ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » History, Literature, and the Arts
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Russia history , Russia issues , Russia politics

Reply
Old 11th July 2018, 08:25 AM   #681
Craig B
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 22,470
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Before Hitler's Third Reich, lebensraum was an ordinary everyday German word.

Today it translates as genocide.

No furniture store would dare call itself Lebensraum today.
Furniture store? Yes, now I understand. You're buying furniture for your living room!
Craig B is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2018, 08:27 AM   #682
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Moomin Valley
Posts: 13,876
Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
Where the **** did PoL say anything about banning books?
He or she is claiming that writing about utopias is a Nazi activity and thus implies there should have been censorship.
__________________
If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2018, 08:29 AM   #683
Cleon
King of the Pod People
 
Cleon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 25,657
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
He or she is claiming that writing about utopias is a Nazi activity and thus implies there should have been censorship.
No, you're making that implication up out of thin air.

It's dishonest as all hell.
__________________
"People like me are what stand between us and Auschwitz." - Newt Gingrich
Cleon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2018, 08:51 AM   #684
Porpoise of Life
Illuminator
 
Porpoise of Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,406
Actually, I was saying that writing a 'utopia' about conquering neighbouring lands in order to repopulate them with your own ethnic group is an example of a Lebensraum policy, regardless of whether it's written by Nazis or anyone else. I'm not calling the Fins Nazis, and not advocating any kind of censorship. Stop lying.
Porpoise of Life is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2018, 09:20 AM   #685
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Moomin Valley
Posts: 13,876
Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Actually, I was saying that writing a 'utopia' about conquering neighbouring lands in order to repopulate them with your own ethnic group is an example of a Lebensraum policy, regardless of whether it's written by Nazis or anyone else. I'm not calling the Fins Nazis, and not advocating any kind of censorship. Stop lying.

This is absolute nonsense. It has no parallel with the German plan to rid the world of non-Germans.

But it seems to fulfil a need in you to believe an extreme position.

Good luck, but fantasy will never replace the real world.
__________________
If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2018, 09:30 AM   #686
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 19,576
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
This is absolute nonsense. It has no parallel with the German plan to rid the world of non-Germans.

But it seems to fulfil a need in you to believe an extreme position.

Good luck, but fantasy will never replace the real world.
Did you miss this part:
Quote:
Suffering from severe underpopulation, especially after the planned expulsion of the "non-national" ethnic groups, the Finns theorized several possible ways to repopulate the region. Most suggestions revolved around the re-settlement of certain Finnic minorities of Russia.
__________________
"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf

"I think accuracy is important" - Vixen
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2018, 09:43 AM   #687
LondonJohn
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 13,506
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
This is absolute nonsense. It has no parallel with the German plan to rid the world of non-Germans.

But it seems to fulfil a need in you to believe an extreme position.

Good luck, but fantasy will never replace the real world.


How on Earth can you STILL not understand (or perhaps refuse to understand) the difference between:

a) The aim of expanding your country by invading and colonising neighbouring countries, disbanding the mechanisms of state of the invaded countries, and usually displacing the indigenous population (= Lebensraum)

and

b) actively seeking to exterminate the peoples of the countries that you invade and colonise (= genocide)?


It so happened that when Nazi Germany invaded the Soviet Union, it had both aims. Nazi ideology promoted both concepts: Lebensraum, and the notion that Slavic peoples (and especially the Jews and Gypsies/Romany among the Slavs) were untermensch who at the very least ought to be deprived of food and shelter, and who at worst needed to be executed.

But that just happened to be the case wrt Germany's invasion of the Soviet Union. By contrast, for example, Nazi Germany's invasion of France had Lebensraum as a contributory factor, but NOT genocide (other than of the French Jews and Communists - the remainder of the French population were not in Germany's sights whatsoever).

