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Tags 2016 elections , 2020 elections , donald trump , presidential candidates , republicans

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Old 26th April 2020, 11:54 AM   #521
thaiboxerken
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If it's such a valid point....
Thank you for agreeing that it's a valid point.
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Old 26th April 2020, 11:57 AM   #522
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I prefer to convince people by using facts rather than exaggerations. Indeed, one reason I despise Trump is that he can't stick to the truth.

Maybe you don't give a damn one way or the other and think that all that matters is getting the bastard out of office by whatever means necessary (in terms of persuading voters -- I'm presuming violence is a step too far). I disagree.

It's got nothing to do with whether Trump deserves to be treated fairly. I'm not even talking about memes, which are generally beneath contempt. This is a skeptics' forum. We should try to be reasonably accurate. We should avoid strawmen, especially in a case such as this where Trump's own words really are damning enough that hyperbole adds very little.
I do not and have never advocated violence to remove Trump nor violating the law. Down that path lies madness. However, anything else, regardless of how dishonest, immoral or unethical are justified in removing Trump. If the bleach memes create a new truth which impacts swing voters in swing states, then they should continue. They go low you go high gets you a filthy Russian whore in the Whitehouse.

When you wrestle with a pig you might get dirty but if you do it right, you'll also get bacon.
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Old 26th April 2020, 11:57 AM   #523
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Thank you for agreeing that it's a valid point.
Wow. Quoting only the antecedent of a conditional statement and pretending that it indicates agreement is pretty damned lame. Do you think Hendrix was a moron for believing 6 was 9?
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Old 26th April 2020, 12:01 PM   #524
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
I do not and have never advocated violence to remove Trump nor violating the law. Down that path lies madness.
I definitely wasn't suggesting that you advocated violence. The parenthetical was just to make clear that I didn't think you were doing so.

Quote:
However, anything else, regardless of how dishonest, immoral or unethical are justified in removing Trump. If the bleach memes create a new truth which impacts swing voters in swing states, then they should continue. They go low you go high gets you a filthy Russian whore in the Whitehouse.

When you wrestle with a pig you might get dirty but if you do it right, you'll also get bacon.
We've had this disagreement before. No need to go in the same circles again. Let me sum up a few of my addled notions and then I'll bow out of this dispute.

I tend to think that not giving enough respect for truth is a large part of what got us into this mess. I don't think it'll get us out of this mess. Perhaps it could remove Trump from office, but if the guy who gets in did so because an effective lie is better than the truth, many of the same problems will remain.

One who gets into office by profiting from lies is unlikely to turn to honesty.
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Old 26th April 2020, 12:01 PM   #525
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More accurately:
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
A lot of anti-trump supportsentiment seems to boil down to wild flailing, propped up by fans blowing hot air.
Besides the idea that taking disinfectant internally is plausible, so plausible that many of his listeners actually tried it.

And let's not forget:
United States
Coronavirus Cases:
976,403
Deaths:
54,965
Recovered:
118,633

But, oh yes, one death, 55,000 deaths, what's the difference? 4 deaths are tragedy, 55,000 are a statistic, amIright?
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Old 26th April 2020, 12:24 PM   #526
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
More accurately:


Besides the idea that taking disinfectant internally is plausible, so plausible that many of his listeners actually tried it.

And let's not forget:
United States
Coronavirus Cases:
976,403
Deaths:
54,965
Recovered:
118,633

But, oh yes, one death, 55,000 deaths, what's the difference? 4 deaths are tragedy, 55,000 are a statistic, amIright?
But what about those e-mails?!?!?!
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Old 26th April 2020, 12:50 PM   #527
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
More accurately:


Besides the idea that taking disinfectant internally is plausible, so plausible that many of his listeners actually tried it.
You're equivocating. Q.E.D.
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Old 26th April 2020, 12:53 PM   #528
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You're equivocating. Q.E.D.
Did I equivocate 55,000 times?
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Old 26th April 2020, 12:57 PM   #529
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Did I equivocate 55,000 times?
Did any of those fifty-five thousand people inject disinfectant because Trump told them to?
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Old 26th April 2020, 01:03 PM   #530
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Did any of those fifty-five thousand people inject disinfectant because Trump told them to?
No, because they are dead, and Trump delayed addressing the problem, downplayed the problem, and inspired his followers to downplay the problem, for 2 months as it spread like wildfire across the nation.

