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Old 14th August 2020, 05:17 PM   #1
Skeptic Ginger
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Antifa Boogeyman: Echoes of the Red Scare and Government Targeting Protesters

Remember when GW Bush had a fake reporter in his press conferences asking planted questions? (The Guardian: Fake reporter unmasked at White House - Jeff Gannon)

Well, Trump doesn't like the questions he gets, no problem, he brings his own reporter with planted questions.

Yahoo News: 'Antifa' website cited in conservative media attack on Biden is linked to — wait for it — Russia
Quote:
WASHINGTON — At his press briefing Wednesday, President Trump, as he usually does, called for a question from Chanel Rion, the chief White House correspondent for the conservative One America News network, which has at times replaced Fox News as the president’s favorite news outlet. Rion’s question had nothing to do with COVID-19 or the economic recovery Trump had been boasting about, but instead brought up an obscure website, antifa.com.

“I wanted to highlight a kind of odd situation. In the last hour or so, if you googled ‘antifa.com,’ it would take you straight to Joe Biden’s website — his official campaign website — odd situation,” Rion said, adding, “We don’t know who’s behind that.”
Apparently we do know who's behind it. Odd all right.

Quote:
Rion went on to suggest the site posed “an interesting leadership question” for the former vice president and his running mate, Sen. Kamala Harris, D-Calif.
Is there a question for Trump here?

Quote:
“Should Joe Biden, the Democrat Party, Kamala Harris, should they publicly denounce the antifa as a domestic terrorist organization?” Rion asked the president.. .
Based on no evidence.


More about the website:
Quote:
After briefly redirecting to Biden’s page on Wednesday, the site went dark. Based on copies of the site on the Internet Archive, it was blank from 2013 until June of this year when it began to feature a message in support of the protests that erupted around the U.S. following the killing of George Floyd. The page declared, “we are actively increasing Membership” but provided no contact information for anyone interested in joining.

“We Are Antifa: Join Us & Take Action,”....
Hmmm, site goes dark, nowhere to apply. I'm surprised they haven't used the site to gather data on people.



There have been other attempts by the Trump people directly trying to gin up the antifa boogeyman. And it's a twofur, gives them an excuse to spy on anyone protesting the government.

The Nation; Aug 3 : Homeland Security Is Quietly Tying Antifa to Foreign Powers
Quote:
“They targeted Americans like they’re Al Qaeda,” a former senior DHS intelligence officer with knowledge of the operations told The Nation. The officer, who served for years in the DHS’s Office of Intelligence and Analysis (I&A), compared the operations to the illegal surveillance of activists during the civil rights era. “They essentially were violating people’s rights like this was the ’60s…the type of **** the Church and Pike committee[s] had to address.” ...

“Designating someone as foreign-sponsored can make a huge legal and practical difference in the government’s ability to pursue them," ... they are subject to warrantless search and surveillance in a way that would be illegal and unconstitutional for any other US person. ...

Last week the DHS reassigned its intelligence chief after The Washington Post revealed that the agency had been compiling intelligence reports on American journalists and activists in Portland, Ore. In response to President Trump’s executive order to protect monuments and other federal property, the DHS created the Protecting American Communities Task Force, which sent DHS assets to Portland and other cities. The agency has found itself in transition under the Trump administration.“They are always pressuring I&A for political reasons. It’s been like that since the election,” the former intelligence officer said.
Whoops, getting too hot to target reporters.

The Red Scare is alive and still just as sick. No J Edgar but better toys.
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Old 14th August 2020, 06:47 PM   #2
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No time for that, we have to ban the murder simulator known as "DOOM 2".

I especially like the fact that the site is "antifa.com", marking it as a commercial site. Basically, this is what happens when congrespeople are completely clueless on the most basic of technology issues. Still, yet again, even the FBI (correcly) denotes "antifa" as an ideology and not an organization, so the question is gibberish even from a law enforcement standpoint.
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Old 14th August 2020, 07:46 PM   #3
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Judging by the noises emitted from my mother, who is a Fox News kook when it comes to politics, the current narrative being pushed by that outlet is that BLM = Antifa, any and all current protests = Antifa, and these children need to be in school regardless of the risk and final death toll. Not sure how the last relates to Antifa but I'm sure it's in there somewhere.
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Old 14th August 2020, 09:01 PM   #4
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Antifa is so weirdly viewed. From posters here, antifa is not an organization but an ideology. As such, anyone that does something worthy is claimed a part, and anyone that does something negative is not. Which makes it a really solid ******** ideology to be claimed and accused from both sides.

