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Old 11th July 2018, 06:45 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
So what's the issue then?
...is that a genuine question? If it is, then can I suggest reading the below article, which will articulate "the issue" far better than I could. Its a lengthy read, but worth it IMHO.

http://www.newnownext.com/matt-bomer...ender/06/2017/
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Old 11th July 2018, 06:50 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
...is that a genuine question? If it is, then can I suggest reading the below article, which will articulate "the issue" far better than I could. Its a lengthy read, but worth it IMHO.

http://www.newnownext.com/matt-bomer...ender/06/2017/
It is, but if you're not capable of articulating your own ideas I don't see much point in having a discussion with you.

I'll read the article for my own sake, but I'd also appreciate you attempting to explain the meaning of your own words.
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Old 11th July 2018, 06:52 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Then why even mention it? The way I see it, there's no such thing as "roles for trans actors", so there can't be any such thing as "practically no roles for trans actors". There's just roles, period. Trans actors have no more claim to this role than cis actors do.
...in a perfect world I could see myself agreeing with you. But we are in an imperfect world. A world where representation matters. Martin Luther King implored Nichelle Nichols to not quit Star Trek because having positive African American role-models on TV is important.

Its easy to say "roles are just roles" when you've got no skin in the game. I'm not arguing Trans actors should be able to "claim roles more than cis actors." I'm saying we don't have to do things the way we've always done it.
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Old 11th July 2018, 06:54 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
It is, but if you're not capable of articulating your own ideas I don't see much point in having a discussion with you.
...feel free to ignore me then.

Quote:
I'll read the article for my own sake, but I'd also appreciate you attempting to explain the meaning of your own words.
If you genuinely want to understand the issues then take the time to understand them. I have an actual life. Posting on messageboards isn't a job.
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Old 11th July 2018, 07:18 PM   #165
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1/5 female director nominees win? Sounds pretty good
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Old 11th July 2018, 08:53 PM   #166
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It's fairly easy to see that someone is of another ethnicity or culture by visual inspection and educated guessing.

It's more difficult to see sexuality, which is why this isn't as outrageous. And I have no problem with it. I will say it's far better than claiming you want a "same race actor" and then accepting someone from a totally different country or culture to play the part, so long as the skin color is on point. eyes roll outta my head then.
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Old 11th July 2018, 10:03 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I don't see why it should be controversial. A trans man should be cast to play the part of a trans man.
Not controversial, just stupid.
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Old 11th July 2018, 10:41 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
Not controversial, just stupid.
Okay, I'll bite. Why "stupid"? I can understand "impractical" or "unlikely" or "insufficient to draw enough revenue for the producer", all of which have already been discussed extensively, but why "stupid"?
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Old 11th July 2018, 10:54 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
If you genuinely want to understand the issues then take the time to understand them.
I am, thanks.

Quote:
I have an actual life. Posting on messageboards isn't a job.
Sure, but if you're going to spend some of your time posting you might as well actually convey the ideas that you are attempting to convey.

Its not a matter of spending more time posting than you already are, it's just a matter of how you use that time. If you're going to post your ideas, actually articulating them would improve the discussion.
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Old 11th July 2018, 11:12 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Sure, but if you're going to spend some of your time posting you might as well actually convey the ideas that you are attempting to convey.
...I'm a cis dude. No matter how much time and effort I put into explaining to you what the fundamental issue is it would be impossible to do it any better than Jen Richards did in my cite.

So you've read it now. I don't expect you to agree with them. But do you at least understand the issue? This is a complex, involved, extremely nuanced issue. With the time I've got I really couldn't answer your genuine question with the respect it deserves. So I've cited someone who actually can. There isn't anything fundamentally wrong with that. This isn't an arguments forum. This isn't the war room. Its a place to discuss social issues and current events. You wouldn't understand the issue any better if I had attempted to explain it.

Quote:
Its not a matter of spending more time posting than you already are, it's just a matter of how you use that time. If you're going to post your ideas, actually articulating them would improve the discussion.
Originally Posted by Tony View Post
Not controversial, just stupid.
I think there are other people in this thread who need your advice a tad bit more than me.
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Old 11th July 2018, 11:52 PM   #171
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How do we know Scarlett Johansson isn't a trans man? Maybe she got typecast as a woman because she's such an outrageously gorgeous woman. In "Her" she plays an operating system, which tailors itself to whoever it's with.

So I seriously don't know the difference between a lesbian with a crewcut and a strap-on vs. a straight post-op trans man. I hope that doesn't make me hopelessly insensitive, because I don't want to be, and I know trans teenagers - at least I assume they're trans, I haven't ever given them a survey or inspected their genitals.

