Does Islam belong in Germany?

Abdul Alhazred · 21st April 2012, 04:35 PM

Merkel ally says Islam not part of Germany (Reuters)

This guy said "Nein!"

...

This guy said "Ja, tatsächlich!"

angrysoba · 21st April 2012, 04:37 PM

Fastest Godwin ever?

I Ratant · 21st April 2012, 05:08 PM

One of my physicians told me he was born in Germany... 3 days from the date I was, in 1938... and was a Palestinian.
He has no regard for the Germany of that period.

Toontown · 21st April 2012, 05:48 PM

No system of false beliefs belongs anywhere, if you want to get technical about it. And the Germans are known as a technical people.

Abdul Alhazred · 21st April 2012, 06:12 PM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

Fastest Godwin ever?

Does that mean I win?

DC · 21st April 2012, 06:14 PM

Grundgesetz Art. 4 Absatz 1, 2

angrysoba · 21st April 2012, 06:30 PM

Originally Posted by Abdul Alhazred

Does that mean I win?

Yes, you win the title of OberGrosseReichsMufti. Tell all your friends!

A'isha · 21st April 2012, 06:38 PM

A conservative German politician thinks a Middle Eastern religion is not part of "German identity" and does not belong in Germany?

That's never led to anything bad before!

Toontown · 21st April 2012, 07:44 PM

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

A conservative German politician thinks a Middle Eastern religion is not part of "German identity" and does not belong in Germany?

That's never led to anything bad before!

Godwin.

People are slow learners. The Muslims knew they were Germans when they moved in on them. Didn't care. Moved right on in anyhow. Perhaps the Muslims thought there was some sort of unspoken understanding between them and the Germans due to the whole Muslim Jew-hate thing.

Well, surprise. There is no unspoken understanding. Except the one that says Germans are still Germans, after all those centuries and all those wars, win, lose, or draw.

epepke · 21st April 2012, 08:03 PM

Originally Posted by Toontown

Godwin.

People are slow learners. The Muslims knew they were Germans when they moved in on them. Didn't care. Moved right on in anyhow. Perhaps the Muslims thought there was some sort of unspoken understanding between them and the Germans due to the whole Muslim Jew-hate thing.

Well, surprise. There is no unspoken understanding. Except the one that says Germans are still Germans, after all those centuries and all those wars, win, lose, or draw.

There was the so-called Grand Mufti of Palestine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haj_Amin_al-Husseini

Still, it pains me to admit it, because over half my DNA is German, but it's true. As long as there is a Germany, anybody who doesn't drink beer and eat roasted pigs hocks had better always look in the rear-view mirror.

angrysoba · 21st April 2012, 08:20 PM

Originally Posted by Toontown

Godwin.

People are slow learners. The Muslims knew they were Germans when they moved in on them. Didn't care. Moved right on in anyhow.

When they moved in on them? Does this mean that Muslims are not supposed to be able to emigrate to Germany? To move in on someone suggests some kind of imposition or invasion. Is this how you see it?

Quote:

Perhaps the Muslims thought there was some sort of unspoken understanding between them and the Germans due to the whole Muslim Jew-hate thing.

Or perhaps this tells us more about your prejudices than those collectively held by Muslims and Germans.

Quote:

Well, surprise. There is no unspoken understanding. Except the one that says Germans are still Germans, after all those centuries and all those wars, win, lose, or draw.

And would you like to tell us a little of this essence of Germans qua Germans?

Ryokan · 21st April 2012, 08:40 PM

Most of the Muslims in Germany are Turkish foreign labourers, or their descendents, who were invited to come to Germany and work in the 70s.

Toontown · 21st April 2012, 08:46 PM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

When they moved in on them? Does this mean that Muslims are not supposed to be able to emigrate to Germany? To move in on someone suggests some kind of imposition or invasion. Is this how you see it?

Or perhaps this tells us more about your prejudices than those collectively held by Muslims and Germans.

And would you like to tell us a little of this essence of Germans qua Germans?

Can the interrogation, Herr Inquisitor. I said what I said, it means what it means. You don't need to peruse it, sniff it, and gnaw at it all day.

Strawberry fields forever.

Wolfman · 21st April 2012, 09:31 PM

Personally, I'd argue that religion of any kind doesn't "belong" in Germany, or anywhere else. However, religion exists, and the majority of the world's people believe in it in one form or another.

There are therefore, in my opinion, only two rational responses. First, outlaw all religion. This has been tried in China, Vietnam, the USSR, Cuba, etc....generally with terribly results (not only failing to eliminate religion, but causing terrible suffering in the attempt). So, while arguable a rational response, it is not terribly practical, and personally I'm opposed to it. Second, allow all of them. There's no room for saying "This religion 'belongs', but this one doesn't."

shemp · 21st April 2012, 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by Abdul Alhazred

Does that mean I win?

