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16th November 2012, 10:10 AM | #241 |
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16th November 2012, 11:10 AM | #242 |
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Why the eff would they be referencing classical philosophers or "philosophy of that historic sort"? You realize that Philosophy of Science is an active discipline, yes?
http://philpapers.org/browse/science...nd-mathematics |
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16th November 2012, 11:42 AM | #243 |
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OK, if you want to confine it to current day philosophers, then - how many current day "philosophers" do you think figure as key references in any mainstream science papers? Your link appears to be about philosophy publications, not about any mainstream cutting edge science of the sort we are talking about on forums like this. |
16th November 2012, 11:53 AM | #244 |
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"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good." - Thomas Paine "We are convinced that liberty without socialism is privilege, injustice; and that socialism without liberty is slavery and brutality." - Mikhail Bakunin |
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16th November 2012, 12:10 PM | #245 |
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Well then what on earth are you talking about! The point is - scientific research is ALWAYS reported in the scientific research literature. But you will not find that any of that research ever has to reference work by any philosophers ... because philosophy of that sort plays no part in any of the reported science. IOW - philosophy of the sort you are talking about, is utterly irrelevant to serious science research. |
16th November 2012, 12:33 PM | #246 |
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To "serious science"? What's that?
Philosophy works in a different manner than science and challenges the very basic assumptions we use to obtain knowledge. Science then applies these methods to get that knowledge:
Originally Posted by Bertrand Russell
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"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good." - Thomas Paine "We are convinced that liberty without socialism is privilege, injustice; and that socialism without liberty is slavery and brutality." - Mikhail Bakunin |
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16th November 2012, 12:49 PM | #247 |
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This is a straightforward example of the True Scotsman fallacy: hand-waving away anybody who has read the Bible and still agrees with it as not "rational" or in "denial."
It's just as fallacious as when believers argue that anyone who reads the Bible will convert, and then dismiss any counter-examples by saying they didn't read it "with an open heart" or "truly try to understand it." |
16th November 2012, 12:54 PM | #248 |
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Yes it is. But I missed the Scripture where any form of capital punishment, let alone stoning, is listed as a punishment for wearing mixed garments.
It seems unlikely that someone would base their falling away from the Bible on the existence of a particular passage that they can't even find a reference to. |
16th November 2012, 01:16 PM | #249 |
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16th November 2012, 01:17 PM | #250 |
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How did Avalon determine that "Obey God" is a universal good? And, where is this God that we are all supposed to obey?
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16th November 2012, 01:36 PM | #251 |
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16th November 2012, 02:17 PM | #252 |
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16th November 2012, 02:24 PM | #253 |
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There are no absolutes, except for the all or totality, itself... whatever that is, or isn't, to you.
Short of a consistently-working theory of everything, there is no way to determine what truly is right, or wrong; etc. But, wrongness does exist, and every bit much as rightness. (Only an outside god could imagine, and even contemplate, what doesn't exist.) Ie, the two must balance out. What to do when things are perhaps, so-bleak? Don't begrudge the universe its infinity of dimensions, etc. Give up on trying to outsmart it, or trying to look after it. Try to save yourself. God is as god does. |
16th November 2012, 02:28 PM | #254 | |||
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16th November 2012, 05:23 PM | #255 |
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17th November 2012, 03:13 AM | #256 |
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I don’t think there is anything left to argue about. The plain fact of the matter is that science papers do not normally reference the work of classical philosophers. Because that sort of philosophy does not play any direct part in the reported science. If you read Stephen Hawking's papers on cosmological physics you won’t find constant reference to papers from people like Jung or Wittgenstein. Because fundamental science does not rely in any direct way on philosophy and philosophers of that sort. |
17th November 2012, 06:26 AM | #257 |
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Sorry, my fine troll, but you haven't supported your case at all. The need for a higher authority to be moral is simply the way religions justify their existence. Like everything else in religion that's just a construct of the human mind. If you can't be moral without fear of punishment then you shouldn't be classified as a human being.
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17th November 2012, 08:14 AM | #258 |
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Again, in practice, this simply isn't true. Scientists don't sit around waiting for philosophers to tell them that the way they gain knowledge is correct. The finer philosophical points of knowledge are simply not important to scientists.
You could theoretically make an argument for any discipline that it needs philosophy to justify its existence, but in fact philosophy is the only one demanding that justification in the first place. "How do we know what we know?" may require a philosophical answer but is also a philosophical question. Other disciplines may not have an answer, but typically they're also not asking the question. They've made their presuppositions about knowledge and reason and they stick to them. Relevant comic: |
17th November 2012, 01:38 PM | #259 |
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I haven't read through all seven pages here, but if I discussed the matter with a fundamentalist Baptist I'd probably point out that Satan is also "a higher power" in that he also possesses supernatural abilities. Choosing to follow one higher power in preference to another higher power is really no different than choosing to "do good" rather than "do evil". The judgement about what is good and what is not still depends on one's internal moral compass. It isn't the higher power which guides our choices, it's our own reason-tempered emotions.
