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Old 10th October 2019, 02:35 AM   #1001
P.J. Denyer
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
The government tried to implement the decision and the ERG, DUP and Bojo at al prevented them from doing so.
What you're failing to understand is that in Brexit World you have to accept everything the losers of the vote warned about while the winners get to completely redefine their intended outcome.
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Old 10th October 2019, 02:38 AM   #1002
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Mrs Blue Bubble just sent me this:

Quote:

Dear ....,

We still want to wait until the end of October, if the Brexit comes. If so, it will be difficult and expensive for Professor .... to come to the UK, then a visa has to be applied for and it's not worth it for 1 day.

Best regards,
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Old 10th October 2019, 02:47 AM   #1003
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
What you're failing to understand is that in Brexit World you have to accept everything the losers of the vote warned about while the winners get to completely redefine their intended outcome.
Sqeegee Beckingham said it perfectly.
I will repeat without referring to their perfect post.

25 people entered a room.

13 wanted one outcome.
12 wanted one outcome.

the 13 won a straw poll.

Then they agreed they had differential wishes.

The 12 now claim that the 13 have run the clock and are statistically extinct.
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Old 10th October 2019, 02:49 AM   #1004
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
That's pretty simplistic. First YOU should answer the question, 'Why are economics more important than anything else? Provide your justification of your assertion.'
Well, without trying to straw man you - because you just said "anything else" let me assume you mean economic migration.

Believe it or not I do think there is a limit to the amount of immigration - skilled or otherwise - a country can sustain without its population starting to feel resentful of a feeling of erosion of their culture. Having said that:

1. Population growth as skilled migration is important to grow an economy. Maybe that's not important to you? Fair enough but it seems that most general elections the economy is usually the punching bag most used by an opposition.

2. Many of the people I have listened to about this appear to conflate EU migrant workers with the recent decade long wave of asylum seekers, illegal immigrants and people migrating to the UK on skilled migration Visas - all of which has little to do with the EU - or could be negotiated within the EU. I admit this is anecdotal though.

3. I personally see British Nationalism as a nasty vein running through the UK and yet oddly paradoxical given the often British sense of fair play and fight for the underdog. I will always be an Englishman, sometimes proud, sometimes embarrassed but not because of some ill conceived Nationalism and blind allegiance to the Queen. The history of the UK (I think) can be seen in the filter of common men and women overcoming oppression and exploitation. I know this sounds like something from Socialist Worker but the fact remains Human Rights has roots in Britain, and they didn't come easily. See https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/...rights-britain. When I say I'm proud to be English, that's what I'm talking about, not some romantic glorification of a defunct colonial super power.

I'm no pacifist, but I wouldn't fight for my Queen. I would for my countries freedom and the freedoms of its people (within obvious limits of course - I'm generally against violence of any sort and certainly not to achieve ends) .
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Old 10th October 2019, 02:50 AM   #1005
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"In an interview on ITV’s Peston last night Andrea Leadsom, the business secretary, suggested that, if Boris Johnson has to write a letter to the EU requesting a Brexit extension - which is what the Benn Act says he will have to do, if there is no deal - he might also send a second letter, making points intended to persuade EU leaders against granting an extension. "

Perhaps this was what Rasputin Cummings meant by being prepared to spend the last 2 weeks of October in the courts?

Still, it's massively dim of her to mention it. Or deliberate ****-stirring?
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Old 10th October 2019, 03:28 AM   #1006
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Secretary of State @BrandonLewis confirms that EU citizens in UK WILL be subject to full immigration enforcement and liable to removal if they miss Settled Status deadline in exclusive Interview with @StefanieBolzen in Germany's @welt
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Old 10th October 2019, 03:35 AM   #1007
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
More good news if there's a no-deal Brexit, travel insurance costs are going to rise because most EU countries will no longer accept EHIC cards.



