ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 9th October 2019, 10:43 PM   #1
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 11,886
Is Trump Trying to Set Up an "Alternative DeepState"?

In another thread, a member said:

Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I would assert that asking Ukraine to investigate a political opponent is more than opposition research.
And I responded:

Quote:
Sorta. It's some sort of oppo research + foreign meddling weirdness there's not even a term for.

The closest thing to it I've ever heard of is the October Surprise conspiracy theory. https://sandiegofreepress.org/2017/0.../#.XZ7BO-jYrnF
I think that "foreign meddling weirdness" is basically "CIA foreign operations".

Trump's problem is that the formal Intelligence Community hates him. They're not sufficiently beholden to him, and they don't see him as their Lord and Master.

So, he's just trying to get dingbat Giuliani to start some sort of "off the books" version of the Deep State to do his bidding and serve the Trump Empire.

It's not just Ukraine.

Here, too:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...1bzkAoLnCBRdnM

Quote:
President Donald Trump pressed then-Secretary of State Rex Tillerson to help persuade the Justice Department to drop a criminal case against an Iranian-Turkish gold trader who was a client of Rudy Giuliani, according to three people familiar with the 2017 meeting in the Oval Office.

Tillerson refused, arguing it would constitute interference in an ongoing investigation of the trader, Reza Zarrab, according to the people. They said other participants in the Oval Office were shocked by the request.
Quote:
Zarrab was being prosecuted in federal court in New York at the time on charges of evading U.S. sanctions against Iran’s nuclear program. He had hired former Attorney General Michael Mukasey and Giuliani, who has said he reached out repeatedly to U.S. officials to seek a diplomatic solution for his client outside the courts.
(Charges here )
Zarrab, Jamshidy, Najafzadeh and their co-conspirators used an international network of companies located in Iran, Turkey and elsewhere to conceal from U.S. banks, OFAC and others that the transactions were on behalf of and for the benefit of Iranian entities. This network of companies includes Royal Holding A.S., a holding company in Turkey; Durak Doviz Exchange, a money services business in Turkey; Al Nafees Exchange, a money services business; Royal Emerald Investments; Asi Kiymetli Madenler Turizm Otom, a company located in Turkey; ECB Kuyumculuk Ic Vedis Sanayi Ticaret Limited Sirketi, a company located in Turkey; and Gunes General Trading LLC; and others. As a result of this scheme, the co-conspirators induced U.S. banks to unknowingly process international financial transactions in violation of the IEEPA.

Each defendant is charged with conspiracies to defraud the United States, to violate the IEEPA, to commit bank fraud and to commit money laundering.


Quote:
‘Prisoner Swap’
In a phone interview this month, Giuliani initially denied that he ever raised Zarrab’s case with Trump but later said he might have done so. He said he’d been speaking with U.S. officials as part of his effort to arrange a swap of Zarrab for Andrew Brunson, an American pastor jailed in Turkey who was later released in 2018.

Suppose I did talk to Trump about it -- so what? I was a private lawyer at the time,” Giuliani said. “Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe at some point I dropped his name in a conversation. Or maybe one of his people talked to him about it because I was trying to do a prisoner swap.”

Giuliani said he discussed the Zarrab case with State Department officials and disclosed that two years ago, although he declined to say if he ever spoke directly to Tillerson about the case, saying “you have no right to know that.”
Sure seems to me like Trump and Giuliani are trying to set up their own little Trump-specific CIA-esque network.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.

Last edited by kellyb; 9th October 2019 at 10:44 PM.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th October 2019, 11:18 PM   #2
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 9,766
Of course he is - selecting people for loyalty instead of competency is a necessary step if you want to set up a government-within-the-government.
The kind of people he nominates, and the kind of posts he doesn't fill with Senate-confirmed people shows that he distrusts anyone who he didn't personally hire and can fire whenever.
Another dead give-away is his constant attempt at dividing federal workers into "Democrats" and and everyone else.
And yes, recruiting foreign services, such as those of Israel and the attempted Ukraine, to do your bidding is an unconstitutional circumvention of Congress.

In short: Trump is breaking is oath of Office systematically and continuously.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th October 2019, 02:05 AM   #3
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 12,500
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Sure seems to me like Trump and Giuliani are trying to set up their own little Trump-specific CIA-esque network.
The trouble is, they don't have the task-specific resources required to do that, and bumbling idiots like Rudy Giuliani are too stupid to cut that particular brand of mustard.

Members of the formal intelligence community have resources, assets and contacts in foreign countries all over the globe; ones that only they know about. Trump blew the cover of the CIA's inside man in the Kremlin, so they are going to make doubly sure that Trump and his lackeys never get to find out who and where the rest of their assets are. That might extend to the CIA destroying or hiding identifying documents, and keeping such information well hidden on a need-to-know basis.
__________________
“Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore - if they're white!"
If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list.
This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th October 2019, 02:22 AM   #4
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 8,755
I have a similar problem with that idea:

Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Sure seems to me like Trump and Giuliani are trying to set up their own little Trump-specific CIA-esque network.