Don't get your hopes up.

Edited by jhunter1163:

Edited for Rule 0.

ddt · 22nd April 2012, 02:30 AM

Originally Posted by Abdul Alhazred

This guy said "Ja, tatsächlich!"

http://i42.tinypic.com/xgfyfc.jpg

You're aware that the Muslim SS unit al-Husseini helped raise was meant to stay and fight in Bosnia?

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

A conservative German politician thinks a Middle Eastern religion is not part of "German identity" and does not belong in Germany?

That's never led to anything bad before!

You mean Himmler's attempts to establish a pagan cult?

ddt · 22nd April 2012, 02:43 AM

Originally Posted by Toontown

Godwin.

That Godwin is right there in the OP.

Originally Posted by Toontown

People are slow learners. The Muslims knew they were Germans when they moved in on them. Didn't care. Moved right on in anyhow. Perhaps the Muslims thought there was some sort of unspoken understanding between them and the Germans due to the whole Muslim Jew-hate thing.

Well, surprise. There is no unspoken understanding. Except the one that says Germans are still Germans, after all those centuries and all those wars, win, lose, or draw.

Bollocks. Utter BS. All Western-European states have immigrant populations of comparable size, most of those immigrants being Muslims from North Africa and the Middle East (and Pakistan in the case of the UK). Sort this table and you'll see that France, Switzerland and the Netherlands - just to name three - have percentage-wise more Muslims than Germany.

Oliver · 22nd April 2012, 03:15 AM

Originally Posted by Abdul Alhazred

Merkel ally says Islam not part of Germany (Reuters)

This guy said "Nein!"

This guy said "Ja, tatsächlich!"

What's your point? Is there a broad disagreement about whether Muslims are an accepted part of the society or not? ... Well, there isn't.

Oystein · 22nd April 2012, 03:18 AM

Originally Posted by Wolfman

Personally, I'd argue that religion of any kind doesn't "belong" in Germany, or anywhere else. However, religion exists, and the majority of the world's people believe in it in one form or another.

There are therefore, in my opinion, only two rational responses. First, outlaw all religion. This has been tried in China, Vietnam, the USSR, Cuba, etc....generally with terribly results (not only failing to eliminate religion, but causing terrible suffering in the attempt). So, while arguable a rational response, it is not terribly practical, and personally I'm opposed to it. Second, allow all of them. There's no room for saying "This religion 'belongs', but this one doesn't."

This exactly.

I don't like the phrase "Islam belongs to Germany" ("der Islam gehört zu Deutschland" - the translation is good). I think it grew out of rejecting the negation: "Islam doesn't belong to Germany". The statement and its negation ought not be construed as a dichotomy - or if they are, it is a false one. "Zu etwas gehören" (to belong to something) is a normative statement, and obviously there is at least a third option: That there is no norm concerning the presence of Islam in Germany. Islam is a matter of fact in Germany: Millions living in Germany identify themselves as muslims, many of them with citizenship. No-one is going to mass-deport or re-educate them, so it is an obvious fact of life that Islam is in Germany. If it had so happened that there were only a handful of muslims in Germany, or none at all, would any polititian say "Islam belongs to Germany" and deduct from that norm that politics should enact programs to bring Islam to Germany? Of course not. Or what if, for whatever reason, all muslims were to emigrate or drop their faith - would any of the politicians who say that Islam belongs to Germany be very sad? Unlikely.

So why do they say this? I frankly don't know.

Dcdrac · 22nd April 2012, 04:20 AM

Its jsut a never case of the current hate group being singled out again I wander who it wil be in 40 years time.

Toontown · 22nd April 2012, 05:52 AM

Originally Posted by ddt

Bollocks. Utter BS. All Western-European states have immigrant populations of comparable size, most of those immigrants being Muslims from North Africa and the Middle East (and Pakistan in the case of the UK). Sort this table and you'll see that France, Switzerland and the Netherlands - just to name three - have percentage-wise more Muslims than Germany.

Non-sequitur.

I said nothing and meant nothing about the relative sizes of the Muslim populations of any countries or group of countries. Your attempt to identify the exact nature of my particultar thought crime du jour has failed.

Childlike Empress · 22nd April 2012, 06:18 AM

Originally Posted by Oystein

I don't like the phrase "Islam belongs to Germany" ("der Islam gehört zu Deutschland" - the translation is good). I think it grew out of rejecting the negation: "Islam doesn't belong to Germany".