And likewise, Finland's attempted colonisation of East Karelia during WWII was driven by Lebensraum but (almost certainly) not genocide - although it's clear that (as with a good proportion of Lebensraum policies) the aim was to effectively force the Russian population to leave.
LondonJohn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2018, 11:43 AM   #688
Agatha
Winking at the Moon
Moderator
 
Agatha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 12,615
Mod Info This thread appears to have become a catch-all for discussions on Karelian independence, Finnish participation in WWII and the occasional reference to the original subject of the thread which was the restoration of the Russian Monarchy.

Rather than attempt to undo the several strands of discussion into separate threads, I have closed the original Karelian independence thread and retitled this one to more accurately reflect the conversation.
Posted By:Agatha
__________________
Why can't you be more like Agatha? - Loss Leader
Agatha is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2018, 03:46 PM   #689
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Moomin Valley
Posts: 13,876
Here's a picture of Kenraali (General) Oesch, with President Svinhufvud visiting Maaselkä:

https://www.sotasampo.fi/fi/units/page/actor_14398

(You have to click on the photo sequence.)
__________________
If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2018, 05:41 PM   #690
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 19,576
Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
The Nazi ideas were added later*, but the ethnocentric nationalist expansionist ideas were there from the start.

*after the first draft, but before publication, so it doesn't appear that the authors and/or publisher actually objected to those Nazi ideas.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
ETA: Once authors have signed on a book deal, the rights belong to the publisher, who can then add any introduction it likes and even change the title and the cover. The revision into a Nazi ideal was done by a Nazi in Germany and it was published in German.
That's not a given. And you're trying to confuse the point. The book was commissioned by the Finnish government and:
Quote:
It was written by geographer Väinö Auer, historian Eino Jutikkala and ethnographer Kustaa Vilkuna who worked for the Finland's state propaganda and information department. National Socialist ideas were later added to the script by Yrjö von Grönhagen, a Nazi-minded Finnish military attaché in Berlin.
So both the original text and the later changes were done by employees of the Finnish government, and thus they reflect the official government position.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Are you a member of the thought police?

Would you ban Sibelius' Finlandia? It was all part of the same nationalistic fervour that followed independence.
It's good that nobody spoke of banning.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
What about La Marseillaises which seems to be about bring a horrible death to its enemies (who were usually the English)?
Did you read another text? The Marseillaise (mind the spelling) calls to defend the French revolution against the foreign invaders. Who were more likely to be Austrians and Prussians, especially given that Rouget de Lisle hailed from Strasbourg. There were actually no English soldiers in the field until Wellington's Peninsular campaign got steam. I think that, until Waterloo, actually a bigger number of English soldiers were incapacitated by typhus and malaria than by French fire, and I don't see the Marseillaise making mention of horrific diseases.
__________________
"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf

"I think accuracy is important" - Vixen
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2018, 05:56 PM   #691
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Alexandria, VA Home to the Deep State.
Posts: 16,909
Here's what we don't know and we don't know anyone ever tried. We don't know what would have happened if Finland had gone to the Americans and the UK and said, "we don't want concede territory to the USSR and we don't want to be party to Germany war aims; we want to be left alone can you help us out?". That conversation never happened. Since it never happened we don't know how it would have turned out. Suffice it to say, Finland was never NATO and never Warsaw Pact so we don't know what agreement could have been reached.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2018, 05:57 PM   #692
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 19,576
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Here's a picture of Kenraali (General) Oesch, with President Svinhufvud visiting Maaselkä:

https://www.sotasampo.fi/fi/units/page/actor_14398

(You have to click on the photo sequence.)
You're so proud of your war criminal that you post pictures of him?
__________________
"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf

"I think accuracy is important" - Vixen
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2018, 06:02 PM   #693
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 19,576
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
And Veps?

and Ingrian?
Bump.

Do you think Veps and Ingrian are languages or dialects?
__________________
"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf

"I think accuracy is important" - Vixen
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2018, 10:45 PM   #694
Marras
Thinker
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 232
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Dialect.
Note that here's again some equivocation going on.

