ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Trials and Errors
 

Notices


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , Amanda Knox , Italy cases , Meredith Kercher , murder cases , Raffaele Sollecito

Reply
Old 13th July 2018, 10:03 AM   #841
Stacyhs
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 3,735
Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
Sometimes I think I'm the only one in the world who likes the M/B report - with the exception of the stuff in it about calunnia.

Then again when I started this I though Hellmann had got it exactly right - that Knox had been convictable but not sentencable on calunnia and innocent of the rest (as was Sollecito).

I turned out to be wrong about calunnia. I hadn't appreciated the nature of the all night interrogation until reading Mignini's own account of it, given to Drew Griffin of CNN in 2010. That was the one where Mignini had to establish he'd asked her no questions, but even with this dubious claim he said he figured out Knox was scared of Lumumba but also that she wished to keep talking.

He intuited all that - and then he said he told her that if she kept talking he act as if "only a notary".

Clearly, Mignini lied to Griffin. He had to because he knew that by asking questions of a suspect (when even Mignini said she was when he unquestioned her) she needed a lawyer and a proper translator.

So he unquestioned her, leading to the 5:45 am, second confession that was markedly different from the one signed at 1:45 am.

It was clear to me by then that Mignini had invented the calunnia charge - which M/B says is the only thing that places Knox at the cottage, which M/B must skate around because the Chieffi court had made calunnia a judicial fact.
But...but...Mignini and the police had no reason to lie about anything!

I think that interview is the one where Mignini also claimed the interrogations weren't recorded due to "budget restraints". Uh-huh. Sure "Mr. 180,000 euros on a 20 minute animation"!
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2018, 12:35 PM   #842
Stacyhs
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 3,735
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
But...but...Mignini and the police had no reason to lie about anything!

I think that interview is the one where Mignini also claimed the interrogations weren't recorded due to "budget restraints". Uh-huh. Sure "Mr. 180,000 euros on a 20 minute animation"!
"budge constraints"
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2018, 06:45 PM   #843
TruthCalls
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,043
Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
One point is that the guilters, with a high degree of consistency, post false and misleading statements about the Knox - Sollecito case.

If they are doing so with intent to deceive (who?), then, as Stacyhs points out, they are lying.
From what I've seen, the majority of guilters that are still around and making such ridiculous claims are the ones who are relying on TJMK and the fake wiki for their information. I've seen arguments that are almost verbatim. I think they are duped into believing these sites are credible, reliable sites and therefore they truly believe they are arguing with truth on their side. So not lying, just incredibly ill-informed.
TruthCalls is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2018, 07:00 PM   #844
Bill Williams
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 13,471
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
But...but...Mignini and the police had no reason to lie about anything!

I think that interview is the one where Mignini also claimed the interrogations weren't recorded due to "budget restraints". Uh-huh. Sure "Mr. 180,000 euros on a 20 minute animation"!
The following is the translated transcript of the relevant part of the Mignini interview with Drew Griffin on CNN in 2010. Note how Mignini manages to suggest that he drew conclusions about Knox without asking her a single question, except for the suggestion that he could act as if "only a notary". He's plain as day about the problem of her now being a suspect, where Article 63 kicks in......
Quote:
0’50’’ Mignini: Oh, the police interrogated her. I was told about it. I wanted to explain this. I remember that I had gone to sleep and the director of the flying squad, Dr. Profazio, called me, because he tells me: “There are developments; Raffaele in fact has denied what he had said before”. So I went down and the head of the flying squad told me what had happened. At some point they tell us that Amanda has made this statement.

And thus her interrogation as a person informed of the facts was suspended by the police in compliance with Article 63 of the Italian Code of Criminal Procedure [c.p.p. - Codice di Procedura Penale], because if evidence appears that incriminates the person, the person being questioned as a person informed of the facts can no longer be heard, and we must stop. “Everyone stop! There must be a defense attorney [present]”. And thus the police stopped and informed Amanda, who had placed herself on the scene of the crime and who said that she had accompanied Lumumba and let him in and that then Lumumba, in the other room, allegedly committed a sexual act and killed Meredith. This is what she said.

2’11’’ Then I was called, I was informed about this, I went to Amanda who, I remember how she was, what she looked like, I remember her very well, she remained imprinted in my memory, I still remember then two things about Amanda that struck me at the time: first, she looked like she was relieved of a burden and second, she was like, and this is another detail that was impressive, it seemed as if she was terrified of Lumumba.

20’48’’ Then I, as I had in some way to, let’s say… this police interrogation had been suspended. At that point I remember that… they made me notice that Amanda, because she wanted to go on talking, I remember she had, like a need to. So I told her: “you can make statements to me; I will not ask questions, since if you make a spontaneous statement and I collect it, I will collect your statement as if I were in fact a notary”. She then repeated [her story] to the interpreter, who was Mrs. Donnino, I remember there was a police woman officer who wrote the statement down [verbalizzava], I did not ask questions. She basically repeated what she had told the police and she signed the statement. Basically I didn’t ask Amanda questions. Not before, since the police asked them and I was not there, and not after, since she made spontaneous statements. Had I been asking her questions, a defense attorney should have been there. This is the procedure.