Well, you should mention that in this case Kauder negates the positive statement made by former president Wulff (also a Merkel ally). Kauder is an attack dog of the Christian Democrats and his statement, I think, serves the purpose of binding the Islamophobe crowd, which unlike in most European countries still not has a relevant party in Germany, to the CDU.

"Rechts von mir ist nur die Wand".

DC · 22nd April 2012, 06:19 AM

Originally Posted by Toontown

Non-sequitur.

I said nothing and meant nothing about the relative sizes of the Muslim populations of any countries or group of countries. Your attempt to identify the exact nature of my particultar thought crime du jour has failed.

what did you mean then? i didnt udnderstand your post

Abdul Alhazred · 22nd April 2012, 07:49 AM

Originally Posted by ddt

You're aware that the Muslim SS unit al-Husseini helped raise was meant to stay and fight in Bosnia?

Sure.

Which was going to part of Greater Germany.

crimresearch · 22nd April 2012, 08:25 AM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

Fastest Godwin ever?

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

A'isha · 22nd April 2012, 08:39 AM

Originally Posted by crimresearch

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

Even if you're going strictly by the original wording of Godwin's Law, angrysoba's post is entirely correct.

A'isha · 22nd April 2012, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by Abdul Alhazred

Sure.

Which was going to part of Greater Germany.

What, Bosnia?

No it wasn't.

I Ratant · 22nd April 2012, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by Ryokan

Most of the Muslims in Germany are Turkish foreign labourers, or their descendents, who were invited to come to Germany and work in the 70s.

.
And their kids are anchor babies, just like here.

ddt · 22nd April 2012, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by I Ratant

.
And their kids are anchor babies, just like here.

Until 2000, German nationality law was based exclusively on ius sanguinis, so that ploy wouldn't work. Even now, German nationality is not automatic for children born on German soil.

ddt · 22nd April 2012, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by Dcdrac

Its jsut a never case of the current hate group being singled out again I wander who it wil be in 40 years time.

You're Moses?

ddt · 22nd April 2012, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by Toontown

Non-sequitur.

I said nothing and meant nothing about the relative sizes of the Muslim populations of any countries or group of countries. Your attempt to identify the exact nature of my particultar thought crime du jour has failed.

So what did you mean? I awfully looked like what others read into it. And why don't you just explain what you meant so we can move on with the discussion instead of keep hammering on this point.

crimresearch · 22nd April 2012, 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

Even if you're going strictly by the original wording of Godwin's Law, angrysoba's post is entirely correct.

I go by The longer an internet discussion continues, the greater the chances that some poster will make a comparison to Nazis.

The first post did not make the discussion grow longer, and no poster's coments were compared to Nazis in the OP.

A'isha · 22nd April 2012, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by crimresearch

The first post did not make the discussion grow longer

It's not that a mention of Nazis makes the thread longer, it's that a longer a thread goes on, the more likely it is that someone will mention Nazis.

By mentioning Nazis in the first post (especially regarding a news story that has nothing to do with the Nazis), the OP basically crossed the finish line before the starting gun even went off.

Quote:

and no poster's coments were compared to Nazis in the OP.

Your formulation didn't say that a poster's comments will be compared to Nazis. It said that some poster will make a comparison to Nazis. Which is exactly what the OP did.

Ergo, this thread was Godwinned in its very first post.

crimresearch · 22nd April 2012, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

It's not that a mention of Nazis makes the thread longer, it's that a longer a thread goes on, the more likely it is that someone will mention Nazis.

By mentioning Nazis in the first post (especially regarding a news story that has nothing to do with the Nazis), the OP basically crossed the finish line before the starting gun even went off.

Your formulation didn't say that a poster's comments will be compared to Nazis. It said that some poster will make a comparison to Nazis. Which is exactly what the OP did.

Ergo, this thread was Godwinned in its very first post.

There was no comparison to Nazi's at all. A photo isn't a comparison, it is documentation.
And at 1 post, a thread isn't longer than anything except zero.

So of the 2 criteria that Godwin himself set, neither is present. Merely referring to the history of that period isn't Godwinning.

I'm missing your point and reluctant to jump to conclusions... is the OP comparing 'Merkel's ally' to Nazis? Or someone else?

A'isha · 22nd April 2012, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by crimresearch

There was no comparison to Nazi's at all. A photo isn't a comparison, it is documentation.

Only if you refuse to look at the context. The OP didn't post it as a non-sequitur, after all.

Quote:

And at 1 post, a thread isn't longer than anything except zero.

No, because the conditions Mike Godwin set on length was an upper bound, not a lower bound. He was making a faux statistical statement about how Nazis tend to get mentioned in internet discussions, to make the point that the overuse of invalid Nazi comparisons robs the valid comparisons of their impact.

