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Old 5th February 2019, 08:06 AM   #41
Belz...
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
It's cool to see someone construct a definition of racism that excludes lynchings.
Here's the thing: lynchings aren't racist. But the historical lynchings in the US were absolutely part of a system of ingrained racism.

Neeson's desire was not, based on the information we have, based on a view that black people are inferior or evil, but on an irrational and stupid conflation of visible characteristics.

And to respond specifically to your post, it's cool to see people construct a definition of racism that includes casting actors for historical characters.
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Old 5th February 2019, 08:07 AM   #42
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I really, really wish the "Racism" and "Racism but institutional racism but I'm still going to just say racism" non-distinction had never become a thing.
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Old 5th February 2019, 08:09 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I really, really wish the "Racism" and "Racism but institutional racism but I'm still going to just say racism" non-distinction had never become a thing.
Not sure I follow. How do _you_ define racism, then?

My issue with the broadening of the term is that it's essentially become meaningless.
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Old 5th February 2019, 08:12 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Not sure I follow. How do _you_ define racism, then?

My issue with the broadening of the term is that it's essentially become meaningless.
I can't imagine any definition of racism where "I'm gonna go kill a black man because another black man hurt someone I love" wouldn't fit.

I agree in the abstract that the term has lost much of its meaning with various sides using it in various ways to the point that you kind of have to follow up any statement with clarification of what exactly you're talking about specifically however.
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Old 5th February 2019, 08:13 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That's not what racism is.
Yes it is. FFS.

and this clearly is racist. Let's face it if he had found out the perpetrator was a postman he wouldn't have gone out looking for a postie bastard, or if they were quite tall he wouldn't have gone out looking for a tall bastard.

But because he knew the guy was black he decided that everyone of the same skin colour shared a collective guilt. That's straight up racism.
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Old 5th February 2019, 08:15 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I can't imagine any definition of racism where "I'm gonna go kill a black man because another black man hurt someone I love" wouldn't fit.
He's ascribing the crime of one black man to all black men. That's prejudice against a group a people based on the color of their skin which is textbook racism.
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Old 5th February 2019, 08:15 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I can't imagine any definition of racism where "I'm gonna go kill a black man because another black man hurt someone I love" wouldn't fit.
Sorry Joe but that doesn't answer my question.

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Yes it is. FFS.
I suggest you look up the actual definition, Archie, because no, it isn't. Every definition I've seen relies on an element of racial superiority.

And by the way, you can tone down the outrage, because it not being racism doesn't make it right!
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Old 5th February 2019, 08:17 AM   #48
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John Barnes has gone out to bat for Liam Neeson. Admittedly he does mix up the words "rapist" and "racist" a few times and talks about "William Churchill" at one point, but that could be from the impassioned defence of Neeson and his admiration for Neeson's honesty.

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I AGREE


And let's face it, if one black person can excuse Liam Neeson then....oh, wait...

Okay, so it's just one guy's opinion.
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Old 5th February 2019, 08:19 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Sorry Joe but that doesn't answer my question.



I suggest you look up the actual definition, Archie, because no, it isn't. Every definition I've seen relies on an element of racial superiority.

And by the way, you can tone down the outrage, because it not being racism doesn't make it right!
If we're going to play the definition game then:

Quote:
racism
noun [ U ] US ​ /ˈreɪ·sɪz·əm/

social studies the belief that some races are better than others, or the unfair treatment of someone because of his or her race
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dic...english/racism

Do you not think that killing someone because of their race is a bit unfair?
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 5th February 2019, 08:19 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
John Barnes has gone out to bat for Liam Neeson. Admittedly he does mix up the words "rapist" and "racist" a few times and talks about "William Churchill" at one point, but that could be from the impassioned defence of Neeson and his admiration for Neeson's honesty.

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I AGREE


And let's face it, if one black person can excuse Liam Neeson then....oh, wait...

Okay, so it's just one guy's opinion.
Indeed. I don't know why anyone would defend Neeson here. At the very least, he admits that it was wrong and stupid, which at least suggests he's changed since then. But that was a tremendously stupid thing to do. Good thing nobody got on the wrong end of his particular set of skills during that week.
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Old 5th February 2019, 08:19 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Yes it is. FFS.

and this clearly is racist. Let's face it if he had found out the perpetrator was a postman he wouldn't have gone out looking for a postie bastard, or if they were quite tall he wouldn't have gone out looking for a tall bastard.