My hair guy has a guy's name, Jesus, but has long hair and wears a lot of makeup and likes to put together different looks. He's just him, you know? If he decides to be her I think he would let me know, but I'm not sure he's really decided. Is that an insensitive thing to say?

ETA: I'm not sure if he's a gay guy in drag or a trans woman, is what I'm saying.

Last edited by Minoosh; 11th July 2018 at 11:57 PM.
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Old 12th July 2018, 12:08 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
...I didn't change my mind. Not to be pedantic: but what I actually did was point out to you that you misunderstood which point I was pointing out was pedantic.
Not from what you posted, you said you hadn't understood my point.
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Old 12th July 2018, 12:16 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Oh, and if you think this is all about race, neither would it be appropriate for Hitler (5'8˝") to be portrayed by Danny DeVito (4'10") or Richard Kiel (7'2").

It doesn't ruin the German movie Look Who's Back that the actor playing Hitler is quite a bit taller than the actual Hitler was.

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Old 12th July 2018, 12:47 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
No, it would not.

A biopic demands authenticity; a white actor playing MLK doesn't get past this first hurdle. It would be no more appropriate than Yaphet Kotto playing Adolph Hitler. For a parody, or a comedy, OK, you can take more licence and actually use the gross miscasting as a comedic or plot device.

Oh, and if you think this is all about race, neither would it be appropriate for Hitler (5'8˝") to be portrayed by Danny DeVito (4'10") or Richard Kiel (7'2").


It could be financial suicide to cast as above for a biopic because you risk alienating a large part of your audience. One of the major reasons why "Stalin" (1992) was such a success is that the actor who portrayed him, Robert Duvall looks enough like him to pass muster. Similar build and only a 4" difference in height (5'10" v 5'6").
He has been played by and Indian though.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news...intentionally/

Quote:
https://twt-thumbs.washtimes.com/med...90e79e6a9b5465

...the film was intended as a respectable historical drama a la “Downfall” or “Gandhi.”

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Old 12th July 2018, 01:24 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
When has she been cast as a cis woman character?
What has this response got to do with the actual subject of the post that I had responded to?
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I'm not implying that at all. I'm saying that trans men should be given the opportunity to play the part of trans men. Which is something they don't currently get. Why should they be denied that opportunity?
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Old 12th July 2018, 01:59 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
Why don't trans folk play cis folk?

Because they don't get cast to play cis folk.

How do you know?
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Old 12th July 2018, 02:42 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by ThatGuy11200 View Post
He has been played by and Indian though.

I'm aware of the fact that it's a comedy, but it's a different kind of comedy. Parts of it deviate from the novel when it has the guy playing Hitler meet people in the street, Ali G/Borat/Brüno style:

Quote:
The film features unscripted vignettes of Oliver Masucci as Hitler interacting with ordinary Germans while in character, interspersed with scripted storyline sequences.
Look Who’s Back (Wikipedia)

And it works because he's a brilliant actor, no because he looks much like Hitler! (He doesn't.)
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Old 12th July 2018, 02:49 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
How do we know Scarlett Johansson isn't a trans man? Maybe she got typecast as a woman because she's such an outrageously gorgeous woman. In "Her" she plays an operating system, which tailors itself to whoever it's with.

So I seriously don't know the difference between a lesbian with a crewcut and a strap-on vs. a straight post-op trans man. I hope that doesn't make me hopelessly insensitive, because I don't want to be, and I know trans teenagers - at least I assume they're trans, I haven't ever given them a survey or inspected their genitals.

My hair guy has a guy's name, Jesus, but has long hair and wears a lot of makeup and likes to put together different looks. He's just him, you know? If he decides to be her I think he would let me know, but I'm not sure he's really decided. Is that an insensitive thing to say?

ETA: I'm not sure if he's a gay guy in drag or a trans woman, is what I'm saying.
I usually just go with whatever someone introduces themself as, if I'm not sure I will politely ask about any area that I'm unsure about if I think it's relevant to the circumstances otherwise it's none of my business.

If your barber refers to themself as he then I'd use "he" regardless of any biological organs he may or may not have as it makes no difference in those circumstances. Perhaps in some medical situations it may be necessary to determine what genitals they have and then it would be relevant and my business to know such a thing.

Take people as they identify themselves and I doubt you'll ever go far wrong.
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Old 12th July 2018, 03:04 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
...you've identified the problem.

Why don't trans folk play cis folk?