05’24 CNN: She had an interpreter during the whole time?

05’26’’ Mignini: Yes.

05’29’’ CNN: She says no.

05’32’’ Mignini: Look the interpreter was there, when I heard her there was the interpreter. The interpreter Anna Donnino, who is an interpreter for the police; she was hired by the police.

Just like I believe that there was [before], I do not have the minutes now, but yet now this is a fact, it is undisputed that there was an interpreter.
Note: "it seemed as if she was terrified of Lumumba." Note how Mignini actually admits he doesn't have a clue about the case. Why would Knox be afraid of Lumumba? The later calunnia conviction was because she knew he was not part of the crime. Yet Mignini intuits this "fear" without even asking her about it.

It's clear that Mignini was drinking his own koolade.
__________________
In a thread titled "Who Killed Meredith Kercher?", the answer is obvious. Rudy Guede and no one else.
Bill Williams is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2018, 07:04 PM   #845
Bill Williams
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 13,471
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
But...but...Mignini and the police had no reason to lie about anything!

I think that interview is the one where Mignini also claimed the interrogations weren't recorded due to "budget restraints". Uh-huh. Sure "Mr. 180,000 euros on a 20 minute animation"!
Here's the part of that interview with Drew Griffin where Mignini cited budget issues:
Quote:
12’51’’ CNN: Why wasn’t there any video or transcript of those hours?

13’00’’ Mignini: Look, that’s, I was at the police station, and all the…let’s say…when I made investigations in my own office, I taped them. I taped them, we have an apparatus for that, and I transcribed them. For example, there’s the interrogation of the English girls, Meredith’s friends, it was all taped. The interrogations of Amanda in prison were taped, and then transcribed, and we have the transcripts of… But in a police station, at the very moment of the investigation it isn’t done, not with respect to Amanda or anyone else. Also because, I can tell you, today, even then, but today in particular, we have budget problems, budget problems that are not insignificant, which do not allow us to transcribe. Video is very important…I completely agree with you that videotaping is extremely important, we should be able to have a video recording of every statement [verbale di assunzione di informazioni] made Because what is said is very important, but it’s maybe even more important how it is said, the non-verbal language. Because from the non-verbal language you can [missing words].

15’14’’ Mignini: It isn’t only Amanda, it’s always like that. But I wanted to say that I agree with him that it’s fundamental, only there’s a problem, especially when the witnesses are so numerous, and in fact just recording, I mean recording the sound, isn’t enough according to me.

15’38’’ CNN: It doesn’t cost much, he says.

15’40’’ Mignini: Well we have significant budget problems, that’s what it is.

15’38’’ CNN: So in the end, you did get a confession. But then, everything that was written in the confession became a lie?
Griffin manages to name the relevant issue that a transcript/audio/video of the interrogation would have settled - everything in the written "confession" (that Mignini admits was written by someone other than Knox) turned out to be untrue.....

..... which is one of the classic marks of a false confession.
__________________
In a thread titled "Who Killed Meredith Kercher?", the answer is obvious. Rudy Guede and no one else.
Bill Williams is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 10:13 AM   #846
Stacyhs
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 3,735
It is so clear that Mignini is trying to cover himself regarding his "listening" to Amanda. It makes no sense whatsoever that Amanda, exhausted in the wee hours of the morning, would want to spontaneously repeat what she had (allegedly) already told the police with no prompting whatsoever for him. He's lying. Bald faced lying.

His story about why the interrogations weren't recorded is also blatantly a lie. Recording the interrogations would have cost whatever the tapes cost....a few euros. The rooms were already set up to record. They had the money for recording the other witnesses and Amanda and Raffaele in the waiting room but not the two most critical interrogations of all? Only fools believe that. They either didn't want to record them or they did and got rid of them because they supported A's and R's accounts. There is no other credible explanation.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 10:27 AM   #847
Bill Williams
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 13,471
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
It is so clear that Mignini is trying to cover himself regarding his "listening" to Amanda. It makes no sense whatsoever that Amanda, exhausted in the wee hours of the morning, would want to spontaneously repeat what she had (allegedly) already told the police with no prompting whatsoever for him. He's lying. Bald faced lying.

His story about why the interrogations weren't recorded is also blatantly a lie. Recording the interrogations would have cost whatever the tapes cost....a few euros. The rooms were already set up to record. They had the money for recording the other witnesses and Amanda and Raffaele in the waiting room but not the two most critical interrogations of all? Only fools believe that. They either didn't want to record them or they did and got rid of them because they supported A's and R's accounts. There is no other credible explanation.
When Drew Griffin was presenting his interview with Mignini on CNN, he verbally related an anecdote that had not made it into what CNN had recorded.

