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Tags Charles Kinsey , Jonathan Aledda , police misconduct charges , police shootings , racial incidents , racism charges

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Old 21st July 2016, 09:27 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by erlando View Post
How about cuffing the gunshot victim placing him face down on the ground for 20 minutes waiting for an arrest squad to take him to jail and only THEN taking him to hospital...?
Er, I think that is the point.
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Old 21st July 2016, 09:28 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Sickening. But defenders of this assault will turn up.....
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Exactly face up. HE should have been face down with his fingers interlaced over his head if he didn't want to be shot.
Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
Most of ponderingturtle's posts are sarcastic hyperbole. Take them with a grain of salt.
This subforum is awesome. We don't even need the contrary position represented here; someone provides it for free.
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Old 21st July 2016, 09:29 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I don't think you can attempt manslaughter. I think the definition of the crime is unintentional killing.

But there are variations on the theme, which vary from state to state. I think it's something along the lines of "assault with a deadly weapon", or "aggravated assault". Of course, there is "attempted murder", which in Michigan is formally called "assault with attempt to murder".

There is also in some states "assault under color of authority", but I don't know whether there's a distinction between such assaults that involve either deadly force or an attempt to kill.
I remember a case where a crook shot a cop (cop didn't die)

... and they charged the crook with simple assault ... conviction was pretty straight forward and he got the maximum sentence of 20 years.
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Old 21st July 2016, 09:30 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
I remember a case where a crook shot a cop (cop didn't die)

... and they charged the crooks its simple assault ... conviction was pretty straight forward and he got the maximum sentence of 20 years.
You don't get 20 years for simple assault, not in the US anyways.
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Old 21st July 2016, 09:32 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by lobosrul View Post
You don't get 20 years for simple assault, not in the US anyways.
I maybe be off on the years (it was substantial .. perhaps 10?) ... here (in Canada) assault technically has a maximum of 14 years .. but that's for aggravated assault

Last edited by Ron Swanson; 21st July 2016 at 09:41 AM. Reason: correct info added
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Old 21st July 2016, 09:32 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Yeggster View Post
Well that seems like the right thing to do ... and maybe a lifetime firearms ban

Had he been convicted of a felony, it would have meant that he could no longer own a firearm. However, the negligent discharge of a firearm in city limits without incurring bodily injury, was a misdemeanor. At days end, I thought that the sanctions and charge he incurred were pretty fair.

In relation to that case, I went on to give my recommendations as to what needed to be done to correct the obvious flaws in the department's firearms training doctrine and supervise the transition into the new doctrine.

To their credit, they implemented all of my most important baseline revisions straight up, as well as all of the minor more flexible items with just a bit of tweaking/tuning.
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Old 21st July 2016, 09:35 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Carnivore View Post
If it was an ND why were they even aiming at the guy trying to talk down the suicidal man? Why cuff him after he was shot? Why cuff him at the hospital when they knew for a fact he was unarmed? What possible crime could he have been suspected of?

OK, this one is boggling my mind. I can't see any plausible explanation for the police behaviour. It must surely have been an accident - but then why treat the victim as a criminal for hours? Were the cops just trying to cover themselves and see if they could trump up some charge to throw at the victim? Did they think he was an accomplice of the truck armed man? Seriously, I have no idea how this could have happened. The whole thing is surreal.
You're having trouble because you're not used to thinking like a criminal.

The cops screwed up. They know they screwed up and they know this could cost them their jobs or even put them in jail. But they're not ready to admit that yet. They want to keep their options open and see if they can conspire together and come up with some reason to justify their actions. Part of that is running checks on this guys ID, searching him and running a drug panel at the hospital. If they find some dirt on him, they can claim that's part of the reason why they shot him. If they treat him like a victim, that option goes away.
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Old 21st July 2016, 09:38 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Newtons Bit View Post
You're having trouble because you're not used to thinking like a criminal.

The cops screwed up. They know they screwed up and they know this could cost them their jobs or even put them in jail. But they're not ready to admit that yet. They want to keep their options open and see if they can conspire together and come up with some reason to justify their actions. Part of that is running checks on this guys ID, searching him and running a drug panel at the hospital. If they find some dirt on him, they can claim that's part of the reason why they shot him. If they treat him like a victim, that option goes away.
Yep cop 101 behavior.
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Old 21st July 2016, 09:42 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by robertovila View Post
Had he been convicted of a felony, it would have meant that he could no longer own a firearm. However, the negligent discharge of a firearm in city limits without incurring bodily injury, was a misdemeanor. At days end, I thought that the sanctions and charge he incurred were pretty fair.

