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Old 13th June 2018, 10:27 AM   #2841
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@ Roger.


Congratulations on a great piece of succinct analysis. Your posts nailed it.

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Old 13th June 2018, 12:23 PM   #2842
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Do you seriously believe in that woo?
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Old 13th June 2018, 04:48 PM   #2843
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"A concentrated campaign of price manipulation may have accounted for at least half of the increase in the price of Bitcoin and other big cryptocurrencies last year, according to a paper released on Wednesday by an academic with a history of spotting fraud in financial markets."

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/06/1...ipulation.html
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Old 13th June 2018, 08:56 PM   #2844
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
I am willing to entertain the idea that 'Satoshi Nakamoto' was simply an idealistic hacker with a limited understanding of economics, who though he was doing the World a favor by kick-starting a 'digital currency' which (he thought) was desperately needed to avert global catastrophe. But if so then he was either hopelessly naive or blinded by conspiracy theories himself.

And perhaps the reason he hasn't 'de-cloaked' is that he doesn't want to admit his naivety and take responsibility for the monster he created. Or perhaps he saw how much money could be made from it...

But while he/it remains anonymous there will always be a question mark around his/its motives. A Ponzi scheme may not start out as deliberate fraud, but it becomes one when its creator realizes that the investment has no legs - and yet continues to promote it.
Inflation of price is not a Ponzi scheme. Ponzi schemes are purposely masking new investor money as return on investment from a different source. A ponzi scheme is even different from a pyramid where the source of returns is not hidden.
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Old 13th June 2018, 11:43 PM   #2845
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Inflation of price is not a Ponzi scheme. Ponzi schemes are purposely masking new investor money as return on investment from a different source.
Where is the real source of 'investment return' for bitcoin, and is anyone 'masking' it?

Bitcoin has failed as a currency, so at this point the price is being propped up solely by the amount of money 'invested' in it. But we still have bitcoin promoters insisting that it is a revolutionary new technology that will replace 'failing' fiat currencies, and that this is the reason the price will 'go to the moon'. That is masking the true source of bitcoin's 'return'.

In fact bitcoin was designed from the start to be highly deflationary, so the more people buy it the higher the price should go - even if it is not used as 'money'. Bitcoin's creator obviously knew this, and must have seen that he could make a fortune by mining a pile of bitcoins and then encouraging their use. But even if he resisted the temptation, this feature has not escaped the notice of others.

So now we have big investors such as the Winklevoss twins insisting that bitcoin has a bright future. Of course they do - they stand to make a fortune if the price continues to climb. But what are they not telling us? That the only thing keeping the price up is more 'investment' pouring in, and that is bitcoin's only source of 'income'. This is why bitcoin is being compared to classic Ponzi schemes, which work the same way.
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Old 14th June 2018, 01:25 AM   #2846
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GOTO 2836
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Old 14th June 2018, 01:58 AM   #2847
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Inflation of price is not a Ponzi scheme. Ponzi schemes are purposely masking new investor money as return on investment from a different source. A ponzi scheme is even different from a pyramid where the source of returns is not hidden.
That is totally irrelevant. As long as Ponzi schemes are bad, bitcoin will always be called a Ponzi scheme.
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Old 14th June 2018, 04:36 AM   #2848
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Warren Buffet and associate.

"Rat Poison"
People who buy have "dementia"

"Trading in turds"

http://money.cnn.com/2018/06/13/inve...pto/index.html

Plain speak. Sorry Roger, they one-upped you.
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Old 14th June 2018, 05:20 AM   #2849
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Where is the real source of 'investment return' for bitcoin, and is anyone 'masking' it?

Bitcoin has failed as a currency, so at this point the price is being propped up solely by the amount of money 'invested' in it. But we still have bitcoin promoters insisting that it is a revolutionary new technology that will replace 'failing' fiat currencies, and that this is the reason the price will 'go to the moon'. That is masking the true source of bitcoin's 'return'.

In fact bitcoin was designed from the start to be highly deflationary, so the more people buy it the higher the price should go - even if it is not used as 'money'. Bitcoin's creator obviously knew this, and must have seen that he could make a fortune by mining a pile of bitcoins and then encouraging their use. But even if he resisted the temptation, this feature has not escaped the notice of others.

So now we have big investors such as the Winklevoss twins insisting that bitcoin has a bright future. Of course they do - they stand to make a fortune if the price continues to climb. But what are they not telling us? That the only thing keeping the price up is more 'investment' pouring in, and that is bitcoin's only source of 'income'. This is why bitcoin is being compared to classic Ponzi schemes, which work the same way.
Source of investment is belief in the willingness of a person to purchase a Bitcoin in the future at a higher price then you paid for it. The source of that return is the money from that purchaser. Simply thinking that is a bad idea does not make it a Ponzi scheme. Pump and dumps and pyramids are also not Ponzi scheme.

