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Tags donald trump , Nazism charges

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Old 2nd July 2020, 08:26 PM   #1
Segnosaur
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Trump and the use of Nazi/fascist imagery

We have recently seen a few cases where Trump and/or his campaign has started to use imagery related to Nazi Germany or 20th centry Facism in general.

Now, admittedly, mistakes can be made... Someone may not know the origins of a phrase, or one image looks bad just by coincidince. But the sheer number of these types of incidences is certainly.... curious. Some people might think they are "dog whistles"... deliberatly meant to drum up support among the far right. Others might think that they aren't deliberate, but mistakes where Trump wanted to keep his racism hidden but it ended up showing anyways.

Any that I've missed?

--------------------

During the 2015 primaries, Trump tweets a picture of an American flag, with the white house and a group of soldiers in the background. However, the solders were actually wearing uniforms based on those used in Nazi Germany.

CNN

During the 2016 campaign, Trump quoted Mussolini. "It is better to live one day as a lion than 100 years as a sheep."

Politico

During the 2016 election, Trump tweeted a picture of Clinton, a bunch of cash, and a yellow star of David (the same symbol used to identify Jews in nazi concentration camps), which was widely thought to suggest "Clinton is being bribed by Jews". The campaign tried to explain it as being a "Sherrif's star", but the image had previously been posted in a racist forum.

CNN

Trump starts to adopt the phrase "America First". Now, that particular slogan had been in use for well over a centry (long before World War 1); however, it had been adopted by anti-interventionalists/pro-Nazi sympathizers during world war 2.

The Guardian

Trump campaign placed facebook ads waring people against 'far left' groups like Antifa. However, the message was accompanied by a red triangle, which was the same symbole used in Nazi concentration camps to denote political prisoners

Forbes

Trump tweets a video where a Trump supporter is clearly heard shouting "White Power".

CNN

Trump's campaign started to produce a shirt with an 'America First' theme. The problem is, the logo tht was used (An eagle, wings spread, head facing right, and perched on a circle) was the same one used by Nazi germany.

Forbes
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Old 2nd July 2020, 08:49 PM   #2
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A bunch of left leaning people call Trump a Nazi.

Good sleuthing.
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Old 2nd July 2020, 08:51 PM   #3
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It always seemed to me that the people adopting Nazi language and iconography think of them as some kind of spell that gives them The Power of the FuhrerTM.
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Old 2nd July 2020, 08:57 PM   #4
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Maybe somebody told Trump that black is slimming. It is, but it only goes so far.
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Old 3rd July 2020, 03:33 AM   #5
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I think most of it come from the self loathing little **** Steve Miller. Trump's not smart enough to even know where to go to find Nazi and fascist quotes. Miller, like all Trump supporters is disloyal to his nation but he's the "brains" of the operation.
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Old 3rd July 2020, 05:42 AM   #6
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"Once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, three times is enemy action."

That's a good rule to follow in such things. There's enough in common between national symbols (flags, eagles, stars, shapes, **** like that), that one or two similarities can probably happen by accident. I'm reminded of a talk I attended by the lead intellectual property officer for Target, the year they tried to move into the Canadian market, where he talked about how hard it was to find images for trademarks that hadn't already been used by someone else previously.

But when it keeps happening? And it seems they only "accidentally" copy the Nazis. When was the last time they "accidentally" copied a communist or socialist theme? Or any other identifiable political position, or country? They're not "accidentally" copying the Canadian or Mexican flags. Nope, it always seems to be the Nazis.
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Old 3rd July 2020, 05:47 AM   #7
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Eagles and the USA I can understand and most stylised versions will end up with sharing similarities.

The rest if it ain't on purpose they are truly incompetent, but that is not always a dichotomy.
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Old 3rd July 2020, 06:16 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Eagles and the USA I can understand and most stylised versions will end up with sharing similarities.

The rest if it ain't on purpose they are truly incompetent, but that is not always a dichotomy.


Alas, that's always a possibility with this crowd. Any normal President, after being called out on a couple of accidental homages to Hitler, would stop and say, "Are we absolutely sure this new image doesn't look anything at all like Nazi iconography? Can we get someone to at least flip through the Big Book of Nazi Flags, just to be sure?"

But Trump? He's exactly the type who would buy Steve Miller's "Opps! I Nazied again!" excuses without question.
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Old 3rd July 2020, 06:39 AM   #9
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Here's a side-by-side comparison of the latest imagery, for people to judge for themselves:

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Old 3rd July 2020, 07:11 AM   #10
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Quote:
On Thursday, June 18th, Facebook removed ads that the Trump re-election campaign began running the day earlier, citing the company’s policy against promoting organized hate. At the center of the ads and of the controversy was an inverted red triangle. The same symbol was used by Nazis to mark political prisoners–Communists, Freemasons, people who had helped Jews–in concentration camps.