"Karelian" is both a dialect of Finnish and a separate language.

Basically, the Finnic languages North of Gulf of Finland form a continuum where South Western dialects of Finnish in the West and Veps in the East are clearly different languages whose speakers can't understand each other, but you could draw the borders between languages in several different ways.

The generally accepted division is that there are four major Finnic languages: Finnish, Karelian, Veps, and Estonian (though, Veps is now a dying language but it used to have a lot of speakers). The division between Finnish and Karelian follows roughly (but not exactly) the historical border between Finland and Russia: dialects spoken West of the border are classed as Finnish, those East are Karelian even though they could be lumped together as dialects of one language. The Eastern dialects of Finnish are called "Karelian" that's why Karelian is both a language and a dialect.

The areas to the East and SE of Lake Ladoga were historically territories of the Veps (there's considerable debate on how far North they extended). Most of those areas have turned Russian long time ago. The Northern dialects of the Veps are close to the Onega dialect of Karelian. That form of Karelian is far enough from standard Finnish that a typical Finn won't understand it. I certainly don't. A Finn from Kuhmo or Suomussalmi would probably have a lot less trouble with it than I do.

Onega Karelian is close to Viena Karelian. That's the point where the language starts to get close enough to Finnish that they are mutually intelligible. There are still a lot of differences, but a Finn who knows standard Finnish will understand most of Viena Karelian and a Viena Karelian will understand most of standard Finnish. I suspect that the Karelian would have severe troubles with South Western dialects of Finnish and there would be similar troubles for a South Western Finn who somehow managed to avoid learning standard Finnish.

Viena Karelian in turn is close to the Karelian dialect of Finnish.

I personally would have no problems with classifying Viena Karelian as a dialect of Finnish, but I wouldn't extend that to Onega Karelian. But Viena and Onega Karelian are close enough each other that it wouldn't make much sense to insist that they are different languages. Where to draw the borders between Finnic languages is quite arbitrary, and I don't see much problems in the modern convention.
Marras is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2018, 11:26 PM   #695
Marras
Thinker
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 232
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
We don't know what would have happened if Finland had gone to the Americans and the UK and said, "we don't want concede territory to the USSR and we don't want to be party to Germany war aims; we want to be left alone can you help us out?".
We know one thing: at the point when that discussion could be had, Germany had conquered both Norway and Denmark. Which means that neither America nor UK could have done anything to help Finland without first clearing the Danish Straits. And that wasn't going to happen 1941 or 1942.

(And no, capturing Northern Norway - if there was will in the UK to launch such operation after Narvik - near Petsamo wouldn't cut it as the Arctic Sea Road lacked carrying capacity for required imports).
Marras is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 11th July 2018, 11:33 PM   #696
Marras
Thinker
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 232
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Do you think Veps and Ingrian are languages or dialects?
By the way, Ingrian (inkeroinen) is one of the difficult cases. It now has less than 150 speakers and never had more than a few thousand, and it has been classified as an independent language, a dialect of Finnish, and a dialect of Karelian by various people in various times.
Marras is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 12:07 AM   #697
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Moomin Valley
Posts: 13,876
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
You're so proud of your war criminal that you post pictures of him?
As the (not quite full) General, the buck stops with him. A rogue soldier took to summary execution.

However, the USSR being victors were demanding blood. Finland had to do whatever merry dance it demanded, as if Stalin's atrocities were not all the worse for having his official sanction and his acts shrouded in secrecy, cloaked by his secret police (cf. mass graves now being found in Karelian woods of Stalinist summary executions).

Yes, the buck stops with Oesch, and in addition, Ryti. Some say their punishment was harsh, but not fair.