It makes them sound devious and calculating to an extent that they're not capable of. They might wish to be, i.e. I don't mean they are morally incapable, but they would never be able to pull off something like that at the planning stage.
That is why Trump always laments that he longer has access to Roy Cohn (Wikipedia) or somebody like him.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 10th October 2019 at 02:23 AM.
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th October 2019, 02:27 AM   #5
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 9,766
It is scary to think that any Community Organizer (just to take a random profession) would have had no problem setting up the Ukraine call/pressure campaign in such a way that no whistleblower would have been the wiser.
Trump's incompetence is his only somewhat redeeming quality.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th October 2019, 03:19 AM   #6
Porpoise of Life
Illuminator
 
Porpoise of Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,873
Setting up a secret shadow police loyal only to Trump sounds too much like work for him to try. Too much vetting and planning and thinking and not enough praise and cheeseburgers.
He might fantasize about it though.
Porpoise of Life is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th October 2019, 04:06 AM   #7
applecorped
Rotten to the Core
 
applecorped's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 19,755
Yes it's all part of the New World Order. Shouldn't this be moved to the conspiracy theory section?
__________________
All You Need Is Love.
applecorped is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th October 2019, 04:09 AM   #8
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 9,766
Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Yes it's all part of the New World Order. Shouldn't this be moved to the conspiracy theory section?
not part of the New World Order, since neither the Bilderberg Group nor the Rosicrucians would ever let Trump join.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th October 2019, 09:22 AM   #9
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 38,337
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Trump's problem is that the formal Intelligence Community hates him. They're not sufficiently beholden to him, and they don't see him as their Lord and Master.
This is probably the clearest argument I have yet seen, for the existence of a "deep state" of functionaries in the US government who are actively and secretly working against the President's administration.

The fact is that the US intelligence services are agencies of the Executive branch. The President is absolutely the master of the CIA. "Not sufficiently beholden" to the president is a legitimate concern, and an actual breach of trust and duty when it occurs. The options for Exceutive branch employees are: to work for the President, or to resign. Staying on, and working against the president, is both unethical and anti-democratic. Probably illegal, too. Certainly it justifies - requires, even - retaliation in the form of dismissal and possibly other sanctions.

---

Beside the serious problem of CIA employees using their government positions to oppose and undermine the constitutional authority they were hired to serve - the "deep state" - there are other problems with latching onto the CIA here.

For one thing, it's the CIA. This is an entity whose reputation for illegal, unconstitutional, and extrajudicial shenanigans is legendary. The idea that they're a dispassionate arbiter of what the US presidency should be is naive at best. (Leaving aside the obvious and serious problem that the CIA is absolutely *not* the arbiter of what the presidency should be.)

For another thing, it's the CIA. It's the US intelligence community that missed the Boston Marathon bombing. That failed to detect and counter the Russian election interference. That botched the signals leading up to the Benghazi attack. It's not reasonable to assume that they know what they're doing, and are doing the right thing, in this case.

For yet another thing, it's the ************* CIA. These are the people that went along enthusiastically with drone-strike assassination, extraordinary rendition, and enhanced interrogation literally torture. This is the organization that trained, retained, and promoted this woman. It's absurd to think that the people who went along with waterboarding are now taking a stand against Trump on principle.

---

While I think it's important to take the concerns of the US intelligence community seriously, I think it's also important to take those concerns with a grain of salt. The fact that Excecutive branch employees who dissent from the president are choosing to keep their jobs and use them to undermine the President seriously damages the credibility of their claim of principled opposition. They are, quite often, incompetent douchebags with a proven willingness to do bad things for bad reasons.

Last edited by theprestige; 10th October 2019 at 09:25 AM.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th October 2019, 11:33 AM   #10
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 11,886
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
This is probably the clearest argument I have yet seen, for the existence of a "deep state" of functionaries in the US government who are actively and secretly working against the President's administration.

The fact is that the US intelligence services are agencies of the Executive branch. The President is absolutely the master of the CIA. "Not sufficiently beholden" to the president is a legitimate concern, and an actual breach of trust and duty when it occurs. The options for Exceutive branch employees are: to work for the President, or to resign. Staying on, and working against the president, is both unethical and anti-democratic. Probably illegal, too. Certainly it justifies - requires, even - retaliation in the form of dismissal and possibly other sanctions.
Well, their oath is to the constitution, to defend it "against all enemies, foreign and domestic".

That said, it's generally been considered "the president's private army."

What are they supposed to do (even hypothetically) if someone who is the enemy of the constitution is the President? I know you said "resign", but what if they know their resignation will just result in some Yes Man who is likewise an enemy of the constitution just taking their place?


Quote:
Beside the serious problem of CIA employees using their government positions to oppose and undermine the constitutional authority they were hired to serve - the "deep state" - there are other problems with latching onto the CIA here.

For one thing, it's the CIA. This is an entity whose reputation for illegal, unconstitutional, and extrajudicial shenanigans is legendary. The idea that they're a dispassionate arbiter of what the US presidency should be is naive at best. (Leaving aside the obvious and serious problem that the CIA is absolutely *not* the arbiter of what the presidency should be.)

For another thing, it's the CIA. It's the US intelligence community that missed the Boston Marathon bombing. That failed to detect and counter the Russian election interference. That botched the signals leading up to the Benghazi attack. It's not reasonable to assume that they know what they're doing, and are doing the right thing, in this case.

