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#81 |
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 11,716
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Well ProjectVote is up in arms because people were "heckled" as they walked to a polling station. An even lower bar for intimidation.
Seriously, David, you wouldn't be intimidated if three black men, with attitude, wearing black panther uniforms, one brandishing a night stick in a rather menacing manner, and all of whom were reportedly making racial slurs (according to several witnesses), were standing between you and the doors to a polling station? You're a man's man, David. ![]() |
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#82 |
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 11,716
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Just because they didn't manage to record that on videotape doesn't mean it didn't happen. There were multiple witnesses to that including polling workers and Bartle Bull, a democrat, civil rights activist and former aide to Senator Robert Kennedy. Did you bother to listen to what he described them do in the way of intimidation?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sDoY...layer_embedded |
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#83 |
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Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 32,923
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I was unaware it had ever been a serious crime to be a New Black Panther member. Other than the sick, you have yet to establish that any crime had occurred.
What taunts? What menacing appearance (unless you count dressing in all black and/or combat fatigues menacing, in which case we have a bunch of angst teenagers to jail)? |
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#84 |
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#85 |
Tergiversator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 17,998
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I do find this concerning:
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It seems he was an eye witness. Why was the affidavit not entered? What does that exactly mean? |
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What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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#86 |
Banned
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#87 |
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 11,716
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The complaint from the government stated that the men engaged in "coercion, threats and intimidation, ... racial threats and insults, ... menacing and intimidating gestures, ... and movements directed at individuals who were present to vote." Bartle Bull said he heard one yell "You are about to be ruled by the black man, cracker!" You don't call that a taunt?
As for menacing appearance, imagine it's three Ku Klux Klan members in their uniforms, with nightsticks (or even without), standing in front of a polling place. Would that be ok in your mind, Upchurch? |
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#88 |
Banned
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Posts: 11,716
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#89 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: central Illinois
Posts: 39,700
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__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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#90 |
Graduate Poster
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#91 |
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 11,716
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The government complaint stated that all three men were involved in that.
According to Adams (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,595683,00.html ) five attorneys worked on it: Chris Coates, Bob Popper, Spencer Fisher, Grace Chung Becker and him. When the defendants didn't show, the court found for the prosecution (against all three men). All they had to do at that point was tell the judge what punishment they wanted. Now Adams says that Chris Coates and Bob Popper were ordered by Steve Rosenbaum and Loretta King, two political officials at the DOJ, to dismiss the case. He says there is sworn testimony from the Civil Rights Commission that Jackson (the one without the baton) tried to stop people from going to the polls. He said "witnesses testified that he tried to block them from entering the polls." What do you say we just put Coates and Popper under oath and ask what happened? And ask them what the witnesses had to say under oath? Hmmmmmm? Go ahead, read the above interview with Adams. It's pretty damning, if true. And if it's not true I'd think the democrat side of the aisle would be eager to prove it false. But they are not, are they? ![]() |
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#92 |
Tergiversator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 17,998
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__________________
What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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#93 |
Tergiversator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 17,998
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__________________
What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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#94 |
Banned
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Posts: 11,716
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#95 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,278
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__________________
The poster formerly known as Redtail |
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#96 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 18,863
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I don't care what sortrs of things Bull did in the past. He is going nuts and spewing the lunatic fringe propoganda about ACORN. Lots of former liberals have sold out over the course of 40 years. I do not find him credible. That he defends a jerk like Adams is proof to me that he is a rotten judge of character.
When they can produce credible documents, they might have a case. Otherwise, I consider the blather about orders not to prosecute black violators to be baseless rumors spread by some of the most corrupt slimeballs to have evewr worked in DoJ. Bear in mind that most of the DoJ people in high positions at the time of the transition were hired under arguably the two worst Attorneys General the country has ever had. |
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#97 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 10,023
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__________________
"Structural Engineering is the art of molding materials we do not wholly understand into shapes we cannot precisely analyze so as to understand forces we cannot really assess in such a way that the community at large has no reason to suspect the extent of our own ignorance." James E Amrhein |
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#98 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Yokohama, Japan
Posts: 27,086
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__________________
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool. William Shakespeare |
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#99 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,278
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__________________
The poster formerly known as Redtail |
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#100 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: central Illinois
Posts: 39,700
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What did the heckling involve? I have not an opinion and you are off topic, unless you want to discuss similar cases where other charges were dismissed as well.
