larkson-amazon

"The schoolboy sniggering of The Grand Tour is catastrophically unfunny."

So don't watch it then.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people fail to understand that Jeremy Clarkson is playing a character. Yes, it shares his name, but it's still a character.

P.J. Denyer · 3rd February 2019, 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by baron

That's because Clarkson and his mates are at the top of their game. They're very good at what they do. Like 'Never Mind the Buzzcocks' and 'Have I Got News for You'; people love the spontaneity, but these are rehearsed too. They're given the questions and topics before-hand, they sit around discussing their answers, work up their jokes, practice their interactions, etc. and whilst they don't learn a physical script it's the same thing. There are a lot of edits but what makes it to the screen is pre-planned and rarely off-the-cuff. When I say nothing is left to chance I don't mean every word is memorised, more that everybody knows exactly what the others will say, and every action - especially true in the case of TG - is planned, scrutinised, approved and choreographed. Hammond doesn't get set foot in that rocket propelled bathtub without knowing exactly which bush it will end up in.

In "Grand Tour" they address this directly in an 'unscripted' trip (to Portugal iirc), where they end up on dead end roads, can't hear the audio and set themselves incompatible goals because no-one's organising the show. I've always assumed that the challenges are planned in detail and the script roughed out (to cover the 'beats' of the conversation) and then actual dialogue improvised over several takes with the best bits edited together. There's certainly some spontaneity, bits like May throwing a rock at Clarkson's windscreen in anger after being rear ended seemed spontaneous anyway.

I admit, I'd love their jobs, and income. But at the same time I do think that for TV presenters they work quite hard and put themselves at some personal risk for the shows.

baron · 4th February 2019, 03:27 AM

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer

In "Grand Tour" they address this directly in an 'unscripted' trip (to Portugal iirc), where they end up on dead end roads, can't hear the audio and set themselves incompatible goals because no-one's organising the show. I've always assumed that the challenges are planned in detail and the script roughed out (to cover the 'beats' of the conversation) and then actual dialogue improvised over several takes with the best bits edited together. There's certainly some spontaneity, bits like May throwing a rock at Clarkson's windscreen in anger after being rear ended seemed spontaneous anyway.

I admit, I'd love their jobs, and income. But at the same time I do think that for TV presenters they work quite hard and put themselves at some personal risk for the shows.

I would have loved to do stuff like that in my 30s, not so much now. I don't think there's much risk in what they do, Hammond's accidents are just a result of him being a lunatic as opposed to anything inherent in his TV role. That said, it is risky to drive through Argentina in a car with the number plate H982 FKL, something the TG crew swore down was a coincidence - a coincidence that not one of them had actually noticed - but the entire rest of the world understood perfectly well was, you guessed it, a well thought-out and planned part of the script.

Nessie · 4th February 2019, 03:32 AM

edNo one would look at H982 FKL and instantly think of the Falkland War. At the time no evidence was presented by those who claim it was a set up/fake, that was an invented plate put onto the car for filming.

baron · 4th February 2019, 03:34 AM

Originally Posted by Nessie

edNo one would look at H982 FKL and instantly think of the Falkland War.

That's funny.

Wait... you're serious? Impossible, sorry.

Eddie Dane · 4th February 2019, 06:51 AM

Here in the Netherlands hairdressers often drive Suzuki jeeps, black guys drive red Honda Civics, dentists drive Saab and Volvo etc etc.

Can we now longer point those patterns out in a humorous way?

Can I still say Lesbians drive Subaru's? (OK, that happened because Subaru's marketing specifically targeted them as a demographic)

Darat · 4th February 2019, 07:40 AM

Originally Posted by Bouncing Bettys

People still get offended by Clarkson/Hammond/May after all these years?

Jeeps are very popular in my neck of the woods and a good chunk of them are considered Pavement Princesses, as they have fancy wheels which their owners are too afraid to scratch. The ones that do actually take them offroad, seem to break down and need rescue often. - a Suzuki 4x4 owner

I think you meant “publicists still trying to get media attention for Clarkson/Hammond/May after all these years? “

lobosrul5 · 4th February 2019, 04:50 PM

Originally Posted by Nessie

edNo one would look at H982 FKL and instantly think of the Falkland War. At the time no evidence was presented by those who claim it was a set up/fake, that was an invented plate put onto the car for filming.

