Criminal Charges Against Trump - Page 5

Garrison · 8th November 2020, 01:44 PM

Captain Swoop posted this in another thread:

Quote:

“The president is willing to concede if certain conditions are met,”
Says Rick Santorum on CNN

Smacks of "I'll go quietly if I get a pardon".

dirtywick · 8th November 2020, 01:54 PM

It would be incredibly disappointing if Biden were to pardon Trump as much as it would be if Biden were to abuse the power of the office in the same way Trump did. Trumps abuses of power were so egregious, and even worse purely selfish, that they’re unforgivable.

eerok · 8th November 2020, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by Garrison

Captain Swoop posted this in another thread:

Quote:

“The president is willing to concede if certain conditions are met,”
Says Rick Santorum on CNN

Smacks of "I'll go quietly if I get a pardon".

It's a lousy deal, because it doesn't matter if he goes quietly. I did hear a rumor that Trump might try locking himself into the White House bunker, though if he did, it'd only take one load of concrete to seal that deal.

smartcooky · 8th November 2020, 02:11 PM

Not bringing Trump to justice is the very essence of elite privilege... its how Jeff Epstein was initially slapped on the wrist with a wet tram ticked for his vile and egregious crimes.

shemp · 8th November 2020, 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by eerok

It's a lousy deal, because it doesn't matter if he goes quietly. I did hear a rumor that Trump might try locking himself into the White House bunker, though if he did, it'd only take one load of concrete to seal that deal.

Nah, you can drill through a single load. I'd say at least a dozen should keep him nice and safe in there.

sackett · 8th November 2020, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by johnny karate

I quoted the wrong person and apologize to you for the error.

I intended to quote shuttit.

Again, apologies.

Hey, I once made a mistake. Remember it well, though I was only 5 years old. So no apologies needed at all.

I think that no Trump analogues exist, actually. He's unique among American presidents. Poor old Harding wasn't even remotely that dishonest. Nixon was an alien, in some ways unfathomable. Reagan was as dishonest as Trump, but a smoother article even as he worked his destructions. Bush # 2? A sorry object but little worse than imbecilic -- and just now he's sounding about 35% statemanlike. (Those guys who died in his war? Well, they're still dead.) In Trumpff, we have a baffling phenomenon, crookeder than any big-city boss, dumber than a Teabagger, cruder than a Blackshirt capo, as lazy and ineffectual as any slob rich boy could ever manage to be. And finally, not even interesting.

A more pressing question is how n hell, why n hell, the Republicans ever came up with him. Better to dig into that dirt than into Donnie's sordid little dungheap.

Not that I want him and his family to get away with anything.

smartcooky · 8th November 2020, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by sackett

Hey, I once made a mistake. Remember it well, though I was only 5 years old. So no apologies needed at all.

I think that no Trump analogues exist, actually. He's unique among American presidents. Poor old Harding wasn't even remotely that dishonest. Nixon was an alien, in some ways unfathomable. Reagan was as dishonest as Trump, but a smoother article even as he worked his destructions. Bush # 2? A sorry object but little worse than imbecilic -- and just now he's sounding about 35% statemanlike. (Those guys who died in his war? Well, they're still dead.) In Trumpff, we have a baffling phenomenon, crookeder than any big-city boss, dumber than a Teabagger, cruder than a Blackshirt capo, as lazy and ineffectual as any slob rich boy could ever manage to be. And finally, not even interesting.

As a friend of mine on another forum said... Trump is "a poor man's idea of a rich man, a stupid man's idea of a smart man, and a weak man's idea of a strong man."

Chanakya · 8th November 2020, 11:51 PM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

As a friend of mine on another forum said... Trump is "a poor man's idea of a rich man, a stupid man's idea of a smart man, and a weak man's idea of a strong man."

Well said. That goes some way in explaining what is otherwise inexplicable, how this douchebag comes anywhere close to being as popular as he undoubtedly is (was?). (And such relief to be able to put that in the past tense, even if within parentheses and with a question mark.)

Dave Rogers · 9th November 2020, 02:12 AM

It seems to me that there are two possible outcomes here.

(1) Biden declines to pardon Trump. Trump spends the next four years stringing out the case by fair means or foul, and attracts as much attention as possible by posting on whatever social media platforms that will still have him by claiming that he's been pilloried and crucified after having been the greatest US President ever to have lived, and is now receiving worse treatment than anybody in history, worse than the most evillest murderer. His supporters believe every word and cause as much trouble as they can, and the Republican Party does all it can to block everything the Biden administration tries to do.

