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Old 7th February 2019, 07:07 AM   #321
angrysoba
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
He did not say he was looking for a black man to kill.

He said "I went up and down areas with a cosh, hoping I’d be approached by somebody, I’m ashamed to say that and I did it for maybe a week, hoping some ‘black bastard’ would come out of a pub and have a go at me about something, you know? So that I could...kill him".

There was more than just the colour of the skin involved. Neeson was looking for a fight and non aggressive people who did not threaten him were not at risk.
He was looking for a black man to kill, then.
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Old 7th February 2019, 07:16 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
He was looking for a black man to kill, then.
Saying it that way makes it sound like he was only looking for a black man. In fact he was looking for a very particular black man. Indeed, it was such a small subset of all black men, not surprisingly he failed to find one.
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Old 7th February 2019, 08:08 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Saying it that way makes it sound like he was only looking for a black man. In fact he was looking for a very particular black man. Indeed, it was such a small subset of all black men, not surprisingly he failed to find one.
Taken 4: “I have a very particular set of skills and a very particular target who can be any colour you like, as long as he’s a black bastard!”

The character really would be considered racist or certainly the action racist. There’s not really any way you can dress it up.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 7th February 2019, 08:09 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Not really, because Bronson went after the gangs who were terrorising NY subways.
No, he went after muggers and street criminals in general. There is a subway scene in the film, but just the one.
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Old 7th February 2019, 08:15 AM   #325
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Well, one thing's for sure: This incident was well used as a motivation to perform an effective line for his character, to the point that it has become famous and iconic all over the world. Everyone knows Neeson for his "I have a special set of skills" line. It shows that it was really convincing, and that's because he borrowed from a real experience. One where he didn't actually hurt anyone, and which he also used to meditate on his actions and learn that he was acting like a douche.

I see nothing but wins here.
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Old 7th February 2019, 08:27 AM   #326
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Taken 4: “I have a very particular set of skills and a very particular target who can be any colour you like, as long as he’s a black bastard!”

The character really would be considered racist or certainly the action racist. There’s not really any way you can dress it up.
I am reporting all he said, not just one bit about colour.
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Old 7th February 2019, 08:36 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I am reporting all he said, not just one bit about colour.
I'm not sure a yellow card can be levied against a non-member.
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Old 7th February 2019, 08:42 AM   #328
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Saying it that way makes it sound like he was only looking for a black man. In fact he was looking for a very particular black man. Indeed, it was such a small subset of all black men, not surprisingly he failed to find one.
I took it as him looking for any black man who might confront him, not the specific black man who raped his friend.
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Old 7th February 2019, 08:45 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
I'm not sure a yellow card can be levied against a non-member.
Well, Neeson has surely been red-carded.
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Old 7th February 2019, 11:21 AM   #330
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I get a kick out of this thread. Everyone thinks they kniw how they would react when they are in an emotional state and of course their thinking woukd be perfectly clear and rational.

That is the epitome of delusion.

Study after study shows that no one has any clue how they would react and that people are up to 4 times more likely to do something in an emotional state that they claimed they wouldn't do when in a non-emotional state.

And it isn't just anger. It can be sexual arousal, happiness, sadness, etc.

Neeson is pretty much normal. Move along.
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Old 7th February 2019, 11:56 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
To be fair, if she had told him "white", it isn't likely he would have gone out looking for white guys to beat on. There would have to be some identifiable trait that the perp had, but which Neeson didn't share, something that made him unmistakably part of "THEM", and then he goes after one of "THEM".

It's not admirable. That's the point. It made him realize just how irrational it was, and he grew from it. It doesn't make me think of him as an awesome fella, but he's still a good actor and he makes movies that are good, and people shouldn't be boycotted because they revealed some sort of bad behavior from their past. It's crazy. Everyone will be looking over their shoulder wondering who might find out that they once did something that they wouldn't do 20 years later.
He wouldn't have called them a 'white bastard' though, would he?