If your reaction is, “sometimes a cigar is just a cigar,” consider also that the first sentence of the ads contained 14 words, and a total of 88 ads were purchased by the campaign to be run on Facebook.

Fourteen words, 14, symbolizes a popular alt-right slogan, “We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children.” Eighty-eight, 88, stands for Heil Hitler—H is the 8th letter of the alphabet. Together, 14-88 are often used to signal allegiance to an alt-right group and the ideas of White Supremacy.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/b...have-in-common
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Old 3rd July 2020, 07:17 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Trump's campaign started to produce a shirt with an 'America First' theme. The problem is, the logo tht was used (An eagle, wings spread, head facing right, and perched on a circle) was the same one used by Nazi germany.
Reminescent, not the same.

Still, the sheer number of those is hard to explain away, unless one wants to make the case that it's just that Trump tends to retweet and repeat what he hears from his mob, who are dominated by far-right nationalists.
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Old 3rd July 2020, 07:21 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
I think most of it come from the self loathing little **** Steve Miller. Trump's not smart enough to even know where to go to find Nazi and fascist quotes. Miller, like all Trump supporters is disloyal to his nation but he's the "brains" of the operation.
Possible that Miller is behind most of it. (Although some of it predates him joining the Trump campaign.)

Although I suspect that that some of Trump's spawn might have something to do with it too. (I can see Trump Jr. or Eric surfing through various neo-nazi sites as pornography, stumbling across something and saying "Dad... here's something you can use!")
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Old 3rd July 2020, 07:28 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
But when it keeps happening? And it seems they only "accidentally" copy the Nazis. When was the last time they "accidentally" copied a communist or socialist theme? Or any other identifiable political position, or country? They're not "accidentally" copying the Canadian or Mexican flags. Nope, it always seems to be the Nazis.
Well, to be fair, they did sort of borrow some imagery once from Russia, but I suspect in that case it really was unintentional.

From: BBC
...the seal that was flashed on screen as Mr Trump walked on stage had several calculated tweaks...the eagle that appeared on screen this week was not the eagle hand-picked by the Founding Fathers. Instead, the two-headed bird briefly projected next to Mr Trump bears a striking resemblance to the eagle featured on the Russian flag.

Quote:
But Trump? He's exactly the type who would buy Steve Miller's "Opps! I Nazied again!" excuses without question.
Wouldn't he be better off to say "I did Nazi that coming".
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Old 3rd July 2020, 07:40 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Eagles and the USA I can understand and most stylised versions will end up with sharing similarities.
Some similarities? Maybe. But I can think of a dozen variations they could have made... show the eagle from the side...have the head pointed right, or down, or have it below the wings...have the talons holding something or outstretched instead of perched, or have it perched on a branch instead of a circle containing a symbol... show something in the eagle's beak, or show it with the mouth open... show the wings at a different angle.

If you do a google-search on "eagle logo" you can find a lot of good examples of 'eagle imagery', which would not be mistaken in any way for the eagle used by Nazi germany.

Quote:
The rest if it ain't on purpose they are truly incompetent, but that is not always a dichotomy.
If it is a case of incompetence, you wonder why we haven't heard more about people being fired over them.

And if its incompetence, you have to wonder how those mistakes can slip in... totally random, or is it a case where the people involved had a preference for far-right imagery and it kind of just filtered in.
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Old 3rd July 2020, 07:40 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Well, to be fair, they did sort of borrow some imagery once from Russia, but I suspect in that case it really was unintentional.

From: BBC
...the seal that was flashed on screen as Mr Trump walked on stage had several calculated tweaks...the eagle that appeared on screen this week was not the eagle hand-picked by the Founding Fathers. Instead, the two-headed bird briefly projected next to Mr Trump bears a striking resemblance to the eagle featured on the Russian flag.

In that case, the imagery was absolutely deliberate, but it was created by someone was was opposed to the Trump fiasco. It's use in this context was attributed to incompetence on the part of an intern/flunky.

And of course, they haven't done this exact thing again, have they? As the rule I stated indicates, this one time it probably was a mistake.


Quote:
Wouldn't he be better off to say "I did Nazi that coming".