Quote:
Oesch retired of his own will in September 1945. He was aware that the Soviets had demanded his arrest as a war criminal. For a moment Oesch thought of escaping to Sweden, but in the end decided to stay and face the charges. He was arrested the same month and later tried. Four years earlier, in September 1941, Oesch had given an order that permitted the guards to use their arms if POWs refused to follow orders. The details of the affair are not clear, but apparently some trigger-happy men took liberties with the orders, and a number of Soviet POWs were killed. Oesch stood accused of ordering the execution of 17 POWs.

According to Finnish sources, proof for Oesch’s personal responsibility for these deaths was rather dubious. But in the postwar political climate it was imperative to fulfill the Soviet demands in order not to give them any excuses to intervene even more in Finnish affairs. Oesch was condemned to twelve years of penal servitude by a Finnish military court on 19 July 1946, although the sentence was commuted to three years by the highest court on 2 February 1948. Nevertheless, Oesch’s military career was finished. Oesch was the only senior Finn to be convicted of war crimes.
Finns are not allowed to commemorate their fallen dead, except very discretely.
__________________
If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 12:14 AM   #698
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Moomin Valley
Posts: 13,876
Originally Posted by Marras View Post
Note that here's again some equivocation going on.

"Karelian" is both a dialect of Finnish and a separate language.

Basically, the Finnic languages North of Gulf of Finland form a continuum where South Western dialects of Finnish in the West and Veps in the East are clearly different languages whose speakers can't understand each other, but you could draw the borders between languages in several different ways.

The generally accepted division is that there are four major Finnic languages: Finnish, Karelian, Veps, and Estonian (though, Veps is now a dying language but it used to have a lot of speakers). The division between Finnish and Karelian follows roughly (but not exactly) the historical border between Finland and Russia: dialects spoken West of the border are classed as Finnish, those East are Karelian even though they could be lumped together as dialects of one language. The Eastern dialects of Finnish are called "Karelian" that's why Karelian is both a language and a dialect.

The areas to the East and SE of Lake Ladoga were historically territories of the Veps (there's considerable debate on how far North they extended). Most of those areas have turned Russian long time ago. The Northern dialects of the Veps are close to the Onega dialect of Karelian. That form of Karelian is far enough from standard Finnish that a typical Finn won't understand it. I certainly don't. A Finn from Kuhmo or Suomussalmi would probably have a lot less trouble with it than I do.

Onega Karelian is close to Viena Karelian. That's the point where the language starts to get close enough to Finnish that they are mutually intelligible. There are still a lot of differences, but a Finn who knows standard Finnish will understand most of Viena Karelian and a Viena Karelian will understand most of standard Finnish. I suspect that the Karelian would have severe troubles with South Western dialects of Finnish and there would be similar troubles for a South Western Finn who somehow managed to avoid learning standard Finnish.

Viena Karelian in turn is close to the Karelian dialect of Finnish.

I personally would have no problems with classifying Viena Karelian as a dialect of Finnish, but I wouldn't extend that to Onega Karelian. But Viena and Onega Karelian are close enough each other that it wouldn't make much sense to insist that they are different languages. Where to draw the borders between Finnic languages is quite arbitrary, and I don't see much problems in the modern convention.
All Finns have trouble understanding SW Finnish dialect. I take it you are from Tampere (|traditional rivalry) where people talk so slowly, one falls asleep before they get to the end of a sentence.

An aunt, who spoke not a word of English, but was somewhat of an expert on Finnish dialect, said she had no problem in understanding Estonian, in her various day trips to Tallinna.
__________________
If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 01:27 AM   #699
Marras
Thinker
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 232
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
All Finns have trouble understanding SW Finnish dialect.
Nope. There are some dialect words that are not in use in other parts of the country, but a person from Eastern parts of the country does understand speakers of South Western dialects perfectly well, if it might sound funny to their ears. (With the extreme exception of old Rauma dialect that no one speaks anymore as that one borrows so heavily from Swedish also for common everyday words that it is really difficult for outsiders).

