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Old 5th February 2019, 09:03 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Yes, it is. Most people say, 'black man', so substituting 'bastard' for 'man' is odd.
I think when someone's angry, or recalling being angry, they can increase the tone of their wording. Nothing odd about that, and it's true whether one's a racist or not.
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Old 5th February 2019, 09:03 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
And it's not like the guy who raped the person was not from some country.

What WAS the nationality of the black guy who raped his friend? Does he even know?

I don't buy his claim.
It's a pretty standard blind spot. This is literally just subconscious discrimination that everyone does if you don't stop to question yourself. I was just poking fun at it because it's ultimately very harmful.
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Old 5th February 2019, 09:10 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Yes, it is. Most people say, 'black man', so substituting 'bastard' for 'man' is odd.
This is like asking why the drunk guy at the pub bellowed "You ******* ******" when they could have said, "You rather irritating man!"

Liam Neeson says, "black bastard!" and you think it is "odd"?

Originally Posted by baron View Post
Ah, so you're begging the question. You didn't make that clear. You assume he's racist and on top of that, assume that I assume the same thing.
You have already said that Liam Neeson is racist.

Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
No, but people do. Especially racist people. Have you never heard anyone say, "black bastard"?
Originally Posted by baron View Post
Yes, Liam Neeson.
So, I am not assuming Liam Neeson is racist, I am merely saying that assuming he is what you say he is... then it isn't odd, is it?
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Old 5th February 2019, 09:12 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I think when someone's angry, or recalling being angry, they can increase the tone of their wording. Nothing odd about that, and it's true whether one's a racist or not.
I still think it's an odd thing to say. And to be fair, it's an odd thing to do - go out looking for a black man because his friend had been raped by a black man. I could understand if he tracked down a rapist with the intent of giving him a beating. Maybe Guinness had something to do with it.
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Old 5th February 2019, 09:15 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
This is like asking why the drunk guy at the pub bellowed "You ******* ******" when they could have said, "You rather irritating man!"
Was Liam Neeson drunk during the interview? If not, what's the relevance?

Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Liam Neeson says, "black bastard!" and you think it is "odd"?
Yes, I think I've said that already.

Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
You have already said that Liam Neeson is racist.
No I haven't. You asked if I'd ever heard someone say, 'black bastard'. I responded yes, Liam Neeson. In what way is that me saying he's racist?

Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
So, I am not assuming Liam Neeson is racist, I am merely saying that assuming he is what you say he is... then it isn't odd, is it?
As I didn't say it your point is moot. I'm just glad you finally agree with me, that it's odd.
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Old 5th February 2019, 09:16 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
This ABC interview is a follow-up to his Independent interview. It was in the former that he first said he had just asked about the race of the assailant.

In the one you quoted from he still pretty much says the same thing and he only really says he would have killed someone based on nationality when the interviewer seems to be helping him out.
Which goes back to what I said earlier about where and when he grew up.
If it had been a "Proddy Bastard" he'd have gone hunting around the relevant areas of Belfast I expect.

Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Yet he still says it's about racism and bigotry:

https://abcnews.go.com/beta-story-co...ry?id=60849164

I don't think he really shies away from it.
Fair does to him I suppose.
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Old 5th February 2019, 09:17 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
As best as I can put it we revert to a more basic, reflexive version of ourselves.

But that's not the same thing as saying that version of a person is the "truer" or "real" version of that person.

Stress doesn't purify us and reveal our real selves (as much as "real selves" is even a thing), it adds complexity.

- Liam Neeson is the kind of person who, when under stress, reverts to a person more open to racism.

and

- That "version" of Liam Neeson is the "real" one.

are not the same thing.
Yeah, this is pretty much it. I've been through a serious illness of a loved one where there was a period of a couple of weeks when I didn't know whether she'd pull through. If during that time some woomeister would have appeared peddling some expensive flim-flam cure, I'm not sure I would have had the willpower not to dart to the bank and start emptying my accounts - even if I knew it was quackery. Things get weird when you're at the end of your rope.
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Old 5th February 2019, 09:18 AM   #88
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Neeson had a perfectly natural reaction.