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Nice appeal to emotion, what witness and evidemce taht it was more than one member of the NBP that was engaging in taunts? ![]() Sorry, I see people posturing like that all the time, so I judge a big differences between posing and intimidation, it is a variety of factors. |
__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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#101 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: central Illinois
Posts: 39,700
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__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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#102 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: central Illinois
Posts: 39,700
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__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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#103 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: central Illinois
Posts: 39,700
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__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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#104 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: central Illinois
Posts: 39,700
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__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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#105 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: central Illinois
Posts: 39,700
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http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2009/J...9-crt-014.html
"Lawsuit Seeks to Prohibit Voter Intimidation in Future Elections" http://www.justice.gov/crt/voting/mi...a_bpp_comp.php "1. The Attorney General files this action seeking injunctive and declaratory relief pursuant to Section 11(b) of the Voting Rights Act of 1965, as amended, 42 U.S.C. § § 1973, 1973i(b) (2000)." Allegations "9. During his deployment at the polls on November 4, 2008, at the entrance to the polling location at 1221 Fairmount Street, and in the presence of voters, Defendant Samir Shabazz brandished a deadly weapon. The weapon deployed was a nightstick, or baton. The baton included a contoured grip and wrist lanyard. Throughout the course of this deployment at the polling location, and while the polls were open for voting, Defendant Samir Shabazz pointed the weapon at individuals, menacingly tapped it his other hand, or menacingly tapped it elsewhere. This activity occurred approximately eight to fifteen feet from the entrance to the polling location. Defendant Samir Shabazz was accompanied by Defendant Jerry Jackson during this activity, and the two men stood side by side, in apparent formation, throughout most of this deployment. 10. Defendants Samir Shabazz and Jackson made statements containing racial threats and racial insults at both black and white individuals at 1221 Fairmount Street on November 4, 2008, while the polls were open for voting." |
__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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#106 |
Illuminator
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 4,189
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You must be really disappointed that Bush chose not to prosecute the Minuteman who carried a gun to a polling place.
http://mediamatters.org/research/201007050005
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Personally, I think Obama should have prosecuted the Black Panther guy but it was the Bush DOJ that dropped the criminal charges. Hey, what can ya do? |
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#107 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: central Illinois
Posts: 39,700
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__________________
I suspect you are a sandwich, metaphorically speaking. -Donn And a shot rang out. Now Space is doing time... -Ben Burch You built the toilet - don't complain when people crap in it. _Kid Eager Never underestimate the power of the Random Number God. More of evolutionary history is His doing than people think. - Dinwar |
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#108 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,484
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#109 |
Tergiversator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 17,998
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__________________
What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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#110 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 10,023
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I am now becoming convinced by Tu Quoque arguments that nothing should be done. It obviously doesn't matter if Civil Rights were abused because previous administrations allowed Civil Rights to be abused.
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__________________
"Structural Engineering is the art of molding materials we do not wholly understand into shapes we cannot precisely analyze so as to understand forces we cannot really assess in such a way that the community at large has no reason to suspect the extent of our own ignorance." James E Amrhein |
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#111 |
Illuminator
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 4,189
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My point was the criminal charges against the Black Panther people was dropped by the Bush administration without complaint from the right.
My second point was against charges of racism. I pointed out that Bush did not prosecute the Minutemen back in 2006 who were intimidating Hispanic voters. Did Bush drop the charges due to racism? I would not make that claim, nor would I make the claim that Obama did not pursue the Black Panthers due to racism either. We really are too quick to cry "racism". |
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#112 |
Miss Schoolteacher
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 15,221
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If the charges were indeed dropped in both cases due to racism (the Bush administration against Hispanic voters and black, and the Obama administration against white voters), then yes that's unjustifiable no matter WHO does it and should be investigated and rectified immediately.
If, however, the charges were dropped in both cases due to entirely different reasons totally unrelated to racism (for instance, Assistant Attorney General Perez' explanation that any prosecution under the voter intimidation clause is as rare as hen's teeth and always has been, due to the high evidentiary requirements for such prosecutions), though, then that's a vastly different matter. Either way, getting outraged (OUTRAGED!) when the DoJ of an administration you (at the very least) strongly disagree with declines to pursue voter intimidation charges, when you were remarkably silent when the DoJ of an administration that you strongly support (and in Adams' case, actually worked for) declines to pursue voter intimidation charges is disingenuous at best and massively hypocritical at worst. |
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#113 |
Critical Thinker
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 292
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Watching that video I had two thoughts: 1. The Black Panthers still exist???, and 2. I had better re-apply for my absentee ballot.
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#114 |
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Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 32,923
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Incidentally, it's all been done before.
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#115 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 10,023
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__________________
"Structural Engineering is the art of molding materials we do not wholly understand into shapes we cannot precisely analyze so as to understand forces we cannot really assess in such a way that the community at large has no reason to suspect the extent of our own ignorance." James E Amrhein |
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#116 |
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 11,716
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I'm not off topic at all. I'm demonstrating the hypocrisy of the left in this matter … when the left promised hope and change. It's your side of the political aisle that has made voter intimidation a big issue and called for change. And rightly so. Fine. Then stop it. Get tough about it. Don't condone it just because this case just seems to *even the score*.