Whilst Neeson is contrite, he isn't about the racism. He puts his violent feelings down to a 'primeval urge', not racism.
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Old 7th February 2019, 12:00 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...-a8760896.html

What he said;

“There’s something primal – God forbid you’ve ever had a member of your family hurt under criminal conditions,”

That is directly related to the film Cold Pursuit and its theme.

"“I’ll tell you a story. This is true.”

I have my doubts it is true as he relates it and he describes a friend telling him she had been raped.

"“She handled the situation of the rape in the most extraordinary way, but my immediate reaction was…I asked, did she know who it was? No. What colour were they? She said it was a black person."

It is odd, considering the demographics of Ireland, especially them, he asked immediately about colour. I suspect faulty memory there.

“I went up and down areas with a cosh, hoping I’d be approached by somebody –"

He was not actually out to target a black person, there had to be an approach by that person, there needed to more than just being black.

"“I went up and down areas with a cosh, hoping I’d be approached by somebody, I’m ashamed to say that and I did it for maybe a week, hoping some ‘black bastard’ would come out of a pub and have a go at me about something, you know? So that I could...kill him.”

He is, from the outset making it clear he was wrong and he knows it. He also reiterates that it was not just looking for a black person, it was for a black person who had a go at him.

"It was horrible, horrible, when I think back, that I did that"....“It’s awful, but I did learn a lesson from it, when I eventually thought, ‘What the **** are you doing,’ you know?”

Remorse, a realisation he was wrong and he stopped himself.

So, what we have here is someone saying, many years ago I did something really stupid which I regret and am sorry for. The reaction to that is for a mob to descend on him and behave in a nasty, unforgiving and frankly hypocritical way.
He's not really. He's looking for approval.
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Old 7th February 2019, 12:03 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
I get a kick out of this thread. Everyone thinks they kniw how they would react when they are in an emotional state and of course their thinking woukd be perfectly clear and rational.

That is the epitome of delusion.

Study after study shows that no one has any clue how they would react and that people are up to 4 times more likely to do something in an emotional state that they claimed they wouldn't do when in a non-emotional state.

And it isn't just anger. It can be sexual arousal, happiness, sadness, etc.

Neeson is pretty much normal. Move along.
Heh. I guess I can't really say that if I were giving that interview, I wouldn't stupidly volunteer some pants-on-head-retarded confession, and torpedo the promotional tour I'm supposed to be on.
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Old 7th February 2019, 12:05 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
He did not say he was looking for a black man to kill.

He said "I went up and down areas with a cosh, hoping I’d be approached by somebody, I’m ashamed to say that and I did it for maybe a week, hoping some ‘black bastard’ would come out of a pub and have a go at me about something, you know? So that I could...kill him".

There was more than just the colour of the skin involved. Neeson was looking for a fight and non aggressive people who did not threaten him were not at risk.
So it's justifiable to break the law - which he did by arming himself with an offensive weapon in a public place - by pleading 'primeval urge'?

'Er, M'Lud, the shop assistant was looking at me funny, so I 'ad this urge to nick 'is goods, innit? Awfully sorry, M'Lud, but it wasn't shoplifting, it was my primeval urge, innit, what I've got no control over.'
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Old 7th February 2019, 12:10 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
I get where you're coming from. I also don't think he was looking to punish 'the black race' for some kind of shared racial responsibility for the rape. In fact I don't think he was thinking much at all.
But I'd also say that being ready to attack a random stranger who shares a characteristic with a bad person is by definition an example of bias, even if there's no underlying ideology.
It just so happens that the bias turned out to be racial in this instance. Does not make him a racist, just an idiot who was thinking about doing something racist. I suppose I kind of get how you think that dilutes the meaning of racism...

And yes, I do think that if the situation had been different, and he'd been looking for a German/English/ginger/fat bastard to pick a fight, there wouldn't have been an outcry like this.


Racial tensions in the US make this particular version of events stand out more.