The tendency to lump outgroup members together and struggle to differentiate between them is fundamental to how our brains work and a big part of why diversity cannot work.
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Old 5th February 2019, 09:19 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Neeson had a perfectly natural reaction.

The tendency to lump outgroup members together and struggle to differentiate between them is fundamental to how our brains work and a big part of why diversity cannot work.
Exactly, just like how aggression, rape and murder is wired into our brain and there's no point in making laws or changing attitutes to combat it.
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Old 5th February 2019, 09:21 AM   #90
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This was in Ireland? Considering less than 1% of the country is of African descent, I'm not surprised he didnt find anybody.
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Old 5th February 2019, 09:33 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
This was in Ireland? Considering less than 1% of the country is of African descent, I'm not surprised he didnt find anybody.
And if he did, he might've found the culprit!
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Old 5th February 2019, 09:38 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Was Liam Neeson drunk during the interview? If not, what's the relevance?
Oh look at it! It's like butter wouldn't melt in your mouth!

Originally Posted by baron View Post
No I haven't. You asked if I'd ever heard someone say, 'black bastard'. I responded yes, Liam Neeson. In what way is that me saying he's racist?
Okay, let me admit to being wrong and misreading what you said. Now someone give me the Liam Neeson Medal for Admitting Mistakes.
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Old 5th February 2019, 09:40 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
Neeson had a perfectly natural reaction.

The tendency to lump outgroup members together and struggle to differentiate between them is fundamental to how our brains work and a big part of why diversity cannot work.
His reaction was that it was wrong, across the board. You applaud this, yes?

We sometimes have impulsive reactions to knock someone's teeth out, or have sex with someone. Totally cool to act on those impulses too, being natural and all?

eta: bah. Ninja'd by Belz..., like a Jussie Smollette attacker
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Last edited by Thermal; 5th February 2019 at 10:04 AM.
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Old 5th February 2019, 09:41 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Oh look at it! It's like butter wouldn't melt in your mouth!



Okay, let me admit to being wrong and misreading what you said. Now someone give me the Liam Neeson Medal for Admitting Mistakes.
Or shun you for the rest of your career. That's an option, too
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Old 5th February 2019, 09:42 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Or shun you for the rest of your career. That's an option, too
If it gives me a bit of peace and quiet, I'll take that too.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 5th February 2019, 09:44 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
If it gives me a bit of peace and quiet, I'll take that too.
'Franken-retirement'. It's a thing now
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Old 5th February 2019, 09:48 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Yes, it is. Most people say, 'black man', so substituting 'bastard' for 'man' is odd.
I guess he didn't want anyone to think he was sexist.
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Old 5th February 2019, 09:49 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
Yeah, this is pretty much it. I've been through a serious illness of a loved one where there was a period of a couple of weeks when I didn't know whether she'd pull through. If during that time some woomeister would have appeared peddling some expensive flim-flam cure, I'm not sure I would have had the willpower not to dart to the bank and start emptying my accounts - even if I knew it was quackery. Things get weird when you're at the end of your rope.
Yes, but a desperate Hail-Mary to save a specific someone is incomparable to desperately trying to kill any random person who had the same skin color of an attacker.
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Old 5th February 2019, 09:56 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
I guess he didn't want anyone to think he was sexist.
Ah, he's a progressive man, so he is to be sure.

I'm wondering now if this story is actually true. Did he really walk round Belfast for a week carrying a cosh and hoping that a black man would leap out of the shadows and attack him thus giving him the excuse to beat him to death? Or did he set off down the high street with jutting jaw and clenched fists before realising that he's an actor as opposed to a ex-CIA martial arts hero and scuttling back to his house five minutes later?
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Old 5th February 2019, 10:02 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Ah, he's a progressive man, so he is to be sure.