(2) Biden pardons Trump. Trump spends the next four years basically running his 2024 election campaign, and attracts as much attention as possible by posting on whatever social media platforms that will still have him by claiming that he's been pilloried and crucified after having been the greatest US President ever to have lived, and is now receiving worse treatment than anybody in history, worse than the most evillest murderer. His supporters believe every word and cause as much trouble as they can, and the Republican Party does all it can to block everything the Biden administration tries to do.

The only difference, it seems to me, is that in scenario 1 Trump doesn't get to run in 2024.

Dave

quadraginta · 9th November 2020, 05:46 AM

Originally Posted by shuttlt

I wasn't talking about whether he was criminal.

<snip>

Do you agree that he was a criminal?

Do you feel he should go untried and unpunished for misdeeds he committed before he was president, unrelated to any actions he took in office?

quadraginta · 9th November 2020, 05:50 AM

Originally Posted by shuttlt

If I remember rightly, the bail was paid by rich interests in the north who wanted to get on with fixing the country. People were torn, as today but decided that revenge, and treason charges weren't worth it. Which do you prefer, having a country or righteous retribution? Pick one.

As false dichotomies go that one ranks pretty high on the list of doozies.

I hadn't really considered them being built so completely of straw. Well done.

Tell me, do you believe all criminal sentences are solely righteous retribution, or could there be some intent of deterrence involved?

quadraginta · 9th November 2020, 05:55 AM

Originally Posted by johnny karate

There’s basically two options:

Allow presidents to commit crimes without consequence.

Hold presidents accountable for the crimes they commit.

And in fairness, we should let Republicans choose which option we move forward with.

The option they would choose would be;

Allow Repugnican presidents to commit crimes without consequence.

AND

Hold Democrat presidents accountable for the crimes they commit.

Duh.

Darat · 9th November 2020, 07:05 AM

Originally Posted by shuttlt

If I remember rightly, the bail was paid by rich interests in the north who wanted to get on with fixing the country. People were torn, as today but decided that revenge, and treason charges weren't worth it. Which do you prefer, having a country or righteous retribution? Pick one.

Personally I would prefer a country in which everyone is subject to the same laws.

eerok · 9th November 2020, 07:10 AM

Yeah, I'm becoming increasingly hostile to the idea of pardoning Trump. It really does send a poor message to the country. The privileged elite like Trump shouldn't be allowed to skate on such blatant contempt for the law. Him having been president only makes it worse.

angrysoba · 9th November 2020, 07:48 AM

Originally Posted by The Atheist

Which charge will be made first, and when?

I have no idea which will be the first one, but I'm picking no charges will be laid until about March 2021.

As with all these things, I doubt, very strongly, that Trump is going to go to jail for anything, particularly things like obstruction of justice or laundering money for the Russians.

Look, the famed lawyer Vincent Bugliosi wrote a book supposedly indicting George W Bush for murder:

Quote:

Famed Charles Manson prosecutor and three time #1 New York Times bestselling author Vincent Bugliosi has written the most powerful, explosive, and thought-provoking book of his storied career.
In The Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder, Bugliosi presents a tight, meticulously researched legal case that puts George W. Bush on trial in an American courtroom for the murder of nearly 4,000 American soldiers fighting the war in Iraq. Bugliosi sets forth the legal architecture and incontrovertible evidence that President Bush took this nation to war in Iraq under false pretenses—a war that has not only caused the deaths of American soldiers but also over 100,000 innocent Iraqi men, women, and children; cost the United States over one trillion dollars thus far with no end in sight; and alienated many American allies in the Western world.

As a prosecutor who is dedicated to seeking justice, Bugliosi, in his inimitable style, delivers a non-partisan argument, free from party lines and instead based upon hard facts and pure objectivity.

Did that happen? No, that did not happen.

Did Henry Kissinger go up on trial, let alone go to jail?

Did Bill Clinton go to jail for alleged rape and sexual assault? No, he did not. Yes, he was impeached, and we all said how ridiculous it was to impeach him for lying about having sex, but it doesn't seem as ridiculous to me now. I hadn't realized the background to the Monica Lewinsky story.

Obviously Richard Nixon was pardoned by Ford, so nothing there.

Darat · 9th November 2020, 08:43 AM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

As with all these things, I doubt, very strongly, that Trump is going to go to jail for anything, particularly things like obstruction of justice or laundering money for the Russians.

...snip....

I don’t think he will as we have made prosecuting the privileged for “white collar”/“process crimes” very difficult.

But I do think it is possible that he may face charges for tax evasion in NY.

ETA: Obviously Biden should not be attempting to “direct” federal investigators and prosecutors in investigating or prosecuting Trump but if such investigations happen as per the SOPs and evidence is found that indicates Trump should be prosecuted, prosecutors should know that they will be able to proceed without fear of political interference.