There is actual, rather compelling evidence, that it wasn't a setup.

https://vehicleenquiry.service.gov.uk/ViewVehicle

Pop in the plate #, answer yes and you get:

"Date of first registration: May 1991".

So it was the actual plate, registered since 1991, on the type of car that they often take on road trips. To suggest that they went around searching the UK for plates that might, kind of, allude to the Falklands War, and found one on an old Porsche, is ludicrous to say the least.

theprestige · 4th February 2019, 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by Seismosaurus

Do they, though? I loved Top Gear under Clarkson, I like The Grand Tour a lot. I've never believed it was improvised, and never cared. The appearance of improvisation is entertaining whether genuine or not for me, and I'd think that would be true for most of the audience.

The question is, is it kayfabe, or is it just fake?

Gilbert Syndrome · 5th February 2019, 07:28 AM

Being surprised that Clarkson and the rest of his beyond-mid-life-crisis suffering gang of schoolboys are bellends is like being surprised that Boris Johnson is a bit of a soft arsed ********.

Stewart Lee said it best:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7CnMQ4L9Pc

Nessie · 5th February 2019, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by lobosrul5

There is actual, rather compelling evidence, that it wasn't a setup.

https://vehicleenquiry.service.gov.uk/ViewVehicle

Pop in the plate #, answer yes and you get:

"Date of first registration: May 1991".

So it was the actual plate, registered since 1991, on the type of car that they often take on road trips. To suggest that they went around searching the UK for plates that might, kind of, allude to the Falklands War, and found one on an old Porsche, is ludicrous to say the least.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring...buying-it.html

"Mr Waring (seller of the Porsche) said the unnamed BBC employee who purchased the car in August was specifically looking for a manual 928 and would not have had much choice in the market place."

The article reveals TG knew what the reg was when they bought the car, but of course they would since they have bought it and got the documentation required for the purchase and to export it. That does not mean anyone twigged to the reg number's numbers and letter sequence.

" She (TG representative) subsequently admitted that they had received a copy of the vehicle’s registration document before buying it but claimed it “would not have been read in any minute detail” and that it was still bought "blind". “Top Gear buys a huge number of cars,” she said. “They just sign, they don’t read it in any great detail."

The article also points out TG has another reg in the car "BE11 END". If they really were worried about the FKL plate, then they would not be replacing it with something daft like that.

P.J. Denyer · 5th February 2019, 04:19 PM

Originally Posted by Nessie

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring...buying-it.html

"Mr Waring (seller of the Porsche) said the unnamed BBC employee who purchased the car in August was specifically looking for a manual 928 and would not have had much choice in the market place."

The article reveals TG knew what the reg was when they bought the car, but of course they would since they have bought it and got the documentation required for the purchase and to export it. That does not mean anyone twigged to the reg number's numbers and letter sequence.

" She (TG representative) subsequently admitted that they had received a copy of the vehicle’s registration document before buying it but claimed it “would not have been read in any minute detail” and that it was still bought "blind". “Top Gear buys a huge number of cars,” she said. “They just sign, they don’t read it in any great detail."

The article also points out TG has another reg in the car "BE11 END". If they really were worried about the FKL plate, then they would not be replacing it with something daft like that.

The BE11 END plate was claimed in a couple of articles at the time to be a reference to the 'end' of the Belgrano, as opposed to the insult they often throw at Clarkson. The other two number plates were also claimed, by some, to have been chosen deliberately - because they were 'close' to the casualties on both sides or some such.

Archie Gemmill Goal · 6th February 2019, 04:44 AM

Originally Posted by 3point14

One of the three muppets saying 'yeah, it's all scripted', a newspaper article with 'I was the GT secret scriptwriter', out-takes where there's a script present and people are actually learning their lines.

I don't actually think you're wrong, (although I think 'scripted' covers a really, really wide scope of stuff from roughly outlined to scripted word for word and blocked to the inch.) I just wondered if there'd been any actual revelation in the press or similar.

Edit: I also didn't intend to sound quite as grumpy as I seem to have done. Sorry about that.