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17th November 2012, 04:51 PM | #260 |
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17th November 2012, 05:08 PM | #261 |
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17th November 2012, 05:20 PM | #262 |
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17th November 2012, 06:54 PM | #263 |
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If he's gonna beat up on the ass that he withdrew from the pit, yes.
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18th November 2012, 12:03 AM | #264 |
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What I still miss is how objective morality can be tested at all.
AvalonXQ, you assert that 'obey (your) god' is objectively good. How can that be tested? Because if its an objective law of nature, rather than the subjective human constuct I assume it to be, it should be possible to test. |
19th November 2012, 06:33 AM | #265 |
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Well, the concept of relativity was around a couple of mellennia before Einstein. (And he might've pilfered a version of it from one of his "girl friends".)
Second, that's too bad. Maybe, if a lot more of the scientists, and others for that matter, tried to live what they believe and know, we'd be a lot further ahead with all of this. Eg, Hawking did refer to the "beginning of time", a point (literally, or not,) at which the laws of physics would (, in his estimation,) break down. Ie, a place spoken of in other terms, such as philosophy. So maybe, let's bring the philosophy into the rest, to bring the physics there? |
19th November 2012, 07:47 AM | #266 |
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Wait, so you want to bring philosophical wankery back into the mix to fill in the gaps in science's present understanding?
It doesn't work that way. When cosmologists say "it's not possible with present data to extrapolate conditions prior to this point," you can't just say. "Well, some guys have been imagining what things might be like when the laws of physics don't apply, so let's use their baseless speculations and evidence-free assertions in place of real science." No, when science says "we don't know," that's not an invitation to fill in the answers by others means. |
19th November 2012, 08:01 AM | #267 |
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Well, was it right to exterminate the Canaanites and other tribes living in the area promised to Moses? If an Israeli invader came to a late term pregnant Canaanite woman would it have been right to kill her and her baby? As the good Lord clearly ordered: "Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes."
One would be inclined to say that genocide is always wrong, but I think there are plenty of Christians who think it's ok if ordered by this ever so loving God... |
19th November 2012, 10:21 AM | #268 |
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If you think Einstein plagiarised someone else’s earlier work, then you should write to all the main physics journals and tell them. See if any of them agree with you. Re. Hawking and the beginning of time - what I think Hawking is probably talking about is simply that what we call "time" is a property of "space". So that if our universe began as the inflationary stage of a Big Bang process which converted the null vacuum energy into "space", then at that point, what we now call “time” also begins to appear ... it's a property of the emerging "space". |
19th November 2012, 12:13 PM | #269 |
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Huh? That's pretty much exactly what religion is. You say, "It doesn't work that way," yet you believe in invisible supernatural beings? That is definitively "some guys [...] imagining what things [are] like when the laws of physics don't apply." You do agree, don't you, that belief in gods requires dishonesty, hypocrisy, and willful ignorance of objective reality? |
19th November 2012, 12:58 PM | #270 |
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19th November 2012, 02:10 PM | #271 |
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19th November 2012, 03:07 PM | #272 |
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The "concept" had been, and by primarily an ancient philosopher. Besides, i'm sure that most of them, the journal sorts, already know this.
I, myself, wouldn't presume to "think what Hawking is probably talking about". Anyway, time certainly isn't a consequence, or property, of what did, or didn't, happen to space. (Haven't heard that before.) |
19th November 2012, 03:10 PM | #273 |
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I wonder if Isaac thought Dad was doing right or wrong?
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19th November 2012, 03:16 PM | #274 |
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Maybe, along the same reasoning, philosophy was "finding out too many things, or something".
Seriously, though, eg, even the plus, and minus, signs must come from somewhere and sometime. And each of math, and morality, make use of those, albeit in superficially-different own ways. |
19th November 2012, 03:27 PM | #275 |
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So if the German society of 1943 determines that it is in their best interest to exterminate the Jews, and to destroy the Soviet Union killing millions of people, then they can claim it is right to do so?
All of this is related to the so-called "Moral Argument" for the existence of God. |
19th November 2012, 03:27 PM | #276 |
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You've probably heard the term "spacetime" or "space/time" though, right? It's one thing - space AND time. Bending space (with mass, say) also affects time spent in that space, compared to an outside reference. Clocks tick slower. Particles live longer. That's what current physics says exists, extrapolating from that Relativity thing you think Einstein stole.
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19th November 2012, 03:34 PM | #277 |
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19th November 2012, 03:55 PM | #278 |
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Well as far as Christians go, Jesus (whom Christians believe is part of the Godhead and God in the flesh) is not an imaginary being, if we are to believe skeptic Bart Ehrman who said "Jesus certainly existed" in his latest book. So at least according to Christians' beliefs, it can be argued that morality does not come from an imaginary being.
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19th November 2012, 03:58 PM | #279 |
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Deliberate dishonesty seems to come from some Christians. Can you post the part where Bart Ehrman said "Jesus was certainly divine"? If Bart Ehrman didn't believe Jesus was divine, how is it that you came to believe that morals came from a mortal itinerant preacher?
No answer for the part about a god murdering millions in a global flood being moral or not? |
19th November 2012, 04:10 PM | #280 |
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