Quote:
I take it you are from Tampere (|traditional rivalry) where people talk so slowly, one falls asleep before they get to the end of a sentence.
You take it wrong, and I don't really understand how you came to that conclusion. I basically said that the SW dialects are the furthest from Karelian that you can get in Finnish and that's all. Jumping directly from that language to Viena Karelian is a big step and likely not be intelligible, but the midway stepping point of standard book Finnish makes the step manageable.

In case you need to know, I have lived almost my whole life near Helsinki but my parents are from Western parts of the country.

Quote:
An aunt, who spoke not a word of English, but was somewhat of an expert on Finnish dialect, said she had no problem in understanding Estonian, in her various day trips to Tallinna.
The average Finn doesn't understand Estonian any more than the average Finn understands Onega Karelian. The folks coming from SW parts have easier time to learn it as the SW dialects of Finnish have been influenced by Estonian. Similarly to how folks from Kuhmo and Suomussalmi have easier time learning Onega Karelian as the Kuhmo and Suomussalmi dialects are really close to Viena Karelian. (In fact, some of the border villages of those municipalities were historically Karelian speaking).
Marras is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 02:22 AM   #700
Tolls
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,172
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Did you read another text? The Marseillaise (mind the spelling) calls to defend the French revolution against the foreign invaders. Who were more likely to be Austrians and Prussians, especially given that Rouget de Lisle hailed from Strasbourg. There were actually no English soldiers in the field until Wellington's Peninsular campaign got steam. I think that, until Waterloo, actually a bigger number of English soldiers were incapacitated by typhus and malaria than by French fire, and I don't see the Marseillaise making mention of horrific diseases.
The English were usually considered the main enemy as they were often the bank-rollers for the various coalitions.

In addition, though they may not have played a major role onthe continent, they did a lot of damage to French possessions abroad.
Tolls is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 03:25 AM   #701
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 19,576
Originally Posted by Marras View Post
Note that here's again some equivocation going on.

"Karelian" is both a dialect of Finnish and a separate language.
Thank you for your explanation. However, I don't think equivocation is at the heart of that claim of Vixen. See what she wrote here last page:

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
...and about how the Dutch are deutsch.
Or what she wrote half a year ago:
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Yiddish is a German dialect which borrowed much from the shtetl populations.
It's about denying people their own cultural identity and being able to argue that all of Karelia should be part of Greater Finland.
__________________
"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf

"I think accuracy is important" - Vixen
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 03:36 AM   #702
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 19,576
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
As the (not quite full) General, the buck stops with him. A rogue soldier took to summary execution.
Ah, that downplaying again. He was accused of (a) ordering personally the execution of 17 POWs, and (b) writing the order that instructed others to treat POWs with abandon.

According to someone in this reddit thread, the order read:
Quote:
the treatment of prisoners must be extremely strict. All light-handedness is unthinkable [....] Prisoners who show any resistance shall be executed immediately, to statute examples for the rest. [...] One has to remember, that a Muscovite is always a Muscovite, and must be treated and chastised accordingly. All kindness is unthinkable, since the Muscovite is not used to it, and will see it as a sign of weakness of his master. [...] Difficult prisoners and agitators shall be removed without mercy. In case executions are done, such prisoners shall be marked in the document as "removed"
Marras, could you comment on the veracity of that?

If that's true, that order is a clear breach of the The Hague conventions.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Finns are not allowed to commemorate their fallen dead, except very discretely.
Boohoo. Germans aren't allowed to commemorate Jodl and Keitel either, and they were as fine and upstanding soldiers as Oesch.
__________________
"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf

"I think accuracy is important" - Vixen
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 04:06 AM   #703
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 19,576
Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
How on Earth can you STILL not understand (or perhaps refuse to understand) the difference between:

a) The aim of expanding your country by invading and colonising neighbouring countries, disbanding the mechanisms of state of the invaded countries, and usually displacing the indigenous population (= Lebensraum)

and

b) actively seeking to exterminate the peoples of the countries that you invade and colonise (= genocide)?
I'd make a trichotomy out of it:

(1) conquering and colonizing neighbouring countries and subjugating the indigenous population to second-class citizens. This is what happened during the historical "Drang nach Osten" and what, e.g., Vixen's Baltic-German ancestors were doing;

(2) conquering and colonizing neighbouring countries and ethnically cleanse the indigenous population. This is what the Finnish plans with East Karelia were about;

(3) conquering and colonizing neighbouring countries and genocide the indigenous population. This is what Hitler's plan was.