Riot? Antifa. Defending from white supremacist? Antifa. It's useless in the sphere of news coverage but obviously has the ability to influence activity on the ground level. To me, there are no redeeming qualities where it should be defended, beyond any over reach of government in trying to use it to expand power. No, you can't call it a terrorist organization. If there is proof it is, present it. It hasn't yet reached that level, although it is impossible to know if it might in the future.

The claim it is simply an ideology is disproven on the ground though. They are organized, with a specific 'mission', be it medics or otherwise. I have seen no reason to believe they are a net positive to any movement, and I doubt anyone that looks logically at their actions will disagree. Perhaps anarchists copied and infiltrated, but I haven't seen pushback to their actions in any meaningful way from those that would identify as antifa but would not agree with those actions.
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Old 15th August 2020, 09:21 AM   #5
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Today at Stone Mountain, white supremacists are holding a rally to protect it. They are showing up in camo garb armed to the teeth to show their support for a blatant display honoring the confederacy.

Meanwhile, there are about 10 times as many ant-fascist "counter-protesters."
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Old 15th August 2020, 11:59 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Today at Stone Mountain, white supremacists are holding a rally to protect it. They are showing up in camo garb armed to the teeth to show their support for a blatant display honoring the confederacy.

Meanwhile, there are about 10 times as many ant-fascist "counter-protesters."
Again? Didn't we have that a couple of weeks ago?
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Old 15th August 2020, 12:07 PM   #7
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Quote:
Antifa Boogeyman

Great band name!
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Old 15th August 2020, 12:11 PM   #8
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Why would you google antifa.com?

And why do Americans pronounce antifa so strangely? It's anti as in, well, anti. Anti-fa. Not anteefa.
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Old 15th August 2020, 12:14 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
Why would you google antifa.com?

And why do Americans pronounce antifa so strangely? It's anti as in, well, anti. Anti-fa. Not anteefa.
Probably not many people did until the faux reporter asked Trump about it in his press conference.
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Old 15th August 2020, 12:19 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
Why would you google antifa.com?

And why do Americans pronounce antifa so strangely? It's anti as in, well, anti. Anti-fa. Not anteefa.

They can’t pronounce Kamala either. And they can even spell aluminium.
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Old 15th August 2020, 12:22 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
Antifa is so weirdly viewed. From posters here, antifa is not an organization but an ideology.
Even the FBI agrees with this - and they're not known to be sympathetic towards equality-based organizations and movements

Quote:
As such, anyone that does something worthy is claimed a part, and anyone that does something negative is not. Which makes it a really solid ******** ideology to be claimed and accused from both sides.
That's not quite it. The problem is that, in some cases, people are specifically working against, well, fascism (antifa), while in others they're actually responding to other concerns - Unite the Right was, in reality, a loose set of white supremacist and white nationalist groups - and both are ideologies, not organizations.

The problem is, much like with Black Lives Matter, conservatives often don't have the slightest idea what they're talking about. Thus, like "Hobbit homes" and "FEMA camps", we also get nonsense like "Antifa soldiers" (or better, supersoldiers) and "BLM terrorists". Again, actual violent groups - Atomwaffen, Boogaloo, the Proud Boys, etc. - often organize right out in the open, which is why they're easily found out by countergroups - but police tend to react with wild violence to peaceful groups demanding equal treatment, and not at all to openly planmned violent attacks (even against police themselves!) by white supremacist groups, so it often falls to groups like Redneck Rebellion or the Deacons for Defense to deal with the problem.

(This is also how we know that the response is based on hysterics and bigotry, by the way - cops and many non-cops are far more scared by unarmed black people marching and chanting, than they are by actual cop-killing white terrorists who routinely go on shooting rampages.)