Griffin said that the next morning he'd spied Mignini on the other side of the street walking to work. Mignini also spied Griffin and crossed the street, meaning that it was Mignini who'd initiated the contact. Griffin did not relate how the translation occurred, so take it for what it's worth (I have no idea if Griffin spoke Italian or if Mignini spoke English, and Griffin did not indicate the presence of a translator for this little exchange.... so, once again for complete transparency, take this for what it's worth......)

After an exchange of pleasantries, Mignini asked Griffin if he'd sounded believable in the interview the day before. For me, I'll never forget the look on Griffin's face as he related this to the CNN anchor. Maybe it was me reading an interpretation into Griffin's face... but it said, "nutjob, you're already worried you sounded like you were lying".

That interview was a colossal disaster for Mignini and he knew it.
__________________
In a thread titled "Who Killed Meredith Kercher?", the answer is obvious. Rudy Guede and no one else.

Last edited by Bill Williams; Yesterday at 10:29 AM.
Bill Williams is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 03:12 PM   #848
Bill Williams
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 13,471
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
His story about why the interrogations weren't recorded is also blatantly a lie. Recording the interrogations would have cost whatever the tapes cost....a few euros. The rooms were already set up to record. They had the money for recording the other witnesses and Amanda and Raffaele in the waiting room but not the two most critical interrogations of all? Only fools believe that. They either didn't want to record them or they did and got rid of them because they supported A's and R's accounts. There is no other credible explanation.
Mignini also implied to Griffin that it had not been a big deal that there'd been no video/audio, because there'd been plenty of witnesses - all police, and translator Anna Doninno.

Speaking of Doninno, her account of that night is bizarre; she'd said when she arrived at 12:30 am, the interrogation was in such disarray that she acted as a mediator between Knox and the police.

One guilter posted to this forum here on ISF that she'd acted as a diplomat!

Does anyone doubt that what both Knox and the police needed was a translator, not a mediator or a diplomat? Someone in that room needed to tell the cops what "See you later" really means as an English idiom!
__________________
In a thread titled "Who Killed Meredith Kercher?", the answer is obvious. Rudy Guede and no one else.
Bill Williams is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 04:04 PM   #849
Stacyhs
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 3,735
Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
Mignini also implied to Griffin that it had not been a big deal that there'd been no video/audio, because there'd been plenty of witnesses - all police, and translator Anna Doninno.

Speaking of Doninno, her account of that night is bizarre; she'd said when she arrived at 12:30 am, the interrogation was in such disarray that she acted as a mediator between Knox and the police.

One guilter posted to this forum here on ISF that she'd acted as a diplomat!

Does anyone doubt that what both Knox and the police needed was a translator, not a mediator or a diplomat? Someone in that room needed to tell the cops what "See you later" really means as an English idiom!
Doninno saw that message. I can find no mention in her testimony that she ever did or did not properly translate it to the police. The question is: if she did not, why didn't she? If she did, then the police and Mignini intentionally misrepresented it.

Last edited by Stacyhs; Yesterday at 04:08 PM.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 07:30 PM   #850
Bill Williams
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 13,471
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Doninno saw that message. I can find no mention in her testimony that she ever did or did not properly translate it to the police. The question is: if she did not, why didn't she? If she did, then the police and Mignini intentionally misrepresented it.
That's a fault of the defense. They should have hammered her for it.
__________________
In a thread titled "Who Killed Meredith Kercher?", the answer is obvious. Rudy Guede and no one else.
Bill Williams is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 08:21 PM   #851
Stacyhs
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 3,735
Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
That's a fault of the defense. They should have hammered her for it.
There were several things the defense should have hammered witnesses about.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 08:49 PM   #852
Numbers
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,350
Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
Mignini also implied to Griffin that it had not been a big deal that there'd been no video/audio, because there'd been plenty of witnesses - all police, and translator Anna Doninno.

Speaking of Doninno, her account of that night is bizarre; she'd said when she arrived at 12:30 am, the interrogation was in such disarray that she acted as a mediator between Knox and the police.

One guilter posted to this forum here on ISF that she'd acted as a diplomat!

Does anyone doubt that what both Knox and the police needed was a translator, not a mediator or a diplomat? Someone in that room needed to tell the cops what "See you later" really means as an English idiom!
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Doninno saw that message. I can find no mention in her testimony that she ever did or did not properly translate it to the police. The question is: if she did not, why didn't she? If she did, then the police and Mignini intentionally misrepresented it.
I didn't find any discussion or testimony on this issue in my search of the English transcript of Donnino's testimony from the Massei court trial. One striking part of that testimony is how much Donnino conveniently doesn't recall with any precision or can't account for, for example, why questions and answers were not recorded in writing, as they should for a legitimate witness interview, or what was the time sequence of events with regard to the reading of the telephone text message and Donnino's telling Knox about Donnino's temporary traumatic amnesia when she fractured her leg.