I assume your opening question to Vixen is rhetorical, after all her apologetics for Nazi crimes including the Holocaust (which was according to her all fine and dandy legal) and for Luther's antisemitic rants.
__________________
"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf

"I think accuracy is important" - Vixen
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 04:46 AM   #704
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Moomin Valley
Posts: 13,876
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Ah, that downplaying again. He was accused of (a) ordering personally the execution of 17 POWs, and (b) writing the order that instructed others to treat POWs with abandon.

According to someone in this reddit thread, the order read:


Marras, could you comment on the veracity of that?

If that's true, that order is a clear breach of the The Hague conventions.


Boohoo. Germans aren't allowed to commemorate Jodl and Keitel either, and they were as fine and upstanding soldiers as Oesch.
I do know that the USSR corps had the reputation of never, never, never, never surrendering and would always prefer to fight to the death. So maybe the order 'shoot to kill' derives from that.

I would be surprised if the claimed instruction about Muscovites is authentic. A highly skilled and highly regarded army officer is not likely to be so stupid as to put such a ridiculous instruction in writing.

It was a fact, though, that superiors at one stage during the war were given the right to shoot insubordinate soldiers without having to go through court martial. Possibly a throwback from the 1918 civil war.
__________________
If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 04:52 AM   #705
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Moomin Valley
Posts: 13,876
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
I'd make a trichotomy out of it:

(1) conquering and colonizing neighbouring countries and subjugating the indigenous population to second-class citizens. This is what happened during the historical "Drang nach Osten" and what, e.g., Vixen's Baltic-German ancestors were doing;

(2) conquering and colonizing neighbouring countries and ethnically cleanse the indigenous population. This is what the Finnish plans with East Karelia were about;

(3) conquering and colonizing neighbouring countries and genocide the indigenous population. This is what Hitler's plan was.

I assume your opening question to Vixen is rhetorical, after all her apologetics for Nazi crimes including the Holocaust (which was according to her all fine and dandy legal) and for Luther's antisemitic rants.
Your scurrilous trolling reflects on you. I resent and object to your phony accusation. Just because you are an old Stalinist, it doesn't follow that others not as extreme ultra-left as you are fascists and Holocaust deniers.

There are the correct figures and then there are lies.
__________________
If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 05:15 AM   #706
kayle
Thinker
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 176
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Here's what we don't know and we don't know anyone ever tried. We don't know what would have happened if Finland had gone to the Americans and the UK and said, "we don't want concede territory to the USSR and we don't want to be party to Germany war aims; we want to be left alone can you help us out?". That conversation never happened. Since it never happened we don't know how it would have turned out. Suffice it to say, Finland was never NATO and never Warsaw Pact so we don't know what agreement could have been reached.
You mean the same Americans and UK who later sat with Stalin in Yalta and divided the entire Europe like a cake?

btw, there were quite many naive people in the USSR occupied countries who believed the US would come and free them, like, still in the 1950s. Now I understand what was wrong... They forgot to go and tell that to the Americans and the UK...