And saying how much the Nazis liked Islam in a thread about how a modern German politician thinks Islam has no place in modern Germany is an invalid comparison.

Quote:

I'm missing your point and reluctant to jump to conclusions... is the OP comparing 'Merkel's ally' to Nazis? Or someone else?

He's comparing Islam to Naziism. Basically, he's trying to say that Germans might not think Islam is a part of German identity these days, but back when they were Nazis they wholeheartedly embraced Islam. Therefore, Merkel's ally is right to say Islam does not belong in Germany, because the Nazis liked Islam, and modern Germany has rejected everything associated with the Nazis.

EDIT: It's basically just a reductio ad Hitlerum. "So what if he doesn't like Islam. You know who did like Islam? Hitler."

crimresearch · 22nd April 2012, 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by ANTPogo

Only if you refuse to look at the context. The OP didn't post it as a non-sequitur, after all.

No, because the conditions Mike Godwin set on length was an upper bound, not a lower bound. He was making a faux statistical statement about how Nazis tend to get mentioned in internet discussions, to make the point that the overuse of invalid Nazi comparisons robs the valid comparisons of their impact.

And saying how much the Nazis liked Islam in a thread about how a modern German politician thinks Islam has no place in modern Germany is an invalid comparison.

He's comparing Islam to Naziism. Basically, he's trying to say that Germans might not think Islam is a part of German identity these days, but back when they were Nazis they wholeheartedly embraced Islam. Therefore, Merkel's ally is right to say Islam does not belong in Germany, because the Nazis liked Islam, and modern Germany has rejected everything associated with the Nazis.

EDIT: It's basically just a reductio ad Hitlerum. "So what if he doesn't like Islam. You know who did like Islam? Hitler."

OK, and thanks for the further explanation... I can see that, although it wasn't what I took away from the OP. For me, Nazis, and the Grand Mufti's Islam are spokes on the same wheel.

But having taken your point, I'll agree with your agreement with angry soba.

Abdul Alhazred · 22nd April 2012, 04:35 PM

The only person I "compared" to a Nazi was wearing the uniform.

angrysoba · 22nd April 2012, 05:47 PM

Ooops!

ddt · 23rd April 2012, 01:14 AM

Originally Posted by Abdul Alhazred

The only person I "compared" to a Nazi was wearing the uniform.

You compared Volker Kauder, head of the CDU/CSU's parliamentary party, with Heinrich Himmler, Reichsführer SS. Himmler is the only one in the pictures in your OP wearing a uniform.

Toontown · 23rd April 2012, 06:35 AM

Originally Posted by epepke

,,,

Germany does have a genocidal, xenophobic, and nationally/culturally superior nature. This has been going along for a hell of a long time. Whether this is eternal or not remains to be seen, but it is perverse to assert that there is any evidence that this will end any time soon.

,,,

Now, the Germans are by no means the only genocidal culture. Probably every culture is genocidal; it is certainly difficult to think of one that is not.

,,,

Here is the offending statement:

"Islam is not part of our tradition and identity in Germany and so does not belong in Germany," Volker Kauder, head of Chancellor Angela Merkel's conservatives in parliament, told the Passauer Neue Presse.

But Muslims do belong in Germany. As state citizens, of course, they enjoy their full rights," he added."

I see nothing wrong with the statement. It is a simple statement of fact. "Islam" is not, in fact, a part of German culture and tradition. And there is nothing wrong with a country, culture, religion, or other group defining itself in terms of what it is and is not. OTC, it is plain common sense to include what is deemed good and exclude what is deemed inimical, if any group is to exist as such at all.

I certainly do not see Muslims, for example, being reticent to define themselves quite exclusively in terms of what they are and are not.

Would it be a thought crime if, for example, a UK politician were to state that fascism is not a part of British culture and tradition?

What about anarchy? Would it be a thought crime for a country to exclude anarchy from it's culture and tradition?

So why pick on the Germans? Define the thought crime which has been committed.

21st April 2012, 04:35 PM	#1
Abdul Alhazred Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 6,023	Does Islam belong in Germany? Merkel ally says Islam not part of Germany (Reuters) This guy said "Nein!" ... This guy said "Ja, tatsächlich!"