For yet another thing, it's the ************* CIA. These are the people that went along enthusiastically with drone-strike assassination, extraordinary rendition, and enhanced interrogation literally torture. This is the organization that trained, retained, and promoted this woman. It's absurd to think that the people who went along with waterboarding are now taking a stand against Trump on principle.

---

While I think it's important to take the concerns of the US intelligence community seriously, I think it's also important to take those concerns with a grain of salt. The fact that Excecutive branch employees who dissent from the president are choosing to keep their jobs and use them to undermine the President seriously damages the credibility of their claim of principled opposition. They are, quite often, incompetent douchebags with a proven willingness to do bad things for bad reasons.
I don't take the CIA claims on faith basically ever, and I'm skeptical of the goodness of their motives under the BEST of circumstances.

So, I'm not "latching on" to them here. I just think this might be a time where snitching on the POTUS actually might be defending the constitution. I wish they snitched more often, actually. Their lack of snitching and loyalty to the agency and the presidents over the constitution is part of what's messed up the entire globe.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th October 2019, 11:52 AM   #11
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 38,337
Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Setting up a secret shadow police loyal only to Trump sounds too much like work for him to try. Too much vetting and planning and thinking and not enough praise and cheeseburgers.
The CIA has a first to market advantage, here. They're already set up as a secret shadow police. The vetting and planning and thinking has mostly been done already. It just remains for them to pick and choose where their loyalties lie.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th October 2019, 11:57 AM   #12
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 38,337
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Well, their oath is to the constitution, to defend it "against all enemies, foreign and domestic".

That said, it's generally been considered "the president's private army."

What are they supposed to do (even hypothetically) if someone who is the enemy of the constitution is the President? I know you said "resign", but what if they know their resignation will just result in some Yes Man who is likewise an enemy of the constitution just taking their place?
Resign. Notify Congress of their concerns. Engage in civil disobedience.

Or even - get this - stay in their jobs and secretly work to block and undermine the presidency. But if they choose this option, then there absolutely is a "deep state", and they absolutely are a part of it, and you are absolutely wrong to dismiss it as a conspiracy theory. If that's what they're actually doing, then it's just a conspiracy, and the only question left for you to answer is whether or not you support it.

Quote:
I don't take the CIA claims on faith basically ever, and I'm skeptical of the goodness of their motives under the BEST of circumstances.

So, I'm not "latching on" to them here. I just think this might be a time where snitching on the POTUS actually might be defending the constitution. I wish they snitched more often, actually. Their lack of snitching and loyalty to the agency and the presidents over the constitution is part of what's messed up the entire globe.
Fair enough. I have no objections here.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th October 2019, 12:13 PM   #13
mumblethrax
Species traitor
 
mumblethrax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,404
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Or even - get this - stay in their jobs and secretly work to block and undermine the presidency. But if they choose this option, then there absolutely is a "deep state", and they absolutely are a part of it, and you are absolutely wrong to dismiss it as a conspiracy theory.
I take that as evidence of independence, rather than as evidence of the existence of a deep state.

"Deep state" implies a shadowy agenda among elite officials, not simply actions taken to limit the destructive potential of a rank incompetent. The actions, and the identity of the actors might be secret, but the agenda is not. I mean, they write letters to the New York Times about it.
mumblethrax is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th October 2019, 12:24 PM   #14
Horatius
NWO Kitty Wrangler
 
Horatius's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 27,331
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Or even - get this - stay in their jobs and secretly work to block and undermine the presidency. But if they choose this option, then there absolutely is a "deep state", and they absolutely are a part of it, and you are absolutely wrong to dismiss it as a conspiracy theory. If that's what they're actually doing, then it's just a conspiracy, and the only question left for you to answer is whether or not you support it.


It's that "If" part that's the bugger. You mention "stay in their jobs and secretly work to block and undermine the presidency", but what they're really doing is staying in their jobs, and doing those jobs the way they're supposed to be done. It's not their fault that Trump perceives being told the truth as "undermining him".

At the end of the day, the job of the entire US intelligence system is to give the President the best information they can, so he can make the best decisions he can. It's not their fault he refuses to listen to them, and it's not their job to just tell him what he wants to hear. That's not a "deep state", it's professionalism.

If they happen to be keeping notes about all the mistakes he's making, well, that just standard ass-covering.
__________________
Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd
Horatius is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th October 2019, 01:08 PM   #15
Axxman300
Illuminator
 
Axxman300's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Central California Coast
Posts: 3,983
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
This is probably the clearest argument I have yet seen, for the existence of a "deep state" of functionaries in the US government who are actively and secretly working against the President's administration.
I hope this is true.


Quote:
The fact is that the US intelligence services are agencies of the Executive branch. The President is absolutely the master of the CIA.
Wrong, the CIA answers to the Senate, Congress. The White House NSC can initiate operations and the Agency is accountable to the President on those operations.

Quote:
"Not sufficiently beholden" to the president is a legitimate concern, and an actual breach of trust and duty when it occurs.
When your POTUS is a Russian puppet hack then your duty is to serve the Constitution.