Last edited by kayle; 12th July 2018 at 05:19 AM.
kayle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 06:38 AM   #707
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 19,576
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I do know that the USSR corps had the reputation of never, never, never, never surrendering and would always prefer to fight to the death. So maybe the order 'shoot to kill' derives from that.
Oesch's order was about the treatment of disarmed POWs, not about armed soldiers in the field.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I would be surprised if the claimed instruction about Muscovites is authentic. A highly skilled and highly regarded army officer is not likely to be so stupid as to put such a ridiculous instruction in writing.
I didn't ask you.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It was a fact, though, that superiors at one stage during the war were given the right to shoot insubordinate soldiers without having to go through court martial. Possibly a throwback from the 1918 civil war.
Ah yes, those orders from Mannerheim himself during the Civil War. What percentage of Reds died in camps after the end of the war? Finland seems to have an atrocious record when it comes to internment camps, be they Reds after the Civil War, Russian civilian internees or Soviet POWs during WW2.
__________________
"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf

"I think accuracy is important" - Vixen
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 07:54 AM   #708
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Moomin Valley
Posts: 13,876
Originally Posted by kayle View Post
You mean the same Americans and UK who later sat with Stalin in Yalta and divided the entire Europe like a cake?

btw, there were quite many naive people in the USSR occupied countries who believed the US would come and free them, like, still in the 1950s. Now I understand what was wrong... They forgot to go and tell that to the Americans and the UK...
Yes, the Brits here think Finland should have politely asked Churchill for help, even though he was in bed with Stalin, like a two-bit whore.
__________________
If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 08:33 AM   #709
Tolls
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,172
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Yes, the Brits here think Finland should have politely asked Churchill for help, even though he was in bed with Stalin, like a two-bit whore.
Or, you know, not gone to war allied to Germany.
Just a thought.
Tolls is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 08:40 AM   #710
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Moomin Valley
Posts: 13,876
Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
Or, you know, not gone to war allied to Germany.
Just a thought.
Riiiiight. Finland always wanted to be a Stalinist state, like Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Estonia, or alternatively, an occupied Nazi state, like Norway, Denmark, the Netherlands, Greece, France, Guernsey.


Attack was the best form of defence. Finland retains its independence, western democracy, language, and no repopulation by shipped-in Russians, and we still own our land.

It's a no-brainer, Tolls.
__________________
If man has no tea in him, he is incapable of understanding truth and beauty. ~ Japanese Proverb
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 09:14 AM   #711
kayle
Thinker
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 176
Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
Or, you know, not gone to war allied to Germany.
Just a thought.
you must have an ocean of other alternatives to offer, I guess? or is your alternative the FSSR, Finnish Soviet Socialist Republic?
It's really comfy to sit by your comp and give advice what a country should have done 77 years ago. many countries at that time were ground between two evils. Oh, I keep forgetting, my bad, we should have done this: had gone to the Americans and the UK and said, "we don't want concede territory to the USSR and we don't want to be party to Germany war aims; we want to be left alone can you help us out?"
kayle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 09:21 AM   #712
kayle
Thinker
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 176
I can assure you that "we want to be left alone" was the only will in Finland, the Baltics, Poland etc etc. the UK watched cold-bloodedly how was Austria annected, Czechoslovakia occupied by Germany and Poland torn apart between two superpowers, with so many victims killed by both moustach guys. The US stepped in quite late, if you care to explore. and now you tell us that Finland and others should have "gone to the Americans and the UK and said, "we don't want concede territory to the USSR and we don't want to be party to Germany war aims; we want to be left alone can you help us out?"" Really really really?
kayle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 09:27 AM   #713
Porpoise of Life
Illuminator
 
Porpoise of Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 4,406
I'm more than willing to accept that allying itself with the Nazis was something Finland thought it needed to do to keep the Russians away. There are precious few perfect options when an entire continent is at war.

Vixen however, keeps denying that this alliance even existed. That's my problem with her posts.
Porpoise of Life is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 09:36 AM   #714
kayle
Thinker
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 176
heck, maybe Stalin misundertood us. he would not have occupied us if we had told him we don't want to...
kayle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 09:43 AM   #715
kayle
Thinker
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 176
Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
I'm more than willing to accept that allying itself with the Nazis was something Finland thought it needed to do to keep the Russians away. There are precious few perfect options when an entire continent is at war.