I considered that joke, but decided an original one that riffs on a popular pop song was better. Comedy is hard!
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Old 3rd July 2020, 07:41 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Here's a side-by-side comparison of the latest imagery, for people to judge for themselves:

https://i.imgur.com/bBQFklD.jpg
As much as I loathe Trump, there are only so many ways to depict an eagle in an emblem. Anything other than wings spread is going to look silly, and it can only face one of two directions. (I don't I've ever seen any bird depicted in national symbolism or heraldry that was looking straight ahead.) And American symbols are full of eagles--it's not the most original of bird choices for emblems.
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Old 3rd July 2020, 07:52 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Busta Capp View Post
A bunch of left leaning people call Trump a Nazi.

Good sleuthing.
These are not 'left people calling Trump a Nazi'... this is Trump and the campaign somehow using nazi/fascist imagery.

Are you denying that Trump showed a picture of people in nazi-styled uniforms? Because the source of the images has been tracked down and yes, they were based on german uniforms.

Are you denying Trump quoted Mussolini? Because the source of that quote is pretty well established, as is Trump's use of it.

Are you denying that the Nazis used red triangles and yellow stars in concentration camps?
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Old 3rd July 2020, 07:55 AM   #18
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Some of the stuff such as the numbers (88) look like they may reflect supporters’ beliefs. No doubt Trump has quite a few Nazi supporters. It’s almost too “clever” for Trump to try to signal to neo-Nazis like that.

US iconography frequency looks pretty fascist though, partly because of the use of Roman symbols and iconography.

But look at the Lincoln memorial. He’s resting his hands on fasces. Coins have fasces on them. Go into the government buildings - fasces everywhere. It shouldn’t be too surprising that a fasces got elected president.
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Old 3rd July 2020, 08:18 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
As much as I loathe Trump, there are only so many ways to depict an eagle in an emblem. Anything other than wings spread is going to look silly
Wings can be spread in angles other than straight out to the left and right... They can either be held higher above the head or bent downwards.
Quote:
and it can only face one of two directions.
Then make it face in the non-nazi direction. Or put the head below the level of the wings. (Frankly I think that makes it look much more bad-ass.)
Quote:
(I don't I've ever seen any bird depicted in national symbolism or heraldry that was looking straight ahead.)
This is not a national symbol. Its a campaign logo. Thus they have more flexibility.
Quote:
And American symbols are full of eagles--it's not the most original of bird choices for emblems.
Yes they are.

I did a google search and found a good half dozen eagle-based logos/symbols. The Trump campaign could have copied any one of them and people wouldn't have thought anything of it. Yet instead they happen to design a logo that matches the nazi eagle.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg eagle_logos.jpg (31.1 KB, 22 views)
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Old 3rd July 2020, 08:20 AM   #20
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Well, a feces DID get elected president.

For certain values of "elected."
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Old 3rd July 2020, 08:38 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Quote:
Wouldn't he be better off to say "I did Nazi that coming".
I considered that joke, but decided an original one that riffs on a popular pop song was better. Comedy is hard!
Yeah, my joke was rather cheap.

Admittedly I didn't quite get your joke at first. I didn't tie it to the song, and kept trying to picture "Oops.. I nazid again" coming from a child who just got caught by his mom making a mess.
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Old 3rd July 2020, 08:39 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
As much as I loathe Trump, there are only so many ways to depict an eagle in an emblem. Anything other than wings spread is going to look silly, and it can only face one of two directions. (I don't I've ever seen any bird depicted in national symbolism or heraldry that was looking straight ahead.) And American symbols are full of eagles--it's not the most original of bird choices for emblems.
While true that there are really only 2 ways that you can depict the head (looking left or right from the viewer's perspective and for the purpose of this I'll use left or right facing from the viewer's perspective), there are almost no depictions of a right facing eagle in heraldry (where most of these symbols derive) outside of those used by Nazi Germany. The USMC crest of the eagle with the globe and anchor, the eagle on the seal, etc all face left. This is a holdover from the days when a coat of arms would be on an actual shield and having the beastie face left meant it would appear to be looking forward when on the left arm. The current US usages of a left facing eagle are either on badges designed to be worn on the right arm or as mirror to the more conventionally faced one for lapel wear on military uniforms.

Several German states used eagles as symbols pre-Weimar (Prussia most prominently), but they all face left. The Nazi eagle (I'm calling it that because the eagle's head faced left only during this period). The Nazi decision to have it face the opposite way could be seen as a break with the past.


Essentially, while it could be argued that the resemblance to Nazi insignia is innocent coincidence, I'd be more inclined to believe that it wasn't, given the overwhelming use of left facing eagles in traditional heraldry and modern trademark imagry.
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Old 3rd July 2020, 08:47 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Busta Capp View Post
A bunch of left leaning people call Trump a Nazi.