Project Vote has made the case for more severe punishment of the crime than even a year in jail. And they clearly want to broaden the definition of it. And Project Vote is intimately connected with democrats, Obama and the Obama administration. Well now it's time to show you democrats really mean it. Even if the intimidation is by one of your own this time. Otherwise it's just another example of partisan hypocrisy. That's not an appeal to emotion, David … but to fact. And I notice you don't seem to want to answer the question. Call it a test of reasonableness. As for there being more than one member engaged in taunts, go read the complaint that the FIVE attorneys filed against the men, David. It's against both men. It states
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And keep in mind that Shabazz is no babe in the woods. He is a lawyer who knew that not showing up when the complaint was heard in court was an admission of guilt in the eyes of the law. On top of that, effectively dismissing the already won case, when the NBP is a hate group, sends the wrong message. It also sends the wrong message when you and the others on this thread let the likes of leftysergeant smear a witness like Bartel Bull (who was a lifelong democrat, a long time civil rights attorney, RFK's NY campaign manager, Jimmy Carter's NY campaign manager, and who in 2003 received a civil rights medal from Ted Kennedy for his voting rights work in Mississippi). It says a lot about you. BTW, here is the sworn statement of Bartel Bull in the matter: http://michellemalkin.cachefly.net/m...4-07-20092.pdf In it he states, among other things, that:
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#117 |
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 11,716
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Did you mention that case here at JREF so we could discuss it at the time? Like I've done here? In not, how do you know how I might have responded?
Yes, Roy Warden sounds like a nut and if he did what is alleged, he should have been prosecuted. But you folks are now in charge. No one is preventing you from upholding the law and instituting all that "hope and change" you promised Obama would bring. So where is it … or was it all empty rhetoric? And by the way, the statute of limitations on voter intimidation at the federal level is FIVE years from the date of the incident. So if Warden was intimidating voters in November of 2006, nothing is stopping Obama's DOJ from arresting and charging Roy Warden with it today. Let's see some action rather than a bunch of hypocrisy. |
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#118 |
Illuminator
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 4,189
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Yeah, I bet you are just shedding tears of concern for the possible infringement of voting rights but it is hard to see them through the manic grin on your face brought on by being able to attack Obama once again.
Anyway, Bush decided not to press criminal charges. Must be a reason why he didn't unless you think Bush was racist too. Damn racists everywhere. Look, I already said that Obama could press charges and it would be fine with me but I am not going to have a stroke over it. |
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#119 |
Tergiversator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 17,998
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If we are going to play that game, why didn't you make a thread of it at that time?
this is why Tu Quoque fails at being constructive. Now, I think ANTPogo has made the most lucid argument on the subject:
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1.) Is it a general truth that the evidentiary requirements too high to make anything stick? This should be an easy answer for someone skilled legally. If it is true, it settles the debate on racism, but raises a debate on "are the evidentiary requirements too high"? 2.) What is Adam's opinion on the evidentiary requirements for voter harassment? Was he outraged at the dropping of the minutemen charges? |
__________________
What's the best argument for UHC? This argument against UHC. "Perhaps one reason per capita GDP is lower in UHC countries is because they've tried to prevent this important function [bankrupting the sick] and thus carry forward considerable economic dead wood?"-BeAChooser |
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#120 |
Miss Schoolteacher
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Birmingham, AL
Posts: 15,221
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There was no criminal trial (according to Perez, "the Civil Rights Division determined that the facts did not constitute a prosecutable violation of the criminal statutes", which is what has that high evidence requirement) - the government filed a civil suit against them, seeking an injunction, on January 7, 2009. President Obama wasn't even inaugurated, you'll note, until just over two weeks after this.
Once the Obama administration's DoJ took over the civil case filed by the Bush administration's DoJ, according to Perez there was a second review of the evidence, which found that King Samir Shabazz did, indeed, stand around a polling place brandishing a weapon in an intimidating manner, and continued to pursue the civil injunction against him. The review, however, found that the evidence did not support the pursuit of an injunction against the other two defendants, so they were dropped from the civil case. In other words, they weren't criminally prosecuted for voter intimidation because the department didn't find any evidence for them doing that...and it did so during the Bush Administration. And in the civil suit, the guy that the Obama DoJ did determine was the one standing around the polling place in Philadelphia brandishing a weapon received the injunction that the DoJ sought, which will prevent him from doing that same thing again. Which, you will also note, is more of a penalty than any of the Minutemen in Arizona or state investigators in Mississippi accused of the same offense received from the Bush DoJ. |
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