ETA: paying for something that also has no value is also not a Ponzi scheme. Delusion is not a Ponzi scheme.

Last edited by BobTheCoward; 14th June 2018 at 05:27 AM.
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Old 14th June 2018, 10:37 AM   #2850
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Source of investment is belief in the willingness of a person to purchase a Bitcoin in the future at a higher price then you paid for it. The source of that return is the money from that purchaser. Simply thinking that is a bad idea does not make it a Ponzi scheme. Pump and dumps and pyramids are also not Ponzi scheme.

ETA: paying for something that also has no value is also not a Ponzi scheme. Delusion is not a Ponzi scheme.
Give it up Bob, you are dealing with people who are not interested in facts.

They have redefined "legitimate investment" to mean investing in an asset that produces an income (bonds, shares in a company, etc). Any asset that does not generate an income but merely appreciates in value is therefore a scam or Ponzi scheme or any other nefarious type of scheme.

It is not about the nature of the nefarious schemes, it's all about bitcoin.
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Old 14th June 2018, 11:14 AM   #2851
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Yes Bitcoin probably will go to that and maybe below it
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Old 14th June 2018, 11:42 AM   #2852
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Yes Bitcoin probably will go to that and maybe below it
Anything's possible.
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Old 14th June 2018, 11:47 AM   #2853
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Give it up Bob, you are dealing with people who are not interested in facts.

They have redefined "legitimate investment" to mean investing in an asset that produces an income (bonds, shares in a company, etc). Any asset that does not generate an income but merely appreciates in value is therefore a scam or Ponzi scheme or any other nefarious type of scheme.

It is not about the nature of the nefarious schemes, it's all about bitcoin.
Nothing "merely appreciates in value" without producing any revenue. It either appreciates only for a short time, then slumps, as Bitcoin is doing, or it is a scam. A bubble or a swindle.
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Old 14th June 2018, 11:56 AM   #2854
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Nothing "merely appreciates in value" without producing any revenue. It either appreciates only for a short time, then slumps, as Bitcoin is doing, or it is a scam. A bubble or a swindle.
Case in point.
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Old 14th June 2018, 12:03 PM   #2855
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And today I met a woman who is part-time into cryptocurrency. She buys and sells Platincoin.

It has a new twist. It is also a pyramid marketing scheme where "commissions" flow upwards from the base of the pyramid. Get 10 people below you who each have 10 people below them and so on down to 11 levels.

And this in a country where people don't have money to spend! South Africa.
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Old 14th June 2018, 12:10 PM   #2856
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Case in point.
That's not a sentence. No verb. So what case? What point?
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Old 14th June 2018, 12:24 PM   #2857
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Nothing "merely appreciates in value" without producing any revenue. It either appreciates only for a short time, then slumps, as Bitcoin is doing, or it is a scam. A bubble or a swindle.
Art?
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Old 14th June 2018, 12:25 PM   #2858
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
That's not a sentence. No verb. So what case? What point?
Regardless of you now playing dumb, you illustrated my post perfectly. You just described the entire commodities market as "a scam. A bubble or a swindle".
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Old 14th June 2018, 01:09 PM   #2859
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Regardless of you now playing dumb, you illustrated my post perfectly. You just described the entire commodities market as "a scam. A bubble or a swindle".
No I haven't. I have described in those words only the commodities that
- Have no use value
- produce no income; but nonetheless magically
- appreciate in value.

Pork bellies and copper futures have, or guarantee, use value; airline company shares provide dividend revenue, derived from passenger fares, and so on.

These are not necessarily bubbles or swindles; though of course like anything else they can be used as cover for swindles.

Last edited by Craig B; 14th June 2018 at 01:10 PM.
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Old 14th June 2018, 01:14 PM   #2860
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
No I haven't. I have described in those words only the commodities that
- Have no use value
- produce no income; but nonetheless magically
- appreciate in value.

Pork bellies and copper futures have, or guarantee, use value; airline company shares provide dividend revenue, derived from passenger fares, and so on.

These are not necessarily bubbles or swindles; though of course like anything else they can be used as cover for swindles.
What about comic books? I don't think action comics #1 has done anything but appreciate in value for decades.
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Old 14th June 2018, 01:33 PM   #2861
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
What about comic books? I don't think action comics #1 has done anything but appreciate in value for decades.
That's a collectors' item, like a Penny Black postage stamp. Are you saying that Bitcoins are bought by collectors in that sense? Enthusiasts. Like buyers of Chinese vases?

I don't think such rules apply, though collectors can set off a speculative bubble as did tulip fanciers in the Netherlands in 1637. But tulip values didn't "merely appreciate" did they? They rose vertiginously and then crashed. Like something else I could name, which went to over $19,000 last December, and is today around $6,600. Don't bet the farm on collectors pushing the price back up again to these bubble levels.
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Old 14th June 2018, 01:38 PM   #2862
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
That's a collectors' item, like a Penny Black postage stamp. Are you saying that Bitcoins are bought by collectors in that sense? Enthusiasts. Like buyers of Chinese vases?