Good sleuthing.
“Sleuthing” is apparently now defined as “looking at things that Trump tweets”.
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Old 3rd July 2020, 08:50 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Then make it face in the non-nazi direction. Or put the head below the level of the wings. (Frankly I think that makes it look much more bad-ass.)
I don't know if it's still the case, but for a while there was a tradition in American emblems that the eagle faced one direction for peace, another for war. The Nazis do not hold ownership of an eagle's face's direction.
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Old 3rd July 2020, 09:38 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
I did a google search and found a good half dozen eagle-based logos/symbols. The Trump campaign could have copied any one of them and people wouldn't have thought anything of it. Yet instead they happen to design a logo that matches the nazi eagle.

Another thing I noted that in most of the US examples, it's clearly a bald headed eagle. In this new one, though, the eagle isn't quite so clearly the US bald headed eagle, and might even be a completely different type of eagle, a change that again, only makes it look more like the Nazi eagle.
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Old 3rd July 2020, 10:04 AM   #26
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It's clearly a reference to the Nazi eagle. I don't think we can blame Stephen Miller though; the GOP has been rife with cryptofascists for decades.
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Old 3rd July 2020, 10:04 AM   #27
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The Trump Organization is selling a "nostalgic" Trump baseball ... for $88.

Quote:
Donald Trump’s umbrella company, The Trump Organisation, is being hectored and denounced on social media for selling a “nostalgic” baseball for $88 – an unusual price tag that uses a number often referenced on the far right to signal sympathy with Adolf Hitler.

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Old 3rd July 2020, 10:15 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
The Trump Organization is selling a "nostalgic" Trump baseball ... for $88.




https://i.imgur.com/422OSuv.jpg?1
The coincidences do keep piling up.

It's getting harder to remain skeptic.
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Old 3rd July 2020, 10:25 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by ginjawarrior View Post
Beat me to it on the 14-88 part. As potential re-election approaches, the GOP/Trump administration are increasingly moving from dog whistles to overt facism/Nazism.
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Old 3rd July 2020, 10:37 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by ginjawarrior View Post
I am smelling ******** here:

Quote:
If your reaction is, “sometimes a cigar is just a cigar,” consider also that the first sentence of the ads contained 14 words, and a total of 88 ads were purchased by the campaign to be run on Facebook.

Fourteen words, 14, symbolizes a popular alt-right slogan, “We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children.” Eighty-eight, 88, stands for Heil Hitler—H is the 8th letter of the alphabet. Together, 14-88 are often used to signal allegiance to an alt-right group and the ideas of White Supremacy.
So I did a little digging. Salon covers the 1488 bit here:

Quote:
Media Matters identified 88 variations. "88" is a common white supremacist code for "Heil Hitler," because the "H" is the eighth letter of the alphabet. A Facebook spokesperson did not immediately confirm to Salon that the campaign had run 88 different ads/posts.

The ads also began with the same sentence: "Dangerous MOBS of far-left groups are running through our streets and causing absolute mayhem. They are DESTROYING our cities and rioting — it's absolute madness."

That sentence contains 14 words, or the same number of words as a popular white supremacist slogan. White supremacists routinely use the two numbers together as a code: 1488.
Let's start with the 14 words, shall we? It's 14 if "far-left" counts as one word. I'm not sure myself, but all the inbred neo-Nazis out there have undoubtedly been boning up on their grammar and syntax so they can tell when Trump is trying to signal them as compared to ordinary messages.

As for the 88 ads Salon says it's 88 variations of the ad, not 88 ads, which is a slightly different thing, but actually makes a bit more sense (nobody buys 88 ads on Facebook, they buy impressions). But if we go back to the original Media Matters article:

Quote:
On June 17, the campaign ran 88 ads on the Facebook pages for Trump, Pence, and Team Trump with an inverted red triangle. The red triangle was used for political prisoners in Nazi concentration camps.
The link under 88 ads goes to this page, which just contains three images of Trump ads with the inverted red and black triangle.

So while it's possible that there might be 88 variations of the ad, it's unproven at best. If you look at the first MM page I linked there are 14 variations shown but--oops--none of those actually have the inverted red triangle! Some have a stop sign, some a slow sign, some a yield sign with an exclamation point inside of it.