Vixen however, keeps denying that this alliance even existed. That's my problem with her posts.
Has she indeed? I have not read all comments in these topics, but I don't have such an impression. Well, I was called some Baltic Neonazi just because I linked a film about Stalin regime.
kayle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 10:12 AM   #716
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 19,576
Originally Posted by kayle View Post
heck, maybe Stalin misundertood us. he would not have occupied us if we had told him we don't want to...
It would help if you'd explain who "us" is in that sentence, IOW, from what country you come.

As to Finland, I think it did tell Stalin in no uncertain terms that they didn't want him. I also note that Hitler didn't lift a finger, then, for Finland's defence either; quite the converse.

But as Porpoise of Life already remarked, Vixen lies not only about the alliance between Finland and Nazi Germany, she lies about literally everything. Any sensible discussion about this topic is simply not possible with her present.
__________________
"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf

"I think accuracy is important" - Vixen
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 10:21 AM   #717
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 19,576
Originally Posted by kayle View Post
Has she indeed? I have not read all comments in these topics, but I don't have such an impression. Well, I was called some Baltic Neonazi just because I linked a film about Stalin regime.
Yes, she has consistently been denying Finland and Nazi Germany were allies. Each time someone says they were allies, she says "no they were co-belligerents" and then erects the strawman that that would imply that Finland were Nazis, together with the lie that Italy's alliance with Germany made them Nazis.

You might carefully read back not only this thread, but also the 100 year Finland thread of half a year ago where you supported Vixen and especially pay attention to:
(1) the above sketched exchanges
(2) who brought up Stalin first (Vixen) and started the comparison who was the bigger evil, Hitler and Stalin (Vixen)
(3) who lied about the historical evidence about (2) and especially refused to acknowledge the evidence for about half of Hitler's civilian victims (i.e., Vixen).

it would behoove you to do actually read all the comments, otherwise you're just arguing in bad faith.
__________________
"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf

"I think accuracy is important" - Vixen
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 10:23 AM   #718
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 19,576
Originally Posted by kayle View Post
I can assure you that "we want to be left alone" was the only will in Finland, the Baltics, Poland etc etc. the UK watched cold-bloodedly how was Austria annected, Czechoslovakia occupied by Germany and Poland torn apart between two superpowers, with so many victims killed by both moustach guys.
The Chamberlain and Munich thread is that way.
__________________
"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf

"I think accuracy is important" - Vixen
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 10:25 AM   #719
kayle
Thinker
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 176
Originally Posted by ddt View Post
It would help if you'd explain who "us" is in that sentence, IOW, from what country you come.

As to Finland, I think it did tell Stalin in no uncertain terms that they didn't want him. I also note that Hitler didn't lift a finger, then, for Finland's defence either; quite the converse.

But as Porpoise of Life already remarked, Vixen lies not only about the alliance between Finland and Nazi Germany, she lies about literally everything. Any sensible discussion about this topic is simply not possible with her present.
help as to what? us is the small Baltic countries noone knows anyway. Ukraine and others were 'reposessed' to the friendly USSR bunch. Legally fine...
kayle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th July 2018, 10:32 AM   #720
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 19,576
Originally Posted by kayle View Post
help as to what? us is the small Baltic countries noone knows anyway. Ukraine and others were 'reposessed' to the friendly USSR bunch. Legally fine...

It would certainly help if you just said "I'm Estonian" or "I'm Latvian" etc. Is that such a hard question? Otherwise, your "us" is quite nebulous. I'd have thought that speaks for itself.


<snip>


Edited by Loss Leader:  Edited for Rule 11.
__________________
"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf

"I think accuracy is important" - Vixen

Last edited by Loss Leader; 12th July 2018 at 05:10 PM.
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » History, Literature, and the Arts

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:11 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.