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Tags conservatism , conservatives , donald trump , george will , Max Boot , republican party

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Old 12th July 2018, 11:47 AM   #81
tyr_13
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Originally Posted by ThoughtIsFree View Post
Thanks for all the useful information and I look forward to participating. I had forgotten how time consuming this is.
It really is! The main reason I don't post often any longer, although I do lurk a bit.

You will get some flack from some people if you are too busy to build perfect posts and whatnot, but simply saying you don't have the time to thoroughly investigate a detail is often seen by many here as fair.

But keep in mind; even if you weren't going to present an argument you believe here it is also time consuming to support your own views using critical thinking and valid evidence. Trying to justify it to others is a mechanism that can force you to justify, rationally, the belief for yourself.

Which is the main reason I still post here.
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Old 12th July 2018, 12:31 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
It's very liberal and it's expected that if you make a claim (e.g., Obama vs Trump job creation) you should be prepared to back it up with a reputable source.
Quote:
Even if some minds are closed, information is exchanged. And people do change their minds
I don't remember anyone ever changing their minds on the forums I've posted on. I look forward to that experience.



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You can put spaces in the links.
I'll do that, I'm still researching immigration, a lot to take in and who knows what sources are accurate. I'm reading government websites right now but not getting all the information I'm after. I know journalist who are liberal tend to twist their information to satisfy their leftist views and same with conservatives. Shoot you can't get honest answers from any of our Politicians, can you? I've been going with what I think is the true but I could be wrong and I want to know the facts.



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This happened under Obama, and here's a wonderful breakdown of the differences between the two administrations:



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No, those are actual cages.
I'm not changing my opinion on the places I've seen where children are detained, I don't view it as cages. I see the detention area as the safest way to keep the kids at bay and give them security. I don't think a play pen or crib is a cage either.
I feel bad for the children and the parents, it's a horrible situation to find yourself in.

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Yes, because they were forcibly separated from their parents to deter others from coming here. That is state-sanctioned child abuse.
I don't know if children being separated from their parents was solely done as a deterrent. I'm considering they decided to separate the children from adults, parents etc and decided it may serve as a deterrent as an after thought. In the beginning they were saying the children were separated because the adult or parent was under arrest and being detained in a separate area. Like if you were arrested and had your child with you, the child would not go to jail with you. I can't find what I think are actual facts about all taking place. If i knew the actually facts I may not agree with all taking place but can't find enough information that I feel is the truth in order to form an opinion. I do want a secure border and to stop illegal immigration. I'm in favor of keeping the Dreamers and not making them leave.
I'm trying to find out why all of these people come to America illegally, who is sending them here and what do they really know about what will happen to them once they're here?



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A cage, in other words.
Nope not a cage, a large room with see through walls.



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Source for this claim? The government is still trying to reunite separated families, weeks later. Can you imagine what that would be like for a little kid? And these kids then have to go to court:

"Immigration Judge John W. Richardson, who presided over the boy’s case, told the lawyer representing Johan that he was “embarrassed” to ask if the boy could understand the court proceedings.

“I’m embarrassed to ask it, because I don’t know who you would explain it to, unless you think that a 1-year-old could learn immigration law,” Richardson said."



It's like something out of Kafka.
I realize the immigration issues are something that is causing a lot of stress and emotional hardship for many. In our Country kids are separated from their parents everyday, a very sad situation. A lot of these kids coming into America illegally were in bad environments before coming here. I'm sure many of the children are traumatized and will suffer from all their emotional abuse for years to come, hopefully not the younger ones but who knows.



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"our"? You mean the GOP? You guys control Congress, what are you waiting for?
Heck if I know they don't agree on everything in the bill, nothing new.



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There are two issues at play:
A) can a racist be a "good person"? It depends. We all have latent prejudices. My parents are stereotypical old white bigots. They're good people. They also don't fall in with people carrying tiki torches chanting "Jews will not replace us", as is what happened at Charlottesville[/url]. And one of those "fine people" murdered a woman with his car. People seem to forget about that. So, were the racists at Charlottesville "fine people"? No.

B). This is an easy one. Elected officials should NEVER condone racism. If a person condones racism, as Trump did, it is valid to assume that person is racist. And in Trump's case, there is a lot of racist behavior going on over the years.
I agree Trump said the wrong thing by saying some were fine people. He made a mistake, I hope, I'm not seeing him as racist but I do know he's not a Politician and this is new to him. I expected many mistakes from Trump.




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Excellent. So what do you think of Trump's effort to spread a lie that Obama wasn't born here? That's pretty sleazy, isn't it? Pretty dishonest? And 51% of Republicans STILL believe he was born in Kenya . What do you think about that?
Seems to me Trump really thought Obama was not a citizen.



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Remember when all those jobs were being created under Obama? What did Republicans always talk about? The labor participation rate. It's the percentage of people who can work who are actually working. Let's see how it's been doing under Trump. It was 62.9% in Jan of 2017. It's currently 62.9%[/url]. Why do you think there's been zero growth?