Because they don't get cast to play cis folk. There are practically no roles around for trans folk. ...snip...
There have been some more recent castings that have trans as cis. For instance one of the lead actors in Sense8 - Jamie Clayton identifies as a transwoman and played a cis woman in the series.

I think the advent of the new distribution models such as Netflix is helping accelerate such change as they are not marketing their productions via the older distribution system. Which means they can take "bigger" chances with their castings.

Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post

So when a multi-million dollar movie gets announced about the life of Jean Marie Gill and its one of the very rare opportunities for trans folk to get a leading role its *********** **** that they don't even get the chance to audition. Its not that its "insensitive." Its that its a *********** **** thing to do. If trans folk don't get cast as cis folk and if trans folk can't even get cast as trans folk then what opportunities are there out there for trans-folk-actors?
In the USA mainstream media distribution system there are still issues with racial discrimination, it is amazing that the Black Panther move is lauded as groundbreaking as it shows a mainstream USA blockbuster movie can do well with an almost all black cast. That that is notable in this day and age is to me mind blowing.

Cultural accetpance of homsexuality is still very patchy, we still have the problem that publicly known-to-be-gay actors still struggle to get lead non-gay character roles.

And of course never mind the more than astonishing fact that there is still deep gender discrimination in the USA mainstream media.

Times are - as ever - a changing.

But changes are slow and I think whilst it is lamentable - and I wish it wasn't so - genuine widespread cultural and societal acceptance of trans people is still a long way of.
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Old 12th July 2018, 05:53 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Cultural accetpance of homsexuality is still very patchy, we still have the problem that publicly known-to-be-gay actors still struggle to get lead non-gay character roles.
Nonsense. Tom Cruise gets leading roles all the time.
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Old 12th July 2018, 05:56 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Nonsense. Tom Cruise gets leading roles all the time.
How do you know he is homosexual?
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Old 12th July 2018, 06:14 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
How do you know he is homosexual?
It was a joke.
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Old 12th July 2018, 06:17 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
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Old 12th July 2018, 06:18 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I'm not implying that at all. I'm saying that trans men should be given the opportunity to play the part of trans men. Which is something they don't currently get. Why should they be denied that opportunity?
They're getting the same opportunity every other actor is getting. Nobody's denying them anything, except the way Tinseltown denies the dreams of most aspiring actors.
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Old 12th July 2018, 06:43 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Scarlotte Johansenn is getting crap for signing on to portray Tex Gill in the movie Rug and Tug. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8656640/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

Dante Tex Gill; https://newsinteractive.post-gazette...ante-tex-gill/


http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...acklash-2018-7


So some people object to Scarlett Johansson portraying Tex Gill instead of hiring a transgender actor to play the part. The other side takes the position that Ms. Johansson is an actor, so she can play any part she wants.

Seeing as how actors are paid to be something they're not, where is the line to be drawn? Personally I can't be bothered to get really upset about whitewashing or anything similar. I have written about how annoying it is to alter a book character to fit what Hollywood wants to see on the screen; the changes to Starship Troopers and Edge of Tomorrow (All You Need is Kill) are examples of my displeasure.

But to use an actor who does not exactly fit the profile of the subject matter is no big deal in my opinion. After watching Bridget Moynahan portray Susan Calvin in I, Robot and Valarie Bertinelli as Pancho Barnes, why would anyone care who plays an ugly old bat like Dante Gill?

Ranb
And heeere we go again.

Let me ask this: When Eddie Murphy played a fat man in Nutty Professor, was that an insult to fat people that they didn't hire an actual fat guy to play Eddie Murphy's character? Did that mean fat people were never gonna get hired to play any roles? (Sure, you can argue that in that case it makes sense, because the actor would need to look a lot like Eddie Murphy, so it doesn't seem weird when it's Eddie Murphy playing Buddy Love)

What about when Eddie Redmayne played Stephen Hawking in the Theory of Everything? Was that an insult because he's not really disabled? Should they have hired an actual disabled person to play his part?

What about Gary Sinise in Forest Gump? Should they have given the job to an actor with no legs?

What about every single actor who has played someone who has some sort of physical condition they don't actually possess?


They're called actors because that's what they do: They play characters that sometimes have nothing in common with their real selves, both psychologically and physically. That's what an actor does: They transform into a character. They're actors not in spite of not looking like the characters they portray, but because they don't look like the characters they portray.