Quote:
The options for Exceutive branch employees are: to work for the President, or to resign. Staying on, and working against the president, is both unethical and anti-democratic. Probably illegal, too. Certainly it justifies - requires, even - retaliation in the form of dismissal and possibly other sanctions.
The CIA is not part of the Executive Branch, they are an independent Government agency OVERSEEN by the Executive Branch. Just like the FBI and the US Forest Service. If your POTUS is undermining National Security it is your Constitutional duty to stop him or her.

Quote:
Beside the serious problem of CIA employees using their government positions to oppose and undermine the constitutional authority they were hired to serve - the "deep state" - there are other problems with latching onto the CIA here.
And yet most work within the law while the current White House faults the Constitution.

Quote:
For one thing, it's the CIA. This is an entity whose reputation for illegal, unconstitutional, and extrajudicial shenanigans is legendary.
And as with all legends most of facts are ignored.

Quote:
The idea that they're a dispassionate arbiter of what the US presidency should be is naive at best. (Leaving aside the obvious and serious problem that the CIA is absolutely *not* the arbiter of what the presidency should be.)
Nobody at CIA claims they are this.

Quote:
For another thing, it's the CIA. It's the US intelligence community that missed the Boston Marathon bombing.
No, that would be the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI). The FBI is responsible for internal counter-terror matters and they EVEN RECEIVED A PHONE CALL FROM THE RUSSIANS WARNING THEM ABOUT THE TWO BOMBERS and did a half-assed investigation.


Quote:
That failed to detect and counter the Russian election interference.
Did they? The FBI briefed Obama about it. He's the one who dropped the ball.

Quote:
That botched the signals leading up to the Benghazi attack.
Did they? Ambassador Stevens ignored the standard 9/11 travel warnings for the Middle East and decided to leave the safety of the US Embassy in Tripoli and stay at the diplomatic compound guarded by only an handful of DSS agents and unreliable local militia. The attack on their compound was a follow-on mission by the Al Qaeda affiliate still high on the first attack.

CIA is still in Libya doing the same job without incident BTW.

Quote:
It's not reasonable to assume that they know what they're doing, and are doing the right thing, in this case.
Based on your grasp of the facts this is a ringing endorsement.

Quote:
For yet another thing, it's the ************* CIA. These are the people that went along enthusiastically with drone-strike assassination, extraordinary rendition, and enhanced interrogation literally torture.
Like I said, the White House NSC can initiate operations using the CIA. All of those things came through the Oval Office, and Congress signed off on all of them too. Bush was re-elected, Obama was re-elected, and most of the Senate and House Intelligence Committee Members remain unchanged in spite of the "public uproar".

Quote:
This is the organization that trained, retained, and promoted this woman. It's absurd to think that the people who went along with waterboarding are now taking a stand against Trump on principle.
You don't know that Haspel is against Trump. If anything she deserves a medal for juggling the truck load of doo-doo sandwiches she's handed by this White House on a weekly basis.

The sad fact is that the Deep State hasn't stopped any of Trump's messed up policies. I don't know what all the whining is about.
__________________
Disingenuous Piranha

Last edited by Axxman300; 10th October 2019 at 01:11 PM.
Axxman300 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th October 2019, 01:13 PM   #16
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 38,337
Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
I take that as evidence of independence, rather than as evidence of the existence of a deep state.

"Deep state" implies a shadowy agenda among elite officials, not simply actions taken to limit the destructive potential of a rank incompetent. The actions, and the identity of the actors might be secret, but the agenda is not. I mean, they write letters to the New York Times about it.
This seems like equivocation.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th October 2019, 01:28 PM   #17
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 76,060
I think it's pretty obvious Trump isn't setting anything up, he's simply operating under a system of back room dealing. The exchange with Zelensky comes to light and it turns out Trump is back-door dealing with Erdogan and there have been exchanges with China where Trump offered to not object to Hong Kong dealings for whatever. There were long off-the-record discussions with Putin that the public appears numb to by the way it was simply forgotten.

This is Trump's business pattern, it's not him setting up a deep state unless you are counting all the cronies Trump has surrounded himself with as a calculated deep state.
__________________
That new avatar is cuteness overload.
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 10th October 2019 at 02:36 PM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th October 2019, 01:59 PM   #18
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 11,886
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
This is Trump's business pattern, it not him setting up a deep state unless you are including all the cronies Trump has surrounded himself with.
Of course I'm including the cronies!

Let's look at what Rick Perry's been up to in Ukraine:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...ption-ukraine/
Quote:
It’s a complicated story involving a bunch of different characters, including Rudolph W. Giuliani, the president’s “lawyer.” The most newsworthy part is that Perry reportedly urged the Ukrainian government to fire the board of its state-owned gas company, Naftogaz, and install on the board some Americans who had given large donations to the Republican Party — in apparent furtherance of their interests and those of some other large GOP donors who happen to be Giuliani’s clients.
Quote:
Giuliani has two clients, Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman, Soviet-born real estate entrepreneurs from Florida who are in partnership with an oil magnate named Harry Sargeant III; they’re trying to get a deal to import liquefied natural gas to Ukraine. All have given hundreds of thousands of dollars to Republicans, and while Giuliani was running around Ukraine trying to gin up an investigation of Joe Biden and his son Hunter, the three were trying to get the Naftogaz CEO removed so that an executive more friendly to their own ambitions to sell liquefied ] natural gas to Ukraine could be installed.