I don't think such rules apply, though collectors can set off a speculative bubble as did tulip fanciers in the Netherlands in 1637. But tulip values didn't "merely appreciate" did they? They rose vertiginously and then crashed. Like something else I could name, which went to over $19,000 last December, and is today around $6,600. Don't bet the farm on collectors pushing the price back up again to these bubble levels.
We were not talking about bitcoin. We were talking about

- Have no use value
- produce no income; but nonetheless magically
- appreciate in value.

A collector's item has no use value, produces no income, and appreciates in value.
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Old 14th June 2018, 09:02 PM   #2863
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A comic book’s use is entertainment and pleasure
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Old 14th June 2018, 10:01 PM   #2864
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Originally Posted by gabeygoat View Post
A comic book’s use is entertainment and pleasure
I don't think they are cracking open detective comics 27.

If we count sense of pleasure, there is pleasure in thinking about something you own, even if you don't take it in with your senses.

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Old 14th June 2018, 10:53 PM   #2865
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't think they are cracking open detective comics 27.

If we count sense of pleasure, there is pleasure in thinking about something you own, even if you don't take it in with your senses.

True enough. Id still prefer the collectible, but then again, I ruined the value of many of my comic books as a kid, by reading them haha. My collector friend would always get frustrated with me.
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Old 15th June 2018, 12:23 AM   #2866
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
No I haven't. I have described in those words only the commodities that
- Have no use value
- produce no income; but nonetheless magically
- appreciate in value.
By definition, commodities produce no income. They include precious metals, currencies and collectibles. The only way to make money from them is to capitalize on price changes in them.

Note that some commodities might have an incidental use value but so does bitcoin (even if you wouldn't use it).
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Old 15th June 2018, 07:45 PM   #2867
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
By definition, commodities produce no income... The only way to make money from them is to capitalize on price changes in them.
Nonsense.

Commodity
Quote:
A commodity is a basic good used in commerce that is interchangeable with other commodities of the same type. Commodities are most often used as inputs in the production of other goods or services.
The primary way of making money out of a commodity is to incorporate it into a product or service. A 'commodity' which has no use value should be worthless, because why would anyone want to buy something they can't use?

Quote:
Note that some commodities might have an incidental use value
Any commodity whose use value is 'incidental' is on shaky ground.

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward
If we count sense of pleasure, there is pleasure in thinking about something you own, even if you don't take it in with your senses.
Yes, and there is pleasure in thinking about something you own being 'valuable', even if it is actually worthless.

If people want to waste their money on useless objects just so they can own them that's fine, but you can't run an economy on 'collectibles'. Real economies need real goods which are made into real products that are used to keep people healthy and happy. You could argue that just being able to own stuff makes people happy, but there is an opportunity cost. Imagine an economy where everyone is fawning over their 'valuable' collections, but can't pay their bills and are starving to death.
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Old 16th June 2018, 07:13 AM   #2868
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Nonsense.

Commodity


The primary way of making money out of a commodity is to incorporate it into a product or service. A 'commodity' which has no use value should be worthless, because why would anyone want to buy something they can't use?

Any commodity whose use value is 'incidental' is on shaky ground.

Yes, and there is pleasure in thinking about something you own being 'valuable', even if it is actually worthless.

If people want to waste their money on useless objects just so they can own them that's fine, but you can't run an economy on 'collectibles'. Real economies need real goods which are made into real products that are used to keep people healthy and happy. You could argue that just being able to own stuff makes people happy, but there is an opportunity cost. Imagine an economy where everyone is fawning over their 'valuable' collections, but can't pay their bills and are starving to death.
None of which supports your accusation it is Ponzi scheme.
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Old 16th June 2018, 07:19 AM   #2869
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
The primary way of making money out of a commodity is to incorporate it into a product or service.
No matter how much special pleading you do, the fact remains that the industrial value of commodities traded on the commodities market is dwarfed by speculation.
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Old 16th June 2018, 09:01 AM   #2870
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
We were not talking about bitcoin. We were talking about

- Have no use value
- produce no income; but nonetheless magically
- appreciate in value.

A collector's item has no use value, produces no income, and appreciates in value.
Not all items are suitable to become collectible, as I have suggested. Among there are assets that have no physical existence. It is not enthusiasts who are buying these things to stick in albums. Moreover Bitcoin is not appreciating. If you bought it at peak you've lost about two thirds of your investment, and are holding assets that produce no income. Good luck.
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Old 16th June 2018, 09:04 AM   #2871
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It's just a game ..
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Old 16th June 2018, 08:19 PM   #2872
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
It's just a game ..
If only that were true...
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Old 17th June 2018, 04:42 AM   #2873
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
If only that were true...
Ok .. unless you are the guy with 90.000BTC, it's just a game. If you are that guy, it's one hell of a game.
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