I'm wondering now if this story is actually true. Did he really walk round Belfast for a week carrying a cosh and hoping that a black man would leap out of the shadows and attack him thus giving him the excuse to beat him to death? Or did he set off down the high street with jutting jaw and clenched fists before realising that he's an actor as opposed to a ex-CIA martial arts hero and scuttling back to his house five minutes later?
If he was just poor slob Billy Neeson at the time (before acting), it's possible. It hurts his image to bring this up, one way or the other. the tough guys who like vigilantism won't like his recanting, and the tumbr masses don't like the racism. So he's screwed.
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Old 5th February 2019, 10:11 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
If he was just poor slob Billy Neeson at the time (before acting), it's possible. It hurts his image to bring this up, one way or the other. the tough guys who like vigilantism won't like his recanting, and the tumbr masses don't like the racism. So he's screwed.
I don't think he recanted on the vigilantism, more on the idea that an innocent man should be killed as a proxy for a rapist. That's not even vigilantism, it's idiocy. I go with my initial assessment, he's tosser.
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Old 5th February 2019, 10:17 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Am I supposed to understand that my post was a strawman? Tank used human tribal tendencies to suggest that multicultural societies are impossible. I'm pointing out, quite correctly, that we've been successfully making societies work against other human tendencies, putting his claim into question.
I think it was just the tone that was similar
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Old 5th February 2019, 10:21 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
I didn't know black was a nationality.
It is not. He was saying that no matter who it had been, there would have been something, race, nationality, that he would have latched onto in his revenge lust.
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Old 5th February 2019, 10:24 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yes, but a desperate Hail-Mary to save a specific someone is incomparable to desperately trying to kill any random person who had the same skin color of an attacker.
I'm not sure it is. Is it even a desperate Hail Mary if you know what you're doing will make no difference?

Anyway, both are (or since I don't know Neeson, could be) out-of-character, irrational acts you just do beacuse of a maddening need to do something. This can somehow coexist with the knowledge that there's really nothing you can do.
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Old 5th February 2019, 10:24 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
It is not. He was saying that no matter who it had been, there would have been something, race, nationality, that he would have latched onto in his revenge lust.
Good job it wasn't a gay rape; hanging around outside public toilets for a week with a stiff object in his pocket wouldn't have done his acting career much good.

Actually...
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Old 5th February 2019, 10:29 AM   #106
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He has owned up to doing something stupid, which he regrets...

DURING A PUBLICITY INTERVIEW FOR HIS LATEST TOUGH GUY FILM

ooooo!
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Old 5th February 2019, 10:42 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
It is not. He was saying that no matter who it had been, there would have been something, race, nationality, that he would have latched onto in his revenge lust.
I think, especially given just how homogeneous and very pale Ireland is, and especially was at the time Liam's friend got raped, it was legitimate for one of the very few black men there raping a white woman (I presume these are the facts of it) to end up feeling like a particularly invasive and intolerable breach of the peace and the sanctity of his people's living space - even if he would like to portray it now as though "and if she'd said it was a guy wit a mustache, I'd have felt exactly like this toward men with mustaches!"

Not buying it.

Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Am I supposed to understand that my post was a strawman? Tank used human tribal tendencies to suggest that multicultural societies are impossible. I'm pointing out, quite correctly, that we've been successfully making societies work against other human tendencies, putting his claim into question.
The difference is that every human being has strong in-group instincts, or at least the vast majority do. Not every person has a nearly irresistible urge to rape or murder.

Society can get by alright with the occasional person who breaches the peace with a rape or a murder, as long as this number is kept as low as possible.

Among a larger swath of society, it is okay if there exist strong but controlled urges toward those behaviors because as long as the behavior itself doesn't take place, the social order will be okay.

So you start with a much smaller percentage of the populace with such urges, then an even smaller number with those urges in a strong form, then a much much smaller percentage who actually act on them. This ends up being within tolerances.

