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Old 10th July 2018, 01:09 AM   #521
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Free trade, in the truest meaning of the term, requires zero tariffs and zero state subsidies. This would be anathema to the EU - which can fairly be called a protectionist bloc - but less so to the USA or a post (real) Brexit UK.
You seem rather confused about what Brexit is - it is the UK leaving the EU, nothing more nothing less.

We were never asked did we want zero tariffs, zero state subsidies and so on. There are all issues separate from what we were asked to vote on.
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Old 10th July 2018, 01:12 AM   #522
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Originally Posted by Belgian thought View Post
Does May want Britain to be hated? Or is she so desperate to keep in power?

"Now PM, my name has been miscalled, most notably on Radio 4, but to show you that I am not, I hear there is a new job going. Now I have ruined the NHS, can I be of service? Or would you like me to resign?"

He reminds of this song https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1a_4CN4onA
May has been trying to become PM for all her political career, that is what she has made clear for decades, her policies, her actions have all been about that.

No one should ever think that she will do anything else bar attempt to remain PM as long as she can, I truly believe she cannot think outside of her own personal ambition.
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Old 10th July 2018, 01:45 AM   #523
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May has always wanted to be PM indeed and seemingly had little clue what she wanted to do when she got there. Worrying Bojo and DD both also want to be PM but they can't even seem to handle the workload of the being cabinet ministers, too much work and too boring. Can you imagine what disasters they'd be as PM?
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Old 10th July 2018, 03:02 AM   #524
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This is the fustercluck that you end up with when the most important political process since the Second World War is pursued by people who first last and only priorities are their personal enrichment and/or advancement.

If it does come to a leadership challenge I hope Davies' apparent sabotage of the process and Johnson's blatent treachery are remembered.
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Old 10th July 2018, 03:16 AM   #525
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
This is the fustercluck that you end up with when the most important political process since the Second World War is pursued by people who first last and only priorities are their personal enrichment and/or advancement..
IMO it's no better from the Labour side where the primary driver appears to be anti-capitalist dogma rather than personal enrichment and/or advancement.

IMO the biggest issue we have is the "democratic deficit" in Westminster whereby around 90% of the MPs belong to parties where the official Brexit position is supported by only 52% of those who voted in the referendum. For the Conservative Party it makes sense, more than 50% of their supporters voted Leave. It's the Labour Party turning its back on 60% of its supporters that has me scratching my head.

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
If it does come to a leadership challenge I hope Davies' apparent sabotage of the process and Johnson's blatent treachery are remembered.
For either of these two esteemed gentlemen, being PM would be its own punishment. IMO the country is ******* anyway, a no-deal Brexit is a near inevitability and it'll take a decade or more before we're in a position to implement a Canada (or Canada+) type trade deal.
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Old 10th July 2018, 03:24 AM   #526
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John McKendrick QC Attorney General of Anguilla on Boris resigning.
(commenting on a photo of himself with Boris)

"Meeting worst Foreign Secretary we’ve ever had amongst the destruction of Hurricane Irma in Anguilla.
Disinterested and out of his depth he cared nothing for our situation.
Good riddance"
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Old 10th July 2018, 03:29 AM   #527
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
John McKendrick QC Attorney General of Anguilla on Boris resigning.
(commenting on a photo of himself with Boris)

