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Old 12th December 2012, 06:01 PM   #641
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Strawman, I never said a mortal person existing is evidence that a God exists having the same name.

Sure, you did. You said evidence of the existence of Jesus was evidence of the existence of god.

Or did you mean that to be an immortal, son-of-god, is-god Jesus? If so, that would have made your statement pointless and silly. Did you mean that?
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Old 12th December 2012, 06:21 PM   #642
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Strawman, I never said a mortal person existing is evidence that a God exists having the same name.
Then you don't believe that the mortal itinerant preacher that Bart Ehrman said existed was divine? Are you stating that for the record?

Quote:
Which post? I believe I just said Bart Ehrman said Jesus "certainly existed" in his latest book.
Then you don't believe that Jesus was divine. Why do you believe morals come from that person?
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Old 12th December 2012, 06:25 PM   #643
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Not if those innocent children go to an eternal heaven upon death.
Children simply dying horrible deaths and not going to heaven since it doesn't exist would be evidence that no god(s) exist then?
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Old 13th December 2012, 12:12 PM   #644
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
No, to your Strawman argument. I was talking about the historical evidence of an empty tomb. An empty tomb is some evidence of a reported Resurrection. It is not proof, but it is some evidence. Bottom line is in 2000 years of looking no one has found the body of the famous person (Jesus) that Bart Ehrman said "certainly existed".
What empty tomb? Where is it?
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Old 14th December 2012, 03:33 AM   #645
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DOC

Quote:
That is evidence of a claimed resurrection and thus divinity.
Lazarus of Bethany is divine?

Quote:
I just said Bart Ehrman said Jesus "certainly existed" in his latest book.
If so, then Bart Ehrman erred. It is only too obviously a matter of uncertain contingency.

Here's a specific example of him saying it:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bart-d...b_1349544.html

He treats it as an uncertain contingency. That his tag line says otherwise is an example of brave talk, and not any kind of factual finding at all.
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Old 14th December 2012, 04:59 AM   #646
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Not if those innocent children go to an eternal heaven upon death.

Many of them suffer horribly before death. Do you approve?
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Old 14th December 2012, 03:42 PM   #647
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
What empty tomb? Where is it?
Many, including Dan Behat, former archaeologist of Jerusalem, believe the best evidence is that it is most probably directly under the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem. For a picture go to the below link and scroll down a little over half way to where it says "1st century tomb."

http://www.treasury-tours.com/Israel-Tours.html

Also you have much historical evidence that the person Bart Ehrman said certainly existed was crucified and his tomb was empty shortly thereafter.

Last edited by DOC; 14th December 2012 at 03:53 PM.
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Old 14th December 2012, 04:07 PM   #648
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Many, including Dan Behat, former archaeologist of Jerusalem, believe the best evidence is that it is most probably directly under the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem.
Except that it isn't, and there is no evidence for it being a place where your fellow christians cannot agree among themselves as to the removal of the holy step ladder.
ETA: Forgot the sarcasm smiley there.

That is but one step away from the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch.

Originally Posted by DOC View Post
For a picture go to the below link and scroll down a little over half way to where it says "1st century tomb."

http://www.treasury-tours.com/Israel-Tours.html
Of course a tour company must have no interest in promoting themselves to the punters, right?

Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Also you have much historical evidence that the person Bart Ehrman said certainly existed was crucified and his tomb was empty shortly thereafter.
BE did not state that. And who really cares which individuals robbed the grave of an itinerant, unemployed chippy two thousand years ago?
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Old 14th December 2012, 04:10 PM   #649
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Many, including Dan Behat, former archaeologist of Jerusalem, believe the best evidence is that it is most probably directly under the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem. For a picture go to the below link and scroll down a little over half way to where it says "1st century tomb."

http://www.treasury-tours.com/Israel-Tours.html
There's enough room there for Wilbur and his whole family of weasels.