Brainster · 9th November 2020, 08:54 AM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

As with all these things, I doubt, very strongly, that Trump is going to go to jail for anything, particularly things like obstruction of justice or laundering money for the Russians.

Look, the famed lawyer Vincent Bugliosi wrote a book supposedly indicting George W Bush for murder:

Did that happen? No, that did not happen.

Did Henry Kissinger go up on trial, let alone go to jail?

Did Bill Clinton go to jail for alleged rape and sexual assault? No, he did not. Yes, he was impeached, and we all said how ridiculous it was to impeach him for lying about having sex, but it doesn't seem as ridiculous to me now. I hadn't realized the background to the Monica Lewinsky story.

Obviously Richard Nixon was pardoned by Ford, so nothing there.

And despite the constant calls to "lock her up," Hillary was never charged with anything. Politics is a lot like wrestling. Not that the matches are actually fixed, but the woofing that goes on before the fight is pretty much scripted. The Republican candidate is the second coming of Adolf, while the Democrat carries around a copy of Mao's little red book for inspiration.

JoeMorgue · 9th November 2020, 08:56 AM

Originally Posted by Brainster

And despite the constant calls to "lock her up," Hillary was never charged with anything. Politics is a lot like wrestling. Not that the matches are actually fixed, but the woofing that goes on before the fight is pretty much scripted. The Republican candidate is the second coming of Adolf, while the Democrat carries around a copy of Mao's little red book for inspiration.

Ah yes actually calls for the imprisonment and "2nd Amendment Solution" to your political rivals is just cutting a good promo. Truly Trump is the C.M. Punk's Pipebomb of our time.

Yeah no.

Darat · 9th November 2020, 09:07 AM

Originally Posted by Brainster

And despite the constant calls to "lock her up," Hillary was never charged with anything. Politics is a lot like wrestling. Not that the matches are actually fixed, but the woofing that goes on before the fight is pretty much scripted. The Republican candidate is the second coming of Adolf, while the Democrat carries around a copy of Mao's little red book for inspiration.

That has nothing to do with Trump not facing the consequences of any criminal acts he may have undertaken.

What people are saying is that for so-called “unity” or “mending” the country Trump has to be made immune from any consequences of any criminal act he has undertaken.

Darat · 9th November 2020, 09:09 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Ah yes actually calls for the imprisonment and "2nd Amendment Solution" to your political rivals is just cutting a good promo. Truly Trump is the C.M. Punk's Pipebomb of our time.

Yeah no.

It does seem strange that those on the “republican side” did not think Trump should have pardoned Clinton for any and all crimes in order to “unify” or “mend” the country yet now think Biden should pardon Trump in order to unify the country...

JoeMorgue · 9th November 2020, 09:19 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

It does seem strange that those on the “republican side” did not think Trump should have pardoned Clinton for any and all crimes in order to “unify” or “mend” the country yet now think Biden should pardon Trump in order to unify the country...

No not really.

You have to understand that the core idea that the are the "real Americans" who therefore should be the rightful rulers by simple fiat is so ingrained into the consciousness of the Right that it's not that they don't question it, they never even think about it in the first place.

To them a Democrat pointing out their hypocrisy is like your child asking you why they can't set your bedtime or a prisoner asking a guard "How come you get a gun and I don't?" The inherent power imbalance by simple universal decree is so obvious to them that the question is so nonsensical they can't answer it. It's like asking you why you get to tell your toaster how dark you want your toast.

Of course Hillary should be in prison but Trump shouldn't. Of course the Left should compromise with the Right but the Right shouldn't compromise with the Left. Their entire worldview would fall apart not even if these things were wrong but if they were even forced to put the question on the table for discussion.

Monza · 9th November 2020, 09:31 AM

A pardon for Trump would be a gross mistake. It would not actually result in healing the nation's divide nor would it right any injustice (what the pardon is supposed to be for).

The only way I would accept such a pardon, would be for Trump to first formally request one. He should have to lay out what crimes he requests a pardon for, and then issue a contrite apology.

ponderingturtle · 9th November 2020, 09:44 AM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

I predict no charges directly related to his conduct in office.

His taxes? It's hard to say. To be honest, I doubt it. I think if they had a solid case, they would have brought it already, or revealed the evidence already.

And all the campaign crimes Individual 1 is publicly known to have committed?

ponderingturtle · 9th November 2020, 09:50 AM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

We'll never know.

My opinion is that if there was blatant tax evasion, public support would have dwindled, and his Senate support would turn on him, just like it did on Nixon.

It would have to be pretty blatant though.