Note also that the Salon image of the prisoners wearing the inverted red triangle is black and white, but the triangle has been helpfully colorized by someone who has just taken his first lesson in Photoshop.
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Old 3rd July 2020, 10:40 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
As much as I loathe Trump, there are only so many ways to depict an eagle in an emblem. Anything other than wings spread is going to look silly, and it can only face one of two directions. (I don't I've ever seen any bird depicted in national symbolism or heraldry that was looking straight ahead.) And American symbols are full of eagles--it's not the most original of bird choices for emblems.
In Trump's case a strutting peacock would be more appropriate. Or maybe a loon.
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Old 3rd July 2020, 10:43 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
The Trump Organization is selling a "nostalgic" Trump baseball ... for $88
Never mind the possibility of the price being a neo-nazi reference....

Why would anyone buy something like that, at that price? I don't think its autographed by Trump. And I don't think Trump has ever been associated with baseball in any way. And its not like a hat or shirt you can wear to proudly show your support for dear leader.
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Old 3rd July 2020, 10:45 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
Beat me to it on the 14-88 part. As potential re-election approaches, the GOP/Trump administration are increasingly moving from dog whistles to overt facism/Nazism.
You have to wonder why. After all, even they must realize that they already have the racist vote locked up, and need to pick up at least a few non-racist votes to win.
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Old 3rd July 2020, 10:53 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Quote:
Then make it face in the non-nazi direction. Or put the head below the level of the wings. (Frankly I think that makes it look much more bad-ass.)
I don't know if it's still the case, but for a while there was a tradition in American emblems that the eagle faced one direction for peace, another for war. The Nazis do not hold ownership of an eagle's face's direction.
First of all, even if its true that other emblems in the past had an eagle's head facing right (I'd have to see evidence of the whole peace/war direction claim)... the fact is, Nazis ruin everything. Regardless of what was done before, once the Nazis decided "This eagle looks good facing right" then that should make any non-nazi wary of right-facing eagles.

Put it this way... the swastika had been a symbol used in several cultures over the centuries. But if you decide to get a swastika tattoo today, you will rightly be assumed to be a racist.

Secondly, as I have pointed out before.... even if (for whatever reason) the eagle just HAD to be pointed to the right... there were several other things they could have done to distance themselves from the nazi design... change the angle of the wings, have the eagle holding something in their beak and/or talons, place the head lower in the image.
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Old 3rd July 2020, 11:01 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
You have to wonder why. After all, even they must realize that they already have the racist vote locked up, and need to pick up at least a few non-racist votes to win.
Good job, you're almost at the point where you are practicing real skepticism instead of indulging in confirmation bias. Keep going!
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Old 3rd July 2020, 11:10 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
You have to wonder why. After all, even they must realize that they already have the racist vote locked up, and need to pick up at least a few non-racist votes to win.
I don't know. The only somehwat logical, and very disconcerting, explanation I can come up with is that they're thinking forward, past the 2020 election: they want to fire up the far-right to pave way for the next Trump to come along, be it some unqualified, obviously incompetent clown that no one takes seriously, like Hitler or Trump, or an adult of some kind. If they can further polarize the country, so much the better. Makes it easier for democracy to crumble.
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Old 3rd July 2020, 11:16 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
The Trump Organization is selling a "nostalgic" Trump baseball ... for $88.

https://i.imgur.com/422OSuv.jpg?1

It's like the "Are we the baddies?" sketch.

"Oh, you haven't been listening to Democrat propaganda? Of course they're going to say we're the Nazis!"

"But they didn't get to choose our pricing schemes!"
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Old 3rd July 2020, 11:16 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Good job, you're almost at the point where you are practicing real skepticism instead of indulging in confirmation bias. Keep going!
It must be so difficult for apologists now that Republicans have moved from dog whistles to air raid sirens.

The agenda of course remains abhorrent, but I respect the effort.
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Old 3rd July 2020, 11:22 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
I don't know. The only somehwat logical, and very disconcerting, explanation I can come up with is that they're thinking forward, past the 2020 election: they want to fire up the far-right to pave way for the next Trump to come along, be it some unqualified, obviously incompetent clown that no one takes seriously, like Hitler or Trump, or an adult of some kind. If they can further polarize the country, so much the better. Makes it easier for democracy to crumble.


I think it's simpler than that. I think they don't really realize that they "need to pick up at least a few non-racist votes to win".

For years now these guys have been acting in a manner that suggests it's not all an act - they really believe their own propaganda. And we've seen Trump tweeting about "THE SILENT MAJORITY!" They really do believe that, when the chips are down, all the white people will fall in line behind a racist candidate. So they're just making sure we know which one that is.

Look at Trump's Tulsa rally - he really did believe there would be a hundred thousand people there clamoring to hear his voice. They really are just that delusional.
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Old 3rd July 2020, 11:24 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
In Trump's case a strutting peacock would be more appropriate. Or maybe a loon.
How about a booby?
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