21st April 2012, 05:48 PM	#4
Toontown Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 6,595	No system of false beliefs belongs anywhere, if you want to get technical about it. And the Germans are known as a technical people.
Toontown Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 6,595	__________________ "I did not say that!" - Donald Trump

21st April 2012, 06:14 PM	#6
DC Banned Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 23,064	Grundgesetz Art. 4 Absatz 1, 2
DC Banned Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 23,064

21st April 2012, 06:38 PM	#8
A'isha Miss Schoolteacher Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 15,221	A conservative German politician thinks a Middle Eastern religion is not part of "German identity" and does not belong in Germany? That's never led to anything bad before!
	__________________ When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes - Desiderius Erasmus "Does [A'isha] want to end up in a gas chamber, I wonder? Because this is where the whole thing will end" - McHrozni

21st April 2012, 07:44 PM	#9
Toontown Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 6,595	Originally Posted by ANTPogo A conservative German politician thinks a Middle Eastern religion is not part of "German identity" and does not belong in Germany? That's never led to anything bad before! Godwin. People are slow learners. The Muslims knew they were Germans when they moved in on them. Didn't care. Moved right on in anyhow. Perhaps the Muslims thought there was some sort of unspoken understanding between them and the Germans due to the whole Muslim Jew-hate thing. Well, surprise. There is no unspoken understanding. Except the one that says Germans are still Germans, after all those centuries and all those wars, win, lose, or draw.
Toontown Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 6,595	__________________ "I did not say that!" - Donald Trump

21st April 2012, 04:37 PM	#2
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 32,921	Fastest Godwin ever?

21st April 2012, 05:08 PM	#3
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 19,258	One of my physicians told me he was born in Germany... 3 days from the date I was, in 1938... and was a Palestinian. He has no regard for the Germany of that period.

21st April 2012, 06:12 PM	#5
Abdul Alhazred Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 6,023	Originally Posted by angrysoba Fastest Godwin ever? Does that mean I win?

21st April 2012, 06:30 PM	#7
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 32,921	Originally Posted by Abdul Alhazred Does that mean I win? Yes, you win the title of OberGrosseReichsMufti. Tell all your friends!

21st April 2012, 08:03 PM	#10
epepke Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 9,264	Originally Posted by Toontown Godwin. People are slow learners. The Muslims knew they were Germans when they moved in on them. Didn't care. Moved right on in anyhow. Perhaps the Muslims thought there was some sort of unspoken understanding between them and the Germans due to the whole Muslim Jew-hate thing. Well, surprise. There is no unspoken understanding. Except the one that says Germans are still Germans, after all those centuries and all those wars, win, lose, or draw. There was the so-called Grand Mufti of Palestine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haj_Amin_al-Husseini Still, it pains me to admit it, because over half my DNA is German, but it's true. As long as there is a Germany, anybody who doesn't drink beer and eat roasted pigs hocks had better always look in the rear-view mirror.
epepke Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 9,264	__________________ "It probably came from a sticky dark planet far, far away." - Godzilla versus Hedora "There's no evidence that the 9-11 attacks (whoever did them) were deliberately attacking civilians. On the contrary the targets appear to have been chosen as military." -DavidByron

21st April 2012, 08:20 PM	#11
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 32,921	Originally Posted by Toontown Godwin. People are slow learners. The Muslims knew they were Germans when they moved in on them. Didn't care. Moved right on in anyhow. When they moved in on them? Does this mean that Muslims are not supposed to be able to emigrate to Germany? To move in on someone suggests some kind of imposition or invasion. Is this how you see it? Quote: Perhaps the Muslims thought there was some sort of unspoken understanding between them and the Germans due to the whole Muslim Jew-hate thing. Or perhaps this tells us more about your prejudices than those collectively held by Muslims and Germans. Quote: Well, surprise. There is no unspoken understanding. Except the one that says Germans are still Germans, after all those centuries and all those wars, win, lose, or draw. And would you like to tell us a little of this essence of Germans qua Germans?

21st April 2012, 08:40 PM	#12
Ryokan Insert something funny here Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Norway Posts: 10,678	Most of the Muslims in Germany are Turkish foreign labourers, or their descendents, who were invited to come to Germany and work in the 70s.

21st April 2012, 08:46 PM	#13
Toontown Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 6,595	Originally Posted by angrysoba When they moved in on them? Does this mean that Muslims are not supposed to be able to emigrate to Germany? To move in on someone suggests some kind of imposition or invasion. Is this how you see it? Or perhaps this tells us more about your prejudices than those collectively held by Muslims and Germans. And would you like to tell us a little of this essence of Germans qua Germans? Can the interrogation, Herr Inquisitor. I said what I said, it means what it means. You don't need to peruse it, sniff it, and gnaw at it all day. Strawberry fields forever.
Toontown Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 6,595	__________________ "I did not say that!" - Donald Trump