I think that the scriptwriters are not really a secret... are they?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p036fbwd

fagin · 6th February 2019, 05:23 AM

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal

I think that the scriptwriters are not really a secret... are they?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p036fbwd

Richard Porter also wrote a few books about TG.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Richard-Por...762&sr=8-2-ent

And also has a web page, which can be quite funny.

https://sniffpetrol.com/

1st February 2019, 05:29 AM	#81
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 16,853	Originally Posted by baron That's because Clarkson and his mates are at the top of their game. They're very good at what they do. Like 'Never Mind the Buzzcocks' and 'Have I Got News for You'; people love the spontaneity, but these are rehearsed too. They're given the questions and topics before-hand, they sit around discussing their answers, work up their jokes, practice their interactions, etc. and whilst they don't learn a physical script it's the same thing. There are a lot of edits but what makes it to the screen is pre-planned and rarely off-the-cuff. When I say nothing is left to chance I don't mean every word is memorised, more that everybody knows exactly what the others will say, and every action - especially true in the case of TG - is planned, scrutinised, approved and choreographed. Hammond doesn't get set foot in that rocket propelled bathtub without knowing exactly which bush it will end up in. Again, all decent speculation. I was just looking for some actual proof.
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 16,853	__________________ Up the River!

1st February 2019, 05:54 AM	#85
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 16,853	Originally Posted by baron What kind of proof are you after? Do you think that was intentional or... a mistake? One of the three muppets saying 'yeah, it's all scripted', a newspaper article with 'I was the GT secret scriptwriter', out-takes where there's a script present and people are actually learning their lines. I don't actually think you're wrong, (although I think 'scripted' covers a really, really wide scope of stuff from roughly outlined to scripted word for word and blocked to the inch.) I just wondered if there'd been any actual revelation in the press or similar. Edit: I also didn't intend to sound quite as grumpy as I seem to have done. Sorry about that.
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 16,853	__________________ Up the River! Last edited by 3point14; 1st February 2019 at 05:57 AM.

1st February 2019, 06:07 AM	#86
baron Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 8,169	Originally Posted by 3point14 One of the three muppets saying 'yeah, it's all scripted', a newspaper article with 'I was the GT secret scriptwriter', out-takes where there's a script present and people are actually learning their lines. I don't actually think you're wrong, (although I think 'scripted' covers a really, really wide scope of stuff from roughly outlined to scripted word for word and blocked to the inch.) I just wondered if there'd been any actual revelation in the press or similar. There might be something like that but I'd have to check. Public revelations are unlikely because such things are always covered by NDAs or similar contractual agreements. I'm working under one right now from the entertainment industry and they are very stringent, and breaches are taken seriously. Aside from the info I got from my ex partner, I do recall a longer account of someone who worked with Derren Brown spilling the beans on his show; again, fully scripted and everything contractually controlled; that is to say, these 'independent' participants sign up-front clauses saying they will do as instructed and will not discuss the mechanics of the show with anybody outside of the production crew. That was unverifiable, for obvious reasons, but it fits in with what I've heard (and in the case of Brown, what is blatantly obvious). Originally Posted by 3point14 Edit: I also didn't intend to sound quite as grumpy as I seem to have done. Sorry about that. "That's my secret, Cap, I'm always... grumpy."
baron Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 8,169	__________________ "I don't think I'm getting the most out of my computer. I turn it on... and use it as a light." - Harry Hill Last edited by baron; 1st February 2019 at 06:08 AM.

1st February 2019, 10:04 AM	#87
Bouncing Bettys Scholar Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Bowen Island, British Columbia Posts: 120	People still get offended by Clarkson/Hammond/May after all these years? Jeeps are very popular in my neck of the woods and a good chunk of them are considered Pavement Princesses, as they have fancy wheels which their owners are too afraid to scratch. The ones that do actually take them offroad, seem to break down and need rescue often. - a Suzuki 4x4 owner
	Last edited by Bouncing Bettys; 1st February 2019 at 10:06 AM.