Regarding racial feelings of mistrust and allegiance, however, the situation differs. Society requires people to trust one another and to view strangers as valid members of their group. Racial diversity undermines that. It undermines the trust and effortless ability to relate to strangers that a really functional society requires. It is also not a direct action like a rape or a murder, usually. Just even having those feelings of mistrust about others around you poisons the whole societal experience and all the interactions.

It can also flare up in a very dangerous way under certain conditions. We've lost the ability already to be a society that can look at cases which involve multiple races of people with any sort of dispassion or objectivity at all. Race riots and such are also symptoms of how these (at best) dormant or well-hidden group loyalties can flare up and I do firmly believe they are in the process of flaring up in a civilization-ending way now.

A lot of you who think this can "work" have really just been misinterpreting what was going on. It was having a (very poor) illusion of functioning because of an overwhelming white majority who'd been talked into working very hard to disavow their own racial interests and tolerate others.

That's going away.
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Old 5th February 2019, 10:45 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
The difference is that every human being has strong in-group instincts, or at least the vast majority do. Not every person has a nearly irresistible urge to rape or murder.
Don't be coy. What you describe is not irresistible, nearly or otherwise, and almost every person has aggressive and sexual tendencies that can be hard to resist, among other tendencies, and we've managed to do fine regardless.

The problem with your ideology is that you are taking facts and twisting them to justify a conclusion that they do not support simply by expanding these facts and exaggerating them, fooling exactly no one but yourself.
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Old 5th February 2019, 10:51 AM   #109
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One prediction I make:

Those who yearn for an "honest discussion about race" are in for a very long wait.
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Old 5th February 2019, 10:53 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
One prediction I make:

Those who yearn for an "honest discussion about race" are in for a very long wait.
Hey, I'll take that over the discussions we're currently having.

You go first.
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Old 5th February 2019, 11:02 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
He has owned up to doing something stupid, which he regrets...

DURING A PUBLICITY INTERVIEW FOR HIS LATEST TOUGH GUY FILM

ooooo!
I'm not sure what the shouting and the sarcasm is intended to convey, but yes, exactly. This seems like a terrible choice of personal anecdotes, for drumming up interest in a film.
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Old 5th February 2019, 11:03 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Hey, I'll take that over the discussions we're currently having.

You go first.
I think there's two people in this thread having an honest discussion about race: Skeptic Tank and Liam Neeson.
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Old 5th February 2019, 11:04 AM   #113
Delphic Oracle
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Hey, I'll take that over the discussions we're currently having.

You go first.
This is not an environment that is conducive to honesty. Quite a few signs of the opposite, in fact.
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Old 5th February 2019, 11:07 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
This is not an environment that is conducive to honesty.
Why not? I'm game for it if you are. Forget everybody else. Humour me.
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Old 5th February 2019, 11:28 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Why not? I'm game for it if you are. Forget everybody else. Humour me.
You apparently think I have a lot more to say on this than I do.

Sorry?
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Old 5th February 2019, 11:40 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
I still think it's an odd thing to say. And to be fair, it's an odd thing to do - go out looking for a black man because his friend had been raped by a black man. I could understand if he tracked down a rapist with the intent of giving him a beating. Maybe Guinness had something to do with it.

Alec Guinness put him up to it?! That bastard!!
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Old 5th February 2019, 11:40 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
You apparently think I have a lot more to say on this than I do.

Sorry?


Ok so you want other people to have an honest discussion about race.
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Old 5th February 2019, 11:41 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Alec Guinness put him up to it?! That bastard!!
Frowned upon ITT
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Old 5th February 2019, 11:42 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Is there any evidence he reacted as he did only because the perpetrator was black?
Yes, because he went out looking for a black bastard to kill. Had the perpetrator not been black then killing a black man in revenge would seem counter intuitive
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Old 5th February 2019, 11:46 AM   #120
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Maybe Liam Neeson was on the streets of Chicago in the wee hours of a winter morning, about to get his hate crime on... Then, at the last minute, "hey, aren't you that gay black guy from Empire? My bad! Here's your sandwich back. Sorry about the rib!"
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