I'm a Toydarian, mind tricks don't work on me.
Maybe such a person wouldn't have stirred his 'primeval urges' as much as a 'black bastard' could.
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Old 7th February 2019, 12:45 PM   #336
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Here's some (black) guy giving us his opinion

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I AGREE
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Old 7th February 2019, 12:52 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Here's some (black) guy giving us his opinion

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I AGREE
Argumentum ad YouTubum
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Old 7th February 2019, 01:07 PM   #338
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What argument?
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Old 7th February 2019, 01:43 PM   #339
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All we need now is Gazza to weigh in.
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Old 7th February 2019, 01:44 PM   #340
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So it's justifiable to break the law - which he did by arming himself with an offensive weapon in a public place - by pleading 'primeval urge'?

'Er, M'Lud, the shop assistant was looking at me funny, so I 'ad this urge to nick 'is goods, innit? Awfully sorry, M'Lud, but it wasn't shoplifting, it was my primeval urge, innit, what I've got no control over.'
No one is defending what he did, including him.
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Old 7th February 2019, 01:46 PM   #341
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I think everyone agrees what he did was wrong. The disagreement is over how wrong it was and how much he should be condemned for it.

I say it was very stupid and since he admitted it was very stupid from the start, he should be subject to minimal condemnation.
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Old 7th February 2019, 01:56 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
He wouldn't have called them a 'white bastard' though, would he?

Whilst Neeson is contrite, he isn't about the racism. He puts his violent feelings down to a 'primeval urge', not racism.
Right, I forgot those were mutually exclusive.
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Old 7th February 2019, 02:51 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I think everyone agrees what he did was wrong. The disagreement is over how wrong it was and how much he should be condemned for it.

I say it was very stupid and since he admitted it was very stupid from the start, he should be subject to minimal condemnation.
The only thing I'm condemning him for is needlessly inviting condemnation from SJWs.
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Old 7th February 2019, 03:12 PM   #344
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...-a8760896.html

What he said;

“There’s something primal – God forbid you’ve ever had a member of your family hurt under criminal conditions,”

That is directly related to the film Cold Pursuit and its theme.

"“I’ll tell you a story. This is true.”

I have my doubts it is true as he relates it and he describes a friend telling him she had been raped.

"“She handled the situation of the rape in the most extraordinary way, but my immediate reaction was…I asked, did she know who it was? No. What colour were they? She said it was a black person."

-- snip --

Remorse, a realisation he was wrong and he stopped himself.

So, what we have here is someone saying, many years ago I did something really stupid which I regret and am sorry for. The reaction to that is for a mob to descend on him and behave in a nasty, unforgiving and frankly hypocritical way.

I admire his honesty. Too many people think humans should be infallible these days. We are just "advanced" animals trying our best to act civilized around each other.

Nobody is perfect, everyone has prejudice. It is in our DNA.

This pettiness just gets worse every day. What happened to tolerance? Even when someone is being introspective and honest they get the Outrage Machine after them.
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Old 7th February 2019, 04:32 PM   #345
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I admire his honesty. Too many people think humans should be infallible these days. We are just "advanced" animals trying our best to act civilized around each other.

Nobody is perfect, everyone has prejudice. It is in our DNA.

This pettiness just gets worse every day. What happened to tolerance? Even when someone is being introspective and honest they get the Outrage Machine after them.
Rii-ight. So we should have a let-it-all-hang-out hate fest of all the nasty horrible things we've ever thought, said or did.
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Old 7th February 2019, 05:27 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
I get a kick out of this thread. Everyone thinks they kniw how they would react when they are in an emotional state and of course their thinking woukd be perfectly clear and rational.

That is the epitome of delusion.

Study after study shows that no one has any clue how they would react and that people are up to 4 times more likely to do something in an emotional state that they claimed they wouldn't do when in a non-emotional state.

And it isn't just anger. It can be sexual arousal, happiness, sadness, etc.