In relation to that case, I went on to give my recommendations as to what needed to be done to correct the obvious flaws in the department's firearms training doctrine and supervise the transition into the new doctrine.

To their credit, they implemented all of my most important baseline revisions straight up, as well as all of the minor more flexible items with just a bit of tweaking/tuning.
Intersting ... I agree Training and More Training and yearly Training!
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Old 21st July 2016, 09:45 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I don't think you can attempt manslaughter. I think the definition of the crime is unintentional killing.

But there are variations on the theme, which vary from state to state. I think it's something along the lines of "assault with a deadly weapon", or "aggravated assault". Of course, there is "attempted murder", which in Michigan is formally called "assault with attempt to murder".
None of those would apply if we assume the discharge was accidental. Under Florida law, it looks like the worst that would apply is culpable negligence resulting in actual harm - a first degree misdemeanor.

The problem is that various other provisions, like assault with a deadly weapon or discharging a weapon in public, don't apply either because there wasn't anything illegal about the cop pointing the weapon at the guy in the first place or because firing the weapon was accidental.
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Old 21st July 2016, 10:23 AM   #131
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If most cops are good, why were none of the good cops on scene here? The idea being that a good cop would demand medical attention for an innocent person accidentally shot by another cop.
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Old 21st July 2016, 10:43 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So what country are you moving to so that you get that?
Ireland?
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Old 21st July 2016, 10:44 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
If most cops are good, why were none of the good cops on scene here? The idea being that a good cop would demand medical attention for an innocent person accidentally shot by another cop.
The "Good" cop took the day off to go to the country and ride his unicorn.
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Old 21st July 2016, 10:45 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
OMG! Another unarmed black man with his hands up shot.
The other unarmed black man shot with his hands up wouldn't be Michael Brown, would he?

If this shooting is as described, the cop should have the book thrown at him through his prison cell.
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Old 21st July 2016, 10:46 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by AdamSK View Post
None of those would apply if we assume the discharge was accidental. Under Florida law, it looks like the worst that would apply is culpable negligence resulting in actual harm - a first degree misdemeanor.

The problem is that various other provisions, like assault with a deadly weapon or discharging a weapon in public, don't apply either because there wasn't anything illegal about the cop pointing the weapon at the guy in the first place or because firing the weapon was accidental.
So...firing three (3) times was an "Accident"?
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Old 21st July 2016, 10:46 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Wolrab View Post
The other unarmed black man shot with his hands up wouldn't be Michael Brown, would he?

If this shooting is as described, the cop should have the book thrown at him through his prison cell.
Fortunately all the ones who just watched their coworker shoot someone then arrest someone who had done nothing wrong and not render medical aid are going to be on the force still. It isn't like there is anything wrong with what they did.
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Old 21st July 2016, 10:47 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Wolrab View Post
The other unarmed black man shot with his hands up wouldn't be Michael Brown, would he?

If this shooting is as described, the cop should have the book thrown at him through his prison cell.
Try reading the article.
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Old 21st July 2016, 10:48 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
So...firing three (3) times was an "Accident"?
Problems of having assault rifles in every cop car.
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Old 21st July 2016, 10:49 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Fortunately all the ones who just watched their coworker shoot someone then arrest someone who had done nothing wrong and not render medical aid are going to be on the force still. It isn't like there is anything wrong with what they did.
Well...nothing "Legally" wrong - but certainly immoral.
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Old 21st July 2016, 10:54 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
So...firing three (3) times was an "Accident"?
Many police-issued rifles have a setting to fire 3-shot bursts. One trigger pull, three shots.

Indicates poor weapons handling, but also seems a plausible sort of accident.
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Old 21st July 2016, 10:54 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I don't think you can attempt manslaughter. I think the definition of the crime is unintentional killing.
Umm, slightly OT but -

https://www.justia.com/criminal/docs...m/500/603.html

Quote:
An attempted killing that would otherwise be attempted murder is reduced to attempted voluntary manslaughter if...
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Old 21st July 2016, 10:57 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Many police-issued rifles have a setting to fire 3-shot bursts. One trigger pull, three shots.