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-49989227

No possible downside, only a considerable upside
In other good news OECD proposals to tax in the place of consumption looks set to come into effect in 2020, scuppering any North West European Island's plans to become a tax haven for international companies.
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Old 10th October 2019, 03:45 AM   #1008
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
In other good news OECD proposals to tax in the place of consumption looks set to come into effect in 2020, scuppering any North West European Island's plans to become a tax haven for international companies.
In which case we'll push for BrOECDxit as well
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Old 10th October 2019, 04:00 AM   #1009
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
In which case we'll push for BrOECDxit as well
Given the OECD is not overseen by British courts we will not be giving up our sovereignty by joining such an undemocratic organisation.
That said the incentive for businesses to locate in a low tax UK will go if they still get taxed around the world.
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Old 10th October 2019, 04:47 AM   #1010
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
"In an interview on ITVís Peston last night Andrea Leadsom, the business secretary, suggested that, if Boris Johnson has to write a letter to the EU requesting a Brexit extension - which is what the Benn Act says he will have to do, if there is no deal - he might also send a second letter, making points intended to persuade EU leaders against granting an extension. "

Perhaps this was what Rasputin Cummings meant by being prepared to spend the last 2 weeks of October in the courts?

Still, it's massively dim of her to mention it. Or deliberate ****-stirring?
As usual, there's a David Allen Green post for that:

https://davidallengreen.com/2019/09/...-the-benn-act/
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Old 10th October 2019, 04:51 AM   #1011
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Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
The best argument for not Corbyn in my view is that the caretaker PM (whose only tasks should be to get a brextension and call an election after that) should be essentially a technocrat who "doesn't want to be PM". Rather than the guy who wants to be the next PM. (I think it was you who made this argument)



But the other thing is that anyone is better than nobody, even Corbyn.
I agree.
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Old 10th October 2019, 04:53 AM   #1012
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
You should understand the difference between the promises made by government and those made by campaigns.
That government hasn't been in power for quite some time. It is an unusual viewpoint that the current parliament should have to keep to what a previous government promised.
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Old 10th October 2019, 06:31 AM   #1013
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
<snippage>
"The People" didn't for for exiting the EU without a deal, did they?
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Old 10th October 2019, 06:32 AM   #1014
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I find it incredible that some in the UK still refuse to admit the UK geographically is part of Europe and the days of "splendid Isolation" are over.
The 'Imperial Delusion' is still strong with some.
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Old 10th October 2019, 06:34 AM   #1015
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
That's pretty simplistic.

Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
First YOU should answer the question,

Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
'Why are economics more important than anything else? Provide your justification of your assertion.'
Because economic reality effects everything else.
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Old 10th October 2019, 06:36 AM   #1016
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Secretary of State @BrandonLewis confirms that EU citizens in UK WILL be subject to full immigration enforcement and liable to removal if they miss Settled Status deadline in exclusive Interview with @StefanieBolzen in Germany's @welt
One hopes he needs critical medical treatment provided by the NHS in November...
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Old 10th October 2019, 06:37 AM   #1017
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With respect to trading brexit in the markets, amazingly the conventional wisdom seems to be no deal bad (for GBP and FTSE, opposite for gilts), deal good, extension nothing much . . . .


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...rexit-outcomes
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Old 10th October 2019, 08:35 AM   #1018
ceptimus
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That government hasn't been in power for quite some time. It is an unusual viewpoint that the current parliament should have to keep to what a previous government promised.
Not when the incoming government (and the main opposition party for that matter) promised to honour the result of the referendum in their 2017 manifestos.
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Old 10th October 2019, 08:36 AM   #1019
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More Brexit good news, or more accurately another update on something which has been brought up repeatedly. In the event of a no-deal, Nissan would consider shutting down their complete European operations.

Quote:
Japanese carmaker Nissan has warned that a no-deal Brexit could make its European business model unsustainable.

Nissan's European chairman, Gianluca de Ficchy, said if a 10% export tariff was introduced after the UK left the EU it would put its operations "in jeopardy".