However, there is an important part of the Boninsegna court motivation report that deals with Donnino's testimony. In testimony given as a witness in Boninsegna's court, Donnino admits that the text message is simply equivalent to "a presto", an Italian version of "see you later". Here is an excerpt from the English translation of the Boninsegna MR discussing Donnino's testimony.

"Anna Donnino, a colleague of Colantone who does the same job, referred to the activity she carried out during the 06-Nov statement, at 1:45, declaring that her interpreting activity started at around 00:30, that is before the time indicated on the statement, whose closing time, like all the others, is unknown. This is considered another reason for considering the relative documentation as untrustworthy, also regarding the time the activity started.

The witness confirmed telling Knox about the episode in her private life, when she had broken her leg during an accident, showing the young woman, who continued to insist that she could not recall the circumstances she was being questioned about, that she understood how she felt, not being able to remember, which had also happened to her on that occasion. This circumstance is also not shown in the statement, which the witness said she had recounted in a spontaneous sense of solidarity with Knox.

Regarding the investigative activity, the witness stated that Knox was asked the questions several times, as she claimed, talking of indefinite repetition of the questions that she was asked, for example in relation to reconstructing her movements that evening.

The witness stated that Knox had, firstly, stated that she had not replied to the message received from Patrick Lumumba, although it is shown in the statement that Knox had stated, on the contrary, to have replied to Patrick that they would have seen each other later. In fact the witness confirmed that the phrase on record, see you later, should be understood as an invitation to a totally generic future meeting, equivalent to a presto [see you soon] or something similar, rather than to an imminent and certain invitation.

The witness confirmed reporting that Knox's statements were considered as lies, but also stated not recalling if the affirmation of not having replied to Lumumba's message had been taken of her own initiative or because of a decision of the interrogators. Also this circumstance, insofar as it showed perplexity concerning the traceability of the qualification in question, nevertheless signals a non-indifferent condition of the interpreter, which inevitably suffers from analogous contamination of her role by an emotional involvement given that her colleagues were the police officers who were carrying out the investigation."
Numbers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 08:54 PM   #853
Numbers
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,350
Originally Posted by TruthCalls View Post
From what I've seen, the majority of guilters that are still around and making such ridiculous claims are the ones who are relying on TJMK and the fake wiki for their information. I've seen arguments that are almost verbatim. I think they are duped into believing these sites are credible, reliable sites and therefore they truly believe they are arguing with truth on their side. So not lying, just incredibly ill-informed.
The original lies are from the police and prosecutors, and some Italian judges who convicted Knox of calunnia and provisionally convicted Knox and Sollecito of murder/rape.

While some of the guilters are simply uncritically repeating the lies of others, some of the leading guilters make up new lies.
Numbers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 09:09 PM   #854
Stacyhs
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 3,735
Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
I didn't find any discussion or testimony on this issue in my search of the English transcript of Donnino's testimony from the Massei court trial. One striking part of that testimony is how much Donnino conveniently doesn't recall with any precision or can't account for, for example, why questions and answers were not recorded in writing, as they should for a legitimate witness interview, or what was the time sequence of events with regard to the reading of the telephone text message and Donnino's telling Knox about Donnino's temporary traumatic amnesia when she fractured her leg.

However, there is an important part of the Boninsegna court motivation report that deals with Donnino's testimony. In testimony given as a witness in Boninsegna's court, Donnino admits that the text message is simply equivalent to "a presto", an Italian version of "see you later". Here is an excerpt from the English translation of the Boninsegna MR discussing Donnino's testimony.

"Anna Donnino, a colleague of Colantone who does the same job, referred to the activity she carried out during the 06-Nov statement, at 1:45, declaring that her interpreting activity started at around 00:30, that is before the time indicated on the statement, whose closing time, like all the others, is unknown. This is considered another reason for considering the relative documentation as untrustworthy, also regarding the time the activity started.

The witness confirmed telling Knox about the episode in her private life, when she had broken her leg during an accident, showing the young woman, who continued to insist that she could not recall the circumstances she was being questioned about, that she understood how she felt, not being able to remember, which had also happened to her on that occasion. This circumstance is also not shown in the statement, which the witness said she had recounted in a spontaneous sense of solidarity with Knox.

Regarding the investigative activity, the witness stated that Knox was asked the questions several times, as she claimed, talking of indefinite repetition of the questions that she was asked, for example in relation to reconstructing her movements that evening.

The witness stated that Knox had, firstly, stated that she had not replied to the message received from Patrick Lumumba, although it is shown in the statement that Knox had stated, on the contrary, to have replied to Patrick that they would have seen each other later. In fact the witness confirmed that the phrase on record, see you later, should be understood as an invitation to a totally generic future meeting, equivalent to a presto [see you soon] or something similar, rather than to an imminent and certain invitation.