The AP reports that Sargeant reportedly told this Ukrainian executive “that he regularly meets with Trump at Mar-a-Lago and that the gas-sales plan had the president’s full support.” The executive “perceived it to be a shakedown.” At the same time, Parnas was going around telling people that the U.S. ambassador to Ukraine, Marie Yovanovich, was about to be removed because she wasn’t friendly enough to their business interests. Months later, Trump did indeed recall Yovanovich from her post. “The ambassador to Ukraine was replaced,” Giuliani told reporters. “I did play a role in that.”
Quote:
Here’s where Rick Perry comes in, on his own trip to Ukraine:

A second meeting during the trip, at a Kyiv hotel, included Ukrainian officials and energy sector people. There, Perry made clear that the Trump administration wanted to see the entire Naftogaz supervisory board replaced, according to a person who attended both meetings. Perry again referenced the list of advisers that he had given [Ukrainian President Volodymyr] Zelenskiy, and it was widely interpreted that he wanted Michael Bleyzer, a Ukrainian-American businessman from Texas, to join the newly formed board, the person said. Also on the list was Robert Bensh, another Texan who frequently works in Ukraine, the Energy Department confirmed.
Bleyzer is also a big Republican donor.
On one level it's basic (tho extreme) corruption, and on another it's something entirely worse and stranger.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th October 2019, 02:02 PM   #19
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 11,886
Just now! https://www.latimes.com/politics/sto...mpaign-finance

Quote:
WASHINGTON — Two associates of Rudolph W. Giuliani, President Trump’s personal lawyer, have been arrested on charges of violating campaign finance laws in connection with their efforts to “funnel foreign money” from Russia into President Trump’s campaign.
The two men were also involved in efforts to oust the then-U.S. ambassador to Ukraine, according to the indictment. The arrests of the two businessmen, Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman, both based in Florida, open a new front in the fast-developing Ukraine scandal, which already has led to an impeachment inquiry against Trump.
Quote:
The two were arrested Wednesday night at Dulles International Airport as they tried to flee the country, according to a U.S. law enforcement official. Shortly after arrests were announced Thursday, they were subpoenaed by House Democrats to provide documents and depositions in the impeachment case.

Giuliani has publicly said that the two helped connect him with Ukrainian prosecutors. At the time Giuliani was pushing the Ukrainians to open an investigation into former Vice President Joe Biden.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th October 2019, 02:17 PM   #20
mumblethrax
Species traitor
 
mumblethrax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,404
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
This seems like equivocation.
It's not.
mumblethrax is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th October 2019, 02:21 PM   #21
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 45,575
If you are setting up a secret government cabel,you have to keep alow profile if you are doing it, and Donnie is incapable of keeping a low profile.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th October 2019, 02:36 PM   #22
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 76,060
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
If you are setting up a secret government cabel,you have to keep alow profile if you are doing it, and Donnie is incapable of keeping a low profile.
It has become obvious, Trump is incapable of doing business any other way but the corrupt way. He's also incapable of staying away from the foreign money trough.
__________________
That new avatar is cuteness overload.
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th October 2019, 05:59 PM   #23
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 11,886
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
If you are setting up a secret government cabel,you have to keep alow profile if you are doing it, and Donnie is incapable of keeping a low profile.
I'd assume there are plenty of well-resourced, competent criminals out there who would be more than willing to help him with this project (whatever you want to call it,) but they know to stay away from him because he's just so BAD at this. Like asking the Russians on live TV to help him get Hillary's emails. He probably purged his potential pool of "talent" he could draw from by upwards of 90% with that move alone. He's reduced to having to use people like Giuliani and Rick Perry for his most sensitive "operations".
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th October 2019, 12:05 AM   #24
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 12,500
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
This is probably the clearest argument I have yet seen, for the existence of a "deep state" of functionaries in the US government who are actively and secretly working against the President's administration.
I see it as evidence of functionaries in the US Government working FOR that thing they swore to uphold and defend against all enemies, both foreign and domestic... the United States Constitution.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The fact is that the US intelligence services are agencies of the Executive branch.
Wrong! They are agencies of Congress.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The President is absolutely the master of the CIA.
Wrong again.


Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
"Not sufficiently beholden" to the president is a legitimate concern, and an actual breach of trust and duty when it occurs.
Nope. Only Monarchs and Dictators legitimately demand and receive loyalty.

Elected officials hold their office at the behest of the people, they work for the people, and they owe their loyalty to the people, not the other way around.


Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The options for Exceutive branch employees are: to work for the President, or to resign.
Nope. Executive branch employees do not owe their allegiance to the President, they owe it to the Constitution. Every Federal employee, without exception, and including the President, is required by law to take an oath to support and defend the Constitution. The Oath of Office is be administered on the first day of employment.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Staying on, and working against the president, is both unethical and anti-democratic. Probably illegal too.
Wrong again.