Not his base, tax evasion would be no more clearly criminal to them than Individual 1's campaign finance felonies.

azazal · 9th November 2020, 09:50 AM

Originally Posted by Monza

A pardon for Trump would be a gross mistake. It would not actually result in healing the nation's divide nor would it right any injustice (what the pardon is supposed to be for).

The only way I would accept such a pardon, would be for Trump to first formally request one. He should have to lay out what crimes he requests a pardon for, and then issue a contrite apology.

That's not a bad idea. Have Trump admit to all of his federal and state crimes, then give him a federal pardon. The look on his face when the state, county and city of New York arrest him because of his own confession would be priceless.

ponderingturtle · 9th November 2020, 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by eerok

That's true, and it offers some hope for tough justice. I think that, regardless of potential indictments, the inevitable lawsuits will hammer Trump into the dust, which is also justice.

Also the loans he can't pay back coming due, and covid decimating his hotel and resort businesses.

ponderingturtle · 9th November 2020, 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by eerok

Trump never represented the GOP. He was their populist useful idiot.

Which GOP, who is the party if not those registered as it, and he was their chosen representative.

eerok · 9th November 2020, 10:06 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Which GOP, who is the party if not those registered as it, and he was their chosen representative.

What I mean is that Trump didn't care about Republican policies, only personal power.

JoeMorgue · 9th November 2020, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by eerok

What I mean is that Trump didn't care about Republican policies, only personal power.

Problem is "Screw you I've got mine" is Republican policy, or at least Republican Philosophy.

Chanakya · 9th November 2020, 10:09 AM

~~Too big to fail?~~ Too fat to jail?

eerok · 9th November 2020, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by Chanakya

~~Too big to fail?~~ Too fat to jail?

Imagine if it comes to putting him in a strait jacket.

eerok · 9th November 2020, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Problem is "Screw you I've got mine" is Republican policy, or at least Republican Philosophy.

There's that, but Trump was always ignorant of politics, and appears to remain so.

ponderingturtle · 9th November 2020, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

It does seem strange that those on the “republican side” did not think Trump should have pardoned Clinton for any and all crimes in order to “unify” or “mend” the country yet now think Biden should pardon Trump in order to unify the country...

I am shocked to think that there could be any hypocrisy in the republican party!

ponderingturtle · 9th November 2020, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by eerok

What I mean is that Trump didn't care about Republican policies, only personal power.

He certainly represented a shift in stated policies of the republican party, but his broad support shows that the bulk of the party was fine with it.

eerok · 9th November 2020, 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

He certainly represented a shift in stated policies of the republican party, but his broad support shows that the bulk of the party was fine with it.

Trump was a rube-whisperer. Of course they were fine with it.

Chanakya · 9th November 2020, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by eerok

Trump was a rube-whisperer. Of course they were fine with it.

LOL. Rube whisperer. So stealing that one.

No Other · 9th November 2020, 10:38 AM

The last thing any sitting President wants is to try the previous Administration (in this case Trump) in a court of law. The Amazing Randi said to me, one time the Magic Castle, "never hand a trick to anyone because you lose control of the outcome." (paraphrase).

smartcooky · 9th November 2020, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by Brainster

And despite the constant calls to "lock her up," Hillary was never charged with anything..

That has nothing to do with politics. That is because there was never any evidence to charge her with, or at least none that a DA could take to a Grand Jury to have her indicted.

Upchurch · 9th November 2020, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by Brainster

And despite the constant calls to "lock her up," Hillary was never charged with anything. Politics is a lot like wrestling.

Are you suggesting that Hillary was never charged with anything because of political wrangling and not because the multiple Republican investigations never actually came up with something to charge her with?

blutoski · 9th November 2020, 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by smartcooky

As a friend of mine on another forum said... Trump is "a poor man's idea of a rich man, a stupid man's idea of a smart man, and a weak man's idea of a strong man."

I would have added, "A coward's idea of a brave man."

Overheard on the bus the other day: "Bucking popular opinion and calling POWs losers - now that takes *real* courage."