Quote:
Riot? Antifa. Defending from white supremacist? Antifa. It's useless in the sphere of news coverage but obviously has the ability to influence activity on the ground level. To me, there are no redeeming qualities where it should be defended, beyond any over reach of government in trying to use it to expand power. No, you can't call it a terrorist organization. If there is proof it is, present it. It hasn't yet reached that level, although it is impossible to know if it might in the future.
Well, we know that antifa doesn't have any real history of terrorism (although, certainly, innocent people have been harmed when mistaken for fascists - that sort of thing is inevitable), while, say, fascists have a long history of terrorism, state violence, warmongering, and genocide. I think I know who to worry about.

Quote:
The claim it is simply an ideology is disproven on the ground though. They are organized, with a specific 'mission', be it medics or otherwise. I have seen no reason to believe they are a net positive to any movement, and I doubt anyone that looks logically at their actions will disagree. Perhaps anarchists copied and infiltrated, but I haven't seen pushback to their actions in any meaningful way from those that would identify as antifa but would not agree with those actions.
Medics tend to organize whenever people rlly for equal treatment because, again, police respond to these rallies with wild violence. And there's nothing to say that there aren't groups that are guided by antifa ideology - in fact there are many such groups. But there are also individuals working to doxx violent fascists, much like Black Twitter tracks down racists for public shaming and possible criminal cases.

And that you haven't personally seen pushback against anarchists, doesn't mean that there is none - it basically just means you weren't there - much like the people who whine that "black people never protest black on black crime" have merely revealed that they're actually concerned about protecting cops rather than black people being killed. In reality, this happens all the time - and would be far easier when the police act reasonably, rather than freaking out like a squad of suicide bombers just attacked them.
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Old 15th August 2020, 12:22 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
They can’t pronounce Kamala either.

Has anyone ever asked Donnie to pronounce “Martin Luther King”?
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Old 21st August 2020, 11:43 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
That's not quite it. The problem is that, in some cases, people are specifically working against, well, fascism (antifa), while in others they're actually responding to other concerns - Unite the Right was, in reality, a loose set of white supremacist and white nationalist groups - and both are ideologies, not organizations.

Which kind of makes my point. Antifa can be an ideology, but it doesn't negate the fact people that follow that ideology form groups in locations around the country. They don't have to be nationally or even locally completely organized, but when you rally followers together under an ideology, it really doesn't matter if you don't consider that Antifa, to any outside view that's what it is.


Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
The problem is, much like with Black Lives Matter, conservatives often don't have the slightest idea what they're talking about. Thus, like "Hobbit homes" and "FEMA camps", we also get nonsense like "Antifa soldiers" (or better, supersoldiers) and "BLM terrorists". Again, actual violent groups - Atomwaffen, Boogaloo, the Proud Boys, etc. - often organize right out in the open, which is why they're easily found out by countergroups - but police tend to react with wild violence to peaceful groups demanding equal treatment, and not at all to openly planmned violent attacks (even against police themselves!) by white supremacist groups, so it often falls to groups like Redneck Rebellion or the Deacons for Defense to deal with the problem.
I've had this conversation on here before and it's not really something I see us coming to an agreement on. I have not in any measurable amount seen antifa's presence deescalate or deflect violence. It has only amplified, encouraged and increased it in basically any situation they attend.

Perhaps you have more personal experience with local groups that shapes your mindset. I look at it from a nationwide angle, and go by the many livestreams I've viewed over the years to see what's going on. Not short clips, start to finish stuff. This is still in any case just one individuals view on any given event, but taken in totality I just have not seen the positive aspects some here seem to claim.


Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Well, we know that antifa doesn't have any real history of terrorism (although, certainly, innocent people have been harmed when mistaken for fascists - that sort of thing is inevitable), while, say, fascists have a long history of terrorism, state violence, warmongering, and genocide. I think I know who to worry about.