This would be case if the UK moved to World Trade Organization (WTO) rules after Brexit, he said.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50000530

I suppose some Brexiteers may consider it a "win" because in addition to 7,000 jobs being lost in the UK, there would be 5,000 jobs lost in Spain as well.
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Old 10th October 2019, 09:45 AM   #1020
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
That government hasn't been in power for quite some time. It is an unusual viewpoint that the current parliament should have to keep to what a previous government promised.
It should also be borne in mind that a number of those making the promises during the referendum are the government now...
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Old 10th October 2019, 09:48 AM   #1021
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Not when the incoming government (and the main opposition party for that matter) promised to honour the result of the referendum in their 2017 manifestos.
So obviously now that those who made all those outlandish promises on behalf of the Leave campaign are the government you naturally expect them to deliver £350 million a week for the NHS and a trade deal as good or better than the one we have as members of the EU?
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Old 10th October 2019, 10:04 AM   #1022
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Not when the incoming government (and the main opposition party for that matter) promised to honour the result of the referendum in their 2017 manifestos.
Then you need to be taking the likes of Smith, Mogg and Johnson to task for not keeping the manifesto promises they made when they repeatedly voted to keep the UK in the EU.
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Old 10th October 2019, 10:17 AM   #1023
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Then you need to be taking the likes of Smith, Mogg and Johnson to task for not keeping the manifesto promises they made when they repeatedly voted to keep the UK in the EU.
When did they do that?
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Old 10th October 2019, 10:23 AM   #1024
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
When did they do that?
Your memory must be going, you've posted about them not voting to leave the EU only a few weeks ago!
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Old 10th October 2019, 11:06 AM   #1025
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So when you say they voted to keep the UK in the EU, you actually meant they voted for the so-called, "Mrs May's EU withdrawal agreement."

So the opposite of what you said. No wonder I didn't understand.

As you know, I didn't think that was a good way to leave the EU. I'm glad it didn't pass and that we now have a chance to leave the EU in a more complete manner.


Actually, I still don't fully understand what you're claiming - as far as I know, Mogg only voted for May's deal once. What did you mean by 'repeatedly'?

Last edited by ceptimus; 10th October 2019 at 11:09 AM.
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Old 10th October 2019, 12:49 PM   #1026
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
So when you say they voted to keep the UK in the EU, you actually meant they voted for the so-called, "Mrs May's EU withdrawal agreement."

So the opposite of what you said. No wonder I didn't understand.

As you know, I didn't think that was a good way to leave the EU. I'm glad it didn't pass and that we now have a chance to leave the EU in a more complete manner.


Actually, I still don't fully understand what you're claiming - as far as I know, Mogg only voted for May's deal once. What did you mean by 'repeatedly'?
Opposite world must be a wonderful place.
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Old 10th October 2019, 12:58 PM   #1027
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2016:
“EU citizens will have the exact same rights as before”
“Stop scaring EU citizens with Project Fear. Nothing will change!”

2019:
“Deport the *******!”
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Old 10th October 2019, 01:47 PM   #1028
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Opposite world must be a wonderful place.
You're not making any sense. Perhaps that's your deliberate intention.
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Old 10th October 2019, 01:54 PM   #1029
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
So when you say they voted to keep the UK in the EU, you actually meant they voted for the so-called, "Mrs May's EU withdrawal agreement."


As you know, I didn't think that was a good way to leave the EU. I'm glad it didn't pass.
The referendum was to leave, May's deal was to leave. If you, Boris and other brexiteers can happily betray 17.4 million people you can not complain when others look to do the same.
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Old 10th October 2019, 02:06 PM   #1030
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
So when you say they voted to keep the UK in the EU, you actually meant they voted for the so-called, "Mrs May's EU withdrawal agreement."
...
As you know, I didn't think that was a good way to leave the EU. I'm glad it didn't pass and that we now have a chance to leave the EU in a more complete manner.
Did you vote for 'a manner' of leaving the EU? I didn't notice any mentioned on the ballot paper.
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Old 10th October 2019, 04:05 PM   #1031
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
The referendum was to leave, May's deal was to leave. If you, Boris and other brexiteers can happily betray 17.4 million people you can not complain when others look to do the same.
This is nonsense and you know it. At the time of the votes it was THE LAW that we would leave on Halloween either with or without a deal. Mogg and others mostly voted against May's deal because they thought no deal was a better way of leaving.