Enough said. I have my own life to lead. As a last request, please ask Trump to fiddle The Devil Went Down to Georgia for me.
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Old 26th April 2020, 02:12 PM   #531
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I definitely wasn't suggesting that you advocated violence. The parenthetical was just to make clear that I didn't think you were doing so.



We've had this disagreement before. No need to go in the same circles again. Let me sum up a few of my addled notions and then I'll bow out of this dispute.

I tend to think that not giving enough respect for truth is a large part of what got us into this mess. I don't think it'll get us out of this mess. Perhaps it could remove Trump from office, but if the guy who gets in did so because an effective lie is better than the truth, many of the same problems will remain.

One who gets into office by profiting from lies is unlikely to turn to honesty.
I don't think Biden needs to or should go low. There's enough PAC money out there that he can keeps his hands clean while anti Trump PACs do the dirty work.
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Old 26th April 2020, 02:14 PM   #532
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
No, he didn't. He said that we should waste government resources to look into it. His comments were likely to cause stupid people to self-medicate with disinfectant. Both those things are bad enough.

He did not literally tell anyone to inject disinfectant. He didn't even tell researchers to inject anyone, but to investigate if disinfectant could somehow be used internally.

His actual behavior is stupid enough. I don't see any reason to exaggerate it. In your favor, you corrected someone who said he told people to drink bleach.
That. There is no need to misrepresent what Trump says or does. What he actually says and does is bad enough. Misrepresentation just gives credence to his claims of Fake News.
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Old 26th April 2020, 05:03 PM   #533
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
We're only on the amuse bouche right now but the meal is certainly looking rather tasty so far.
I never heard that phrase in my entire life, then ran across two references in two days.
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Old 26th April 2020, 05:10 PM   #534
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Did any of those fifty-five thousand people inject disinfectant because Trump told them to?
Did any of those 55,000 die because the Trump administration is incompetent?

Yes, they did.
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Old 26th April 2020, 05:19 PM   #535
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
That. There is no need to misrepresent what Trump says or does. What he actually says and does is bad enough. Misrepresentation just gives credence to his claims of Fake News.
We’re quibbling about the exact nature of the staggeringly stupid and dangerous thing Trump said. It’s not like Craig4 manufactured something out of whole cloth.

As much as being accurate is important, being overly pedantic about certain details plays more into the “Fake News” ploy than anything because it sends people down rabbit holes of semantic debate until the actual issue is no longer the issue.
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Old 26th April 2020, 05:22 PM   #536
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
A lot of anti-trump sentiment seems to boil down to wild flailing, propped up by fans blowing hot air.
No, it boils down to thousands of Americans dying and our economy being destroyed.
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Old 26th April 2020, 05:22 PM   #537
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Originally Posted by theprestige
Did any of those fifty-five thousand people inject disinfectant because Trump told them to?
I'm sure this will just get me more "whataboutobama" and other deflections, but I'll bite: sadly the answer is yes:

https://twitter.com/VaughnHillyard/s...53997005664257

eta
And yes, quibbling over exactly what Trump said is just wasted time. I heard the recording. It was outrageous and unfathomably stupid. What exactly he said is irrelevant.
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Last edited by Safe-Keeper; 26th April 2020 at 05:24 PM.
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Old 26th April 2020, 05:43 PM   #538
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
I'm sure this will just get me more "whataboutobama" and other deflections, but I'll bite: sadly the answer is yes:

https://twitter.com/VaughnHillyard/s...53997005664257

eta
And yes, quibbling over exactly what Trump said is just wasted time. I heard the recording. It was outrageous and unfathomably stupid. What exactly he said is irrelevant.
I think most conservatives have moved on from “What about Obama?” to “I don’t care if people die”.

Which actually brings us full circle.
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Old 26th April 2020, 06:33 PM   #539
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
We’re quibbling about the exact nature of the staggeringly stupid and dangerous thing Trump said. It’s not like Craig4 manufactured something out of whole cloth.
I wasn't thinking of Craig4's post at all, only agreeing that we don't need to misrepresent what Trump says or does.