I don't like using the word terrorism since it definitely feels diluted when applied to groups like Antifa. It you went by the definition, sure, you could skirt them in but it's not at all near what anyone would consider a terrorist organization. And there definitely should be increased police infiltration of many of these pop up white supremacist groups. I'm in agreement on who are the more worrisome groups.


Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
And that you haven't personally seen pushback against anarchists, doesn't mean that there is none - it basically just means you weren't there - much like the people who whine that "black people never protest black on black crime" have merely revealed that they're actually concerned about protecting cops rather than black people being killed. In reality, this happens all the time - and would be far easier when the police act reasonably, rather than freaking out like a squad of suicide bombers just attacked them.
Let me try to be more clear since I think your confusing my point. It's not that I don't believe there has been push back. It's that it has not been at all a deterrent. The behavior is accepted, even if it's not encouraged. Main reason probably being the violent actors are more than willing to use violence to continue doing so against police or protesters alike. There also is this new found "I don't have the right to tell anyone how to protest even though it's not what we do" insincere side step.
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Old 17th September 2020, 10:21 AM   #14
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Drunk driver flips truck when he hits guide wire for telephone poll.

Claims it was antifa. A bold strategy cotton, let's see how it works.

https://twitter.com/IwriteOK/status/1306396464000557056
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Old 19th September 2020, 07:44 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
Why would you google antifa.com?

And why do Americans pronounce antifa so strangely? It's anti as in, well, anti. Anti-fa. Not anteefa.
Not to mention that the last syllable should be pronounced faaaah, not fuh. They aren't fighting fuhschists (of course they aren't fighting fascists either, but trailer trash).
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Old 19th September 2020, 07:52 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Not to mention that the last syllable should be pronounced faaaah, not fuh. They aren't fighting fuhschists (of course they aren't fighting fascists either, but trailer trash).
Weird. I didn’t know that “trailer trash” was the most significant domestic terrorist threat in the U.S.
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Old 19th September 2020, 08:03 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Drunk driver flips truck when he hits guide wire for telephone poll.

Claims it was antifa. A bold strategy cotton, let's see how it works.

https://twitter.com/IwriteOK/status/1306396464000557056
The Antifa vingardium leviosa spell can be used to devastating effect on Good Christian drivers just going about their daily lives.
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Old 19th September 2020, 08:13 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Weird. I didn’t know that “trailer trash” was the most significant domestic terrorist threat in the U.S.
And a rag-tag bunch of commies in black who aren't even organized are going to protect us from them. I feel safer already.
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Old 19th September 2020, 08:21 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
And a rag-tag bunch of commies in black who aren't even organized are going to protect us from them. I feel safer already.
I don’t think anyone actually expects that, but it’s a shame that the state of law enforcement makes some people think it’s necessary.

Perhaps if the police weren’t so chummy with right wing extremists, these “commies in black” wouldn’t feel the need to take to the streets.
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Old 19th September 2020, 11:40 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
And a rag-tag bunch of commies in black who aren't even organized are going to protect us from them. I feel safer already.
You might want to try when the cops are certainly going to do more harm than good.
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Old 21st September 2020, 12:41 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
Which kind of makes my point. Antifa can be an ideology, but it doesn't negate the fact people that follow that ideology form groups in locations around the country. They don't have to be nationally or even locally completely organized, but when you rally followers together under an ideology, it really doesn't matter if you don't consider that Antifa, to any outside view that's what it is.
The thing is that it isn't even really an ideology as it is not for anything, it is against the far right white supremacists. So protesting against nazi's, antifa but it doesn't really say much other than that you think nazi's are bad. Though that is getting to be more and more a controversial position.
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Old 21st September 2020, 12:43 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
I don’t think anyone actually expects that, but it’s a shame that the state of law enforcement makes some people think it’s necessary.

Perhaps if the police weren’t so chummy with right wing extremists, these “commies in black” wouldn’t feel the need to take to the streets.
In police speak that is "armed friendlies".
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Old 23rd September 2020, 07:03 PM   #23
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RE: Antifa Boogeyman: Echoes of the Red Scare and Government Targeting Protesters

This is standard operating procedure for the Left; a real threat is dismissed as not really existing or merely the chimerical suggestion of a paranoid brain. Communism, at its height, ruled over roughly one-third of the world's population and was responsible for killing maybe close to 100 million people. It could easily be described as the greatest mass murdering ideology in all of human history and one that enslaved entire nations. But since Communists never committed any thought crimes they are of no concern to the modern Left. It can all be dismissed as a "Red Scare".

