ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Clinton controversies , corruption charges , hillary clinton , Obama administration , Russia conspiracies

Reply
Old 29th October 2017, 12:56 PM   #81
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 63,317
I would bother explaining those points to you sunmaster if I thought you were actually interested in a discussion.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2017, 01:00 PM   #82
sunmaster14
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 10,017
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I would bother explaining those points to you sunmaster if I thought you were actually interested in a discussion.
How about if I promised to read your explanations but not respond to them? You should at least do it for everybody else because at least right now, I probably look like I've won the argument.
sunmaster14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2017, 01:01 PM   #83
Cobalt
Tobikan Judan
 
Cobalt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,685
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I would bother explaining those points to you sunmaster if I thought you were actually interested in a discussion.
Crazy idea, but what about doing it for the other people reading the thread?
__________________
oh he got the mango sentinel
Cobalt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2017, 02:48 PM   #84
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 17,049
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
The problem with this whole dossier thing is that the media summary of it is, "Donald Trump had kinky sex with Russian hookers.....and there's some other stuff, too. Well, that's what some people say anyway."
Originally Posted by Jim_MDP View Post
First... i don't know what dodgy blogs you include as "media" but on the big outfits, that statement is bollocks. To a one, they're generally saying... ignore the salacious aspect, it's too "out there" without some corroborating evidence.

For the rest... you should skim the Slate article linked just above your post.
Sipher explains the role a source like Steele plays in producing a report... it's data to be evaluated on the strength of the source (and sub-sources, where identified) and then evaluated and verified or debunked. The dossier is not, and was not intended to be, a "summary of findings" or somesuch.
Steele appears very credible, his company appears very credible, his purported access to these type of sources is very credible (jeez... read his CV).

Now... I have yet t read and/or evaluate the claims in the dozen or so individual chronological "reports" of the dossier... but to date, according to serious people, not foaming at the mouth, it's not "garbage", nor has it been debunked in any significant way.
I can't help but notice that when it comes to the content of the dossiet, the only thing you actually took note of was "the salacious aspects", and noted that the other stuff is credible.

I suppose I'll go on and click the Slate article, but you've reinforced my view of what people are saying about the dossier.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2017, 02:50 PM   #85
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 10,939
How's the situation over there in USA land? Is the general public being distracted by the desperate attempts by Trump and his puppies (but-but-but Clinton), or have they finally learned to recognize BS when they see it?
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2017, 02:51 PM   #86
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 63,317
Originally Posted by Cobalt View Post
Crazy idea, but what about doing it for the other people reading the thread?
Post them, preferably after reading them and agreeing they need answering rather than just cutting and pasting that post (ie if you have a sincere question).
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2017, 03:00 PM   #87
BobTheCoward
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 9,732
Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
It's over my friend. The tables have been turned. The Democrats' master plan of butthurt has blown up spectacularly in their faces. You just don't realize it yet because you refuse to leave your own comfortable little bubble of left wing news.
I am going to bet like every other Clinton scandal, it is going to turn out they engaged in appropriate base covering. Just like the server.
BobTheCoward is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2017, 03:04 PM   #88
Jim_MDP
Philosopher
 
Jim_MDP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: N.Cal/S.Or
Posts: 6,013
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I can't help but notice that when it comes to the content of the dossiet, the only thing you actually took note of was "the salacious aspects", and noted that the other stuff is credible.

I suppose I'll go on and click the Slate article, but you've reinforced my view of what people are saying about the dossier.

This reply makes no sense to me whatsoever.
__________________
----------------------
Anything goes in the Goblin hut... anything.

"Suggesting spurious explanations isn't relevant to my work." -- WTC Dust.
"Both cannot be simultaneously true, and so one may conclude neither is true, and if neither is true, then Apollo is fraudulent." -- Patrick1000.
Jim_MDP is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2017, 06:18 PM   #89
logger
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,505
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
How's the situation over there in USA land? Is the general public being distracted by the desperate attempts by Trump and his puppies (but-but-but Clinton), or have they finally learned to recognize BS when they see it?
No itís happening just the way it usually does. If the Dems accuse the Republicans of wrong doing, the Dems have usually already done it and worse.
logger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2017, 06:20 PM   #90
logger
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 8,505
Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
How about if I promised to read your explanations but not respond to them? You should at least do it for everybody else because at least right now, I probably look like I've won the argument.
Yes and it was fun to read.
logger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2017, 07:00 PM   #91
sunmaster14
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 10,017
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I am going to bet like every other Clinton scandal, it is going to turn out they engaged in appropriate base covering.
Well, I don't think funding opposition research and then passing it on to the FBI through cut-outs is illegal. It might have crossed the line into illegality, but that wasn't my point. My point is that the Clinton campaign was likely colluding with foreigners and foreign governments to a much larger extent than the average, and the Trump campaign was colluding less than the average (probably no collusion at all, although they were clearly receptive to receiving dirt on Clinton from foreigners). Part of the Clintonian collusion actually resulted in false allegations against the Trump campaign and a bogus investigation which has now lasted over a year, and that was the Clinton campaign's intent. The truth is now coming out though, and the Democrats are going to be very sad. I guess heartbreak for the Democrats comes around this time every year.