Quote:
As much as being accurate is important, being overly pedantic about certain details plays more into the “Fake News” ploy than anything because it sends people down rabbit holes of semantic debate until the actual issue is no longer the issue.
I disagree. If we stick to what is actually said, instead of hyperbole/misrepresentations, there would be no reason to be pedantic. No one would need to point out that that's not what Trump actually said.
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Old 27th April 2020, 02:39 AM   #540
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
That. There is no need to misrepresent what Trump says or does. What he actually says and does is bad enough. Misrepresentation just gives credence to his claims of Fake News.
I agree with this in principle. In practice, it doesn't matter, as the opposing force does not adhere to facts or reality what so ever. There's nobody to convince using facts and evidence, because those who are susceptible to it are already against Trump.
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Old 27th April 2020, 07:23 AM   #541
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I wasn't thinking of Craig4's post at all, only agreeing that we don't need to misrepresent what Trump says or does.

I disagree. If we stick to what is actually said, instead of hyperbole/misrepresentations, there would be no reason to be pedantic. No one would need to point out that that's not what Trump actually said.
Fair enough.
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Old 27th April 2020, 09:47 AM   #542
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I agree with this in principle. In practice, it doesn't matter, as the opposing force does not adhere to facts or reality what so ever. There's nobody to convince using facts and evidence, because those who are susceptible to it are already against Trump.
There's some point to that, but the problem is that Trump supporters tend to care about truth in some circumstances but not others.

When Trump lies, they shrug it off as something that every politician does.

When someone exaggerates what Trump said, whether media or a forum poster, we hear complaints that this isn't what he said and your bias is showing. Trump didn't say (all) Mexicans are rapists! (Which is true, he didn't. He said that Mexico was "sending" its rapists across the border illegally.) You exaggerated what he said, so I may reject every criticism you offer or conclude that you are fake news.

I don't think that reason will convince a Trump supporter at this late date, but I also don't think that his opponents do themselves any favors by exaggerating what Trump says when what he says is just stupid and offensive enough. Take away the defense that anti-Trumpers are liars by sticking closely to the undeniable facts.
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Old 27th April 2020, 01:38 PM   #543
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
I agree with this in principle. In practice, it doesn't matter, as the opposing force does not adhere to facts or reality what so ever. There's nobody to convince using facts and evidence, because those who are susceptible to it are already against Trump.
It does matter.
See phiwum's post below.

Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
There's some point to that, but the problem is that Trump supporters tend to care about truth in some circumstances but not others.

When Trump lies, they shrug it off as something that every politician does.

When someone exaggerates what Trump said, whether media or a forum poster, we hear complaints that this isn't what he said and your bias is showing. Trump didn't say (all) Mexicans are rapists! (Which is true, he didn't. He said that Mexico was "sending" its rapists across the border illegally.) You exaggerated what he said, so I may reject every criticism you offer or conclude that you are fake news.

I don't think that reason will convince a Trump supporter at this late date, but I also don't think that his opponents do themselves any favors by exaggerating what Trump says when what he says is just stupid and offensive enough. Take away the defense that anti-Trumpers are liars by sticking closely to the undeniable facts.
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Old 27th April 2020, 01:58 PM   #544
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Trump didn't say to inject people with lysol, he just asked if it's possible to inject something like it to.........?

I don't think it's an unreasonable question. I mean, I don't understand why they haven't tried building covid-targeting nanites to cure the disease. Or, why not shrink a person and tiny submarine to inject into people and attack the virus directly?
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Old 27th April 2020, 02:36 PM   #545
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Trump didn't say to inject people with lysol, he just asked if it's possible to inject something like it to.........?

I don't think it's an unreasonable question. I mean, I don't understand why they haven't tried building covid-targeting nanites to cure the disease. Or, why not shrink a person and tiny submarine to inject into people and attack the virus directly?
It is an unreasonable question and the experts are forced to spend some time explaining why an investigation isn't really necessary without hurting his poor, little feelings. It's ridiculous.