1st February 2019, 10:33 AM	#89
baron Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 8,169	Originally Posted by lobosrul5 The NDA for Top Gear may have become null and void after the Trio + Wilman's contracts were canceled. I think the show is roughly 90% planned out, but generally speaking there is no script written out. Sometimes things don't go as planned and they roll with it though. In Columbia they stopped for a day and modded their vehicles... anyone who thinks that wasn't planned is pretty dumb. Their production co certainly made arrangements to have all that stuff ready so they could be bolted on... ie the lift for Clarkson's Jeep. The lightning rolling in, and the hail storm on the mountain, that wasn't planned. Finding a dead and rotting Condor on the way back, I kinda doubt that was planned. That's pretty much as I see it. As I said, it's not a physical script, but it's a very tight framework where the mechanics and outcomes are tightly orchestrated. Sure, unexpected things happen and that's where the editing comes in. It's a bit like a stand-up show where the comedian says and does broadly the same thing every time, although an unplanned heckler or two might make it onto the DVD.
baron Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 8,169	__________________ "I don't think I'm getting the most out of my computer. I turn it on... and use it as a light." - Harry Hill

1st February 2019, 10:17 AM	#88
lobosrul5 Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 1,516	Originally Posted by baron There might be something like that but I'd have to check. Public revelations are unlikely because such things are always covered by NDAs or similar contractual agreements. I'm working under one right now from the entertainment industry and they are very stringent, and breaches are taken seriously. Aside from the info I got from my ex partner, I do recall a longer account of someone who worked with Derren Brown spilling the beans on his show; again, fully scripted and everything contractually controlled; that is to say, these 'independent' participants sign up-front clauses saying they will do as instructed and will not discuss the mechanics of the show with anybody outside of the production crew. That was unverifiable, for obvious reasons, but it fits in with what I've heard (and in the case of Brown, what is blatantly obvious). "That's my secret, Cap, I'm always... grumpy." The NDA for Top Gear may have become null and void after the Trio + Wilman's contracts were canceled. I think the show is roughly 90% planned out, but generally speaking there is no script written out. Sometimes things don't go as planned and they roll with it though. In Columbia they stopped for a day and modded their vehicles... anyone who thinks that wasn't planned is pretty dumb. Their production co certainly made arrangements to have all that stuff ready so they could be bolted on... ie the lift for Clarkson's Jeep. The lightning rolling in, and the hail storm on the mountain, that wasn't planned. Finding a dead and rotting Condor on the way back, I kinda doubt that was planned.

1st February 2019, 02:18 PM	#90
jeremyp Muse Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha Posts: 537	Originally Posted by baron I think it works fine for what it is - a sitcom. If you like that kind of thing then watch it, if not, don't. I don't, but my problem is that it transitioned from a show about cars to a sitcom as if that sort of thing is natural or desirable. There are sill people out there who don't believe every word, action and 'hilariously unplanned event' is scripted up the kazoo. The BBC cancelled the original "show about cars" because nobody watched it. The Clarkson reboot has always been about men messing about with cars in silly ways and I'm pretty sure that the presenters and the producer were pretty honest about that fact. If you don't like it, that's fine, you didn't have to watch it and there are plenty of other car shows that probably would cater to your taste. Personally, I wouldn't watch a show that consists mainly of reviews of run of the mill cars that I can test drive myself played straight.

