It it time to give up on grammar, punctuation, spelling, etc.? - Page 4

theprestige · 6th July 2018, 06:44 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

I never knew that the double negative had such a fan club.

Ambiguity is the enemy of communication. Too often sentences are laced with double meanings. The speaker is invariably trying to avoid saying something and usually ends up saying "I didn't mean that".

I don't mind languages that are colourful or make use of superfluous adjectives of adverbs but they should not run counter to the laws of logic.

How can an era demand anything?

dann · 6th July 2018, 06:48 AM

Originally Posted by MetalPig

Dutch:
springen, sprong, gesprongen
zingen, zong, gezongen

I wonder why we do those differently?

All of them? Don't you have the i-a-o combination at all? In Denmark, it's also used in many nursery rhymes, and Huey, Dewey & Louie are called Rip, Rap & Rup in Danish translations.

psionl0 · 6th July 2018, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

How can an era demand anything?

Because an "era" is a superior being with powers far beyond those of mortal men.

psionl0 · 6th July 2018, 09:58 AM

Originally Posted by dann

¡No entiendo nada! (It's not really illogical. It's just different. What actually bothers you is your own idea that it's illogical, and there's a logical solution to that problem: Get used to it!)

That is a lengthy translation of 3 words and I am skeptical that you have translated accurately.

Something is either true or false and there is nothing in between so get used to that!

theprestige · 6th July 2018, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Because an "era" is a superior being with powers far beyond those of mortal men.

This seems like an ambiguity that is headed straight for "I didn't mean that."

JoeMorgue · 6th July 2018, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

Something is either true or false and there is nothing in between so get used to that!

Again only if you wish to remain intentionally ignorant of how languages that aren't English work.

"Double negatives" as a linguistic no-no aren't a thing in most languages and those languages don't collapse because they are too confusing.

GlennB · 7th July 2018, 07:54 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Again only if you wish to remain intentionally ignorant of how languages that aren't English work.

"Double negatives" as a linguistic no-no aren't a thing in most languages and those languages don't collapse because they are too confusing.

They're common in Greek, and those people invented logic

dann · 8th July 2018, 09:05 AM

Originally Posted by psionl0

That is a lengthy translation of 3 words and I am skeptical that you have translated accurately.

Something is either true or false and there is nothing in between so get used to that!

It's not a translation of anything. It's an example of a double negative that nobody misunderstands.

psionl0 · 8th July 2018, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by dann

It's not a translation of anything. It's an example of a double negative that nobody misunderstands.

I will have to take your word for it since I can't find a literal translation of the words.

The most common meaning of the phrase seems to be "I don't understand anything" but since that does not contain a double negative it may not be a literal translation. https://www.linguee.com/spanish-engl...endo+nada.html

dann · 8th July 2018, 12:47 PM

Google translate suggests either: I don't understand anything or I understand nothing. Depending on the context, it might also be: I don't understand what you're saying or I don't get it.
If you look up the words one at a time:
entiendo: I understand
no: not
nada: nothing

JoeMorgue · 8th July 2018, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by psionl0

I will have to take your word for it since I can't find a literal translation of the words.

The most common meaning of the phrase seems to be "I don't understand anything" but since that does not contain a double negative it may not be a literal translation. https://www.linguee.com/spanish-engl...endo+nada.html

Do you deny that other language have "double negatives" in their sentence structure without losing understandability and clarity?

If so, you're wrong. If not this nitpick serves no purpose.

Literally millions of people use languages with "double negatives" everyday without lose of clarity or precision. This is an undeniable fact.

You can not like double negatives as a matter of style or fashion or personal preference, but the argument that it in any objective makes the language les clear or less precise is demonstrably false.

GlennB · 8th July 2018, 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by dann

Google translate suggests either: I don't understand anything or I understand nothing. Depending on the context, it might also be: I don't understand what you're saying or I don't get it.
If you look up the words one at a time:
entiendo: I understand
no: not
nada: nothing

Much the same in Greek, which also has a word for 'negation of the following', much like the No in Spanish.

(In Greeklish):

Echo tipota - I have nothing.