But what we have today in America is the rising tide of color (BLM) mixed with the rising tide of Bolshevism (Antifa); a true dystopian nightmare.
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Old 23rd September 2020, 09:36 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Still, yet again, even the FBI (correcly) denotes "antifa" as an ideology and not an organization, so the question is gibberish even from a law enforcement standpoint.

FBI got it wrong. FBI incorrectly denotes "antifa" as an ideology. Antifa is not even an ideology. Antifa is the opposition to the ideology of fascism. In other words, antifa is an ideology the same way atheism is a religion.

Originally Posted by dann View Post
Quote:
It’s an ideology, not an organization, said Christopher Wray, while telling Congress something else Trump won’t want to hear: Violent white supremacists are a domestic terrorist threat.
The FBI Director Chris Wray Just Blew Up Trump's Anti-Antifa War Plan (Vanity Fair, Sep. 17, 2020)

But there's one problem with Christopher Wray's attempt to define Antifa. It isn't even an ideology. It's anyone who doesn't like Fascism for whatever reason and tries to do something (!) about it.
The Daily Show (Sep. 1, 2017):
Antifa: The Anti-Fascist Antagonists of the Alt-Right
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Antifa is the rejection of a particular political ideology, Fascism, which is nowadays mostly incorporated by White Supremacists.
Antifa is no more an ideology than atheism is a religion.
A Brief History of Anti-Fascism (Smithsonian Mag, June 24, 2020)

Watch Trevor Noah's video about antifa, and tell me what the antifa ideology is supposed to be!
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Old 23rd September 2020, 10:01 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
This is standard operating procedure for the Left; a real threat is dismissed as not really existing or merely the chimerical suggestion of a paranoid brain.

In this case, it is "merely the chimerical suggestion of a paranoid brain," whereas the white supremacists are supposed to be good people because they praise that same paranoid brain.

Quote:
Communism, at its height, ruled over roughly one-third of the world's population and was responsible for killing maybe close to 100 million people.

You are confusing communism with Stalinism while forgetting the millions killed by capitalism.

Quote:
It could easily be described as the greatest mass murdering ideology in all of human history and one that enslaved entire nations. But since Communists never committed any thought crimes they are of no concern to the modern Left. It can all be dismissed as a "Red Scare".

Yes, the Red Scare can be dismissed as the Red Scare.

Quote:
But what we have today in America is the rising tide of color (BLM) mixed with the rising tide of Bolshevism (Antifa); a true dystopian nightmare.

What you have in the USA today is the rising tide of fascism. Racist thinking has taken over the White House and 40 percent of voters' brains, a dystopian nightmare, indeed.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 24th September 2020, 05:14 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
FBI got it wrong. FBI incorrectly denotes "antifa" as an ideology. Antifa is not even an ideology. Antifa is the opposition to the ideology of fascism. In other words, antifa is an ideology the same way atheism is a religion.
Conceeded; I misspoke, in a way. Still, the main point is that there's no organization called "Antifa", and in fact we've seen incidents up to and including one antifascist pepperspraying another, because the second was infiltrating a white nationalist group and the former had no clue about this, and no possible way to know about it.

(The latter went on to out the entire membership of the group and effectively destroy it - good on him!)
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Old 25th September 2020, 11:18 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
The Antifa vingardium leviosa spell can be used to devastating effect on Good Christian drivers just going about their daily lives.
Now is that "vingardium levi-OH-sa"? Or "vingardium levios-AH"?
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Old 25th September 2020, 11:38 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
This is standard operating procedure for the Left; a real threat is dismissed as not really existing or merely the chimerical suggestion of a paranoid brain. Communism, at its height, ruled over roughly one-third of the world's population and was responsible for killing maybe close to 100 million people. It could easily be described as the greatest mass murdering ideology in all of human history and one that enslaved entire nations. But since Communists never committed any thought crimes they are of no concern to the modern Left. It can all be dismissed as a "Red Scare".