Now, sometimes, a non-actor gets hired precisely because that's what the director wants. Story has it that Stanley Kubrick originally had an actor play Sargent Hartman, but Lee Ermey, an actual sergeant, walked in asking to be hired because he felt he was better fit for the role, and barked some orders at Kubrick, showcasing his talent. So he got hired. But this was Kubrick's his personal, artistic decision. He didn't hire him because he felt it was morally right to use an actual soldier to play Sargent Hartman. He did it because it was his personal artistic choice. And this choice doesn't mean that that's the rule for every single movie that requires a soldier role.

And in answer to the whole "trans men should be given the opportunity", that is a fallacy. No one is denying that trans men are not ever given the opportunity to play roles. But you decide to hire one non-trans person for one movie, and everyone loses their minds (insert Joker meme pic here) It's not like trans people are banned from ever being in movies. But at the same time, no director is in the obligation to hire a trans person if they feel that another actor is what they actually need. The decision from a particular director to hire a particular actor because they feel that actor is the one they want for their movie, is their own personal decision, and their right. If you care about thsi so bad, write a movie about a trans person and hire a trans person (Heck, write a movie about a non-trans person, and hire a trans person for the role for all I care)
My dad who works writing for Tv, once decided not to hire Antonio Estevez (One of Venezuela's best classical composers) to do the music for his movie, and instead opted for Francisco Cabrujas, who's also an amazing Tv composer. Estevez was outraged that the job wasn't given to him, considering that he had "much better qualifications" as a musician. But all of that was irrelevant. In the end, the owner of the project gets to decide who they want to hire. It's not like they're banning the artist from getting work in other projects with other people.

So, unless we're talking about Government passing a Legislation that prohibits trans people to act in movies, I would say that those whining about this find something better to complain about (And with this current administration, there's plenty) because this SJW Leftist ******** is nothing but that: Self righteous, holier-than-thou moralistic ********.
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Old 12th July 2018, 06:55 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
They're getting the same opportunity every other actor is getting. Nobody's denying them anything, except the way Tinseltown denies the dreams of most aspiring actors.
Given what we've been learning about Hollywood's systematic sexual abuse, I'd argue they're doing people a favor when they don't let them be part of it.
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Old 12th July 2018, 06:56 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
And heeere we go again.

Let me ask this: When Eddie Murphy played a fat man in Nutty Professor, was that an insult to fat people that they didn't hire an actual fat guy to play Eddie Murphy's character? (Sure, you can argue that in that case it makes sense, because the actor would need to look a lot like Eddie Murphy, so it doesn't seem weird when it's Eddie Murphy playing Buddy Love)
Why pick that Eddie Murphy fat suit movie? Why not Norbit or Meet the Klumps?
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Old 12th July 2018, 07:36 AM   #188
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Do people care that in "Wentworth" a trans woman is played by a man, vs. "Orange is the New Black" where a trans woman plays a trans woman? When the character Bea Smith starts to fall in love with a woman, she blurts in confusion, "I'm not gay." Her love interest says, "I don't care what you are." It's a moving scene and the point is that the labels don't matter all that much. Don't know how the series will play out now that
Bea has been murdered by The Freak.
Is it a stereotype that the trans characters are largely defined by their gender dysphoria issues? Plot developments force Maxine on Wentworth
who may be dead now, ending up with breast cancer, a double mastectomy and off her estsrogen
to lose treasured aspects of her female self. After transitioning she realizes her lover preferred her as a gay man vs. a straight post-op trans woman, which breaks her heart because she stays in love and he doesn't. Maybe that is true to the experience of trans people, or has the trans-woman-behind-bars just become a TV trope?

I believe trans actors should be auditioned for the parts of trans characters, but ultimately filmmakers owe it to their art to either cast the best actor to tell the story, or biggest actor they can find to boost the film's box office. IMO the character of Lucy Gambaro on "Wentworth" would make a good trans man even though she's actually a butch lesbian (is it bad for someone straight to identify a gay woman as "butch"?) She calls her gang "the boys," even though
she doesn't call them that anymore as The Freak cut out her tongue in Season 5
. Lea DeLaria would be good too, but she's not trans (or is she, and just accepted early in life an imperfect categorization as a somewhat masculine lesbian?)

The Freak herself is probably firmly in the lesbian camp, though her dominant feature is actually being a psychopath. Now that she's been
buried alive
in the Season 5 finale she may be written off the show as well.

I lean so heavily on "Wentworth" because of there's at least one Australian on the thread so the cultural references may be familiar, and it certainly has a wide variety of sexualities depicted. But now that I think about it, is it a problem that both these prison shows lean so heavily on lesbian, bi and trans themes? Are their experiences true to life or simply a TV trope feeding stereotypes of gay/bi/trans women? Come to think of it OITNB had its own resident psychopathic homosexual prison guard.