8th November 2020, 01:44 PM	#161
Garrison Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: UK Posts: 5,913	Captain Swoop posted this in another thread: Quote: “The president is willing to concede if certain conditions are met,” Says Rick Santorum on CNN Smacks of "I'll go quietly if I get a pardon".
	__________________ So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/ And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX

8th November 2020, 01:54 PM	#162
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 4,237	It would be incredibly disappointing if Biden were to pardon Trump as much as it would be if Biden were to abuse the power of the office in the same way Trump did. Trumps abuses of power were so egregious, and even worse purely selfish, that they’re unforgivable.
dirtywick Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 4,237

8th November 2020, 02:03 PM	#163
eerok Quixoticist Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: ON Canada Posts: 5,378	Originally Posted by Garrison Captain Swoop posted this in another thread: Quote: “The president is willing to concede if certain conditions are met,” Says Rick Santorum on CNN Smacks of "I'll go quietly if I get a pardon". It's a lousy deal, because it doesn't matter if he goes quietly. I did hear a rumor that Trump might try locking himself into the White House bunker, though if he did, it'd only take one load of concrete to seal that deal.
	__________________ "Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future." - Oscar Wilde

8th November 2020, 02:11 PM	#164
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 23,089	Not bringing Trump to justice is the very essence of elite privilege... its how Jeff Epstein was initially slapped on the wrist with a wet tram ticked for his vile and egregious crimes.
	__________________ What is Woke? It is a term that means "awakened to the needs of others". It means to be well-informed, thoughtful, compassionate, humble and kind. Woke people are keen to make the world a better, fairer place for everyone, But, unfortunately, it has also become a pejorative used by racists, homophobes and misogynists on the political right, to describe people who possess a fully functional moral compass.

8th November 2020, 02:15 PM	#165
shemp a flimsy character...perfidious and despised Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Out back preparing the bunker for the next Civil War Posts: 53,736	Originally Posted by eerok It's a lousy deal, because it doesn't matter if he goes quietly. I did hear a rumor that Trump might try locking himself into the White House bunker, though if he did, it'd only take one load of concrete to seal that deal. Nah, you can drill through a single load. I'd say at least a dozen should keep him nice and safe in there.
	__________________ "Yes, I'll be around for many more centuries. You, meanwhile, will have long ago been turned into value dog food, despite your express wishes to the contrary." -- JihadJane

8th November 2020, 02:39 PM	#166
sackett Philosopher Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 8,304	Originally Posted by johnny karate I quoted the wrong person and apologize to you for the error. I intended to quote shuttit. Again, apologies. Hey, I once made a mistake. Remember it well, though I was only 5 years old. So no apologies needed at all. I think that no Trump analogues exist, actually. He's unique among American presidents. Poor old Harding wasn't even remotely that dishonest. Nixon was an alien, in some ways unfathomable. Reagan was as dishonest as Trump, but a smoother article even as he worked his destructions. Bush # 2? A sorry object but little worse than imbecilic -- and just now he's sounding about 35% statemanlike. (Those guys who died in his war? Well, they're still dead.) In Trumpff, we have a baffling phenomenon, crookeder than any big-city boss, dumber than a Teabagger, cruder than a Blackshirt capo, as lazy and ineffectual as any slob rich boy could ever manage to be. And finally, not even interesting. A more pressing question is how n hell, why n hell, the Republicans ever came up with him. Better to dig into that dirt than into Donnie's sordid little dungheap. Not that I want him and his family to get away with anything.
	__________________ If you would learn a man's character, give him authority. If you would ruin a man's character, let him seize power.

8th November 2020, 03:36 PM	#167
smartcooky Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Nelson, New Zealand Posts: 23,089	Originally Posted by sackett Hey, I once made a mistake. Remember it well, though I was only 5 years old. So no apologies needed at all. I think that no Trump analogues exist, actually. He's unique among American presidents. Poor old Harding wasn't even remotely that dishonest. Nixon was an alien, in some ways unfathomable. Reagan was as dishonest as Trump, but a smoother article even as he worked his destructions. Bush # 2? A sorry object but little worse than imbecilic -- and just now he's sounding about 35% statemanlike. (Those guys who died in his war? Well, they're still dead.) In Trumpff, we have a baffling phenomenon, crookeder than any big-city boss, dumber than a Teabagger, cruder than a Blackshirt capo, as lazy and ineffectual as any slob rich boy could ever manage to be. And finally, not even interesting. As a friend of mine on another forum said... Trump is "a poor man's idea of a rich man, a stupid man's idea of a smart man, and a weak man's idea of a strong man."
	__________________ What is Woke? It is a term that means "awakened to the needs of others". It means to be well-informed, thoughtful, compassionate, humble and kind. Woke people are keen to make the world a better, fairer place for everyone, But, unfortunately, it has also become a pejorative used by racists, homophobes and misogynists on the political right, to describe people who possess a fully functional moral compass.