Quote:
First-Century Tomb

The best piece of evidence that the tomb of Jesus was in this area is the fact that other first-century tombs are still preserved inside the church. Called the "Tomb of Joseph of Arimathea," these burial shafts (kokhim) are clearly from the time of Christ's death and thus attest to some kind of burial ground in the area. Combined with the evidence from tradition, this church is most likely the true location of the Christ's death and burial.
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Also you have much historical evidence that the person Bart Ehrman said certainly existed was crucified and his tomb was empty shortly thereafter.
No, no, we don't, unless you'd care to finally produce some.
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Old 14th December 2012, 04:19 PM   #650
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Hmm. I wonder how many tombs and other burial sites have been uncovered that did have bodies in them.
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Old 14th December 2012, 04:27 PM   #651
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Originally Posted by jsfisher View Post
Hmm. I wonder how many tombs and other burial sites have been uncovered that did have bodies in them.
Or didn't.
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Old 14th December 2012, 04:32 PM   #652
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
BE did not state that. And who really cares which individuals robbed the grave of an itinerant, unemployed chippy two thousand years ago?
Bart Ehrman said Jesus "certainly existed" in his latest book. He also said there are solid reasons to believe Judas betrayed Christ.
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Old 14th December 2012, 04:36 PM   #653
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Bart Ehrman said Jesus "certainly existed" in his latest book. He also said there are solid reasons to believe Judas betrayed Christ.
But no reason to believe that Jesus was a divine being who could work miracles.
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Old 14th December 2012, 04:37 PM   #654
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Many, including Dan Behat, former archaeologist of Jerusalem, believe the best evidence is that it is most probably directly under the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem. For a picture go to the below link and scroll down a little over half way to where it says "1st century tomb."

http://www.treasury-tours.com/Israel-Tours.html

Also you have much historical evidence that the person Bart Ehrman said certainly existed was crucified and his tomb was empty shortly thereafter.
I was speaking from memory above, actually this is what Dan Behat said:

We may not be absolutely certain that the site of the Holy Sepulchre Church is the site of
Jesus' burial, but we have no other site that can lay a claim nearly as weighty, and we really have no reason to reject the authenticity of the site.”

http://senathchurchofchrist.org/wp-c...-of-Jesus1.pdf
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Old 14th December 2012, 04:47 PM   #655
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Bart Ehrman said Jesus "certainly existed" in his latest book. He also said there are solid reasons to believe Judas betrayed Christ.
The one you admit you didn't read in toto?

Did you respond to the only bit of my post you thought you could address purposely? Surely a lie by your shoddy chippy's rulz? Just like a modern day chippy, fails to turn up when he said he would? No?


What of the holy stepladder? No comments there? No?

What of the location made up of whole cloth? No comments there either? City walls ring any bells? Outside or inside city walls ring any bells? No?
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Old 14th December 2012, 04:48 PM   #656
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
I was speaking from memory above, actually this is what Dan Behat said:

We may not be absolutely certain that the site of the Holy Sepulchre Church is the site of
Jesus' burial, but we have no other site that can lay a claim nearly as weighty, and we really have no reason to reject the authenticity of the site.”

http://senathchurchofchrist.org/wp-c...-of-Jesus1.pdf
If it is the grave of Jesus then his body will still be there. Time for an exhumation?

Last edited by dafydd; 14th December 2012 at 04:49 PM.
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Old 14th December 2012, 04:55 PM   #657
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
I was speaking from memory above, actually this is what Dan Behat said:
You lied by misquoting him, how christian of you.

Originally Posted by DOC View Post
We may not be absolutely certain that the site of the Holy Sepulchre Church is the site of
Jesus' burial,
He is saying "We have no clue"...

Originally Posted by DOC View Post
but we have no other site that can lay a claim nearly as weighty, and we really have no reason to reject the authenticity of the site.”
...but let's just make it up anyway.

Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Oh goody. A dead link.
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Old 14th December 2012, 07:00 PM   #658
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Bart Ehrman said Jesus "certainly existed" in his latest book. He also said there are solid reasons to believe Judas betrayed Christ.
Why would he know?
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Old 14th December 2012, 07:03 PM   #659
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Why would he know?
''Jesus loves me, yes I know
Because the bible tells me so....''
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Old 14th December 2012, 07:21 PM   #660
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Oh now it works.

Lets just start with para. 1
Quote:
The Church of the Holy Sepulchre was built in 326 AD by the Emperor Constantine on a site
that is believed to encompass Golgotha, or Calvary, where Jesus was crucified, and the tomb
(sepulchre) where he was buried.
"believed to encompass"? By whom?
Quote:
This church has been an important pilgrimage destination
since the 4th century.
And so what if some gullible bleevers waste time and effort to go there?
Move on to para. 2
Quote:
A chapel is built around what is believed to be the “Rock of Calvary” on which Christ was
crucified.
Believed by who? Who measured this?

And on and on it goes with unsupported speculation using weasel words like "believed by many" or "considered by many" and such like malarkey. It is just not worth the effort to debunk such drivel.
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Old 15th December 2012, 01:32 PM   #661
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
I was speaking from memory above, actually this is what Dan Behat said:

We may not be absolutely certain that the site of the Holy Sepulchre Church is the site of
Jesus' burial, but we have no other site that can lay a claim nearly as weighty, and we really have no reason to reject the authenticity of the site.”

http://senathchurchofchrist.org/wp-c...-of-Jesus1.pdf
Wilbur!
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Old 16th December 2012, 05:00 AM   #662
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
I was speaking from memory above, actually this is what Dan Behat said:

We may not be absolutely certain that the site of the Holy Sepulchre Church is the site of
Jesus' burial, but we have no other site that can lay a claim nearly as weighty, and we really have no reason to reject the authenticity of the site.”

http://senathchurchofchrist.org/wp-c...-of-Jesus1.pdf
Authenticity of a fictional person's burial site proved beyond doubt.

Ah, it must be Sunday morning at JREF.
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Old 16th December 2012, 07:17 AM   #663
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Also you have much historical evidence that the person Bart Ehrman said certainly existed was crucified and his tomb was empty shortly thereafter.
And yet you've denied equating that person with a divine being. Why do you keep bringing him up? If you agree with Bart Ehrman that an itinerant preacher named Jesus existed who was mortal, why do you believe that morals came from that person? Where did morals come from before 2000 years ago?
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Old 16th December 2012, 07:46 AM   #664
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
You lied by misquoting him...
You make a statement of fact with no proof, I thought skeptics didn't like to do that.

It seems some Skeptics always want proof this, and proof that, unless they want to attack someone, then they don't need proof.

Without proof, one should apologize for such a statement. But I guess you just have a feeling it's true, so you made the statement of fact based on that feeling.

And for the record I am the one who brought in his exact wording, even though no one asked for it.

Below is another example of you making a statement of fact with no proof:

Quote:
And who really cares which individuals robbed the grave of an itinerant, unemployed chippy two thousand years ago?

Last edited by DOC; 16th December 2012 at 07:54 AM.
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Old 16th December 2012, 08:39 AM   #665
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Oh now it works.

Lets just start with para. 1
"believed to encompass"? By whom?
And so what if some gullible bleevers waste time and effort to go there?
Move on to para. 2
Believed by who? Who measured this?

And on and on it goes with unsupported speculation using weasel words like "believed by many" or "considered by many" and such like malarkey. It is just not worth the effort to debunk such drivel.
I recall that we saw the same thing when DOC was claiming that the disciples were martyred.

"According to tradition" was the phrase back then...
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Old 16th December 2012, 10:57 AM   #666
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post

Below is another example of you making a statement of fact with no proof:
In the absence of any proof of the divinity of Jesus or anyone else who has ever been alleged to live it seems fair to assume that it is a fact.
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Old 17th December 2012, 02:58 AM   #667
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
You make a statement of fact with no proof, I thought skeptics didn't like to do that.
They don't. Do you really want me to dredge up the various statements you have made? I have no wish to embarrass you, but I you wish, I would be happy to do so.