If the President is breaking the Law (and if you are being honest with yourself, you have to admit that this President is a serial law-breaker) and you are a Federal employee who is working for him, and you help him to break the Law rather than work against him, then YOU are breaking the Law too, and you can go to jail for that. Just ask John Mitchell, Richard Kleindienst, Bob Haldeman, John Ehrlichman, John Dean, Dwight Chapin, Maurice Stans, et al

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Certainly it justifies - requires, even - retaliation in the form of dismissal and possibly other sanctions.
No, that is not what the Law says. The Law is supposed to protect whistle-blowers. They are not supposed to get death threats from from the president.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Beside the serious problem of CIA employees using their government positions to oppose and undermine the constitutional authority they were hired to serve - the "deep state" - there are other problems with latching onto the CIA here.

For one thing, it's the CIA. This is an entity whose reputation for illegal, unconstitutional, and extrajudicial shenanigans is legendary. The idea that they're a dispassionate arbiter of what the US presidency should be is naive at best. (Leaving aside the obvious and serious problem that the CIA is absolutely *not* the arbiter of what the presidency should be.)

For another thing, it's the CIA. It's the US intelligence community that missed the Boston Marathon bombing. That failed to detect and counter the Russian election interference. That botched the signals leading up to the Benghazi attack. It's not reasonable to assume that they know what they're doing, and are doing the right thing, in this case.

For yet another thing, it's the ************* CIA. These are the people that went along enthusiastically with drone-strike assassination, extraordinary rendition, and enhanced interrogation literally torture. This is the organization that trained, retained, and promoted this woman. It's absurd to think that the people who went along with waterboarding are now taking a stand against Trump on principle.

---

While I think it's important to take the concerns of the US intelligence community seriously, I think it's also important to take those concerns with a grain of salt. The fact that Excecutive branch employees who dissent from the president are choosing to keep their jobs and use them to undermine the President seriously damages the credibility of their claim of principled opposition. They are, quite often, incompetent douchebags with a proven willingness to do bad things for bad reasons.
You just descended into a rant worthy of you Dear Leader

For an American, your knowledge of the workings of your own country is abysmally lacking
__________________
“Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore - if they're white!"
If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list.
This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th October 2019, 11:13 PM   #25
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 11,886
Fascinating blast from the past:

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-...181-story.html

Quote:
October Surprise’ Inquiry Hits Obstacle : Congress: Republicans block move to launch Senate investigation into the alleged 1980 hostage scheme. Plans for the probe are now in limbo.
Quote:
With five of the Senate’s 57 Democrats absent, the nearly straight party-line vote fell nine short of the 60 votes needed to end the filibuster led by Republican committee members Richard G. Lugar of Indiana and Jesse Helms of North Carolina.

The Republican position was angrily reiterated earlier by Sen. Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.), who said the rumors of an arms-for-hostages deal ultimately designed to prevent Carter from being reelected had been kept alive over the years by the “ravings” of “liars, felons and flat-out flakes.” The Senate, he said, “should not finance a fantasy.”
Quote:
“Two things did occur,” Senate Majority Leader George J. Mitchell (D-Me.) added. “We know the release of the hostages was delayed until moments after President Reagan took office and we know that shortly after taking office President Reagan authorized the transfer of arms to Iran.”

Only an investigation can determine whether those two events “occurred independently and totally coincidentally, or as a result of a secret agreement,” Mitchell said.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2019, 11:24 AM   #26
Agatha
Winking at the Moon
Moderator
 
Agatha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 12,832
Mod Warning Dial down the personalisations and address the arguments, please.
Posted By:Agatha
__________________
Why can't you be more like Agatha? - Loss Leader
Agatha is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2019, 11:43 AM   #27
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 38,337
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I see it as evidence of functionaries in the US Government working FOR that thing they swore to uphold and defend against all enemies, both foreign and domestic... the United States Constitution.
That's an argument that has some merit. I'm not knee-jerk opposed to that kind of thing, even. But let's be clear: This is an argument that defends deep state behavior, not an argument that denies that it's going on.

The way I see it, deep state behavior, if it's going to be justified at all, has to be justified on the same basis as black ops: Sometimes you have to do unethical or illegal things for what you believe is the higher good. And that's okay, but if you get caught, you have to pay the consequences. You can't pretend you weren't doing it, or that your higher good gives you a free pass.
theprestige is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2019, 02:28 PM   #28
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 11,886
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That's an argument that has some merit. I'm not knee-jerk opposed to that kind of thing, even. But let's be clear: This is an argument that defends deep state behavior, not an argument that denies that it's going on.

The way I see it, deep state behavior, if it's going to be justified at all, has to be justified on the same basis as black ops: Sometimes you have to do unethical or illegal things for what you believe is the higher good. And that's okay, but if you get caught, you have to pay the consequences. You can't pretend you weren't doing it, or that your higher good gives you a free pass.
My new favorite word is "spookocracy":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterintelligence_state

Much has been written in the academic literature about how that works in Russia, but not much here.