And it's also absolutely true that he asked this ridiculous question. So why not focus on his actual idiocy rather than something that is a slight exaggeration of his idiotic question? Surely, there's enough meat on that bone.

Let his supporters try to defend what Trump actually said rather than give them the easy out of pointing out he didn't tell anyone to guzzle Lysol.
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Old 27th April 2020, 04:05 PM   #546
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Trump didn't say to inject people with lysol, he just asked if it's possible to inject something like it to.........?

I don't think it's an unreasonable question. I mean, I don't understand why they haven't tried building covid-targeting nanites to cure the disease. Or, why not shrink a person and tiny submarine to inject into people and attack the virus directly?
I have no idea whey Azar hasn't enlisted the aid of Miss Frizzle.
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Old 27th April 2020, 04:07 PM   #547
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
It is an unreasonable question and the experts are forced to spend some time explaining why an investigation isn't really necessary without hurting his poor, little feelings. It's ridiculous.

And it's also absolutely true that he asked this ridiculous question. So why not focus on his actual idiocy rather than something that is a slight exaggeration of his idiotic question? Surely, there's enough meat on that bone.

Let his supporters try to defend what Trump actually said rather than give them the easy out of pointing out he didn't tell anyone to guzzle Lysol.
THAT^
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Old 27th April 2020, 07:30 PM   #548
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Trump didn't say to inject people with lysol, he just asked if it's possible to inject something like it to.........?

I don't think it's an unreasonable question. I mean, I don't understand why they haven't tried building covid-targeting nanites to cure the disease. Or, why not shrink a person and tiny submarine to inject into people and attack the virus directly?
Seriously? We watched the tape of him talking about it. I assume we saw the same tape. It wasn't just "unreasonable"! It was dangerous! Suggesting something - clearly - terrifying - later blame it on sarcasm? You can't have it both ways? Was it sarcasm, or simply irresponsible and putting many more at risk of death?

Again. Seriously?
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Old 27th April 2020, 07:41 PM   #549
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Trump didn't say to inject people with lysol, he just asked if it's possible to inject something like it to.........?

I don't think it's an unreasonable question. I mean, I don't understand why they haven't tried building covid-targeting nanites to cure the disease. Or, why not shrink a person and tiny submarine to inject into people and attack the virus directly?
Trump would buy into that as long as there was a Raquel Welch angle.
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Old 28th April 2020, 04:54 AM   #550
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
We watched the tape of him talking about it. I assume we saw the same tape. It wasn't just "unreasonable"! It was dangerous! Suggesting something - clearly - terrifying - later blame it on sarcasm? You can't have it both ways?
His claim that it was sarcasm just makes it bad either way. He was either foolish enough to use a briefing during a national crisis to try and troll the media, or he said something stupid enough that he thinks he can try to hide its stupidity by claiming sarcasm. Neither case is good.

"It was a silly half thought out question that wasn't appropriate to ask at the time" would have been the appropriate response.
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Old 28th April 2020, 08:10 AM   #551
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
Seriously? We watched the tape of him talking about it. I assume we saw the same tape. It wasn't just "unreasonable"! It was dangerous! Suggesting something - clearly - terrifying - later blame it on sarcasm? You can't have it both ways? Was it sarcasm, or simply irresponsible and putting many more at risk of death?

Again. Seriously?
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Old 2nd May 2020, 01:05 PM   #552
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Old 2nd May 2020, 01:06 PM   #553
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
THAT^
Don't get excited just yet. We still haven't even gotten as far as even admitting what he actually said. Why don't you start there, and then see if anyone's willing to defend it.
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Old 2nd May 2020, 07:28 PM   #554
sir drinks-a-lot
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Originally Posted by wasapi View Post
Seriously? We watched the tape of him talking about it. I assume we saw the same tape.
At least make up your mind what you imagine he said. Did he insist people inject Lysol into their eyeballs? Did he force people to snort lye? Did he say he'd put people in jail if they didn't gargle gasoline?
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Old 2nd May 2020, 07:53 PM   #555
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
At least make up your mind what you imagine he said. Did he insist people inject Lysol into their eyeballs? Did he force people to snort lye? Did he say he'd put people in jail if they didn't gargle gasoline?
No. He JAQed some of the ignorant blather ever uttered. Something we might expect Eric Cartman to say.