1st February 2019, 02:24 PM	#91
Nessie Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 11,578	Originally Posted by 3point14 Is this supposition on your part or is there evidence? There was an episode where Clarkson announced TG had won a best unscripted show award, which he could not go and collect, because he was too busy writing the script. I suspect they have a good idea what they are going to say, but a lot is off the cuff. Then they do have various catch phrases which keep on repeating, "what could possible go wrong?", "cock" when it goes wrong, and shouts of "HAMMOND!" They usually sabotage each others cars and deliberately crash into each other. They also like to build and drive over very rickety bridges.
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1st February 2019, 02:26 PM	#92
Nessie Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 11,578	Originally Posted by jeremyp The BBC cancelled the original "show about cars" because nobody watched it. The Clarkson reboot has always been about men messing about with cars in silly ways and I'm pretty sure that the presenters and the producer were pretty honest about that fact. If you don't like it, that's fine, you didn't have to watch it and there are plenty of other car shows that probably would cater to your taste. Personally, I wouldn't watch a show that consists mainly of reviews of run of the mill cars that I can test drive myself played straight. Way back in 2004, Johnny Vaughan was one of the guests and he commented that they should make Top Gear (IIRC) "stag world, where men can roam free". He saw how it was developing and Clarkson, Hammond and May have transformed from reviewing cars, to presenting a show where some blokes get to do what many would love to do, muck about, have a laugh, do stupid things, build stuff (badly), drive cars and travel.
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1st February 2019, 02:30 PM	#93
baron Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 8,169	Originally Posted by jeremyp The BBC cancelled the original "show about cars" because nobody watched it. You wouldn't have thought they'd take 24 years to figure that out. The fact is that their format, after two decades, began to decrease in popularity and they decided to include a bit of comedy. Like everything else on TV, they chased the ratings and ended up changing the show's entire genre. There was still, and is still, a market for car shows that aren't sitcoms. Originally Posted by jeremyp The Clarkson reboot has always been about men messing about with cars in silly ways and I'm pretty sure that the presenters and the producer were pretty honest about that fact. For the first five or six years of the Clarkson era it was still primarily a factual show. Originally Posted by jeremyp If you don't like it, that's fine, you didn't have to watch it and there are plenty of other car shows that probably would cater to your taste. Personally, I wouldn't watch a show that consists mainly of reviews of run of the mill cars that I can test drive myself played straight. There's no comparison. One's a car show, the other's a sitcom based around vehicles. They are intended for different audiences.
baron Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 8,169	__________________ "I don't think I'm getting the most out of my computer. I turn it on... and use it as a light." - Harry Hill Last edited by baron; 1st February 2019 at 02:32 PM.

1st February 2019, 03:07 PM	#94
Childlike Empress Ewige Blumenkraft Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ivory Tower Posts: 16,250	Originally Posted by Nessie [...] a show where some blokes get to do what many would love to do, muck about, have a laugh, do stupid things, build stuff (badly), drive cars and travel. And last but not least cash in like kings. Maybe you just found the secret why so many blokes who don't get to do that are so offended by the show.

1st February 2019, 03:11 PM	#95
baron Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 8,169	Originally Posted by Childlike Empress And last but not least cash in like kings. Maybe you just found the secret why so many blokes who don't get to do that are so offended by the show. Who's offended? Not me. Like to see what's in my garage, luv?
baron Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 8,169	__________________ "I don't think I'm getting the most out of my computer. I turn it on... and use it as a light." - Harry Hill

1st February 2019, 03:18 PM	#96
Childlike Empress Ewige Blumenkraft Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ivory Tower Posts: 16,250	Originally Posted by baron Who's offended? Not me. Like to see what's in my garage, luv? I can see what's in your soul.

1st February 2019, 03:35 PM	#97
baron Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 8,169	Originally Posted by Childlike Empress I can see what's in your soul. That's a no, then.
baron Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 8,169	__________________ "I don't think I'm getting the most out of my computer. I turn it on... and use it as a light." - Harry Hill