But what we have today in America is the rising tide of color (BLM) mixed with the rising tide of Bolshevism (Antifa); a true dystopian nightmare.
Who's "We"? Dystopian nightmare? Well, it's cool that you don't live in the USA, then?
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Old 27th September 2020, 07:05 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
Communism, at its height, ruled over roughly one-third of the world's population and was responsible for killing maybe close to 100 million people. It could easily be described as the greatest mass murdering ideology in all of human history and one that enslaved entire nations.
Ever heard what happened in 1989 and later? I will spoil it for you: communism - totalitarian far-left ideology - deservedly kicked bucket. There are some holdovers all over world, but that ideology lost and will hopefully never rise again.

Right now we have threat from rise of totalitarian far-right ideology, both in USA and all over the world. You, of course, don't see problem, since you are far-right extremist, judging from drivel that you write here.

Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
But what we have today in America is the rising tide of color (BLM) mixed with the rising tide of Bolshevism (Antifa); a true dystopian nightmare.
Movements like BLM have nothing to do with communism. You don't know jack **** about communism. You are delusional.
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Old 28th September 2020, 08:31 AM   #30
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This is fine actually:

Quote:
Federal Agencies Tapped Protesters’ Phones in Portland
Homeland Security has not yet come clean to the public about the full extent of its intelligence operations in Portland.
https://www.thenation.com/article/po...rity-portland/
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Old 29th September 2020, 08:32 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Who's "We"? Dystopian nightmare? Well, it's cool that you don't live in the USA, then?
We = My fellow Americans

Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
Ever heard what happened in 1989 and later? I will spoil it for you: communism - totalitarian far-left ideology - deservedly kicked bucket. There are some holdovers all over world, but that ideology lost and will hopefully never rise again..
Yes. I was referring to Communism before it collapsed. At one point almost 1/3rd of the world's population lived under a Communist regime. Therefore, the suggestion that it was all a "red scare" is bogus.

Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
Right now we have threat from rise of totalitarian far-right ideology, both in USA and all over the world. You, of course, don't see problem, since you are far-right extremist, judging from drivel that you write here.
No. We have just the opposite threat in fact. To suggest that there is a threat from a totalitarian far-right ideology is absurd. Name any institution of power and influence in this country controlled by far-right ideology. Now name institutions and seats of power under the control of far-Left ideology. The two lists would not bear comparison. The media, academia, Silicon Valley, Fortune 500 companies, NGOs, government bureaucracies, local city councils etc are all under the thrall of Bolshevism.

Ashley Rae Goldenberg (AKA CommunismKills) compiled a list of all the companies that voiced public support for Black Lives Matter. She published this list at Medium but she was quickly banned.

"Medium, a platform that allows independent writers to publish articles and start blogs, banned conservative writer Ashley Goldenberg for publishing a list of businesses that have gone woke, supporting Black Lives Matter..."

The list was published in other places. You can look it over and let me know if you can come up with a comparable list of businesses that support "far-right ideology."

p.s. Little Ashley Rae was subsequently banned from Twitter. If your moniker is CommunismKills and you are getting de-platformed left and right that is a strong indication that we don't live in a society dominated by far-right ideology.

Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
Movements like BLM have nothing to do with communism. You don't know jack **** about communism. You are delusional.
Black Lives Matter is a Marxist organization. BLM co-founder Patrisse Cullors described herself as a "trained Marxist". Their policy proposals regarding defunding the police and attacks on the nuclear family are straight out of old guard Communism.

Antifa is derivative of the Anti-Fascist fighting leagues (Antifaschistische Aktion) that formed in Weimar Germany. They were the paramilitary wing of the KPD (German Communist Party).

So like I said, "...what we have today in America is the rising tide of color (BLM) mixed with the rising tide of Bolshevism (Antifa); a true dystopian nightmare."
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Old 29th September 2020, 09:49 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
FBI got it wrong. FBI incorrectly denotes "antifa" as an ideology. Antifa is not even an ideology. Antifa is the opposition to the ideology of fascism. In other words, antifa is an ideology the same way atheism is a religion.
I don't think I agree with that line of logic, or the analogy.