Since Trump, we often hear things like: What a POTUS says doesn't mean anything ... POTUS can have opinions like everyone else...

The fact is, what the POTUS says has impact. People actually ingested dangerous substances in response. Exceedingly busy public health agencies had to field calls about it. Utterly predictable.

Comically, Trump instructed the doctors on stage to look into it. I'm guessing that didn't go anywhere.
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Old 2nd May 2020, 08:01 PM   #556
sir drinks-a-lot
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
No.
I agree. It's pretty obvious, but many here seem to be having difficulties. It's rather embarrassing for a site claiming to be a skeptics forum.

Quote:
The fact is, what the POTUS says has impact. People actually ingested dangerous substances in response. Exceedingly busy public health agencies had to field calls about it. Utterly predictable.
I'm ok with people thinking he said to inject lysol into their ears deciding to actually try it.
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Old 3rd May 2020, 05:32 AM   #557
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Don't get excited just yet. We still haven't even gotten as far as even admitting what he actually said. Why don't you start there, and then see if anyone's willing to defend it.
I'll bite.

He said that we should test and see whether injecting or somehow cleaning the lungs would disinfectants would work. In his defense, he said we should get medical doctors involved in such tests.

That and we should test using light internally, either shining it through the body or something.

That sound about right? Seems like addled quarter-thoughts that will distract experts at least long enough to explain to the president why these are not fruitful avenues of research if not longer. It shows a complete boob trying his darnedest to think outside the box and become a hero (or spread a little hope, since he seems to think that even false hope is a boon).
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Old 3rd May 2020, 07:54 AM   #558
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
I agree. It's pretty obvious, but many here seem to be having difficulties. It's rather embarrassing for a site claiming to be a skeptics forum.
How do you imagine that manufacturing a bunch of ridiculous and dangerous things he didn’t say at all mitigates the ridiculous and dangerous thing he did say?

Quote:
I'm ok with people thinking he said to inject lysol into their ears deciding to actually try it.
I know, right? People are so stupid.

Meanwhile, you voted for a guy who thinks maybe injecting disinfectant is a viable treatment for a virus.
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Old 3rd May 2020, 08:56 AM   #559
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I'll bite.

He said that we should test and see whether injecting or somehow cleaning the lungs would disinfectants would work. In his defense, he said we should get medical doctors involved in such tests.

That and we should test using light internally, either shining it through the body or something.

That sound about right? Seems like addled quarter-thoughts that will distract experts at least long enough to explain to the president why these are not fruitful avenues of research if not longer. It shows a complete boob trying his darnedest to think outside the box and become a hero (or spread a little hope, since he seems to think that even false hope is a boon).
Okay, this is a bit of a subjective take on this. Trump, on national TV, asked a question so stupid, that pretty much anybody with more than a 6th grade education would know it's stupid. He didn't (quite) say that people should mainline bleach, or inhale lysol, but it's just a small extrapolation of what he did say.

ETA: Something that has occurred to me lately. Was Trump also being sarcastic when he proclaimed himself to be a "stable genius"?

Maybe, on Jan.21, 2021, Biden can say to him, "Hey, genius! We've got a stable that needs to be cleaned. Get to it.

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Old 3rd May 2020, 09:07 AM   #560
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
Okay, this is a bit of a subjective take on this. Trump, on national TV, asked a question so stupid, that pretty much anybody with more than a 6th grade education would know it's stupid. He didn't (quite) say that people should mainline bleach, or inhale lysol, but it's just a small extrapolation of what he did say.

ETA: Something that has occurred to me lately. Was Trump also being sarcastic when he proclaimed himself to be a "stable genius"?

Maybe, on Jan.21, 2021, Biden can say to him, "Hey, genius! We've got a stable that needs to be cleaned. Get to it.
Why would Joe Biden say that to man who beat him so handsomely in the election ?

Sure Biden won the popular vote by a country mile, but the electoral college and targeted voter suppression (ironically claiming to protect minorities from Coronavirus by closing polling stations in their neighbourhoods and relying on low levels of postal voting) made sure that President Trump was reelected.
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