Quote:
Just like the server.
Well, the reason Hillary survived the server scandal was because she was practically anointed the Democratic nominee by the time the scandal broke. Even then, however, she almost lost the nomination to a 73 year old socialist who hadn't even been a Democrat until he decided to run. Obama and Loretta Lynch made it clear to Comey what the result of the investigation should be, and Comey was careful to sabotage the investigation from the very beginning (by, e.g., never even empaneling a grand jury). Comey's subsequent behavior was probably a belated attempt to assuage the FBI soldiers who were incensed that Hillary was getting away with a serious crime.

Last edited by sunmaster14; 29th October 2017 at 07:02 PM.
sunmaster14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2017, 07:09 PM   #92
BobTheCoward
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 9,732
Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post

Well, the reason Hillary survived the server scandal was because she was practically anointed the Democratic nominee by the time the scandal broke. Even then, however, she almost lost the nomination to a 73 year old socialist who hadn't even been a Democrat until he decided to run. Obama and Loretta Lynch made it clear to Comey what the result of the investigation should be, and Comey was careful to sabotage the investigation from the very beginning (by, e.g., never even empaneling a grand jury). Comey's subsequent behavior was probably a belated attempt to assuage the FBI soldiers who were incensed that Hillary was getting away with a serious crime.
Come on. After surviving 30 years of scandal without a conviction can you just admit they are getting by on more than luck?
BobTheCoward is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2017, 07:26 PM   #93
TellyKNeasuss
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,889
Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
My point is that the Clinton campaign was likely colluding with foreigners and foreign governments to a much larger extent than the average, and the Trump campaign was colluding less than the average (probably no collusion at all, although they were clearly receptive to receiving dirt on Clinton from foreigners).
I assume that this conclusion is based on the numerous lied-about meetings between Clinton campaign managers and advisers and Russian officials and agents and the complete lack of meetings between Trump campaign managers and advisers and Russian officials and agents.

Quote:
Part of the Clintonian collusion actually resulted in false allegations against the Trump campaign and a bogus investigation which has now lasted over a year,
The "bogus investigation" is going to result in at least 1 criminal indictment. Of course, the stolen Clinton and DNC emails that found their way to Wikileaks would have been sufficient on their own to lead to an investigation. And then there was the other evidence of Russian meddling.

Quote:
and that was the Clinton campaign's intent.
Because the Clinton campaign knew they were going to lose, so they kept Steele's information until after the election rather than using it during the campaign?
__________________
"Facts are stupid things."
Ronald Reagan


TellyKNeasuss is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2017, 07:28 PM   #94
sunmaster14
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 10,017
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Come on. After surviving 30 years of scandal without a conviction can you just admit they are getting by on more than luck?
I didn't say it was luck. It's the utterly shameless and ruthless spending of their political capital (built up by Bill through amazing determination and skill) that has kept them out of jail. Of course, they've left a trail of personal and political destruction in their wake, but, hey, nothing in this world is free.
sunmaster14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2017, 07:38 PM   #95
sunmaster14
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 10,017
Originally Posted by TellyKNeasuss View Post
I assume that this conclusion is based on the numerous lied-about meetings between Clinton campaign managers and advisers and Russian officials and agents and the complete lack of meetings between Trump campaign managers and advisers and Russian officials and agents.



The "bogus investigation" is going to result in at least 1 criminal indictment. Of course, the stolen Clinton and DNC emails that found their way to Wikileaks would have been sufficient on their own to lead to an investigation. And then there was the other evidence of Russian meddling.



Because the Clinton campaign knew they were going to lose, so they kept Steele's information until after the election rather than using it during the campaign?
Yawn. Why do you people make me repeat points that I've already made? Hillary's campaign would have used the dossier if they thought they needed it. It was a high risk move to use it, however. Something like that could have easily backfired, just like the forged Texas Air National Guard memos backfired on John Kerry in 2004.

Actually, there are indications that the campaign did try to get news media to bite on the dossier after Comey reopened the Hillary email investigation (hence the Mother Jones article on October 31 - this was just a few days after Comey's announcement), but nobody important was willing to run with it. Before Comey's curveball, Hillary thought she had the election in the bag, so why would she try to peddle a bogus dossier publicly?

Of course, the dossier was passed on to the FBI much earlier (parts of it as early as July 2016 apparently). I guess the idea there was getting the FBI to leak that there was a counterintelligence investigation against Trump.

Then of course after the election, Hillary and her posse plotted within 24 hours of their loss to use the dossier to try to undermine Trump's presidency. This is documented in the NY Times #1 bestseller Shattered: Inside Hillary Clinton's Doomed Campaign. Motive? Probably equal parts spite and unrealistic ambition.
sunmaster14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th October 2017, 07:46 PM   #96
BobTheCoward
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 9,732
Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
I didn't say it was luck. It's the utterly shameless and ruthless spending of their political capital (built up by Bill through amazing determination and skill) that has kept them out of jail. Of course, they've left a trail of personal and political destruction in their wake, but, hey, nothing in this world is free.
Which is why the server results are not surprising and them getting away again shouldn't be surprising.
BobTheCoward is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:04 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.