The Russian have a word: Silovik
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silovik

Quote:
In the Russian political lexicon, a silovik (Russian: силови́к, IPA: [sʲɪlɐˈvʲik]; plural: siloviki, Russian: силовики́, IPA: [sʲɪləvʲɪˈkʲi]) is a politician who came into politics from the security, military, or similar services, often the officers of the former KGB, GRU, FSB, SVR, the Federal Drug Control Service, or other armed services who came into power. A similar term is "securocrat" (law enforcement and intelligence officer).

Applying this to the US, obviously Bush Sr was, probably beginning his CIA (and under coup-like conditions). Possibly others. If you go with the whole "The CIA was running drugs out of other countries and into Arkansas, under Reagan/Bush Sr, while Bill Clinton was Governor or AR" theory of recent American history, it all makes a bit of sense. But that's neither here nor there! We'll probably never know.

Back to current events:
There are the whistleblowers/leaker/snitches. Trump has been surrounded by people with careers in intelligence and national security who have been undermining him and leaking to the press his whole presidency. (Good for them, I say, since I hate the guy.)

Then in congress, for impeachment:
https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/28/polit...ped/index.html

Quote:
(CNN)When a group of moderate House freshmen Democrats moved from hard no to hell yes on starting an impeachment inquiry into President Donald Trump, they changed the dynamic for House Democrats, and indeed -- the course of history.

The reason they made their announcement and explained their reasoning as a group, in an op-ed in The Washington Post, is because they had already formed a bond over their national security background -- especially the five women: Elissa Slotkin of Michigan and Abigail Spanberger of Virginia, both ex-CIA officers; Chrissy Houlahan of Pennsylvania who was in the Air Force; Mikie Sherrill of New Jersey and Rep. Elaine Luria of Virginia were Naval officers.
So... US siloviks. (we need an American English word!)

I guess I'm siding with the spooks. At least they swore an oath to the constitution. I'm less than comfortable just embracing our status as a spookocracy ("counter-intelligence state"), though.

I'm honestly unsure what to make of any of this.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2019, 03:52 AM   #29
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 12,500
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That's an argument that has some merit. I'm not knee-jerk opposed to that kind of thing, even. But let's be clear: This is an argument that defends deep state behavior, not an argument that denies that it's going on.

The way I see it, deep state behavior, if it's going to be justified at all, has to be justified on the same basis as black ops: Sometimes you have to do unethical or illegal things for what you believe is the higher good. And that's okay, but if you get caught, you have to pay the consequences. You can't pretend you weren't doing it, or that your higher good gives you a free pass.
The so-called "Deep State" is what nutjob conspiracy theorists blame for the JFK assassination, the RFK assassination, the alleged faking of the moon landings, the Oklahoma City bombing, and a number of alleged "false flag" operations such as 9/11, the Sandy Hook massacre and the Boston Marathon bombing.

The reality is that the "Deep State" is pure, unadulterated BS. It is a fiction, latched onto by Trump and his hangers-on in an act of political expediency, in order to hide the truth about their own corruption.

https://dailyillini.com/opinions/201...eny-the-truth/

"This “deep state” theory is often used as a remedy to reading news whose truth is inconvenient or inconsistent with one’s beliefs.

- The news reports on a study that disproves a belief of yours? It is fake news disseminated by the “deep state.”

- Your favorite politician lost their election? The “deep state” rigged the election.

- There is incontrovertible proof that your favorite politician was involved in a scandal? The “deep state” doctored the footage."


There is no such thing is a "Deep State"
__________________
“Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore - if they're white!"
If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list.
This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2019, 06:27 AM   #30
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 11,886
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
There is no such thing is a "Deep State"
Not even in Turkey?
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2019, 07:12 AM   #31
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 9,766
There is institutional inertia - which for the purposes of a clueless outsider put in charge might look like a strategic effort to undermine him.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2019, 07:12 AM   #32
Safe-Keeper
Philosopher
 
Safe-Keeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 8,580
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
The reality is that the "Deep State" is pure, unadulterated BS. It is a fiction, latched onto by Trump and his hangers-on in an act of political expediency, in order to hide the truth about their own corruption.
Which is of course just classic CT mentality. If facts don't say what you want to hear, there's something wrong with the facts, never your beliefs.

"Vaccines aren't safe!"
"But research shows they are perfectly safe."
"Oh. Let me invent this conspiracy theory that scientists are corrupt!"
"But the media and watchdog organisations would discover that right away!"
"Oh. Let me invent a second conspiracy theory that the media is corrupt".
"Wouldn't there be public outrage if that was the case?"
"Oh. Let me invent this third conspiracy theory..."
__________________
In choosing to support humanitarian organizations, it's best to choose those that do not have "militant wings" (Mycroft, 2013)
Safe-Keeper is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2019, 10:28 AM   #33
Hans
Philosopher
 
Hans's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 7,940
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
The so-called "Deep State" is what nutjob conspiracy theorists blame for the JFK assassination, the RFK assassination, the alleged faking of the moon landings, the Oklahoma City bombing, and a number of alleged "false flag" operations such as 9/11, the Sandy Hook massacre and the Boston Marathon bombing.

The reality is that the "Deep State" is pure, unadulterated BS. It is a fiction, latched onto by Trump and his hangers-on in an act of political expediency, in order to hide the truth about their own corruption.

https://dailyillini.com/opinions/201...eny-the-truth/

"This “deep state” theory is often used as a remedy to reading news whose truth is inconvenient or inconsistent with one’s beliefs.