But because he knew the guy was black he decided that everyone of the same skin colour shared a collective guilt. That's straight up racism.
Is there any evidence he reacted as he did only because the perpetrator was black?
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Old 5th February 2019, 08:19 AM   #52
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I think far more damaging than Liam Neeson having an anger induced bout of temporary racism, is giving the Twitter Outrage Machine, the ability to tell the country how to feel about everything.
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Old 5th February 2019, 08:20 AM   #53
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Racism
Quote:
1: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
2a: a doctrine or political program based on the assumption of racism and designed to execute its principles
b: a political or social system founded on racism
3: racial prejudice or discrimination
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Old 5th February 2019, 08:20 AM   #54
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Quote:
racism
noun [ U ] UK ​ /ˈreɪ.sɪ.zəm/ US ​ /ˈreɪ.sɪ.zəm/ also uk old-fashioned racialism disapproving

B2 the belief that people's qualities are influenced by their race and that the members of other races are not as good as the members of your own, or the resulting unfair treatment of members of other races:
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dic...english/racism
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 5th February 2019, 08:24 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
If we're going to play the definition game
Ok, time out.

How is it a "game" to point out that a word, which is the cornerstone of communicating between people, especially in discussion forums, is being used incorrectly? Isn't it essential that we use words properly so that we all understand each other?

If I see a table, and call it a table, and you ask me to put the cutlery on the cow, am I playing games when I point out that this is not a cow but in fact a table?

Quote:
Do you not think that killing someone because of their race is a bit unfair?
I think killing anyone is unfair. Anyway, I understand your point.

However your link first says this:

Quote:
the belief that people's qualities are influenced by their race and that the members of other races are not as good as the members of your own, or the resulting unfair treatment of members of other races:
Then goes on with the definition you quoted. It's unclear why they have two definitions that differ essentially only in the omission of this relationship from the second one. But if the second clause results from the first, then the first is essential, unless we want to second-amendment this one.

Anyway, fine. Stacko has also quoted Merriam-Webster's third definition supporting y'all's interpretation. So I'll concede that, and curse Wiki and Dictionary.com and others under my breath.
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Old 5th February 2019, 08:24 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Is there any evidence he reacted as he did only because the perpetrator was black?
The answer is no;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-47133868

"He (Neeson) told ABC: "If she had said an Irish or a Scot or a Brit or a Lithuanian I would - I know I would - have had the same effect. I was trying to show honour, to stand up for my dear friend in this terribly medieval fashion.""
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Old 5th February 2019, 08:28 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
If I see a table, and call it a table, and you ask me to put the cutlery on the cow, am I playing games when I point out that this is not a cow but in fact a table?
Absolutely not. But you are when you insist that only one particular narrow definition of a word is the correct one, despite that word having a commonly used broader definition as well.
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Old 5th February 2019, 08:28 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
(...) the fact he referred to his alleged target as a 'black bastard' is odd. Why didn't he just say 'black man'?
I don’t find that part odd. “I want to go out and pick a fight with some bastard” sounds more natural than “I want to go out and pick a fight with some man.” Emphasis that you wanna fight a right full-on bastard rather than just the next poor bastard you see.
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Old 5th February 2019, 08:30 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Indeed. I don't know why anyone would defend Neeson here. At the very least, he admits that it was wrong and stupid, which at least suggests he's changed since then. But that was a tremendously stupid thing to do. Good thing nobody got on the wrong end of his particular set of skills during that week.
Yes, but as Barnes says in angrysoba's vid, Neeson should be applauded for his honesty. that's the kind of thing that should be encouraged, rather than keeping it under wraps for looks. He admitted to being a horrible person for a while, before being busted on it, as so many others have.
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Old 5th February 2019, 08:31 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Guybrush Threepwood View Post
Absolutely not. But you are when you insist that only one particular narrow definition of a word is the correct one, despite that word having a commonly used broader definition as well.
Ok, my issue is that a LOT of words have become used in a VERY broad fashion, essentially allowing the speaker to label anything and anyone with whatever said speaking wants to label it or them. For instance, there was a ridiculous story a couple of years ago claiming that snowplowing was sexist, because the highways were prioritised but not daycare centers, and that moms predominently were the parent bringing their children there, as if "sexism" means "something that statistically affects women negatively more than men".