Originally Posted by DOC View Post
It seems some Skeptics always want proof this, and proof that, unless they want to attack someone, then they don't need proof.
Proof you have consistently failed to provide, since you have none, and no ad hom, just pointing out an argument without substance.

Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Without proof, one should apologize for such a statement.
Apologise for what? Pointing out the flaws in your argument? I think not.
Originally Posted by DOC View Post
But I guess you just have a feeling it's true, so you made the statement of fact based on that feeling.
You have demonstrated it to be true. I have no axe to grind, but if you want to go down this road, I am content to dredge up the nonsense you have posted before.

Originally Posted by DOC View Post
And for the record I am the one who brought in his exact wording, even though no one asked for it.
No one asked for it by your own admission, so take it away.

Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Below is another example of you making a statement of fact with no proof:
That was a question, not a statement.
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Old 17th December 2012, 03:13 AM   #668
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Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
I recall that we saw the same thing when DOC was claiming that the disciples were martyred.

"According to tradition" was the phrase back then...
"According to tradition" you better not shout.

"According to tradition" you better watch out.

"According to tradition" some loon in a red suit is hitting the town and boy is he peeved.

"According to tradition" if you are a crook then you will receive some coal under a tree you arbitrarily placed in your living room.

"According to tradition" if you obey the "rulz" (insert locale of choice) then random gifts will appear under said arbitrary tree in your living room on a particular date.

"According to tradition" said gifts will be delivered by an unlikely method.

Wait a minute. With a little editing, I may be able to demonstrate that jebus is Santa.

New world religion, yay.
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Old 17th December 2012, 06:13 AM   #669
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
...Do you really want me to dredge up the various statements you have made? I have no wish to embarrass you, but I you wish, I would be happy to do so.
I call these kind of statements "invisible ad homs". Bottom line is there is no proof I ever lied about anything. You should apologize for making such a statement with no proof.

Last edited by DOC; 17th December 2012 at 06:30 AM.
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Old 17th December 2012, 06:19 AM   #670
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Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
I recall that we saw the same thing when DOC was claiming that the disciples were martyred.

"According to tradition" was the phrase back then...
Oral tradition was very important back then in that era of little literacy and no newspapers, or even paper. Maybe that is why Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan said:

"In many respects, the Oral Torah is more important than the Written Torah".

http://www.aish.com/jl/48943186.html

Last edited by DOC; 17th December 2012 at 06:26 AM.
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Old 17th December 2012, 06:39 AM   #671
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Originally Posted by mutile View Post
I don't think you care about what Bart Ehrman says.
Unless it can be distorted to suit DOC's agenda of course. He's ignored most of what Ehrman has ever said and selected one point on Ehrman's arguments have been shredded,.

Originally Posted by DOC View Post
No, to your Strawman argument. I was talking about the historical evidence of an empty tomb. An empty tomb is some evidence of a reported Resurrection. It is not proof, but it is some evidence. Bottom line is in 2000 years of looking no one has found the body of the famous person (Jesus) that Bart Ehrman said "certainly existed".
1. Stop using terms like "strawman" until you understand what they mean.
2. "An empty tomb is some evidence of a reported Resurrection": no it isn't.
3. If you accept Ehrman's opinion on Jesus, why do you reject his opinion on the putative Jesus' divinity?
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Old 17th December 2012, 06:56 AM   #672
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Many, including Dan Behat, former archaeologist of Jerusalem, believe the best evidence is that it is most probably directly under the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem.
Bahat, at least try and get his name right.
And on what evidence does he base his opinion?

Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Bart Ehrman said Jesus "certainly existed" in his latest book. He also said there are solid reasons to believe Judas betrayed Christ.
And that Jesus wasn't divine, you ignore that bit because it contradicts your fantasy.

Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
The one you admit you didn't read in toto?
And lied and evaded about not reading.

Originally Posted by DOC View Post
I call these kind of statements "invisible ad homs". Bottom line is there is no proof I ever lied about anything. You should apologize for making such a statement with no proof.
Like "strawman", "ad hominem" is a term you should refrain from using until you can use it correctly. Pointing out that you have lied isn't an ad hominem argument, it's a statement of verifiable fact.
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Old 17th December 2012, 07:06 AM   #673
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
I call these kind of statements "invisible ad homs". Bottom line is there is no proof I ever lied about anything. You should apologize for making such a statement with no proof.
What do you call it when you run away from answering questions that are on topic?

Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
And yet you've denied equating that person with a divine being. Why do you keep bringing him up? If you agree with Bart Ehrman that an itinerant preacher named Jesus existed who was mortal, why do you believe that morals came from that person? Where did morals come from before 2000 years ago?
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Old 17th December 2012, 02:07 PM   #674
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Originally Posted by catsmate1 View Post
...If you accept Ehrman's opinion on Jesus, why do you reject his opinion on the putative Jesus' divinity?
The only reason I bring up Ehrman because he is respected by many skeptics.
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Old 17th December 2012, 02:15 PM   #675
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
The only reason I bring up Ehrman because he is respected by many skeptics.
Then you agree with Ehrman that a mortal itinerant preacher named Jesus may have existed 2000 years ago? I'd even say that many did. I just don't understand why you credit that person with originating morals.
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Old 17th December 2012, 02:21 PM   #676
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Originally Posted by catsmate1 View Post
And that Jesus wasn't divine, you ignore that bit because it contradicts your fantasy.
Actually Ehrman didn't make a statement of fact that Jesus wasn't divine, he stated he is an agnostic who leans toward Jesus not being divine.


Quote:
And lied and evaded about not reading.
Another skeptic who has no problem making a statement of fact based on a feeling and no proof. Anybody can throw out the word lie, giving proof is another thing. I think it hurts the credibility of skeptics to make such statements of fact based on feelings.


Quote:
Like "strawman", "ad hominem" is a term you should refrain from using until you can use it correctly. Pointing out that you have lied isn't an ad hominem argument, it's a statement of verifiable fact.
Then verify it, which you won't be able to do. And even if it was true, which it isn't, it is just an ad hom strategy by some skeptics which means nothing regarding my factual arguments.

Last edited by DOC; 17th December 2012 at 02:26 PM.
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Old 17th December 2012, 02:36 PM   #677
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
Then you agree with Ehrman that a mortal itinerant preacher named Jesus may have existed 2000 years ago?...
Actually Ehrman said "certainly existed", not may have existed. I give the page number of that quote in my New Testament evidence thread in the history forum. The thread is no longer active.

ETA: the quote is on page 173 of Ehrman's latest book: "Did Jesus exist?".

Last edited by DOC; 17th December 2012 at 02:43 PM.
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Old 17th December 2012, 03:10 PM   #678
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
The only reason I bring up Ehrman because he is respected by many skeptics.
No DOC the only reason you brought up Ehrman was to cherry pick a point and ignore other parts that demolish the point you're trying to make. It's exactly cherry picking.
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Old 17th December 2012, 03:14 PM   #679
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Originally Posted by DOC View Post
Actually Ehrman said "certainly existed", not may have existed. I give the page number of that quote in my New Testament evidence thread in the history forum. The thread is no longer active.

ETA: the quote is on page 173 of Ehrman's latest book: "Did Jesus exist?".
So you agree with Bart Ehrman that a mortal itinerant preacher named Jesus existed 2000 years ago? It's pretty simple, a YES or NO.
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Old 17th December 2012, 03:19 PM   #680
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
So you agree with Bart Ehrman that a mortal itinerant preacher named Jesus existed 2000 years ago? It's pretty simple, a YES or NO.
DOC can't answer that without a lie.
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