Dthen echo tipota - Not I have nothing

tipota, meanwhile, does not translate as 'anything' in other contexts, which would avoid the double negative. It's a pure 'nothing' word.

Caution - my command of Greek is carp, but MrsB confirms all this.

dann · 12th July 2018, 02:49 AM

French too, I think: "Je ne sais pas", "I don't know," with one of the two negations being superfluous: French language: pas

ETA: Maybe it's a Mediterranean thing!

Cheetah · 12th July 2018, 04:32 AM

And in Afrikaans:

I don't know what it is.

Ek weet nie wat dit is nie.
I know not what it is not.

dann · 12th July 2018, 05:44 AM

Afrikaans is a Germanic language so that destroyed my Mediterranean theory ...

Cheetah · 12th July 2018, 06:57 AM

Afrikaans is an exception in this regard.

"Dialectal Dutch, French and San have been suggested as possible origins for this trait."

dann · 12th July 2018, 09:55 AM

Interesting!
However, this seems to be a very complicated way of denying that it's a double negative:

Quote:

The second nie cannot be understood as a noun or adverb (as can, e.g., pas in French), and cannot be substituted by any part of speech other than itself with the sentence remaining grammatical. It is a grammatical particle with no independent meaning that happens to be spelled and pronounced the same as the embedded nie, meaning "not", through historical accident.

angrysoba · 12th July 2018, 03:20 PM

There are also double negatives in Russian. I remember learning a few phrases years ago when I visited Russia, and when I tried to analyze the words I couldn’t understand why there were double negatives. It’s just the way the grammar is in Russian, apparently.

I also know examples of double negatives in both formal and informal Japanese. The adverb “amari” is a negative, but it can go with negatives such as “didn’t eat” - “I didn’t eat not much”.

Also, in informal Japanese “zen zen” means “not at all” and “muri” means impossible. People will say “zen zen muri” which technically means “not at all impossible” but actually is used to mean “completely impossible” and language mavens can squawk all they want about how it is either a double negative or a redundancy. I think I did myself when I was first learning the language and I was not woke to the way language works and expected it to *have* to conform to a prescriptive textbook. When I asked Japanese speakers of the sentence was self-contradictory they would indulge me and say “ha ha yes, I see what you mean but that isn’t the meaning of the sentence.”

Of course double negatives are and were very common in everyday English and in various dialects of English today. They are rarely any more “ambiguous” than most “standard” or “metaphorical” English which most language mavens use unthinkingly knowing that their meaning can be understood well enough.

Klimax · 13th July 2018, 01:15 AM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

There are also double negatives in Russian. I remember learning a few phrases years ago when I visited Russia, and when I tried to analyze the words I couldn’t understand why there were double negatives. It’s just the way the grammar is in Russian, apparently.

Pretty sure all Slavic languages are like that. in fact there are no rules against stringing any number of negatives.

TofuFighter · 13th July 2018, 02:00 AM

Originally Posted by Cheetah

And in Afrikaans:

I don't know what it is.

Ek weet nie wat dit is nie.
I know not what it is not.

I've never thought of that second 'nie' that way. I've only ever considered it as a kind of emphasis of the first one.

"Oral begin mans besef dat hulle nie fyn hoef te wees nie
Dis nie aanvaarbaar om te huil nie
Dis nie aanvaarbaar om te skeer nie
En die enigste tyd toe ons nee se is as hulle vir ons vra of ons genoeg gehad het"

6th July 2018, 06:48 AM	#122
dann Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 5,597	Originally Posted by MetalPig Dutch: springen, sprong, gesprongen zingen, zong, gezongen I wonder why we do those differently? All of them? Don't you have the i-a-o combination at all? In Denmark, it's also used in many nursery rhymes, and Huey, Dewey & Louie are called Rip, Rap & Rup in Danish translations.
dann Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 5,597	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

6th July 2018, 09:53 AM	#123
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 13,066	Originally Posted by theprestige How can an era demand anything? Because an "era" is a superior being with powers far beyond those of mortal men.
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