The witness confirmed reporting that Knox's statements were considered as lies, but also stated not recalling if the affirmation of not having replied to Lumumba's message had been taken of her own initiative or because of a decision of the interrogators. Also this circumstance, insofar as it showed perplexity concerning the traceability of the qualification in question, nevertheless signals a non-indifferent condition of the interpreter, which inevitably suffers from analogous contamination of her role by an emotional involvement given that her colleagues were the police officers who were carrying out the investigation."
In her Massei testimony, Doninno said that Knox saying she had not replied to Lumumba was a "blatant lie". So much for her impartiality.

Did Amanda actually say she had not replied or that she didn't remember or that she didn't think she had? Who knows as we only have the police say-so for this.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 10:37 PM   #855
Bill Williams
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 13,471
Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
The witness confirmed telling Knox about the episode in her private life, when she had broken her leg during an accident, showing the young woman, who continued to insist that she could not recall the circumstances she was being questioned about, that she understood how she felt, not being able to remember, which had also happened to her on that occasion. This circumstance is also not shown in the statement, which the witness said she had recounted in a spontaneous sense of solidarity with Knox.
If nothing else, this "spontaneous sense of solidarity" heavily suggests that Doninno felt there was no evil intent on Knox's part for not "remembering" the narrative as put to her by the police.

So much for purposely naming Lumumba, if indeed it wasn't the cops who had brought Lumumba's name into the room as part of a narrative which they thought closed the case.
__________________
In a thread titled "Who Killed Meredith Kercher?", the answer is obvious. Rudy Guede and no one else.
Bill Williams is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 11:49 PM   #856
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Moomin Valley
Posts: 13,576
Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
Mignini also implied to Griffin that it had not been a big deal that there'd been no video/audio, because there'd been plenty of witnesses - all police, and translator Anna Doninno.

Speaking of Doninno, her account of that night is bizarre; she'd said when she arrived at 12:30 am, the interrogation was in such disarray that she acted as a mediator between Knox and the police.

One guilter posted to this forum here on ISF that she'd acted as a diplomat!

Does anyone doubt that what both Knox and the police needed was a translator, not a mediator or a diplomat? Someone in that room needed to tell the cops what "See you later" really means as an English idiom!
Er, it's also an 'idiom' <cough> in most languages. What do you think au revoir, hasta la vista, auf wiedersehn and <ahem> the Italian, arrivederci mean?
__________________
If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 11:52 PM   #857
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Moomin Valley
Posts: 13,576
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Doninno saw that message. I can find no mention in her testimony that she ever did or did not properly translate it to the police. The question is: if she did not, why didn't she? If she did, then the police and Mignini intentionally misrepresented it.
There was just been a brutal murder. Knox was found at the scene. Of course the police will ask, 'What did you mean, "see you later?"' especially as Knox had deleted the message.
__________________
If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 11:54 PM   #858
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Moomin Valley
Posts: 13,576
Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
I didn't find any discussion or testimony on this issue in my search of the English transcript of Donnino's testimony from the Massei court trial. One striking part of that testimony is how much Donnino conveniently doesn't recall with any precision or can't account for, for example, why questions and answers were not recorded in writing, as they should for a legitimate witness interview, or what was the time sequence of events with regard to the reading of the telephone text message and Donnino's telling Knox about Donnino's temporary traumatic amnesia when she fractured her leg.

However, there is an important part of the Boninsegna court motivation report that deals with Donnino's testimony. In testimony given as a witness in Boninsegna's court, Donnino admits that the text message is simply equivalent to "a presto", an Italian version of "see you later". Here is an excerpt from the English translation of the Boninsegna MR discussing Donnino's testimony.

"Anna Donnino, a colleague of Colantone who does the same job, referred to the activity she carried out during the 06-Nov statement, at 1:45, declaring that her interpreting activity started at around 00:30, that is before the time indicated on the statement, whose closing time, like all the others, is unknown. This is considered another reason for considering the relative documentation as untrustworthy, also regarding the time the activity started.

The witness confirmed telling Knox about the episode in her private life, when she had broken her leg during an accident, showing the young woman, who continued to insist that she could not recall the circumstances she was being questioned about, that she understood how she felt, not being able to remember, which had also happened to her on that occasion. This circumstance is also not shown in the statement, which the witness said she had recounted in a spontaneous sense of solidarity with Knox.

Regarding the investigative activity, the witness stated that Knox was asked the questions several times, as she claimed, talking of indefinite repetition of the questions that she was asked, for example in relation to reconstructing her movements that evening.

The witness stated that Knox had, firstly, stated that she had not replied to the message received from Patrick Lumumba, although it is shown in the statement that Knox had stated, on the contrary, to have replied to Patrick that they would have seen each other later. In fact the witness confirmed that the phrase on record, see you later, should be understood as an invitation to a totally generic future meeting, equivalent to a presto [see you soon] or something similar, rather than to an imminent and certain invitation.