Neeson is pretty much normal. Move along.
I don’t know if anyone is saying how they would react in an emotional state let alone “everyone”.

I think we can all agree that Neeson was emotional and irrational and indeed that it is normal to be irrational in those circumstances. No argument from me on that score.

I think most of us would also agree that racism is irrational (except Skeptic Tank).

But it is racist to go looking for an innocent black man to kill in revenge for a crime he didn’t commit if the specific reason for killing him is the colour of his skin. That seems pretty unequivocal to me despite all the mental gymnastics about how he might have killed a Lithuanian...

Does it mean he himself is currently racist? I think, no.
Does it mean he used to be some kind of full-on racist? I think, no, it doesn’t mean that.
Does it mean he should be pilloried and blacklisted... er, I mean refused work on the basis of his comments? I think it need not, but I also wouldn’t blame a production company that said, “yeah, let’s NOT hire Liam Neeson for our next film.”
Does it mean I know exactly how I would react in a similar situation? No.
Am I purer than the driven snow? No.
Have I ever thought, said and done racist things? Yes. We all have.
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Old 7th February 2019, 05:51 PM   #347
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
But it is racist to go looking for an innocent black man to kill in revenge for a crime he didn’t commit if the specific reason for killing him is the colour of his skin.
I disagree. He wasn't going to kill him because he was black but because he was a violent rapist. If the person had been a violent, East Indian rapist, Neeson would have went after a violent East Indian not a black person.He didn't hate the guy, or even judge him, based on his skin colour. He judged the person based on their being a violent rapist.

That's not racism.
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Old 7th February 2019, 06:03 PM   #348
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
I disagree. He wasn't going to kill him because he was black but because he was a violent rapist. If the person had been a violent, East Indian rapist, Neeson would have went after a violent East Indian not a black person.He didn't hate the guy, or even judge him, based on his skin colour. He judged the person based on their being a violent rapist.

That's not racism.


Huh!? No, you clearly misunderstand. He wasn’t looking for the rapist. He was looking for someone who was the same colour as the rapist. That’s all and that’s racism.
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Old 7th February 2019, 06:21 PM   #349
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post

Huh!? No, you clearly misunderstand. He wasn’t looking for the rapist. He was looking for someone who was the same colour as the rapist. That’s all and that’s racism.
He wasn't looking for him because he was black. He was looking for a black person but not because he was black.
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Old 7th February 2019, 06:25 PM   #350
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
He was looking for a black person but not because he was black.
That kinda sounds contradictory.
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Old 7th February 2019, 06:34 PM   #351
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That kinda sounds contradictory.
How so? If he was killing someone because they were black any black person would do. He wanted to kill someone because they were violent not because of their skin colour.
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Old 7th February 2019, 06:36 PM   #352
angrysoba
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
He wasn't looking for him because he was black. He was looking for a black person but not because he was black.
He was looking for a black man - not a black rapist! - and the reason why he was looking for a black man was because a black man raped his friend. It was immaterial for him whether the hypothetical black man he killed was a rapist. His criteria for killing was “black bastard” not “violent rapist”.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 7th February 2019, 06:40 PM   #353
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
How so? If he was killing someone because they were black any black person would do. He wanted to kill someone because they were violent not because of their skin colour.
No, not “because they were violent”. He wanted to get into a confrontation with a black man and it was important that they were black.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 7th February 2019, 06:45 PM   #354
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
No, not “because they were violent”. He wanted to get into a confrontation with a black man and it was important that they were black.
No, they had to be violent. He was very clear they had to "come at him." Race was secondary. If it was primary, any black man would have satisfied him.
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Old 7th February 2019, 06:50 PM   #355
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
He was looking for a black man - not a black rapist! - and the reason why he was looking for a black man was because a black man raped his friend. It was immaterial for him whether the hypothetical black man he killed was a rapist. His criteria for killing was “black bastard” not “violent rapist”.
Black bastard =/= black man.

bas·tard
noun
1. INFORMAL, an unpleasant or despicable person.
"he lied to me, the bastard!"

synonyms: scoundrel, villain, rogue, rascal, brute, animal, weasel, snake, monster, ogre, wretch, devil, good-for-nothing, reprobate, wrongdoer, evil-doer;
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Old 7th February 2019, 06:55 PM   #356
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Rii-ight. So we should have a let-it-all-hang-out hate fest of all the nasty horrible things we've ever thought, said or did.
Rule of so...