1st February 2019, 04:06 PM	#98
zooterkin Nitpicking dilettante Deputy Admin Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Berkshire, mostly Posts: 41,735	Originally Posted by baron That's the thing, though, there is no 'banter'. It's a script and the trio adhere to it as closely as any actor. As you nearly admitted later, that isn't necessarily true, I'm pretty sure that while much of it is scripted, or at least following a pre-determine outline, there are almost certainly some improvised bits that work and are kept in the broadcast version. I'm fully aware of the artifice involved in making television, but sometimes it is as it seems. I was at the recording of the TV version of Just a Minute (admittedly primarily a radio show), and what was broadcast was pretty much what happened live; the only retakes were of intros by the presenter, and none of the panelists was working from a script. The only slight deception was that since they were recording two episodes, they moved some of the audience around at half time.
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1st February 2019, 04:35 PM	#99
novaphile Quester of Doglets Moderator Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 1,456	Originally Posted by 3point14 Is this supposition on your part or is there evidence? Tesla walked off the set after reading the script. The script detailed how Clarkson and co. were going to lie about the Tesla breaking down and running out of battery. Last episode I watched. https://www.lawyer-monthly.com/2018/...-has-it-ended/
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2nd February 2019, 03:45 AM	#100
baron Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 8,169	Originally Posted by zooterkin As you nearly admitted later, that isn't necessarily true, I'm pretty sure that while much of it is scripted, or at least following a pre-determine outline, there are almost certainly some improvised bits that work and are kept in the broadcast version. I'm fully aware of the artifice involved in making television, but sometimes it is as it seems. I was at the recording of the TV version of Just a Minute (admittedly primarily a radio show), and what was broadcast was pretty much what happened live; the only retakes were of intros by the presenter, and none of the panelists was working from a script. The only slight deception was that since they were recording two episodes, they moved some of the audience around at half time. OK, as closely as 'some' actors. Of course, if there's no formal script people are going to adlib or improvise, my point is that these shows are not what most people think they are. Some are worse than others. I imagine there are a few shows with no scripting, I don't know, but the content of TV shows for large audiences is not left to chance, why take the risk? Originally Posted by novaphile Tesla walked off the set after reading the script. The script detailed how Clarkson and co. were going to lie about the Tesla breaking down and running out of battery. Last episode I watched. https://www.lawyer-monthly.com/2018/...-has-it-ended/ A bit like the episodes where each of the three idiots bought a second hand car, pimped it up and drove from A to B. We are asked to believe that all the predictably hilarious incidents, breakdowns, fender benders and police stops are simply recordings of what happened along the way as opposed to carefully planned and choreographed events. And people believe it, I guess.
baron Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 8,169	__________________ "I don't think I'm getting the most out of my computer. I turn it on... and use it as a light." - Harry Hill

2nd February 2019, 08:37 PM	#101
The Norseman Meandering fecklessly Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 8,111	Originally Posted by baron Sure. Mine's a straight six. You're a UKian; six centimeters isn't as worthy of braggadocio as you may think.

3rd February 2019, 02:59 PM	#102
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 19,945	Originally Posted by cullennz Clarkson is a jerk, but old Will seems a bit over-sensitive See below The implausible deniability again - like the "slope" comment. Just because you can think up slurs that some people can't catch, it doesn't make it right or funny. Originally Posted by a_unique_person They had the radio playing "It's raining men" just in case you thought there was anything ambiguous about their statement. BTW. I hate jeeps, but just because they are **** cars. If you are the target of the "banter", then you get to say whether it's over the line. Especially if you are part of a group that still suffers discrimination or violence.
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3rd February 2019, 03:32 PM	#103
Travis Misanthrope of the Mountains Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 23,701	Last time I was in San Francisco I saw more Porsches than Jeep Wranglers.
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3rd February 2019, 03:38 PM	#104
qayak Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 13,224	Originally Posted by jimbob If you are the target of the "banter", then you get to say whether it's over the line. No. Everyone gets to decide for themselves where the line is and what crosses it.
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3rd February 2019, 04:54 PM	#105
Seismosaurus Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 5,705	Originally Posted by baron A bit like the episodes where each of the three idiots bought a second hand car, pimped it up and drove from A to B. We are asked to believe that all the predictably hilarious incidents, breakdowns, fender benders and police stops are simply recordings of what happened along the way as opposed to carefully planned and choreographed events. And people believe it, I guess. Do they, though? I loved Top Gear under Clarkson, I like The Grand Tour a lot. I've never believed it was improvised, and never cared. The appearance of improvisation is entertaining whether genuine or not for me, and I'd think that would be true for most of the audience.
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3rd February 2019, 05:17 PM	#106
P.J. Denyer Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 5,084	Originally Posted by Mark F As I recall Will Young and Clarkson got on so well when Young did Top Gear that it became the butt of jokes later on in that series. Yeah, but Will Young doesn't get much attention these days. Attack Clarkson and you know you're guaranteed some supporters.
P.J. Denyer Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 5,084	__________________ "I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion "Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills

3rd February 2019, 05:24 PM	#107
P.J. Denyer Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 5,084	Originally Posted by Nessie Everyone knows what Clarkson is like, many just watch him to be offended. https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...larkson-amazon "The schoolboy sniggering of The Grand Tour is catastrophically unfunny." So don't watch it then. It never ceases to amaze me how many people fail to understand that Jeremy Clarkson is playing a character. Yes, it shares his name, but it's still a character.
P.J. Denyer Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 5,084	__________________ "I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion "Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills

3rd February 2019, 05:42 PM	#108
P.J. Denyer Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 5,084	Originally Posted by baron That's because Clarkson and his mates are at the top of their game. They're very good at what they do. Like 'Never Mind the Buzzcocks' and 'Have I Got News for You'; people love the spontaneity, but these are rehearsed too. They're given the questions and topics before-hand, they sit around discussing their answers, work up their jokes, practice their interactions, etc. and whilst they don't learn a physical script it's the same thing. There are a lot of edits but what makes it to the screen is pre-planned and rarely off-the-cuff. When I say nothing is left to chance I don't mean every word is memorised, more that everybody knows exactly what the others will say, and every action - especially true in the case of TG - is planned, scrutinised, approved and choreographed. Hammond doesn't get set foot in that rocket propelled bathtub without knowing exactly which bush it will end up in. In "Grand Tour" they address this directly in an 'unscripted' trip (to Portugal iirc), where they end up on dead end roads, can't hear the audio and set themselves incompatible goals because no-one's organising the show. I've always assumed that the challenges are planned in detail and the script roughed out (to cover the 'beats' of the conversation) and then actual dialogue improvised over several takes with the best bits edited together. There's certainly some spontaneity, bits like May throwing a rock at Clarkson's windscreen in anger after being rear ended seemed spontaneous anyway. I admit, I'd love their jobs, and income. But at the same time I do think that for TV presenters they work quite hard and put themselves at some personal risk for the shows.
P.J. Denyer Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 5,084	__________________ "I know my brain cannot tell me what to think." - Scorpion "Nebulous means Nebulous" - Adam Hills

4th February 2019, 03:27 AM	#109
baron Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 8,169	Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer In "Grand Tour" they address this directly in an 'unscripted' trip (to Portugal iirc), where they end up on dead end roads, can't hear the audio and set themselves incompatible goals because no-one's organising the show. I've always assumed that the challenges are planned in detail and the script roughed out (to cover the 'beats' of the conversation) and then actual dialogue improvised over several takes with the best bits edited together. There's certainly some spontaneity, bits like May throwing a rock at Clarkson's windscreen in anger after being rear ended seemed spontaneous anyway. I admit, I'd love their jobs, and income. But at the same time I do think that for TV presenters they work quite hard and put themselves at some personal risk for the shows. I would have loved to do stuff like that in my 30s, not so much now. I don't think there's much risk in what they do, Hammond's accidents are just a result of him being a lunatic as opposed to anything inherent in his TV role. That said, it is risky to drive through Argentina in a car with the number plate H982 FKL, something the TG crew swore down was a coincidence - a coincidence that not one of them had actually noticed - but the entire rest of the world understood perfectly well was, you guessed it, a well thought-out and planned part of the script.
baron Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 8,169	__________________ "I don't think I'm getting the most out of my computer. I turn it on... and use it as a light." - Harry Hill

4th February 2019, 03:32 AM	#110
Nessie Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 11,578	edNo one would look at H982 FKL and instantly think of the Falkland War. At the time no evidence was presented by those who claim it was a set up/fake, that was an invented plate put onto the car for filming.
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4th February 2019, 03:34 AM	#111
baron Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 8,169	Originally Posted by Nessie edNo one would look at H982 FKL and instantly think of the Falkland War. That's funny. Wait... you're serious? Impossible, sorry.
baron Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 8,169	__________________ "I don't think I'm getting the most out of my computer. I turn it on... and use it as a light." - Harry Hill