6th July 2018, 09:58 AM	#124
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 13,066	Originally Posted by dann ¡No entiendo nada! (It's not really illogical. It's just different. What actually bothers you is your own idea that it's illogical, and there's a logical solution to that problem: Get used to it!) That is a lengthy translation of 3 words and I am skeptical that you have translated accurately. Something is either true or false and there is nothing in between so get used to that!
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

6th July 2018, 10:29 AM	#126
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 12,453	Originally Posted by psionl0 Something is either true or false and there is nothing in between so get used to that! Again only if you wish to remain intentionally ignorant of how languages that aren't English work. "Double negatives" as a linguistic no-no aren't a thing in most languages and those languages don't collapse because they are too confusing.
	__________________ "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en

7th July 2018, 07:54 AM	#127
GlennB Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Arcadia, Greece Posts: 23,480	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue Again only if you wish to remain intentionally ignorant of how languages that aren't English work. "Double negatives" as a linguistic no-no aren't a thing in most languages and those languages don't collapse because they are too confusing. They're common in Greek, and those people invented logic
	__________________ "Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut

6th July 2018, 06:44 AM	#121
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 29,011	Originally Posted by psionl0 I never knew that the double negative had such a fan club. Ambiguity is the enemy of communication. Too often sentences are laced with double meanings. The speaker is invariably trying to avoid saying something and usually ends up saying "I didn't mean that". I don't mind languages that are colourful or make use of superfluous adjectives of adverbs but they should not run counter to the laws of logic. How can an era demand anything?

6th July 2018, 10:19 AM	#125
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 29,011	Originally Posted by psionl0 Because an "era" is a superior being with powers far beyond those of mortal men. This seems like an ambiguity that is headed straight for "I didn't mean that."

8th July 2018, 09:05 AM	#128
dann Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 5,597	Originally Posted by psionl0 That is a lengthy translation of 3 words and I am skeptical that you have translated accurately. Something is either true or false and there is nothing in between so get used to that! It's not a translation of anything. It's an example of a double negative that nobody misunderstands.
dann Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 5,597	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

8th July 2018, 10:07 AM	#129
psionl0 Skeptical about skeptics Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E Posts: 13,066	Originally Posted by dann It's not a translation of anything. It's an example of a double negative that nobody misunderstands. I will have to take your word for it since I can't find a literal translation of the words. The most common meaning of the phrase seems to be "I don't understand anything" but since that does not contain a double negative it may not be a literal translation. https://www.linguee.com/spanish-engl...endo+nada.html
	__________________ "The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

8th July 2018, 12:47 PM	#130
dann Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 5,597	Google translate suggests either: I don't understand anything or I understand nothing. Depending on the context, it might also be: I don't understand what you're saying or I don't get it. If you look up the words one at a time: entiendo: I understand no: not nada: nothing
dann Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 5,597	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

8th July 2018, 12:51 PM	#131
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 12,453	Originally Posted by psionl0 I will have to take your word for it since I can't find a literal translation of the words. The most common meaning of the phrase seems to be "I don't understand anything" but since that does not contain a double negative it may not be a literal translation. https://www.linguee.com/spanish-engl...endo+nada.html Do you deny that other language have "double negatives" in their sentence structure without losing understandability and clarity? If so, you're wrong. If not this nitpick serves no purpose. Literally millions of people use languages with "double negatives" everyday without lose of clarity or precision. This is an undeniable fact. You can not like double negatives as a matter of style or fashion or personal preference, but the argument that it in any objective makes the language les clear or less precise is demonstrably false.
	__________________ "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en

8th July 2018, 02:18 PM	#132
GlennB Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Arcadia, Greece Posts: 23,480	Originally Posted by dann Google translate suggests either: I don't understand anything or I understand nothing. Depending on the context, it might also be: I don't understand what you're saying or I don't get it. If you look up the words one at a time: entiendo: I understand no: not nada: nothing Much the same in Greek, which also has a word for 'negation of the following', much like the No in Spanish. (In Greeklish): Echo tipota - I have nothing. Dthen echo tipota - Not I have nothing tipota, meanwhile, does not translate as 'anything' in other contexts, which would avoid the double negative. It's a pure 'nothing' word. Caution - my command of Greek is carp, but MrsB confirms all this.
	__________________ "Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut

12th July 2018, 02:49 AM	#133
dann Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 5,597	French too, I think: "Je ne sais pas", "I don't know," with one of the two negations being superfluous: French language: pas ETA: Maybe it's a Mediterranean thing!
dann Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 5,597	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx Last edited by dann; 12th July 2018 at 02:59 AM.