"Meeting worst Foreign Secretary we’ve ever had amongst the destruction of Hurricane Irma in Anguilla.
Disinterested and out of his depth he cared nothing for our situation.
Good riddance"
Harsh but fair.
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Old 10th July 2018, 04:19 AM   #528
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
It's the Labour Party turning its back on 60% of its supporters that has me scratching my head.
Seems pretty obvious to me. The questions to ask are these:
How many pro-Europe Labour voters will go Tory or abstain over this issue?
How many anti-EU Labour voters would go Tory or abstain if Labour came out as anti-Brexit?
How many Tories would go Labour in either case?
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Old 10th July 2018, 04:43 AM   #529
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Why won't Labour say: 'Vote Leave cheated, it broke the laws for the fair conduct of the Referendum set down by Parliament, and the result is not safe'?
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Old 10th July 2018, 04:58 AM   #530
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Why won't Labour say: 'Vote Leave cheated, it broke the laws for the fair conduct of the Referendum set down by Parliament, and the result is not safe'?
IMO because the Labour leadership see Brexit as the first step towards breaking capitalism's grip on the UK which will eventually lead to the establishing of a workers' paradise.
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Old 10th July 2018, 05:11 AM   #531
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Why won't Labour say: 'Vote Leave cheated, it broke the laws for the fair conduct of the Referendum set down by Parliament, and the result is not safe'?
Will pro-business Tories vote for Corbyn-Labour to stay in the EU? I don't see that happening, no matter how much they get **** on.

What about pro-Brexit Labour voters? Will they switch to the newly minted ****-business party? Hell, yes.

Will people say: 'Vote Leave psychologically manipulated me into voting for Brexit by spending more money'? Is that how people work in your experience?
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Old 10th July 2018, 05:15 AM   #532
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Why won't Labour say: 'Vote Leave cheated, it broke the laws for the fair conduct of the Referendum set down by Parliament, and the result is not safe'?
Because lots of their "traditional" supporters voted to leave.
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Old 10th July 2018, 05:16 AM   #533
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
Will pro-business Tories vote for Corbyn-Labour to stay in the EU? I don't see that happening, no matter how much they get **** on.
Corbyn-Labour is as enthusiastically Brexit as Rees-Mogg

Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
What about pro-Brexit Labour voters? Will they switch to the newly minted ****-business party? Hell, yes.?
Which party is this ?

Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
Will people say: 'Vote Leave psychologically manipulated me into voting for Brexit by spending more money'? Is that how people work in your experience?
No, but a minority may work out they were lied to.
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Old 10th July 2018, 06:07 AM   #534
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
IMO the biggest issue we have is the "democratic deficit" in Westminster whereby around 90% of the MPs belong to parties where the official Brexit position is supported by only 52% of those who voted in the referendum. For the Conservative Party it makes sense, more than 50% of their supporters voted Leave. It's the Labour Party turning its back on 60% of its supporters that has me scratching my head.
Of course, nothing is stopping people from splitting the parties into a Brexit-Tory party and a Bremain-Tory party, and ditto with Labour. In the 1930s, this happened with both Labour and Liberals over the issue whether to support the Tory-led "National" government and its austerity measures, and both parties survived. (It did result in a damnatio memoriae for Ramsay McDonald in Labour circles, though). Oh wait, there's that pesky FPTP issue; even AV would have been better in such a case.

Originally Posted by The Don View Post
For either of these two esteemed gentlemen, being PM would be its own punishment. IMO the country is ******* anyway, a no-deal Brexit is a near inevitability and it'll take a decade or more before we're in a position to implement a Canada (or Canada+) type trade deal.
May took 9 months from the referendum to write the article 50 letter. That was the time to devise a strategy and a goal. But now, another 15 months later, the cabinet still had to discuss to come to a consensus. And failed, witness the two resignations. That should tell everything about the utter foolishness of this venture and how the government handles it. Even if Barnier would draw up a draft agreement on his own, there would be no-one from the UK to sign it.
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Old 10th July 2018, 06:26 AM   #535
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Which party is this ?
I assume it's a reference to Boris' comment with regards to businesses view of Brexit negotiations.
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Old 10th July 2018, 09:06 AM   #536
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
IMO the biggest issue we have is the "democratic deficit" in Westminster whereby around 90% of the MPs belong to parties where the official Brexit position is supported by only 52% of those who voted in the referendum.
It's true that the two major parties both officially support Brexit. The Tories promised they would implement the result of the referendum, and promised it again in their last election manifesto. Labour also supported Brexit because that was the will of the majority of voters.