4th February 2019, 06:51 AM	#112
Eddie Dane Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 6,390	Here in the Netherlands hairdressers often drive Suzuki jeeps, black guys drive red Honda Civics, dentists drive Saab and Volvo etc etc. Can we now longer point those patterns out in a humorous way? Can I still say Lesbians drive Subaru's? (OK, that happened because Subaru's marketing specifically targeted them as a demographic)
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4th February 2019, 07:40 AM	#113
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 84,684	Originally Posted by Bouncing Bettys People still get offended by Clarkson/Hammond/May after all these years? Jeeps are very popular in my neck of the woods and a good chunk of them are considered Pavement Princesses, as they have fancy wheels which their owners are too afraid to scratch. The ones that do actually take them offroad, seem to break down and need rescue often. - a Suzuki 4x4 owner I think you meant “publicists still trying to get media attention for Clarkson/Hammond/May after all these years? “
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4th February 2019, 04:50 PM	#114
lobosrul5 Graduate Poster Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 1,516	Originally Posted by Nessie edNo one would look at H982 FKL and instantly think of the Falkland War. At the time no evidence was presented by those who claim it was a set up/fake, that was an invented plate put onto the car for filming. There is actual, rather compelling evidence, that it wasn't a setup. https://vehicleenquiry.service.gov.uk/ViewVehicle Pop in the plate #, answer yes and you get: "Date of first registration: May 1991". So it was the actual plate, registered since 1991, on the type of car that they often take on road trips. To suggest that they went around searching the UK for plates that might, kind of, allude to the Falklands War, and found one on an old Porsche, is ludicrous to say the least.
	Last edited by lobosrul5; 4th February 2019 at 04:51 PM.

4th February 2019, 05:49 PM	#115
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 31,588	Originally Posted by Seismosaurus Do they, though? I loved Top Gear under Clarkson, I like The Grand Tour a lot. I've never believed it was improvised, and never cared. The appearance of improvisation is entertaining whether genuine or not for me, and I'd think that would be true for most of the audience. The question is, is it kayfabe, or is it just fake?

5th February 2019, 07:28 AM	#116
Gilbert Syndrome Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Liverpool, UK Posts: 5,813	Being surprised that Clarkson and the rest of his beyond-mid-life-crisis suffering gang of schoolboys are bellends is like being surprised that Boris Johnson is a bit of a soft arsed ********. Stewart Lee said it best: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7CnMQ4L9Pc
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5th February 2019, 10:39 AM	#117
Nessie Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 11,578	Originally Posted by lobosrul5 There is actual, rather compelling evidence, that it wasn't a setup. https://vehicleenquiry.service.gov.uk/ViewVehicle Pop in the plate #, answer yes and you get: "Date of first registration: May 1991". So it was the actual plate, registered since 1991, on the type of car that they often take on road trips. To suggest that they went around searching the UK for plates that might, kind of, allude to the Falklands War, and found one on an old Porsche, is ludicrous to say the least. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring...buying-it.html "Mr Waring (seller of the Porsche) said the unnamed BBC employee who purchased the car in August was specifically looking for a manual 928 and would not have had much choice in the market place." The article reveals TG knew what the reg was when they bought the car, but of course they would since they have bought it and got the documentation required for the purchase and to export it. That does not mean anyone twigged to the reg number's numbers and letter sequence. " She (TG representative) subsequently admitted that they had received a copy of the vehicle’s registration document before buying it but claimed it “would not have been read in any minute detail” and that it was still bought "blind". “Top Gear buys a huge number of cars,” she said. “They just sign, they don’t read it in any great detail." The article also points out TG has another reg in the car "BE11 END". If they really were worried about the FKL plate, then they would not be replacing it with something daft like that.
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5th February 2019, 04:19 PM	#118
P.J. Denyer Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 5,084	Originally Posted by Nessie https://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring...buying-it.html "Mr Waring (seller of the Porsche) said the unnamed BBC employee who purchased the car in August was specifically looking for a manual 928 and would not have had much choice in the market place." The article reveals TG knew what the reg was when they bought the car, but of course they would since they have bought it and got the documentation required for the purchase and to export it. That does not mean anyone twigged to the reg number's numbers and letter sequence. " She (TG representative) subsequently admitted that they had received a copy of the vehicle’s registration document before buying it but claimed it “would not have been read in any minute detail” and that it was still bought "blind". “Top Gear buys a huge number of cars,” she said. “They just sign, they don’t read it in any great detail." The article also points out TG has another reg in the car "BE11 END". If they really were worried about the FKL plate, then they would not be replacing it with something daft like that. The BE11 END plate was claimed in a couple of articles at the time to be a reference to the 'end' of the Belgrano, as opposed to the insult they often throw at Clarkson. The other two number plates were also claimed, by some, to have been chosen deliberately - because they were 'close' to the casualties on both sides or some such.
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