Indicates poor weapons handling, but also seems a plausible sort of accident.
No...They do not.
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Old 21st July 2016, 10:57 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by SteveL View Post
This happened in Florida. Keep in mind that States don't have identical laws, or even the exact same types of gradations for things
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Old 21st July 2016, 10:58 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
Well...nothing "Legally" wrong - but certainly immoral.
Well that depends they likely have some kind of duty to render aid that they did not meet but I doubt that will amount to anything.
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Old 21st July 2016, 10:59 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Well that depends they likely have some kind of duty to render aid that they did not meet but I doubt that will amount to anything.
Probably. Being a moral person doesn't seem to be part of the job description.
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Old 21st July 2016, 11:02 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
My first guess knowing a cop friend : it is SOP.
1) so is rendering aid
2) I call bull on that if it was an accidental discharge
3) Something else here is seriously wrong when the cops couldn't assess the situation with a guy yelling, it's a toy truck!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 21st July 2016, 11:02 AM   #147
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Did the rounds bounce off the ground, perhaps?
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 21st July 2016, 11:03 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
Probably. Being a moral person doesn't seem to be part of the job description.
If any of them had their EMT licence they could be likely charged with poor standard of care. Though not a criminal offense, just adding into the list of things the department will have to pay out for how badly all these cops acted.
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Old 21st July 2016, 11:04 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
Nan, I think it was just an accident, he was already nervous with finger on trigger, and he accidentally added a few pound more and fired in the leg of the guy (so downward rather than center mass).
And the other 2 shots that missed him? More accidental pressure?


I don't understand why it's considered a good idea, let alone legal, for the police in the US to draw their weapon out of the holster as step 1 in so many situations that obviously don't require it.
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Old 21st July 2016, 11:04 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
1) so is rendering aid
2) I call bull on that if it was an accidental discharge
3) Something else here is seriously wrong when the cops couldn't assess the situation with a guy yelling, it's a toy truck!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Clearly you underestimate police incompetence.
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Old 21st July 2016, 11:05 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
No...They do not.
Except... When they do.

This was from earlier in the thread:

Originally Posted by robertovila View Post
I participated in a case a few years ago that involved an officer who accidentally fired his M4 Carbine that very fortunately, only resulted in property damage. He fired three rounds. The basic question in this incident was that firing one shot could be considered an accident, but firing three shots could not.

The rifle issued to the officer had three positions for the selector switch- safe, semi auto, and three round burst. In burst mode, pulling the trigger once fires three rounds in full auto for each pull of the trigger. After examining still photos shot by a bystander, it was clear that the officer had set the selector for three round burst, and had his finger inside of the trigger guard, two very serious safety violations as well as violations of department policy.

(clipped)
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Old 21st July 2016, 11:05 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by Newtons Bit View Post
...Keep in mind that States don't have identical laws, or even the exact same types of gradations for things
Keep in mind that I said it was off topic, and that this instance does not meet the standard in the link. I was addressing the question about the existence of the charge.
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Old 21st July 2016, 11:06 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Clearly you underestimate police incompetence.
Around where I live, a lot of the police are steroid-pumped, tattood skinheads: I never underestimate this mentality.
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Old 21st July 2016, 11:06 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by robertovila View Post
I participated in a case a few years ago that involved an officer who accidentally fired his M4 Carbine that very fortunately, only resulted in property damage. He fired three rounds. The basic question in this incident was that firing one shot could be considered an accident, but firing three shots could not.

The rifle issued to the officer had three positions for the selector switch- safe, semi auto, and three round burst. ....
Fascinating. Never knew that. Looks like some weapons also have 8 round bursts and there are lots of hits on Google that include discussions on the legality of those in the civilian population which I didn't bother reading.

It makes sense to me this could have been a 3-round burst. Still negligent to accidentally pull a trigger.
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Old 21st July 2016, 11:07 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Hardly accidental. He was shot three times.
Shot three times in the leg with an AR-15?

Wouldn't your leg be mangled?
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 21st July 2016, 11:07 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Except... When they do.

This was from earlier in the thread:
Hearsay...of the worst sort.
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Old 21st July 2016, 11:08 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Did the rounds bounce off the ground, perhaps?
Yeah, my guess -- ricochet.
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Old 21st July 2016, 11:08 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Shot three times in the leg with an AR-15?

Wouldn't your leg be mangled?
He was only hit once, three rounds were discharged by officer Opps.
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Old 21st July 2016, 11:09 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
Hearsay...of the worst sort.
Police are certainly able to buy full auto weapons and so why do you claim none of them are issuing them as cruiser rifles?
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Old 21st July 2016, 11:10 AM   #160
Jules Galen
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Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 3,726
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Police are certainly able to buy full auto weapons and so why do you claim none of them are issuing them as cruiser rifles?
That's not what I said.
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