A more worrying "democratic deficit" is that while a majority of the public, and the two major parties support leaving, a large majority of MPs, from both the major parties, are remainers. That's the reason we are now moving towards this pathetic "Brexit in name only" policy that allows MPs to claim they implemented the will of the people while still remaining in all but name in the customs union and single market.

Hopefully the EU will say 'Non', to this attempted fudge and we will still be able to leave the EU in a clean way rather than becoming effectively a colony of the EU.
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Old 10th July 2018, 09:23 AM   #537
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
May took 9 months from the referendum to write the article 50 letter. That was the time to devise a strategy and a goal. But now, another 15 months later, the cabinet still had to discuss to come to a consensus. And failed, witness the two resignations. That should tell everything about the utter foolishness of this venture and how the government handles it. Even if Barnier would draw up a draft agreement on his own, there would be no-one from the UK to sign it.
But imagine if they had to work out the whole having cake vs eating it before article 50? They never would have gotten that in if they had to agree on what kind of separation they were actually seeking before they give themselves a deadline to seperate.

That is the kind of crazy talk, like planning where you are going before the start of a vacation.
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Old 10th July 2018, 09:42 AM   #538
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
It's true that the two major parties both officially support Brexit. The Tories promised they would implement the result of the referendum, and promised it again in their last election manifesto. Labour also supported Brexit because that was the will of the majority of voters.
...but a minority of Labour voters which is why it's so strange that they've adopted it as party policy.

Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
A more worrying "democratic deficit" is that while a majority of the public, and the two major parties support leaving, a large majority of MPs, from both the major parties, are remainers. That's the reason we are now moving towards this pathetic "Brexit in name only" policy that allows MPs to claim they implemented the will of the people while still remaining in all but name in the customs union and single market.
But that's exactly the type of Brexit that a number of prominent leaders of the Leave campaign, including BoJo, were promising

Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Hopefully the EU will say 'Non', to this attempted fudge and we will still be able to leave the EU in a clean way rather than becoming effectively a colony of the EU.
Straw much ?

Of course another alternative would be to avoid the political, diplomatic, personal and economic carnage that the "no-deal" Brexit you seem so desperate to have. I think you underestimate how messy what you think a clean break will be - but then again wilfully under-informed magical thinking is at the very core of Brexit

....well that and xenophobia
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Old 10th July 2018, 09:44 AM   #539
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Corbyn-Labour is as enthusiastically Brexit as Rees-Mogg
The question is: Why is Labour pro-Brexit? You say that it's ideology. I say that it's a perfectly rational way to maximize electoral chances.

Quote:
Which party is this ?
It's indeed a reference to Johnson.

Quote:
No, but a minority may work out they were lied to.
Faced with that realization, there are two possible reactions:
1)That does not concern me. I always supported Brexit for very good reasons. Now I'm on the winning side and getting what I want. Huzzah!
2)I was lied to and made a fool. The remain supporters were right all along. I'm such an idiot...

How many people are really going to go for door #2?
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Old 10th July 2018, 10:02 AM   #540
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
The question is: Why is Labour pro-Brexit? You say that it's ideology. I say that it's a perfectly rational way to maximize electoral chances.
You might think that - I disagree.

I think they will remain strong in areas like the Welsh valleys which voted strongly for Brexit.

I think they are very vulnerable in metropolitan areas which are strongly Remain.

In a highly unscientific poll, the dozen or so local Labour supporters I know in this rural middle-class areas (including myself and Mrs Don) will not be voting Labour in the foreseeable future until the policy changes.

A friend's daughter who is sufficiently active in the party to have headed up the Labour group at her local university has resigned from the party over Brexit.

I think Labour are chasing votes they will never get, working class people who have voted Tory for a decade or two because they won't vote Labour regardless of the Labour policy on Brexit but stand to lose a host of urban and/or young voters who are actively pro-EU.
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Old 10th July 2018, 12:47 PM   #541
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Polls show that the split of leave : remain intended voting hasn't changed much since the referendum. I think if there were a big swing towards remain, then the powers that be would already have arranged a second 'try again' referendum in the manner previously used in other EU countries when the population voted the 'wrong way' from the EU's point of view.