8th November 2020, 11:51 PM	#168
Chanakya Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 4,075	Originally Posted by smartcooky As a friend of mine on another forum said... Trump is "a poor man's idea of a rich man, a stupid man's idea of a smart man, and a weak man's idea of a strong man." Well said. That goes some way in explaining what is otherwise inexplicable, how this douchebag comes anywhere close to being as popular as he undoubtedly is (was?). (And such relief to be able to put that in the past tense, even if within parentheses and with a question mark.)
Chanakya Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 4,075

9th November 2020, 02:12 AM	#169
Dave Rogers Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD Posts: 33,715	It seems to me that there are two possible outcomes here. (1) Biden declines to pardon Trump. Trump spends the next four years stringing out the case by fair means or foul, and attracts as much attention as possible by posting on whatever social media platforms that will still have him by claiming that he's been pilloried and crucified after having been the greatest US President ever to have lived, and is now receiving worse treatment than anybody in history, worse than the most evillest murderer. His supporters believe every word and cause as much trouble as they can, and the Republican Party does all it can to block everything the Biden administration tries to do. (2) Biden pardons Trump. Trump spends the next four years basically running his 2024 election campaign, and attracts as much attention as possible by posting on whatever social media platforms that will still have him by claiming that he's been pilloried and crucified after having been the greatest US President ever to have lived, and is now receiving worse treatment than anybody in history, worse than the most evillest murderer. His supporters believe every word and cause as much trouble as they can, and the Republican Party does all it can to block everything the Biden administration tries to do. The only difference, it seems to me, is that in scenario 1 Trump doesn't get to run in 2024. Dave
	__________________ There is truth and there are lies. - President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021

9th November 2020, 05:46 AM	#170
quadraginta Becoming Beth Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of) Posts: 26,621	Originally Posted by shuttlt I wasn't talking about whether he was criminal. <snip> Do you agree that he was a criminal? Do you feel he should go untried and unpunished for misdeeds he committed before he was president, unrelated to any actions he took in office?
	__________________ "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."

9th November 2020, 05:50 AM	#171
quadraginta Becoming Beth Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of) Posts: 26,621	Originally Posted by shuttlt If I remember rightly, the bail was paid by rich interests in the north who wanted to get on with fixing the country. People were torn, as today but decided that revenge, and treason charges weren't worth it. Which do you prefer, having a country or righteous retribution? Pick one. As false dichotomies go that one ranks pretty high on the list of doozies. I hadn't really considered them being built so completely of straw. Well done. Tell me, do you believe all criminal sentences are solely righteous retribution, or could there be some intent of deterrence involved?
	__________________ "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation." Last edited by quadraginta; 9th November 2020 at 05:52 AM.

9th November 2020, 05:55 AM	#172
quadraginta Becoming Beth Join Date: May 2009 Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of) Posts: 26,621	Originally Posted by johnny karate There’s basically two options: Allow presidents to commit crimes without consequence. Hold presidents accountable for the crimes they commit. And in fairness, we should let Republicans choose which option we move forward with. The option they would choose would be; Allow Repugnican presidents to commit crimes without consequence. AND Hold Democrat presidents accountable for the crimes they commit. Duh.
	__________________ "A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."

9th November 2020, 07:05 AM	#173
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 108,048	Originally Posted by shuttlt If I remember rightly, the bail was paid by rich interests in the north who wanted to get on with fixing the country. People were torn, as today but decided that revenge, and treason charges weren't worth it. Which do you prefer, having a country or righteous retribution? Pick one. Personally I would prefer a country in which everyone is subject to the same laws.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

9th November 2020, 07:10 AM	#174
eerok Quixoticist Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: ON Canada Posts: 5,378	Yeah, I'm becoming increasingly hostile to the idea of pardoning Trump. It really does send a poor message to the country. The privileged elite like Trump shouldn't be allowed to skate on such blatant contempt for the law. Him having been president only makes it worse.
	__________________ "Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future." - Oscar Wilde