Let's look at the deficit under Trump and his GOP controlled Congress:
2017: $666 billion
2018: $530 billion, so far, on track for about $800 billion.

So, if you throw a trillion dollars at the economy and slash environmental regulations, you're going to get some GDP growth. Not the 3% that Trump promised though: the last two quarters have been below 3%:
I'm not the smartest person when understanding all involved with economics.
I do know the US is doing well right now with job growth, unemployment etc. Have no idea how long it's going to last.

I do know with the Harley Davidson Plant they are having problems and closed a big plant in Ks or maybe it was Mo. The Harley is not selling like it once was. Didn't especially like hearing Trump make a threat to Harley Davidson if they took their manufacturing out of the Country but that's Trump. He does a lot of things I don't care for.



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I had a foolish hope that Trump would grow into the job. It was foolish because I knew he was a narcissist. This is the Mayo Clinic's definition of Narcissistic Personality Disorder:

"Narcissistic personality disorder — one of several types of personality disorders — is a mental condition in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for excessive attention and admiration, troubled relationships, and a lack of empathy for others. But behind this mask of extreme confidence lies a fragile self-esteem that's vulnerable to the slightest criticism.

A narcissistic personality disorder causes problems in many areas of life, such as relationships, work, school or financial affairs. People with narcissistic personality disorder may be generally unhappy and disappointed when they're not given the special favors or admiration they believe they deserve. They may find their relationships unfulfilling, and others may not enjoy being around them.
"

Remind you of anyone?
I too am still waiting for him to grow into the job. Yes that description fits but I'm not a psychologist or psychiatrist. He's got some issues but hopefully his Presidency will turn out well for us. This tariff thingy has me on edge, what a risk he's taking.

I haven't a clue how the Trump Presidency is going to end, hopefully good but I think anything is possible.

Last edited by ThoughtIsFree; 12th July 2018 at 12:49 PM. Reason: added quotes I forgot and fixed a typo
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Old 12th July 2018, 12:45 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
It really is! The main reason I don't post often any longer, although I do lurk a bit.

You will get some flack from some people if you are too busy to build perfect posts and whatnot, but simply saying you don't have the time to thoroughly investigate a detail is often seen by many here as fair.

But keep in mind; even if you weren't going to present an argument you believe here it is also time consuming to support your own views using critical thinking and valid evidence. Trying to justify it to others is a mechanism that can force you to justify, rationally, the belief for yourself.

Which is the main reason I still post here.
I agree, debating or discussing issues on chat forums is a great way to learn, I have done much more research and understand issues so much better than I did before I started sharing about Politics on a chat forum. It takes time but I find it's worth it.
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Old 12th July 2018, 01:34 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
You think Mayo's NPD description matches Obama? Troubled relationships? Financial problems? Lack of empathy? Vulnerable to the slightest criticism? Deep need for excessive admiration? I'm not seeing that. I don't see it with Bush Jr, Clinton, Bush Sr, or Reagan, either. Nixon was before my time.
Politicians are not limited to POTUS or those who are former POTUS.
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Old 12th July 2018, 01:48 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
Politicians are not limited to POTUS or those who are former POTUS.
I mentioned POTUS's because everyone is familiar with them and, by virtue of the position, we get extraordinary amounts of data on their behavior. I don't doubt there are narcissistic politicians all over the place, if that was your point, but if it was, it's a point that's trivially true. But to have a narcissist as a President is quite a different thing. Going back 100 years, I can only think of one other, and that's iffy: Nixon.

ETA: And to have a narcissist as President in the nuclear age is very concerning. I don't think Trump can launch a senseless nuclear attack (I think Mattis and everyone down the line would oppose it), but I'm not 100% sure about that, and it alarms me, because I'm sure that Trump is capable of ordering such an attack.

Last edited by Fudbucker; 12th July 2018 at 01:53 PM.
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Old 12th July 2018, 02:34 PM   #86
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Actually, as a conservative, it was Trump's economic approach that was the kicker for me to leave the Republican Party. I'm afraid his approach could lead to real long term damage to the economy.

Still not joining the Democrats though.
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Old 12th July 2018, 04:12 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
I mentioned POTUS's because everyone is familiar with them and, by virtue of the position, we get extraordinary amounts of data on their behavior. I don't doubt there are narcissistic politicians all over the place, if that was your point, but if it was, it's a point that's trivially true. But to have a narcissist as a President is quite a different thing. Going back 100 years, I can only think of one other, and that's iffy: Nixon.

ETA: And to have a narcissist as President in the nuclear age is very concerning. I don't think Trump can launch a senseless nuclear attack (I think Mattis and everyone down the line would oppose it), but I'm not 100% sure about that, and it alarms me, because I'm sure that Trump is capable of ordering such an attack.


Begging the question.


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Old 12th July 2018, 07:13 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Begging the question.