The witness confirmed reporting that Knox's statements were considered as lies, but also stated not recalling if the affirmation of not having replied to Lumumba's message had been taken of her own initiative or because of a decision of the interrogators. Also this circumstance, insofar as it showed perplexity concerning the traceability of the qualification in question, nevertheless signals a non-indifferent condition of the interpreter, which inevitably suffers from analogous contamination of her role by an emotional involvement given that her colleagues were the police officers who were carrying out the investigation."
Hah, but Donino tricked Knox into confessing. LOL.
__________________
If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 11:57 PM   #859
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Moomin Valley
Posts: 13,576
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
In her Massei testimony, Doninno said that Knox saying she had not replied to Lumumba was a "blatant lie". So much for her impartiality.

Did Amanda actually say she had not replied or that she didn't remember or that she didn't think she had? Who knows as we only have the police say-so for this.
It was a blatant lie. She knew she had deleted a reply to Patrick, so was really shocked when police reproduced it.

Remember, when the police interview a witness, they have nothing to go on except what they are told. They then go about verifying what they have been told. Something that turns out to be deception or a lie, will make them focus carefully on why that witness has attempted to mislead them.
__________________
If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 11:59 PM   #860
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Moomin Valley
Posts: 13,576
Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
If nothing else, this "spontaneous sense of solidarity" heavily suggests that Doninno felt there was no evil intent on Knox's part for not "remembering" the narrative as put to her by the police.

So much for purposely naming Lumumba, if indeed it wasn't the cops who had brought Lumumba's name into the room as part of a narrative which they thought closed the case.
No. Knox confirmed to Mignini and in court that Patrick's name was introduced by her, not the police.
__________________
If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 02:17 AM   #861
Methos
Muse
 
Methos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 688
Well, it should be clear from these pictures

(taken from this file)


that the message didn't need translating because it was already in Italian, that it was this message that brought up the name of "Patrik"and that it hasn't been deleted (It was Lumumba's text to Knox that was deleted).
__________________
"Found a typo? You can keep it..."
Methos is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 06:36 AM   #862
Bill Williams
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 13,471
Originally Posted by Methos View Post
Well, it should be clear from these pictures


that the message didn't need translating because it was already in Italian, that it was this message that brought up the name of "Patrik"and that it hasn't been deleted (It was Lumumba's text to Knox that was deleted).
My bad. Thanks for clearing that up. Donnino should still have advised what the idiom meant to the American who used it.
__________________
In a thread titled "Who Killed Meredith Kercher?", the answer is obvious. Rudy Guede and no one else.
Bill Williams is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 06:39 AM   #863
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 13,467
Originally Posted by Methos View Post
Well, it should be clear from these pictures


that the message didn't need translating because it was already in Italian, that it was this message that brought up the name of "Patrik"and that it hasn't been deleted (It was Lumumba's text to Knox that was deleted).


So apart from getting absolutely everything wrong..... Vixen made yet another fantastic argument on this issue!!
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 06:45 AM   #864
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 13,467
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It was a blatant lie. She knew she had deleted a reply to Patrick, so was really shocked when police reproduced it.

Remember, when the police interview a witness, they have nothing to go on except what they are told. They then go about verifying what they have been told. Something that turns out to be deception or a lie, will make them focus carefully on why that witness has attempted to mislead them.


Knox deleted Lumumba's incoming text message. She did not delete her reply*.

You really ought to do some more research on the actual facts of this case before trying to frame arguments, Vixen.......


* And indeed in those days of 2G GSM text messaging, this was very much standard practice. As one received an incoming text message, one often read it then immediately deleted it (unless there was a good reason to keep it). Conversely, when one sent a text message, it disappeared from the screen once it was sent and many people (including Knox) didn't even know that the sent messages remained stored in the phone's memory. In order to delete a just-sent text message, one would have to undergo a rather convoluted process of going into the phone's menu, navigating through to "sent texts", then finding the sent text in question, bringing it up on screen, and deleting it.

I would wager a good sum of money that if you looked at most people's handsets in 2007, they contained very few received text messages (since most would have been deleted by the user once read) but a large batch of sent text messages (in many cases, every text message ever sent from that handset). Just like Knox's handset.
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 06:50 AM   #865
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 13,467
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Er, it's also an 'idiom' <cough> in most languages. What do you think au revoir, hasta la vista, auf wiedersehn and <ahem> the Italian, arrivederci mean?


What does the Italian "Ci vediamo più tardi" mean, Vixen?

Is that phrase an idiom in Italian, Vixen?

Do you know what you're talking about, Vixen?
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 06:53 AM   #866
Numbers
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,350
Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
My bad. Thanks for clearing that up. Donnino should still have advised what the idiom meant to the American who used it.
The police and prosecutor choose to claim that the Italian words, translating to: "See you later. Have a good evening!" meant that Knox and Lumumba were planning to meet later in the evening.

In the arrest warrant prepared on Nov. 6 by Mignini, he changed the wording of the Italian, including significantly by leaving out the closing "Buona serata!", which means: "Have a good evening!".