- The news reports on a study that disproves a belief of yours? It is fake news disseminated by the “deep state.”

- Your favorite politician lost their election? The “deep state” rigged the election.

- There is incontrovertible proof that your favorite politician was involved in a scandal? The “deep state” doctored the footage."


There is no such thing is a "Deep State"
When I unfortunately run into believers of this CT I usually ask them one question. 'Who is the leader of the deep state and why is he/she not identified?" That causes their heads to explode.
Hans is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2019, 10:43 AM   #34
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 12,500
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Not even in Turkey?
* checks title of thread *

"Is Trump Trying to Set Up an "Alternative DeepState"?"

nuff said!
__________________
“Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore - if they're white!"
If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list.
This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2019, 04:16 PM   #35
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 11,886
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
* checks title of thread *

"Is Trump Trying to Set Up an "Alternative DeepState"?"

nuff said!
Ha.

I guess I just take issue with your definition of the deep state. Different people use the phrase to mean different things.

There's the over the top CT version you refer to, the phrase as it's used pertaining to Turkey, and this more "mainstream" use:
https://billmoyers.com/2014/02/21/an...he-deep-state/

And also:
https://theintercept.com/2015/11/02/...ls-chessboard/

Those last two links are people basically using the phrase to refer to the "intelligence community + the national security apparatus + the foreign policy establishment."
Also described here:
http://www.pce.at/PDF/US-Schattenregierung.pdf
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.

Last edited by kellyb; 13th October 2019 at 04:18 PM.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2019, 06:07 PM   #36
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 12,500
Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Ha.

I guess I just take issue with your definition of the deep state. Different people use the phrase to mean different things.

There's the over the top CT version you refer to, the phrase as it's used pertaining to Turkey, and this more "mainstream" use:
https://billmoyers.com/2014/02/21/an...he-deep-state/

And also:
https://theintercept.com/2015/11/02/...ls-chessboard/

Those last two links are people basically using the phrase to refer to the "intelligence community + the national security apparatus + the foreign policy establishment."
Also described here:
http://www.pce.at/PDF/US-Schattenregierung.pdf

To be fair, the deep state (note the lack of capitalization) to which you are referring does exist; its the one that keeps the US Government running, along with its domestic and foreign policy. Its just is NOT the one being talked about here.

Seems to me that we are all talking about the crackpot conspiracy theory that there is a sooper seekrit cabal of operators in the inner workings of the US Government whose AIM is to subvert the will of the people (and in so doing, by definition, subvert the intent of the constitution and its framers). THIS Deep State does not exist; it is a figment of the crazy imaginations of conspiraloons.
__________________
“Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore - if they're white!"
If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list.
This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2019, 06:21 PM   #37
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 11,886
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
To be fair, the deep state (note the lack of capitalization) to which you are referring does exist; its the one that keeps the US Government running, along with its domestic and foreign policy. Its just is NOT the one being talked about here.
I think that sort of IS what theprestige was referring to, sorta. And mumblethrax when he/she said

Quote:
"The actions, and the identity of the actors might be secret, but the agenda is not. I mean, they write letters to the New York Times about it."
Kind of the whole "steady state" thing.

Quote:
Seems to me that we are all talking about the crackpot conspiracy theory that there is a sooper seekrit cabal of operators in the inner workings of the US Government whose AIM is to subvert the will of the people (and in so doing, by definition, subvert the intent of the constitution and its framers). THIS Deep State does not exist; it is a figment of the crazy imaginations of conspiraloons.
I don't think anyone's talking about that version in this thread.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2019, 06:39 PM   #38
gigmaster
Scholar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Chatsworth, Ga. USA
Posts: 74
You sound like one of those anti-Trump nutcases. The Democratic leadership has already been caught several times lying and attempting to manipulate, and outright circumvent the Constitution. This is not in question. The only question is what will be done about it, and we won't know until after the 2020 elections.

Originally Posted by Hans View Post
When I unfortunately run into believers of this CT I usually ask them one question. 'Who is the leader of the deep state and why is he/she not identified?" That causes their heads to explode.
gigmaster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2019, 06:50 PM   #39
kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
 
kellyb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 11,886
Originally Posted by gigmaster View Post
You sound like one of those anti-Trump nutcases. The Democratic leadership has already been caught several times lying and attempting to manipulate, and outright circumvent the Constitution. This is not in question. The only question is what will be done about it, and we won't know until after the 2020 elections.
What do you think they've done to "circumvent the Constitution"?
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts ~ Bertrand Russell
I am proud to say that Henry Kissinger is not my friend.
kellyb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2019, 10:23 PM   #40
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 12,500
Originally Posted by gigmaster View Post
The Democratic leadership has already been caught several times lying
Evidence?

Originally Posted by gigmaster View Post
and attempting to manipulate
Evidence?

Originally Posted by gigmaster View Post
and outright circumvent the Constitution.
Evidence?

Originally Posted by gigmaster View Post
This is not in question
Yes it is - I am questioning your unsupported assertion.
__________________
“Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore - if they're white!"
If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list.
This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:53 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.