9th November 2020, 07:48 AM	#175
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 33,995	Originally Posted by The Atheist Which charge will be made first, and when? I have no idea which will be the first one, but I'm picking no charges will be laid until about March 2021. As with all these things, I doubt, very strongly, that Trump is going to go to jail for anything, particularly things like obstruction of justice or laundering money for the Russians. Look, the famed lawyer Vincent Bugliosi wrote a book supposedly indicting George W Bush for murder: Quote: Famed Charles Manson prosecutor and three time #1 New York Times bestselling author Vincent Bugliosi has written the most powerful, explosive, and thought-provoking book of his storied career. In The Prosecution of George W. Bush for Murder, Bugliosi presents a tight, meticulously researched legal case that puts George W. Bush on trial in an American courtroom for the murder of nearly 4,000 American soldiers fighting the war in Iraq. Bugliosi sets forth the legal architecture and incontrovertible evidence that President Bush took this nation to war in Iraq under false pretenses—a war that has not only caused the deaths of American soldiers but also over 100,000 innocent Iraqi men, women, and children; cost the United States over one trillion dollars thus far with no end in sight; and alienated many American allies in the Western world. As a prosecutor who is dedicated to seeking justice, Bugliosi, in his inimitable style, delivers a non-partisan argument, free from party lines and instead based upon hard facts and pure objectivity. Did that happen? No, that did not happen. Did Henry Kissinger go up on trial, let alone go to jail? Did Bill Clinton go to jail for alleged rape and sexual assault? No, he did not. Yes, he was impeached, and we all said how ridiculous it was to impeach him for lying about having sex, but it doesn't seem as ridiculous to me now. I hadn't realized the background to the Monica Lewinsky story. Obviously Richard Nixon was pardoned by Ford, so nothing there.
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9th November 2020, 08:43 AM	#176
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 108,048	Originally Posted by angrysoba As with all these things, I doubt, very strongly, that Trump is going to go to jail for anything, particularly things like obstruction of justice or laundering money for the Russians. ...snip.... I don’t think he will as we have made prosecuting the privileged for “white collar”/“process crimes” very difficult. But I do think it is possible that he may face charges for tax evasion in NY. ETA: Obviously Biden should not be attempting to “direct” federal investigators and prosecutors in investigating or prosecuting Trump but if such investigations happen as per the SOPs and evidence is found that indicates Trump should be prosecuted, prosecutors should know that they will be able to proceed without fear of political interference.
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9th November 2020, 08:54 AM	#177
Brainster Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 19,688	Originally Posted by angrysoba As with all these things, I doubt, very strongly, that Trump is going to go to jail for anything, particularly things like obstruction of justice or laundering money for the Russians. Look, the famed lawyer Vincent Bugliosi wrote a book supposedly indicting George W Bush for murder: Did that happen? No, that did not happen. Did Henry Kissinger go up on trial, let alone go to jail? Did Bill Clinton go to jail for alleged rape and sexual assault? No, he did not. Yes, he was impeached, and we all said how ridiculous it was to impeach him for lying about having sex, but it doesn't seem as ridiculous to me now. I hadn't realized the background to the Monica Lewinsky story. Obviously Richard Nixon was pardoned by Ford, so nothing there. And despite the constant calls to "lock her up," Hillary was never charged with anything. Politics is a lot like wrestling. Not that the matches are actually fixed, but the woofing that goes on before the fight is pretty much scripted. The Republican candidate is the second coming of Adolf, while the Democrat carries around a copy of Mao's little red book for inspiration.
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9th November 2020, 08:56 AM	#178
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 43,011	Originally Posted by Brainster And despite the constant calls to "lock her up," Hillary was never charged with anything. Politics is a lot like wrestling. Not that the matches are actually fixed, but the woofing that goes on before the fight is pretty much scripted. The Republican candidate is the second coming of Adolf, while the Democrat carries around a copy of Mao's little red book for inspiration. Ah yes actually calls for the imprisonment and "2nd Amendment Solution" to your political rivals is just cutting a good promo. Truly Trump is the C.M. Punk's Pipebomb of our time. Yeah no.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

9th November 2020, 09:07 AM	#179
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 108,048	Originally Posted by Brainster And despite the constant calls to "lock her up," Hillary was never charged with anything. Politics is a lot like wrestling. Not that the matches are actually fixed, but the woofing that goes on before the fight is pretty much scripted. The Republican candidate is the second coming of Adolf, while the Democrat carries around a copy of Mao's little red book for inspiration. That has nothing to do with Trump not facing the consequences of any criminal acts he may have undertaken. What people are saying is that for so-called “unity” or “mending” the country Trump has to be made immune from any consequences of any criminal act he has undertaken.
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9th November 2020, 09:09 AM	#180
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 108,048	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue Ah yes actually calls for the imprisonment and "2nd Amendment Solution" to your political rivals is just cutting a good promo. Truly Trump is the C.M. Punk's Pipebomb of our time. Yeah no. It does seem strange that those on the “republican side” did not think Trump should have pardoned Clinton for any and all crimes in order to “unify” or “mend” the country yet now think Biden should pardon Trump in order to unify the country...
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9th November 2020, 09:19 AM	#181
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 43,011	Originally Posted by Darat It does seem strange that those on the “republican side” did not think Trump should have pardoned Clinton for any and all crimes in order to “unify” or “mend” the country yet now think Biden should pardon Trump in order to unify the country... No not really. You have to understand that the core idea that the are the "real Americans" who therefore should be the rightful rulers by simple fiat is so ingrained into the consciousness of the Right that it's not that they don't question it, they never even think about it in the first place. To them a Democrat pointing out their hypocrisy is like your child asking you why they can't set your bedtime or a prisoner asking a guard "How come you get a gun and I don't?" The inherent power imbalance by simple universal decree is so obvious to them that the question is so nonsensical they can't answer it. It's like asking you why you get to tell your toaster how dark you want your toast. Of course Hillary should be in prison but Trump shouldn't. Of course the Left should compromise with the Right but the Right shouldn't compromise with the Left. Their entire worldview would fall apart not even if these things were wrong but if they were even forced to put the question on the table for discussion.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