Mogg changed to voting for the deal on the third occasion because, by then he feared that remainers were in the ascendancy and that the choice was between May's deal and no Brexit at all. He has since stated that he now regrets having voted for the deal.

It's clear that Mogg and other ERG members, whether or not they voted for May's deal once, are all committed to leaving the EU. Only an idiot would argue otherwise.

The remainers who voted against the deal - Grieve and his pals - did so because they were opposed to any form of Brexit. Grieve will likely still vote against any deal Boris brings back from next week's summit (if the EU offer one) He is a fanatical remainer and a clear liar and hypocrite for having the gall to stand as a Tory in the 2017 election where their manifesto clearly stated that no deal was a definite possibility.

Last edited by ceptimus; 10th October 2019 at 04:07 PM.
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Old 10th October 2019, 08:58 PM   #1032
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Economy was on the top of the reasons to vote Brexit.<snip>
That may well be but that does not mean that it should have been so. The Remainers let the Leavers set the terms of the debate, much to their loss.

I think ceptimus is right. I think there should have been three pillars to the debate: social welfare, economic welfare and environmental sustainability. Too bad the Leavers made the second one drown out the other two.
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Old 10th October 2019, 11:04 PM   #1033
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
This is nonsense and you know it. At the time of the votes it was THE LAW that we would leave on Halloween either with or without a deal. Mogg and others mostly voted against May's deal because they thought no deal was a better way of leaving.

Mogg changed to voting for the deal on the third occasion because, by then he feared that remainers were in the ascendancy and that the choice was between May's deal and no Brexit at all. He has since stated that he now regrets having voted for the deal.

It's clear that Mogg and other ERG members, whether or not they voted for May's deal once, are all committed to leaving the EU. Only an idiot would argue otherwise.

The remainers who voted against the deal - Grieve and his pals - did so because they were opposed to any form of Brexit. Grieve will likely still vote against any deal Boris brings back from next week's summit (if the EU offer one) He is a fanatical remainer and a clear liar and hypocrite for having the gall to stand as a Tory in the 2017 election where their manifesto clearly stated that no deal was a definite possibility.
You are missing the point.

May's deal would have delivered the referendum promise to leave the EU. That leavers opposed it shows us that we can not assume that any particular leave deal has the popular support. We can not say that May's deal is what the public voted for. Similarly we can not say that a hard brexit is what people voted for.
You have shown the referendum can not be relied upon. Thank you for that.
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Old 10th October 2019, 11:04 PM   #1034
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Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
That may well be but that does not mean that it should have been so. The Remainers let the Leavers set the terms of the debate, much to their loss.

I think ceptimus is right. I think there should have been three pillars to the debate: social welfare, economic welfare and environmental sustainability. Too bad the Leavers made the second one drown out the other two.
Plus Brexit makes the other two worse by default.

We're left with "soverignty", "standing independently" and other such meaningless phrases.

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Old 11th October 2019, 12:14 AM   #1035
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Or "taking back control". I have often wondered which EU regulations are supposed to be so bad. Is it such a great idea to have lower standards than EU does? I've only been affected directly by an EU regulation once that I am aware of; when my city council was forced to improve the water supply because it didn't meet EU's minimum standards. It had become undrinkable at times, but now it is fine again. But I'm sure local UK authorites can save a lot of money when they are "back in control"...
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Old 11th October 2019, 12:37 AM   #1036
The Don
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Originally Posted by Ulf Nereng View Post
Or "taking back control". I have often wondered which EU regulations are supposed to be so bad. Is it such a great idea to have lower standards than EU does? I've only been affected directly by an EU regulation once that I am aware of; when my city council was forced to improve the water supply because it didn't meet EU's minimum standards. It had become undrinkable at times, but now it is fine again. But I'm sure local UK authorites can save a lot of money when they are "back in control"...
Indeed, the question of the bad EU regulations has been raised regularly and whenever an answer is given it invariably turns out to be a partial or complete lie. Boris Johnson recently waved a kipper around declaring that EU regulations forced UK producers to ship them with an ice pack. This was simply untrue, the regulation in question was a UK regulation.