And no, what you describe above isn't a game, either. Unless you're using a broad definition of that word, too. Someone who is playing a game isn't debating honestly. I think it's not new that I prefer very narrow definitions to avoid the stuff I was describing above.
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Old 5th February 2019, 08:32 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yes, but as Barnes says in angrysoba's vid, Neeson should be applauded for his honesty. that's the kind of thing that should be encouraged, rather than keeping it under wraps for looks. He admitted to being a horrible person for a while, before being busted on it, as so many others have.
I agree. However in this day and age of internet outrage, Neeson might forever be known as the guy who wants to kill black people, etc.
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Old 5th February 2019, 08:35 AM   #62
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It's complex, chiefly because we don't know (And probably even Liam Neeson himself wouldn't be able to tell you accurately either) what exactly was going through his mind. It sounds like a mixture of deep anger and deep frustration at not being able to find the person who raped his friend. So, armed with nothing but the piece of information about the color of their skin, and a crowbar, he went outside "hoping" (and I put it in scare quotes, because I suspect that deep down inside, he knew he would never find him) that eventually, the guy who raped his friend would show up, pick a fight with him, and reveal himself to Neeson, so he could kill him. It's a ****** up version of going out the street and yelling "Where are you, ************? Show yourself! I'm here!" But this sounds more like a deep need to feel like you're doing something to try to find the person, because you're really hurt and angry; and less like an actual plan to go through with it. Again, I don't know and probably Neeson doesn't know either, but that's my take. I think if he really, really wanted to beat the **** out of someone, and after a week no one had "given him an excuse", then, if you really really can't contain yourself, you just go and do it anyway even if the person isn't giving you a reason. But because Neeson isn't that type of person, after a week of waiting for someone to give him a reason, he just realized how stupid the whole thing was.

It's hard to tell whether or not, had a black guy actually said something to Neeson, that Neeson would have actually pick a fight with him. And even if this had happened, we would have to study the case in detail. After all, there are many, many different types of people out there. Say Neeson had actually stumbled upon a lunatic who happened to be black, and who happened to be out the street that day looking for a random person to pick a fight and kill? (Those people do exist, by the way. And yes, in all colors and shapes) And say that if Neeson hadn't been there, the immediate next person to be selected by the guy would have been a young girl. So then, even if Neeson's motivation was completely wrong, in this scenario he would have been lucky to actually hit a dangerous target that did need to be taken down before they hurt someone. It would still not justify his motivation, but it wouldn't be something that required a penalization against Neeson, as opposed to pick a fight with a random black dude who wasn't looking for a fight at all.

But this is all a neverending string of suppositions in the abstract. We only have what in fact happened: Neeson went outside with an intention triggered by a deep irrational emotion, and didn't actually go through with it. And on top of that, he had the ability to reflect on it and admit it was wrong, and even confess it without anyone asking him. That's pretty admirable. It takes guts to both study oneself and re-consider what one is doing, and even more guts to confess it in public, risking the backlash.
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Old 5th February 2019, 08:35 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The answer is no;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-47133868

"He (Neeson) told ABC: "If she had said an Irish or a Scot or a Brit or a Lithuanian I would - I know I would - have had the same effect. I was trying to show honour, to stand up for my dear friend in this terribly medieval fashion.""
I didn't know black was a nationality.
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Old 5th February 2019, 08:39 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
I didn't know black was a nationality.
Okay this sort of comment keeps getting dropped and I think it's missing the point.

"Racism" is just a term we use for one kind of bigotry or prejudice or whatever.

The fact that other kinds of prejudice aren't "racism" doesn't make them incomparable.
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Old 5th February 2019, 08:39 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
No, but people do. Especially racist people. Have you never heard anyone say, "black bastard"?
Yes, Liam Neeson. You still haven't said what racist joke I'm supposed to have told.
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Old 5th February 2019, 08:42 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Stacko
Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The answer is no;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-47133868

"He (Neeson) told ABC: "If she had said an Irish or a Scot or a Brit or a Lithuanian I would - I know I would - have had the same effect. I was trying to show honour, to stand up for my dear friend in this terribly medieval fashion.""
I didn't know black was a nationality.
That's OK, I didn't know Irish, Scots, Brits and Lithuanians were all different colours.
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Old 5th February 2019, 08:46 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay this sort of comment keeps getting dropped and I think it's missing the point.