21st April 2012, 09:31 PM	#14
Wolfman Chief Solipsistic Autosycophant Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 13,394	Personally, I'd argue that religion of any kind doesn't "belong" in Germany, or anywhere else. However, religion exists, and the majority of the world's people believe in it in one form or another. There are therefore, in my opinion, only two rational responses. First, outlaw all religion. This has been tried in China, Vietnam, the USSR, Cuba, etc....generally with terribly results (not only failing to eliminate religion, but causing terrible suffering in the attempt). So, while arguable a rational response, it is not terribly practical, and personally I'm opposed to it. Second, allow all of them. There's no room for saying "This religion 'belongs', but this one doesn't."
	__________________ Please check out my business, The Language of Culture

22nd April 2012, 02:30 AM	#16
ddt Mafia Penguin Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Netherlands Posts: 19,579	Originally Posted by Abdul Alhazred This guy said "Ja, tatsächlich!" http://i42.tinypic.com/xgfyfc.jpg You're aware that the Muslim SS unit al-Husseini helped raise was meant to stay and fight in Bosnia? Originally Posted by ANTPogo A conservative German politician thinks a Middle Eastern religion is not part of "German identity" and does not belong in Germany? That's never led to anything bad before! You mean Himmler's attempts to establish a pagan cult?
	__________________ "I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf "I think accuracy is important" - Vixen

22nd April 2012, 02:43 AM	#17
ddt Mafia Penguin Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Netherlands Posts: 19,579	Originally Posted by Toontown Godwin. That Godwin is right there in the OP. Originally Posted by Toontown People are slow learners. The Muslims knew they were Germans when they moved in on them. Didn't care. Moved right on in anyhow. Perhaps the Muslims thought there was some sort of unspoken understanding between them and the Germans due to the whole Muslim Jew-hate thing. Well, surprise. There is no unspoken understanding. Except the one that says Germans are still Germans, after all those centuries and all those wars, win, lose, or draw. Bollocks. Utter BS. All Western-European states have immigrant populations of comparable size, most of those immigrants being Muslims from North Africa and the Middle East (and Pakistan in the case of the UK). Sort this table and you'll see that France, Switzerland and the Netherlands - just to name three - have percentage-wise more Muslims than Germany.
	__________________ "I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf "I think accuracy is important" - Vixen

22nd April 2012, 03:15 AM	#18
Oliver Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 17,396	Originally Posted by Abdul Alhazred Merkel ally says Islam not part of Germany (Reuters) This guy said "Nein!" This guy said "Ja, tatsächlich!" What's your point? Is there a broad disagreement about whether Muslims are an accepted part of the society or not? ... Well, there isn't.

22nd April 2012, 03:18 AM	#19
Oystein Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 17,785	Originally Posted by Wolfman Personally, I'd argue that religion of any kind doesn't "belong" in Germany, or anywhere else. However, religion exists, and the majority of the world's people believe in it in one form or another. There are therefore, in my opinion, only two rational responses. First, outlaw all religion. This has been tried in China, Vietnam, the USSR, Cuba, etc....generally with terribly results (not only failing to eliminate religion, but causing terrible suffering in the attempt). So, while arguable a rational response, it is not terribly practical, and personally I'm opposed to it. Second, allow all of them. There's no room for saying "This religion 'belongs', but this one doesn't." This exactly. I don't like the phrase "Islam belongs to Germany" ("der Islam gehört zu Deutschland" - the translation is good). I think it grew out of rejecting the negation: "Islam doesn't belong to Germany". The statement and its negation ought not be construed as a dichotomy - or if they are, it is a false one. "Zu etwas gehören" (to belong to something) is a normative statement, and obviously there is at least a third option: That there is no norm concerning the presence of Islam in Germany. Islam is a matter of fact in Germany: Millions living in Germany identify themselves as muslims, many of them with citizenship. No-one is going to mass-deport or re-educate them, so it is an obvious fact of life that Islam is in Germany. If it had so happened that there were only a handful of muslims in Germany, or none at all, would any polititian say "Islam belongs to Germany" and deduct from that norm that politics should enact programs to bring Islam to Germany? Of course not. Or what if, for whatever reason, all muslims were to emigrate or drop their faith - would any of the politicians who say that Islam belongs to Germany be very sad? Unlikely. So why do they say this? I frankly don't know.

22nd April 2012, 04:20 AM	#20
Dcdrac Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 5,141	Its jsut a never case of the current hate group being singled out again I wander who it wil be in 40 years time.
Dcdrac Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 5,141

22nd April 2012, 05:52 AM	#21
Toontown Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 6,595	Originally Posted by ddt Bollocks. Utter BS. All Western-European states have immigrant populations of comparable size, most of those immigrants being Muslims from North Africa and the Middle East (and Pakistan in the case of the UK). Sort this table and you'll see that France, Switzerland and the Netherlands - just to name three - have percentage-wise more Muslims than Germany. Non-sequitur. I said nothing and meant nothing about the relative sizes of the Muslim populations of any countries or group of countries. Your attempt to identify the exact nature of my particultar thought crime du jour has failed.
Toontown Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 6,595	__________________ "I did not say that!" - Donald Trump Last edited by Toontown; 22nd April 2012 at 05:55 AM.