9th November 2020, 09:31 AM	#182
Monza Alta Viro Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,307	A pardon for Trump would be a gross mistake. It would not actually result in healing the nation's divide nor would it right any injustice (what the pardon is supposed to be for). The only way I would accept such a pardon, would be for Trump to first formally request one. He should have to lay out what crimes he requests a pardon for, and then issue a contrite apology.
Monza Alta Viro Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 2,307

9th November 2020, 09:44 AM	#183
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 52,943	Originally Posted by Meadmaker I predict no charges directly related to his conduct in office. His taxes? It's hard to say. To be honest, I doubt it. I think if they had a solid case, they would have brought it already, or revealed the evidence already. And all the campaign crimes Individual 1 is publicly known to have committed?
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9th November 2020, 09:50 AM	#184
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 52,943	Originally Posted by Meadmaker We'll never know. My opinion is that if there was blatant tax evasion, public support would have dwindled, and his Senate support would turn on him, just like it did on Nixon. It would have to be pretty blatant though. Not his base, tax evasion would be no more clearly criminal to them than Individual 1's campaign finance felonies.
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9th November 2020, 09:50 AM	#185
azazal Ninja Wave: Techno Ninja Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 455	Originally Posted by Monza A pardon for Trump would be a gross mistake. It would not actually result in healing the nation's divide nor would it right any injustice (what the pardon is supposed to be for). The only way I would accept such a pardon, would be for Trump to first formally request one. He should have to lay out what crimes he requests a pardon for, and then issue a contrite apology. That's not a bad idea. Have Trump admit to all of his federal and state crimes, then give him a federal pardon. The look on his face when the state, county and city of New York arrest him because of his own confession would be priceless.
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9th November 2020, 09:56 AM	#186
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 52,943	Originally Posted by eerok That's true, and it offers some hope for tough justice. I think that, regardless of potential indictments, the inevitable lawsuits will hammer Trump into the dust, which is also justice. Also the loans he can't pay back coming due, and covid decimating his hotel and resort businesses.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

9th November 2020, 10:01 AM	#187
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 52,943	Originally Posted by eerok Trump never represented the GOP. He was their populist useful idiot. Which GOP, who is the party if not those registered as it, and he was their chosen representative.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

9th November 2020, 10:06 AM	#188
eerok Quixoticist Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: ON Canada Posts: 5,378	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle Which GOP, who is the party if not those registered as it, and he was their chosen representative. What I mean is that Trump didn't care about Republican policies, only personal power.
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9th November 2020, 10:08 AM	#189
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 43,011	Originally Posted by eerok What I mean is that Trump didn't care about Republican policies, only personal power. Problem is "Screw you I've got mine" is Republican policy, or at least Republican Philosophy.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

9th November 2020, 10:09 AM	#190
Chanakya Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 4,075	~~Too big to fail?~~ Too fat to jail?
Chanakya Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 4,075

9th November 2020, 10:11 AM	#191
eerok Quixoticist Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: ON Canada Posts: 5,378	Originally Posted by Chanakya ~~Too big to fail?~~ Too fat to jail? Imagine if it comes to putting him in a strait jacket.
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9th November 2020, 10:15 AM	#192
eerok Quixoticist Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: ON Canada Posts: 5,378	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue Problem is "Screw you I've got mine" is Republican policy, or at least Republican Philosophy. There's that, but Trump was always ignorant of politics, and appears to remain so.
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9th November 2020, 10:19 AM	#193
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 52,943	Originally Posted by Darat It does seem strange that those on the “republican side” did not think Trump should have pardoned Clinton for any and all crimes in order to “unify” or “mend” the country yet now think Biden should pardon Trump in order to unify the country... I am shocked to think that there could be any hypocrisy in the republican party!
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9th November 2020, 10:21 AM	#194
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 52,943	Originally Posted by eerok What I mean is that Trump didn't care about Republican policies, only personal power. He certainly represented a shift in stated policies of the republican party, but his broad support shows that the bulk of the party was fine with it.
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9th November 2020, 10:23 AM	#195
eerok Quixoticist Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: ON Canada Posts: 5,378	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle He certainly represented a shift in stated policies of the republican party, but his broad support shows that the bulk of the party was fine with it. Trump was a rube-whisperer. Of course they were fine with it.
	__________________ "Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future." - Oscar Wilde