"Racism" is just a term we use for one kind of bigotry or prejudice or whatever.

The fact that other kinds of prejudice aren't "racism" doesn't make them incomparable.
That wasn't remotely my point. See post 69 for a hint.
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Old 5th February 2019, 08:46 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Hillary supporter
Deep thoughts.
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Old 5th February 2019, 08:47 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Deep thoughts.
Time well spent.
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Old 5th February 2019, 08:48 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Deep thoughts.
Just be happy he used his words.
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Old 5th February 2019, 08:50 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Yes it is. FFS.

and this clearly is racist. Let's face it if he had found out the perpetrator was a postman he wouldn't have gone out looking for a postie bastard, or if they were quite tall he wouldn't have gone out looking for a tall bastard.

But because he knew the guy was black he decided that everyone of the same skin colour shared a collective guilt. That's straight up racism.

I don't think we can assume he wouldn't have gone looking for a tall man or a postman, if that were the only information he had. (Unless we assume he's a racist, and therefore would have reacted differently to knowledge of a distinguishing feature of skin color than he would have to knowledge of a distinguishing feature of height or clothing/occupation. But in that case, concluding he's a racist after having assumed so is no surprise.)

Going after any innocent person for revenge would be a criminal act, an immoral act, and an injustice. If we can prove it's also racism, does it really become a super-uber-mega-injustice instead?
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Old 5th February 2019, 08:50 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
The answer is no;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-47133868

"He (Neeson) told ABC: "If she had said an Irish or a Scot or a Brit or a Lithuanian I would - I know I would - have had the same effect. I was trying to show honour, to stand up for my dear friend in this terribly medieval fashion.""
This ABC interview is a follow-up to his Independent interview. It was in the former that he first said he had just asked about the race of the assailant.

In the one you quoted from he still pretty much says the same thing and he only really says he would have killed someone based on nationality when the interviewer seems to be helping him out.

Yet he still says it's about racism and bigotry:

https://abcnews.go.com/beta-story-co...ry?id=60849164

I don't think he really shies away from it.
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Old 5th February 2019, 08:53 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Yes, Liam Neeson. You still haven't said what racist joke I'm supposed to have told.
That's because you haven't explained your confusion. You say it is odd he said "black bastard" and not "black man". But if Liam Neeson is racist, then it isn't odd at all, is it? So why do you think so?
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Old 5th February 2019, 08:54 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
That's because you haven't explained your confusion. You say it is odd he said "black bastard" and not "black man". But if Liam Neeson is racist, then it isn't odd at all, is it? So why do you think so?
In fact, I'm not sure it would be odd were he not a racist.
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Old 5th February 2019, 08:54 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
I didn't know black was a nationality.
And it's not like the guy who raped the person was not from some country.

What WAS the nationality of the black guy who raped his friend? Does he even know?

I don't buy his claim.
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Old 5th February 2019, 08:56 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
And it's not like the guy who raped the person was not from some country.

What WAS the nationality of the black guy who raped his friend? Does he even know?

I don't buy his claim.
Why not? Do you think the events wouldn't have unfolded similarily had the assailant being a ginger?
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Old 5th February 2019, 08:56 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
You still haven't said what racist joke I'm supposed to have told.
It could have been read as “you don’t need to specify ‘bastard’ cause they’re all bastards” sort of like “why would you say ‘dumb’ (slur) instead of just (slur)”

I didn’t read it that way myself but that’s probably what they meant
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Old 5th February 2019, 08:58 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
In fact, I'm not sure it would be odd were he not a racist.
Exactly! There is nothing odd about him saying "black bastard" rather than "black man".
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 5th February 2019, 08:58 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Monty Python referred to Belgians as Fat Belgian Bastards in one of the game show skits.
Facts are never racist .
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Old 5th February 2019, 09:01 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
That's because you haven't explained your confusion. You say it is odd he said "black bastard" and not "black man".
Yes, it is. Most people say, 'black man', so substituting 'bastard' for 'man' is odd.

Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
But if Liam Neeson is racist, then it isn't odd at all, is it? So why do you think so?
Ah, so you're begging the question. You didn't make that clear. You assume he's racist and on top of that, assume that I assume the same thing.

Well, I don't. I'm not aware of any prior evidence Neeson is racist. Therefore, his terminology is odd. What's more, you have no evidence either, and indeed nobody does. If they did, people wouldn't be surprised by what he just said.
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