22nd April 2012, 06:18 AM	#22
Childlike Empress Ewige Blumenkraft Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Ivory Tower Posts: 20,031	Originally Posted by Oystein I don't like the phrase "Islam belongs to Germany" ("der Islam gehört zu Deutschland" - the translation is good). I think it grew out of rejecting the negation: "Islam doesn't belong to Germany". Well, you should mention that in this case Kauder negates the positive statement made by former president Wulff (also a Merkel ally). Kauder is an attack dog of the Christian Democrats and his statement, I think, serves the purpose of binding the Islamophobe crowd, which unlike in most European countries still not has a relevant party in Germany, to the CDU. "Rechts von mir ist nur die Wand".
	__________________ "They threw the babies out of the incubators!" - Vladimir Z

22nd April 2012, 06:19 AM	#23
DC Banned Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 23,064	Originally Posted by Toontown Non-sequitur. I said nothing and meant nothing about the relative sizes of the Muslim populations of any countries or group of countries. Your attempt to identify the exact nature of my particultar thought crime du jour has failed. what did you mean then? i didnt udnderstand your post
DC Banned Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 23,064

22nd April 2012, 07:49 AM	#24
Abdul Alhazred Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 6,023	Originally Posted by ddt You're aware that the Muslim SS unit al-Husseini helped raise was meant to stay and fight in Bosnia? Sure. Which was going to part of Greater Germany.

22nd April 2012, 08:25 AM	#25
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,600	Originally Posted by angrysoba Fastest Godwin ever? I don't think that word means what you think it means.
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,600

22nd April 2012, 08:39 AM	#26
A'isha Miss Schoolteacher Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 15,221	Originally Posted by crimresearch I don't think that word means what you think it means. Even if you're going strictly by the original wording of Godwin's Law, angrysoba's post is entirely correct.
	__________________ When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes - Desiderius Erasmus "Does [A'isha] want to end up in a gas chamber, I wonder? Because this is where the whole thing will end" - McHrozni

22nd April 2012, 08:47 AM	#27
A'isha Miss Schoolteacher Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 15,221	Originally Posted by Abdul Alhazred Sure. Which was going to part of Greater Germany. What, Bosnia? No it wasn't.
	__________________ When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes - Desiderius Erasmus "Does [A'isha] want to end up in a gas chamber, I wonder? Because this is where the whole thing will end" - McHrozni

22nd April 2012, 10:57 AM	#28
I Ratant Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 19,258	Originally Posted by Ryokan Most of the Muslims in Germany are Turkish foreign labourers, or their descendents, who were invited to come to Germany and work in the 70s. . And their kids are anchor babies, just like here.

22nd April 2012, 12:00 PM	#29
ddt Mafia Penguin Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Netherlands Posts: 19,579	Originally Posted by I Ratant . And their kids are anchor babies, just like here. Until 2000, German nationality law was based exclusively on ius sanguinis, so that ploy wouldn't work. Even now, German nationality is not automatic for children born on German soil.
	__________________ "I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf "I think accuracy is important" - Vixen

22nd April 2012, 12:03 PM	#30
ddt Mafia Penguin Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Netherlands Posts: 19,579	Originally Posted by Dcdrac Its jsut a never case of the current hate group being singled out again I wander who it wil be in 40 years time. You're Moses?
	__________________ "I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf "I think accuracy is important" - Vixen

22nd April 2012, 12:06 PM	#31
ddt Mafia Penguin Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Netherlands Posts: 19,579	Originally Posted by Toontown Non-sequitur. I said nothing and meant nothing about the relative sizes of the Muslim populations of any countries or group of countries. Your attempt to identify the exact nature of my particultar thought crime du jour has failed. So what did you mean? I awfully looked like what others read into it. And why don't you just explain what you meant so we can move on with the discussion instead of keep hammering on this point.
	__________________ "I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf "I think accuracy is important" - Vixen

22nd April 2012, 01:51 PM	#32
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,600	Originally Posted by ANTPogo Even if you're going strictly by the original wording of Godwin's Law, angrysoba's post is entirely correct. I go by The longer an internet discussion continues, the greater the chances that some poster will make a comparison to Nazis. The first post did not make the discussion grow longer, and no poster's coments were compared to Nazis in the OP.
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,600