I think it's still (unfortunately) true that if the polls show a strong swing towards remain then a second referendum will quickly be arranged.

One reason the polling numbers haven't changed much (so far) is that some people who voted remain have now switched their allegiance to leave. Some don't like the perceived bullying from the EU in the Brexit negotiations and now want to stand up to the bullies. Some accept the democratic outcome and now wish to see that outcome implemented - they don't like the manoeuvring by the losing side in an attempt to overturn the result so they would switch their vote to the side that won the first referendum in a spirit of fair play.
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Old 10th July 2018, 01:44 PM   #542
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Two vice-chairs of the Conservative Party are quitting their posts in protest at Theresa May's Chequers Brexit compromise plan.

Maria Caulfield and Ben Bradley warned the PM her plan would not capitalise on the opportunities of Brexit.

"This policy will be bad for our country and bad for the party," Ms Caulfield said.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44785797
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Old 10th July 2018, 06:36 PM   #543
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
<snip>

That is the kind of crazy talk, like planning where you are going before the start of a vacation.

Where's the fun in that?

You just load the wife and kids in the car, drive to the airport, and get one-way tickets for everyone on the next flight out.

Think of the adventure. What could go wrong?.
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Old 11th July 2018, 01:34 AM   #544
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post

Think of the adventure. What could go wrong?.
Kandahar? I'm sure I heard someone talking about that. Must be a happening place. Let's go.
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Old 11th July 2018, 09:29 AM   #545
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Im seeing that Rees Mogg is trying to table an amendment that would make the Irish backstop position illegal by insisiting that NI must be part of the same.custpms area as GB
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Old 11th July 2018, 09:43 AM   #546
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Im seeing that Rees Mogg is trying to table an amendment that would make the Irish backstop position illegal by insisiting that NI must be part of the same.custpms area as GB
What a *********** charmer.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 11th July 2018 at 09:52 AM.
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Old 11th July 2018, 11:05 AM   #547
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Im seeing that Rees Mogg is trying to table an amendment that would make the Irish backstop position illegal by insisiting that NI must be part of the same.custpms area as GB
Would that not make Brexit itself illegal in all but the softest terms? Its already law that there can't be a border between Ireland and NI, so making the backstop illegal would only leave the option of the whole UK staying in the SM and CU.

Plus, that amendment could run into trouble with the GFA. Not sure about this, but there might be a conflict between making it illegal for NI to be outside the GB customs area and the stipulation that the people of NI can vote themselves into a united Ireland.
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Old 11th July 2018, 11:18 AM   #548
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
Would that not make Brexit itself illegal in all but the softest terms? Its already law that there can't be a border between Ireland and NI, so making the backstop illegal would only leave the option of the whole UK staying in the SM and CU.

Plus, that amendment could run into trouble with the GFA. Not sure about this, but there might be a conflict between making it illegal for NI to be outside the GB customs area and the stipulation that the people of NI can vote themselves into a united Ireland.
I think he'd argue that the wording around that law allows for the implementation of "Maxfac" whereby the EU would suspend all laws and regulations and allow the UK to export whatever it likes into the EU.whilst still not being part of any customs union
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Old 11th July 2018, 11:20 AM   #549
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
Would that not make Brexit itself illegal in all but the softest terms? Its already law that there can't be a border between Ireland and NI, so making the backstop illegal would only leave the option of the whole UK staying in the SM and CU.
That is the benefit of the no deal brexit, you don't need to make laws and stuff to get there.
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Old 11th July 2018, 05:09 PM   #550
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https://www.theguardian.com/culture/...-for-caribbean

I don't understand this, wasn't he pro-brexit?
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Old 12th July 2018, 12:13 AM   #551
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The Brexit blueprint will be published today:

Quote:
A long-awaited blueprint for the UK's relations with the EU will be published later, with ministers vowing to deliver a "practical and principled" Brexit.