In other cases, such as bendy bananas or not being able to sell bananas singly (or in too large bunches, the story changes), it turns out to be a wilful misinterpretation of the relevant EU legislation.

At least one of the claims that regularly crops up (not being able to call British sausages, sausages because of their low meat content - instead they have to be called offal tubes) comes directly from a comedy series.

The UK has voted in favour of 98% or so of EU legislation and has an opt out for the important parts of the remaining 2%. Any international relationship is going to involve both parties accepting some terms they are less than thrilled with. If the UK thinks that the EU has been unfair, wait until we see the terms of the US/UK trade deal.

Ultimately it all goes back to cowardly UK governments of all kinds blaming unpopular legislation on the EU (whether or not they had anything to do with it) and claiming credit for popular EU legislation for 40+ years. That kind of propaganda is likely to leave a very biased impression of the EU.
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Old 11th October 2019, 01:03 AM   #1037
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Indeed, the question of the bad EU regulations has been raised regularly and whenever an answer is given it invariably turns out to be a partial or complete lie. Boris Johnson recently waved a kipper around declaring that EU regulations forced UK producers to ship them with an ice pack. This was simply untrue, the regulation in question was a UK regulation.

In other cases, such as bendy bananas or not being able to sell bananas singly (or in too large bunches, the story changes), it turns out to be a wilful misinterpretation of the relevant EU legislation.

At least one of the claims that regularly crops up (not being able to call British sausages, sausages because of their low meat content - instead they have to be called offal tubes) comes directly from a comedy series.

The UK has voted in favour of 98% or so of EU legislation and has an opt out for the important parts of the remaining 2%. Any international relationship is going to involve both parties accepting some terms they are less than thrilled with. If the UK thinks that the EU has been unfair, wait until we see the terms of the US/UK trade deal.

Ultimately it all goes back to cowardly UK governments of all kinds blaming unpopular legislation on the EU (whether or not they had anything to do with it) and claiming credit for popular EU legislation for 40+ years. That kind of propaganda is likely to leave a very biased impression of the EU.
Good post The Don.
I have sent on this text to a couple of English friends here who disagree on Brexit.
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Old 11th October 2019, 01:32 AM   #1038
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Interesting video from an ardent Remainer describing what may have just happened in Ireland and how this will lead to a no-deal.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


Summary:
  • Boris Johnson has likely agreed to a deal involving a border in the Irish Sea
  • He brings this deal to parliament
  • Parliament approves it
  • There isn't sufficient time to pass the other legislation to enable the deal to be put into law by 31 October
  • The UK crashes out with no deal as planned

The ERG and DUP vote in favour of the deal because they know that the deal will never actually be implemented.
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Old 11th October 2019, 01:35 AM   #1039
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
This is nonsense and you know it. At the time of the votes it was THE LAW that we would leave on Halloween either with or without a deal. Mogg and others mostly voted against May's deal because they thought no deal was a better way of leaving.

Mogg changed to voting for the deal on the third occasion because, by then he feared that remainers were in the ascendancy and that the choice was between May's deal and no Brexit at all. He has since stated that he now regrets having voted for the deal.

It's clear that Mogg and other ERG members, whether or not they voted for May's deal once, are all committed to leaving the EU. Only an idiot would argue otherwise.

The remainers who voted against the deal - Grieve and his pals - did so because they were opposed to any form of Brexit. Grieve will likely still vote against any deal Boris brings back from next week's summit (if the EU offer one) He is a fanatical remainer and a clear liar and hypocrite for having the gall to stand as a Tory in the 2017 election where their manifesto clearly stated that no deal was a definite possibility.
LOL Rabid Brexiteer wants to hang Grieve, Gauke, Hammond and 'the Father of the House' from the nearest lamp posts as 'traitors'.

A rabid Brexiteer cannot retain a facade of reasonableness and composure for any length of time without phrases like, 'He is a fanatical remainer and a clear liar and hypocrite for having the gall to stand as a Tory in the 2017 election', bursting forth unrestrained.
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Old 11th October 2019, 01:42 AM   #1040
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Nigel has finally fessed up about who he's working for.



https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...an-propaganda?
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