The ECHR examines the actions of the authorities surrounding an arrest when claims of a violation are brought before it. Actions by the authorities which are the ECHR considers deceptive may result in a finding by the ECHR that the arrest was itself done in bad faith, and thus a violation of defense rights under the Convention.

We will see, when the ECHR judges Knox v. Italy, whether the ECHR judges this misrepresentation by Mignini, or the totality of the interrogation and arrest, constitutes violations of the Convention, and whether "bad faith" (deception) is an element of the violations.

It should also be noted that the ECHR considers it the obligation of the authorities to record in writing or electronically the details of interrogations which lead to arrests or convictions. The total lack of detailed recording of the questions and answers in the interrogation, which lack was a violation of Italian procedural law, will be likely be an issue for the ECHR when it forms its judgment of the case.

Last edited by Numbers; Today at 06:59 AM.
Numbers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 08:00 AM   #867
Numbers
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,350
The ECHR has updated its Country Profiles for all CoE member states as of July 1, 2018. On page 13 of the Country Profile for Italy, the following is listed under "noteworthy pending cases" for a Chamber tribunal:

"Amanda Marie Knox v. Italy (no. 76577/13)
Case communicated to the parties in April 2016
This case concerns criminal proceedings in which Ms Knox was found guilty of making a false accusation. The offending statements were taken while she was being questioned in the context of criminal proceedings for the murder and sexual assault of her flatmate. The applicant was accused of implicating another person whom she knew to be innocent.
Ms Knox alleges that the criminal proceedings in which she was convicted were unfair, relying on Article 6 §§ 1 and 3 (a) (right to a fair trial – right to be informed promptly of the charge), (c) (right to legal assistance), (e) (right to assistance from an interpreter), Article 3 (prohibition of inhuman and degrading treatment) and Article 8 (right to respect for private and family life) of the Convention."

Thus, the Knox v. Italy case, along with other noteworthy cases, remains pending.
Numbers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 10:35 AM   #868
TruthCalls
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,043
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
No. Knox confirmed to Mignini and in court that Patrick's name was introduced by her, not the police.
Yeah, we get it. So the police are holding her phone, with the text message she sent to Patrick, and with Patrick's name on the top of the screen.... but Amanda spoke his name first, so that means....??? Here's a hint: It changes nothing. They read the messages. They chose to misinterpret what was said. It matters no a whit who spoke the name shown on the message first.
TruthCalls is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 10:40 AM   #869
Stacyhs
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 3,735
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Er, it's also an 'idiom' <cough> in most languages. What do you think au revoir, hasta la vista, auf wiedersehn and <ahem> the Italian, arrivederci mean?
That was not the point which seems to, once again, go flying right over your head. Doninno did not, in her Massei testimony, say that she had ever told the police what Amanda meant when she literally translated "see you later" into Italian in her text. In the arrest validation, Mignini changed what Amanda had actually written to "ci vediamo dopo" and then claimed

Quote:
cio che conferma che nelle ore successive la knox si e trovata insieme al Diya ell'appartament dove si trovava la vittima
(Italian version arrest validation)

Quote:
which confirms that in the following hours that Knox was found together with Diya in the apartment where the victim was.
(google translate)


Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
There was just been a brutal murder. Knox was found at the scene. Of course the police will ask, 'What did you mean, "see you later?"' especially as Knox had deleted the message.
No, Amanda was not "found at the scene". Nice try. Amanda and Raffaele called the police to the scene, unaware that the postales were already coming. Your wording reminds me of the guilters (and the media) saying Raffaele was "caught at the border" after the Hellmann verdict was annulled. He wasn't "caught"; he was very openly staying at a hotel after coming back from Austria with his girlfriend.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Hah, but Donino tricked Knox into confessing. LOL.
LOL. Again, nice try. Amanda was certainly influenced to "remember" certain things by Doninno's own admission. You do remember the whole "traumatic amnesia" bit, don't you?

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It was a blatant lie. She knew she had deleted a reply to Patrick, so was really shocked when police reproduced it.

Remember, when the police interview a witness, they have nothing to go on except what they are told. They then go about verifying what they have been told. Something that turns out to be deception or a lie, will make them focus carefully on why that witness has attempted to mislead them.
Once again, you miss the entire point. Swoosh! It was not up to Doninno to decide what was a lie and what was a failure to remember. By stating that it was a "blatant lie" she was exposing her own prejudice when she was supposed to be a neutral translator.
As already pointed out, Knox did not delete her reply to Lumumba; she deleted his incoming text to her. Sheesh. Try and get the basic facts right at least. Do you delete incoming texts after reading them? My goodness, Vixen! Just what are you trying to hide?

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
No. Knox confirmed to Mignini and in court that Patrick's name was introduced by her, not the police.
Nice try, again. She didn't bring up the text to the police and thus Lumumba; the police did by showing her the text message when they took her phone. What do you think would be the first question the police would ask upon reading that message? Think real hard. So technically, Amanda probably did say the name "Lumumba" first...when she answered that most obvious question "Who is this 'Patrick'?"