22nd April 2012, 02:19 PM	#33
A'isha Miss Schoolteacher Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 15,221	Originally Posted by crimresearch The first post did not make the discussion grow longer It's not that a mention of Nazis makes the thread longer, it's that a longer a thread goes on, the more likely it is that someone will mention Nazis. By mentioning Nazis in the first post (especially regarding a news story that has nothing to do with the Nazis), the OP basically crossed the finish line before the starting gun even went off. Quote: and no poster's coments were compared to Nazis in the OP. Your formulation didn't say that a poster's comments will be compared to Nazis. It said that some poster will make a comparison to Nazis. Which is exactly what the OP did. Ergo, this thread was Godwinned in its very first post.
	__________________ When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes - Desiderius Erasmus "Does [A'isha] want to end up in a gas chamber, I wonder? Because this is where the whole thing will end" - McHrozni

22nd April 2012, 02:49 PM	#34
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,600	Originally Posted by ANTPogo It's not that a mention of Nazis makes the thread longer, it's that a longer a thread goes on, the more likely it is that someone will mention Nazis. By mentioning Nazis in the first post (especially regarding a news story that has nothing to do with the Nazis), the OP basically crossed the finish line before the starting gun even went off. Your formulation didn't say that a poster's comments will be compared to Nazis. It said that some poster will make a comparison to Nazis. Which is exactly what the OP did. Ergo, this thread was Godwinned in its very first post. There was no comparison to Nazi's at all. A photo isn't a comparison, it is documentation. And at 1 post, a thread isn't longer than anything except zero. So of the 2 criteria that Godwin himself set, neither is present. Merely referring to the history of that period isn't Godwinning. I'm missing your point and reluctant to jump to conclusions... is the OP comparing 'Merkel's ally' to Nazis? Or someone else?
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,600

22nd April 2012, 03:17 PM	#35
A'isha Miss Schoolteacher Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Birmingham, AL Posts: 15,221	Originally Posted by crimresearch There was no comparison to Nazi's at all. A photo isn't a comparison, it is documentation. Only if you refuse to look at the context. The OP didn't post it as a non-sequitur, after all. Quote: And at 1 post, a thread isn't longer than anything except zero. No, because the conditions Mike Godwin set on length was an upper bound, not a lower bound. He was making a faux statistical statement about how Nazis tend to get mentioned in internet discussions, to make the point that the overuse of invalid Nazi comparisons robs the valid comparisons of their impact. And saying how much the Nazis liked Islam in a thread about how a modern German politician thinks Islam has no place in modern Germany is an invalid comparison. Quote: I'm missing your point and reluctant to jump to conclusions... is the OP comparing 'Merkel's ally' to Nazis? Or someone else? He's comparing Islam to Naziism. Basically, he's trying to say that Germans might not think Islam is a part of German identity these days, but back when they were Nazis they wholeheartedly embraced Islam. Therefore, Merkel's ally is right to say Islam does not belong in Germany, because the Nazis liked Islam, and modern Germany has rejected everything associated with the Nazis. EDIT: It's basically just a reductio ad Hitlerum. "So what if he doesn't like Islam. You know who did like Islam? Hitler."
	__________________ When I get a little money I buy books; and if any is left I buy food and clothes - Desiderius Erasmus "Does [A'isha] want to end up in a gas chamber, I wonder? Because this is where the whole thing will end" - McHrozni Last edited by A'isha; 22nd April 2012 at 03:26 PM.

22nd April 2012, 03:31 PM	#36
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,600	Originally Posted by ANTPogo Only if you refuse to look at the context. The OP didn't post it as a non-sequitur, after all. No, because the conditions Mike Godwin set on length was an upper bound, not a lower bound. He was making a faux statistical statement about how Nazis tend to get mentioned in internet discussions, to make the point that the overuse of invalid Nazi comparisons robs the valid comparisons of their impact. And saying how much the Nazis liked Islam in a thread about how a modern German politician thinks Islam has no place in modern Germany is an invalid comparison. He's comparing Islam to Naziism. Basically, he's trying to say that Germans might not think Islam is a part of German identity these days, but back when they were Nazis they wholeheartedly embraced Islam. Therefore, Merkel's ally is right to say Islam does not belong in Germany, because the Nazis liked Islam, and modern Germany has rejected everything associated with the Nazis. EDIT: It's basically just a reductio ad Hitlerum. "So what if he doesn't like Islam. You know who did like Islam? Hitler." OK, and thanks for the further explanation... I can see that, although it wasn't what I took away from the OP. For me, Nazis, and the Grand Mufti's Islam are spokes on the same wheel. But having taken your point, I'll agree with your agreement with angry soba.
crimresearch Alumbrado Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 10,600