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Are you still questioning whether Trump has NPD? Good lord.
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Old 13th July 2018, 05:58 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Are you still questioning whether Trump has NPD? Good lord.
He denies that there is any way for you to know that. Not quite the same thing, but I assume it makes it easier to rationalize having voted for such an obviously abnormal person.
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Old 13th July 2018, 06:08 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Actually, as a conservative, it was Trump's economic approach that was the kicker for me to leave the Republican Party. I'm afraid his approach could lead to real long term damage to the economy.

Still not joining the Democrats though.
But not his flirting with racists? Interesting.

Anyrate, I agree, he's not a conservative and the GOP has lost any pretense at being anything but a tribe at this point. I've been listening to a bunch of conservative podcast since he got the nomination, its pretty interesting to listen to the few that hold on to conservatism over loyalty. They like a lot of what trump is doing domestically, judges and rolling back the regulatory state but find everything else about him repugnant.

One of them had a great line regarding Trumps dealing with NATO. "As usually, he's down the street and around the corner from a valid point."
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Old 13th July 2018, 01:31 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
But not his flirting with racists? Interesting.

Anyrate, I agree, he's not a conservative and the GOP has lost any pretense at being anything but a tribe at this point. I've been listening to a bunch of conservative podcast since he got the nomination, its pretty interesting to listen to the few that hold on to conservatism over loyalty. They like a lot of what trump is doing domestically, judges and rolling back the regulatory state but find everything else about him repugnant.

One of them had a great line regarding Trumps dealing with NATO. "As usually, he's down the street and around the corner from a valid point."
His flirting with racists was why I already did not like candidate Trump, among other things. When the party betrayed any principles it had with regards to economics, by throwing its weight behind Trump, I left the party - it had totally deserted anything attracting me to it at that point.

If you are implying I am racist, you are wrong

If you are saying I associate at times with racists, well I have racist relatives, have had racist coworkers, and have very probably bought and sold things from and to racists. If the opportunity permits, I make my views known with such folks. If I believe I can influence them to be more non-racist, I will make an effort to do so.
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Old 13th July 2018, 01:38 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
His flirting with racists was why I already did not like candidate Trump, among other things. When the party betrayed any principles it had with regards to economics, by throwing its weight behind Trump, I left the party - it had totally deserted anything attracting me to it at that point.

If you are implying I am racist, you are wrong

If you are saying I associate at times with racists, well I have racist relatives, have had racist coworkers, and have very probably bought and sold things from and to racists. If the opportunity permits, I make my views known with such folks. If I believe I can influence them to be more non-racist, I will make an effort to do so.
As his remarks in the UK on European immigratation show,Trump is not flirting with racists, he is having full intercourse with them.
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Old 13th July 2018, 01:39 PM   #93
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Max Boot is not asking people to join the Democratic Party;he makes clear he had considerable distate for a lot of Democrats and their policies;but he thinks putting at least one part of government in a position to block Trump has become critical to saving Democracy in the US.
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Old 13th July 2018, 01:49 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
His flirting with racists was why I already did not like candidate Trump, among other things. When the party betrayed any principles it had with regards to economics, by throwing its weight behind Trump, I left the party - it had totally deserted anything attracting me to it at that point.

If you are implying I am racist, you are wrong

If you are saying I associate at times with racists, well I have racist relatives, have had racist coworkers, and have very probably bought and sold things from and to racists. If the opportunity permits, I make my views known with such folks. If I believe I can influence them to be more non-racist, I will make an effort to do so.
Perhaps I was a bit harsh. It just struck me as an odd place to draw the line. Now if you had left once it was clear that the majority of the party was lining up behind trump in a fit tribalism, which has happened after his flirting with racists, I would have understood. That's basically where I've stopped trying to defend them. 80-90% have a favorable attitude to a guy that flirts with racists, regularly says clearly offensive things to allies while complimenting hostile dictators, and pursues policies that are quite contradictory to previous conservative positions.
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Old 13th July 2018, 02:13 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Okay, I will. I figure both ends of the political spectrum have their loony fringe elements. I also figure that only the Right have made their loony fringe mainstream.



Denies children are being held in cages…



… goes on to literally describe a cage.



Nicely put. I’m sure the other forum conservatives are glad to have you aboard and look forward to more statements like this in support of your shared ideology.



Your criticisms of the Left, however, are a breath of fresh air.



Please describe in detail how exactly Trump has “accomplished” those things, and please identify the metrics being used to quantify these “accomplishments” that differ from the ones we were told were inaccurate when we had job growth and low unemployment under Obama.

Well this ought to go well.
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Old 13th July 2018, 02:30 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Max Boot is not asking people to join the Democratic Party;he makes clear he had considerable distate for a lot of Democrats and their policies;but he thinks putting at least one part of government in a position to block Trump has become critical to saving Democracy in the US.
I still will vote for who I think is the best candidate. As I always have. If the Democrats put up a candidate next time around who is, unthinkable as that may be, worse than Trump, I will not vote for them - and if a third party candidate is better than either major party, I will vote for them. Candidates for any office who support Trump will also very probably not get my support, as that shows a severe lack of principle.
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