Last edited by Stacyhs; Today at 10:45 AM.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 10:44 AM   #870
TruthCalls
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,043
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It was a blatant lie. She knew she had deleted a reply to Patrick, so was really shocked when police reproduced it.

Remember, when the police interview a witness, they have nothing to go on except what they are told. They then go about verifying what they have been told. Something that turns out to be deception or a lie, will make them focus carefully on why that witness has attempted to mislead them.
Ah, some random craziness from Vixen... the entertainment is back.

You've already been reminded it was the received message she deleted, which was the norm back then, so I'll skip that.

But I'm curious - do you ever actually think about what it is you're trying to imply? WHY would she lie about replying the the SMS? For what purpose would she do that? People tell "blatant lies" when they want to hide something. She was already telling the police about being told not to come in... the message only confirmed this. People to NOT LIE about things like that.

I swear, all you PGP do is look for the slightest of inconsistencies, any slight error in recollection, and you think you've landed a huge piece of evidence, regardless of the fact that it is not in any way connected to the case. Amanda forgot she sent a response back to Patrick that confirmed the story she was telling the police - oh, how ALL THOSE LIES just keep piling up!
TruthCalls is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 11:05 AM   #871
Stacyhs
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 3,735
Originally Posted by TruthCalls View Post
Ah, some random craziness from Vixen... the entertainment is back.

You've already been reminded it was the received message she deleted, which was the norm back then, so I'll skip that.

But I'm curious - do you ever actually think about what it is you're trying to imply? WHY would she lie about replying the the SMS? For what purpose would she do that? People tell "blatant lies" when they want to hide something. She was already telling the police about being told not to come in... the message only confirmed this. People to NOT LIE about things like that.

I swear, all you PGP do is look for the slightest of inconsistencies, any slight error in recollection, and you think you've landed a huge piece of evidence, regardless of the fact that it is not in any way connected to the case. Amanda forgot she sent a response back to Patrick that confirmed the story she was telling the police - oh, how ALL THOSE LIES just keep piling up!
Yet they excuse away the HUGE holes in Curatolo's testimony and Quintavalle's failure to tell Volturno that he had seen Knox at his store when directly asked within days of the murder. They excuse away the fact that Capezalli claimed she could hear the leaves rustling through her double paned windows, that she knew about the murder before it had been discovered and that she'd seen posters with Guede's and Lumumba's names on them when no such posters existed. She also remembered seeing Meredith with a "fat lip". Odd how no one else ever mentioned this. But, yep...these are all credible witnesses. Sheesh.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 11:25 AM   #872
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Moomin Valley
Posts: 13,576
Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
What does the Italian "Ci vediamo più tardi" mean, Vixen?

Is that phrase an idiom in Italian, Vixen?

Do you know what you're talking about, Vixen?
In effect, it is a more specific and explicit sign off, so why shouldn't the police be nosy about it?

The police are a suspicious bunch.
__________________
If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 11:49 AM   #873
Stacyhs
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 3,735
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
In effect, it is a more specific and explicit sign off, so why shouldn't the police be nosy about it?

The police are a suspicious bunch.
No one here has said that the police should not have asked Knox about it. That would have been the very logical thing to do. But to claim it was Knox who brought it up first is, shall we say, a "blatant lie".

To claim her text was evidence that she planned to meet Lumumba later that night and that it "confirms that in the following hours that Knox was found together with Diya in the apartment where the victim was" is either intentional misrepresentation at the worst or very poor investigative work at the least.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 12:20 PM   #874
Bill Williams
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 13,471
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
No one here has said that the police should not have asked Knox about it. That would have been the very logical thing to do. But to claim it was Knox who brought it up first is, shall we say, a "blatant lie".

To claim her text was evidence that she planned to meet Lumumba later that night and that it "confirms that in the following hours that Knox was found together with Diya in the apartment where the victim was" is either intentional misrepresentation at the worst or very poor investigative work at the least.
It's been 3 years 3 months and 18 days since the Supreme Court of Italy acquitted the pair. As for the police investigation, the Court cited that it was rife with amnesiac errors which left it where the courts were unable to evaluate either guilt or innocence.

The remaining fact, acc. to that same Court, that there was no credible evidence of the pair in the murder room, meant that an acquittal was the only option available.

Three years 3 months and 18 days since the acquittal which cited all that, it is clear that the police ran an inept interrogation. Mignini was the most inept of all - first calling Knox a liar, then immediately running out to arrest Lumumba solely on this liar's say so. "We had to arrest him. She accused him."

The whole handling of Lumumba's name in that interrogation is proof of the police's ineptness which the Italian courts eventually recognized.
__________________
In a thread titled "Who Killed Meredith Kercher?", the answer is obvious. Rudy Guede and no one else.
Bill Williams is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Trials and Errors

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:07 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.