The "comprehensive vision" for future trade and co-operation is aimed at ensuring global trade deals and no hard border in Northern Ireland.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44799469

My expectations are suitably "managed".
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Old 12th July 2018, 12:44 AM   #552
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I hear the flowchart was inspired by Escher's "Relativity".
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Old 12th July 2018, 02:02 AM   #553
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Mogg says he is going totable amendments to torpedo the plan and ensure the 'Will of the People' is enacted.
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Old 12th July 2018, 02:10 AM   #554
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Tweet by Priti Patel MP Retweeted BrexitCentral

"This is no longer an argument about whether Brexit was a good idea but is about democracy & standing by the democratic decision made by the people. The public want to know that their political leaders will stay true to the promise made to them that Brexit means Brexit."

So Brexit is a bad idea but we should do it anyway because ...
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Old 12th July 2018, 02:19 AM   #555
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Tweet by Priti Patel MP Retweeted BrexitCentral

"This is no longer an argument about whether Brexit was a good idea but is about democracy & standing by the democratic decision made by the people. The public want to know that their political leaders will stay true to the promise made to them that Brexit means Brexit."

So Brexit is a bad idea but we should do it anyway because ...
Whatever of course the highlighted means. A number of prominent Brexiteers assured us that we'd remain in the EEA and/or customs union.

But yes, it has now become a point of political principle and consequences be damned. The people voted (by a small margin in a non-binding referendum) to Leave and so we will leave even if we have to destroy the UK economy in the process.
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Old 12th July 2018, 02:21 AM   #556
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Tweet by Priti Patel MP Retweeted BrexitCentral

"This is no longer an argument about whether Brexit was a good idea but is about democracy & standing by the democratic decision made by the people. The public want to know that their political leaders will stay true to the promise made to them that Brexit means Brexit."

So Brexit is a bad idea but we should do it anyway because ...
Clearly the will of the people in 2019 or 2018 is unimportant and what they wanted in 2016 triumphs. On that logic perhaps May could insist on getting back the seats she lost between the
2015 and 2017 elections.
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Old 12th July 2018, 02:49 AM   #557
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
Clearly the will of the people in 2019 or 2018 is unimportant and what they wanted in 2016 triumphs. On that logic perhaps May could insist on getting back the seats she lost between the
2015 and 2017 elections.
Going back to my analogy about a family voting to move house.....

Yes promises were made about being able to move to a far nicer house, in a nicer place for less money - but they turned out to be lies/overoptimistic.

It's now clear that we have three options:
  • Stay put (if the house sale hasn't completed)
  • Rent (rather than own) the house next door for a wee bit more than we're currently paying an having no say how the place is decorated (soft Brexit)
  • Sleeping rough (hard Brexit)

It seems the Conservative Party is determined to see us sleeping in the park, ignoring the two other options because "moving house means moving house"
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Old 12th July 2018, 02:55 AM   #558
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Croatia. EU Member. Blue Passport.

think on.
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Old 12th July 2018, 03:17 AM   #559
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Mogg says he is going totable amendments to torpedo the plan and ensure the 'Will of the People' is enacted.
But that means he's ignoring the will of the Northern Irish people who wanted to stay in the EU.
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Old 12th July 2018, 03:22 AM   #560
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
But that means he's ignoring the will of the Northern Irish people who wanted to stay in the EU.
Voting to stay in the EU makes you a traitor to the cause and so you can be safely ignored.

In any case, Flanders and Swann have already covered this in the Song of Patriotic Prejudice.

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Quote:
The Irishman now out contempt is beneath
He sleeps in his boots and he lies through his teeth
He blows up policemen, or so I have heard
And blames it on Cromwell and William the Third!

The English are noble, the English are nice,
And worth any other at double the price
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