Why must an appeal to using the opportunity for more than just ridicule and condemnation mean that anyone wants to celebrate bad behavior?
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Old 7th February 2019, 07:21 PM   #357
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Black bastard =/= black man.

bas·tard
noun
1. INFORMAL, an unpleasant or despicable person.
"he lied to me, the bastard!"

synonyms: scoundrel, villain, rogue, rascal, brute, animal, weasel, snake, monster, ogre, wretch, devil, good-for-nothing, reprobate, wrongdoer, evil-doer;
This is very desperate. Or maybe he was looking for an illegitimate black man, right?
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 7th February 2019, 07:22 PM   #358
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
No, they had to be violent. He was very clear they had to "come at him." Race was secondary. If it was primary, any black man would have satisfied him.
Race was not secondary.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 7th February 2019, 07:33 PM   #359
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
No, they had to be violent. He was very clear they had to "come at him." Race was secondary. If it was primary, any black man would have satisfied him.
I get the feeling that it more of a vigilante style behavior than anything else. He went out as "bait", hoping that a street thug would give him an excuse to pop someone with a crowbar. Oh, and by the way, he expected the person who would attack him to be black, just like the one who raped his friend, and just like an awful lot of street criminals in those days.

I remember the '70s, '80s, and early '90s. Crime was going up, up, up. People didn't feel safe, and for very good reason, and especially "urban youth", i.e. black teenagers, were pretty darned scary. Jesse Jackson famously once said he was frightened when being followed by young black people. I guess Jesse was racist? I'm pretty sure this is the era that Liam Neeson is talking about.

I remember Bernard Goetz, the "subway vigilante". Just in case there are youngsters in the audience, he was on the New York City subway when he was approached by four black youths. He shot them. No one was killed, but one of them was paralyzed. There was a lot of debate about whether or not he was just racist. He was acquitted. The jury bought his reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm self defense argument, because they would have been afraid, too. And it turned out that one of the youths who was shot later admitted that they were, in fact, planning on mugging him.

By coincidence, as that trial was raging, I was briefly held hostage by two armed robbers who were robbing the Wendy's that my girlfriend and I were eating in. I remember thinking that I was glad Bernard Goetz wasn't there, because he might miss, and that would be bad. A couple of weeks later, we were telling the story to a friend's father and he asked, trying to sound casual, "Couple of white guys?" We knew what he meant, and we informed him that no, they were in fact African Americans.

So, that's the environment Neeson was in. At least in the US, it was an era where we were all afraid on the streets, and street crime was disproportionately committed by blacks, and then his friend or relative got raped by a black man. I think it set him off, and he picked up a crowbar, and hit the streets hoping that someone would "make his day."

ETA: And I don't plan on seeing this movie, but I might some day, and his brief encounter with blind rage, lust for revenge, and some element of racism will make no difference to me at all. It was a long time ago, and he got over it, so that has nothing to do with why I won't see the movie. Oh, and, by the way, the characters on the screen are just being played by actors. They aren't really the people portrayed in the movie. The reason I don't plan on seeing the movie is that I seriously doubt it could be as good as "Taken", so I would expect that it would just feel like a disappointing sequel.

Last edited by Meadmaker; 7th February 2019 at 07:41 PM.
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Old 7th February 2019, 07:35 PM   #360
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
This is very desperate. Or maybe he was looking for an illegitimate black man, right?
In your view then, rapists aren't "bastards" they are "black men."

Each to their own, I guess.
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