12th July 2018, 04:32 AM	#134
Cheetah Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 1,000	And in Afrikaans: I don't know what it is. Ek weet nie wat dit is nie. I know not what it is not.
Cheetah Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 1,000	__________________ "... when you dig my grave, could you make it shallow so that I can feel the rain" - DMB Last edited by Cheetah; 12th July 2018 at 04:34 AM.

12th July 2018, 05:44 AM	#135
dann Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 5,597	Afrikaans is a Germanic language so that destroyed my Mediterranean theory ...
dann Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 5,597	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

12th July 2018, 06:57 AM	#136
Cheetah Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 1,000	Afrikaans is an exception in this regard. "Dialectal Dutch, French and San have been suggested as possible origins for this trait."
Cheetah Graduate Poster Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 1,000	__________________ "... when you dig my grave, could you make it shallow so that I can feel the rain" - DMB

12th July 2018, 09:55 AM	#137
dann Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 5,597	Interesting! However, this seems to be a very complicated way of denying that it's a double negative: Quote: The second nie cannot be understood as a noun or adverb (as can, e.g., pas in French), and cannot be substituted by any part of speech other than itself with the sentence remaining grammatical. It is a grammatical particle with no independent meaning that happens to be spelled and pronounced the same as the embedded nie, meaning "not", through historical accident.
dann Philosopher Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 5,597	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

12th July 2018, 03:20 PM	#138
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 23,686	There are also double negatives in Russian. I remember learning a few phrases years ago when I visited Russia, and when I tried to analyze the words I couldn’t understand why there were double negatives. It’s just the way the grammar is in Russian, apparently. I also know examples of double negatives in both formal and informal Japanese. The adverb “amari” is a negative, but it can go with negatives such as “didn’t eat” - “I didn’t eat not much”. Also, in informal Japanese “zen zen” means “not at all” and “muri” means impossible. People will say “zen zen muri” which technically means “not at all impossible” but actually is used to mean “completely impossible” and language mavens can squawk all they want about how it is either a double negative or a redundancy. I think I did myself when I was first learning the language and I was not woke to the way language works and expected it to have to conform to a prescriptive textbook. When I asked Japanese speakers of the sentence was self-contradictory they would indulge me and say “ha ha yes, I see what you mean but that isn’t the meaning of the sentence.” Of course double negatives are and were very common in everyday English and in various dialects of English today. They are rarely any more “ambiguous” than most “standard” or “metaphorical” English which most language mavens use unthinkingly knowing that their meaning can be understood well enough.
	__________________ "The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)

13th July 2018, 01:15 AM	#139
Klimax NWO Cyborg 5960x (subversion VPUNPCKHQDQ) Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Starship Wanderer - DS9 Posts: 12,503	Originally Posted by angrysoba There are also double negatives in Russian. I remember learning a few phrases years ago when I visited Russia, and when I tried to analyze the words I couldn’t understand why there were double negatives. It’s just the way the grammar is in Russian, apparently. Pretty sure all Slavic languages are like that. in fact there are no rules against stringing any number of negatives.
	__________________ ModBorg Engine: Ibalgin 400

13th July 2018, 02:00 AM	#140
TofuFighter Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 1,952	Originally Posted by Cheetah And in Afrikaans: I don't know what it is. Ek weet nie wat dit is nie. I know not what it is not. I've never thought of that second 'nie' that way. I've only ever considered it as a kind of emphasis of the first one. "Oral begin mans besef dat hulle nie fyn hoef te wees nie Dis nie aanvaarbaar om te huil nie Dis nie aanvaarbaar om te skeer nie En die enigste tyd toe ons nee se is as hulle vir ons vra of ons genoeg gehad het"
	__________________ "come on. Judas is meeting us at midnight with the getaway donkeys"