Is it really offensive of me to think of there being for the most part 2 kinds of people, XX and XY, but that gender identification is less binary?

What about Charlize Theron in "Monster," should they have cast a relatively unattractive lesbian instead of a gorgeous and apparently straight female supermodel?
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Old 12th July 2018, 08:11 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Why pick that Eddie Murphy fat suit movie? Why not Norbit or Meet the Klumps?
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Old 12th July 2018, 08:40 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Why did Eddie Murphy need to play the the fat woman in Norbit?
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Old 12th July 2018, 08:46 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by ThatGuy11200 View Post
He has been played by and Indian though.



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Old 12th July 2018, 08:55 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Why did Eddie Murphy need to play the the fat woman in Norbit?
FTFY.
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Old 12th July 2018, 09:45 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
There have been some more recent castings that have trans as cis. For instance one of the lead actors in Sense8 - Jamie Clayton identifies as a transwoman and played a cis woman in the series.

Don't forget Amazon's Transparent.
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Old 12th July 2018, 10:03 AM   #194
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I think this has already been mentioned, but wasn't the transman whom the film is about unmedicated? That's probably not the right term. What I mean is, he didn't have any surgery or take any hormones. He just dressed to pass.

So isn't it more realistic to have a cis woman play the part? I would think that most transmen working as actors today would at least be taking hormones (though I could be wrong).

Also, how is this any different than Hilary Swank playing Brandon Teena in Boys Don't Cry?
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Old 12th July 2018, 10:12 AM   #195
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Wouldn't trans actors actually have more roles to choose from than cis actors?

"You need a woman? That's great, I'm literally a woman!"

"You need a man? Lucky for you, I can also pass as a man!"

Or maybe that only works for Tilda Swinton.
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Old 12th July 2018, 10:15 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Don't forget Amazon's Transparent.
Transparent is another example of a cis actor playing a trans character, not the other way around.
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Old 12th July 2018, 11:40 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Also, how is this any different than Hilary Swank playing Brandon Teena in Boys Don't Cry?
It isn't. But now the radicals aren't OK with that either.

Outrage is a situational good. In order to use it to increase your standing, you have to be more outraged than other people, even if you have to make up **** to be outraged about.
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Old 12th July 2018, 11:43 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
One thing about "House of Cards," it wasn't afraid to go there and we got a
bisexual-leaning-heavily-on-homosexual vice president, then president
. Too bad in real life he turned about to be a freaking creepy rapist and borderline pedophile. ("ephebophile," if we want to be more specific, although he definitely got off on unequal power relationships). I was disappointed when Spacey, who plays such great creeps, turned out to actually be a creep. But then why not cast a creepy gay guy who occasionally passes for straight to play a creepy gay guy who occasionally passes for straight?

I like to see gender stood on its head, spun around a few times and land wherever it lands, because ultimately I suspect the labels are not necessarily all that important. But maybe I am trivializing conflicts I've never experienced.
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Old 12th July 2018, 12:08 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Why did Eddie Murphy need to play the the fat woman in Norbit?
Or the white guy in SNL?

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Old 12th July 2018, 03:17 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
There have been some more recent castings that have trans as cis. For instance one of the lead actors in Sense8 - Jamie Clayton identifies as a transwoman and played a cis woman in the series.
...wait what?

Are you talking about Nomi Marks?

Is this another one of your recollections?

Did you even bother to google this before you wrote it?

Nomi Marks was unashamably a trans gender woman. It is the central focus of her entire arc throughout the series. Her character was being harassed by a lesbian at pride because of her identity and she was defended by Amanita, who later became her wife. At one stage she wakes up in hospital and she is greeted by her mum who calls her by her dead name. We watch Nomi and her family struggle with her identity, we see the moment her father decides to finally accept her and defiantly defend her, and in the final episode (with the help of some "magic" cookies) her mother finally accepts her as well.

Sense8 was a miracle of a TV Show that celebrated diversity, inclusiveness and orgies. It also only lasted a couple of seasons before getting canceled mid-story. Its very much the exception, not the rule. Nomi and Amanita are probably one of my favourite couples in fiction. They are just awesome together with such beautiful chemistry and the scene where Amanitia defended Nomi made Nomi cry and it made me cry and it made most of the audience cry and really wouldn't have had the same impact if the character of Nomi was not played by someone who had not in reality lived through this. Its the perfect example of why having trans folk play trans folk makes such a big difference not only in "real life" but to the artistic success of a production.
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