Atheism is a position on the philosophical question of "does God* exist?". You're right that it's not a religion; but that isn't because it is an "opposite to religion". Theism, the "yes god" position (or one of them) of itself isn't a religion either, it's just another position on the same question. Religions - using the traditional definition - are separate systems, though; they are positions on the narrower philosophical question of "if God exists, what is God like and what does God want?". This follow-up question is unavailable to atheists because they rejected the premise at the previous stage, and that's the reason why there's no atheist religions.

With that digression out of the way - I really have to disagree that antifa isn't an ideology. We're not talking about someone who is passively unconvinced that fascism is good; the position that fascism or any of its component tenets is bad or wrong enough to merit actual resistance IS a positive, ideological position by definition; you can't believe "fascism is wrong" without also believing that not-fascism is right.

That isn't to say that antifascists necessarily support every possible non-fascism ideology; but yes, "it is important that our country not be led by a fascist leader or be governed according to fascist principles" is definitely an ideological statement.
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Old 30th September 2020, 02:26 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I don't think I agree with that line of logic, or the analogy.

Atheism is a position on the philosophical question of "does God* exist?". You're right that it's not a religion; but that isn't because it is an "opposite to religion". Theism, the "yes god" position (or one of them) of itself isn't a religion either, it's just another position on the same question. Religions - using the traditional definition - are separate systems, though; they are positions on the narrower philosophical question of "if God exists, what is God like and what does God want?". This follow-up question is unavailable to atheists because they rejected the premise at the previous stage, and that's the reason why there's no atheist religions.

With that digression out of the way - I really have to disagree that antifa isn't an ideology. We're not talking about someone who is passively unconvinced that fascism is good; the position that fascism or any of its component tenets is bad or wrong enough to merit actual resistance IS a positive, ideological position by definition; you can't believe "fascism is wrong" without also believing that not-fascism is right.

That isn't to say that antifascists necessarily support every possible non-fascism ideology; but yes, "it is important that our country not be led by a fascist leader or be governed according to fascist principles" is definitely an ideological statement.
I'm fine with this description. I suppose Antifa can be described as the ideology that fascism is bad and should be countered by any means.
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Old 30th September 2020, 09:23 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
FBI got it wrong. FBI incorrectly denotes "antifa" as an ideology. Antifa is not even an ideology. Antifa is the opposition to the ideology of fascism. In other words, antifa is an ideology the same way atheism is a religion.!
The ideology of Antifa can be described as neo-Bolshevism. They carry on the legacy of the Anti-Fascist fighting leagues that came out of the troubled Weimar Republic of Germany in the 1920s and 1930s. They formed the militant wing of the German Communist Party (KPD). But this brings up another question. What exactly is a "Fascist"? George Orwell once wrote an essay on the topic.

"It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else."

It would seem that Fascism could apply to almost anything. I have even heard many people describe Antifa as Fascist. But why is it so hard to arrive at a simple definition? The reason a settled definition or description cannot be created around the word "fascist" is because it defines what something isn't, not what something is.

Fascism is a word in the political sphere which can be compared to the word Pagan in the religious sphere. It primarily describes what one is not, opposed to what one is. The Left uses the word Fascist to describe the enemies of Communism or simply people who are not Communists. Just like the word Pagan is used to denote non-Christians, Jews or Muslims. But Paganism doesn't tell you anything about the belief systems of Pagans. This is why people trying to come up with a consistent description of Paganism would fall into all kinds of difficulties. The Paganism of Ancient Egypt, Phoenicia, and the Celts all differ widely from each other and such civilizations would view the attempt to place their beliefs under one heading, Paganism, as quite ridiculous.

The same can be said for Fascist. It simply denotes an enemy of Communism. Just look at the all things that are called Fascist and the one thing they will have in common is that they all hinder the world revolution that Communism so desires. When people use the term Fascist over and over again to describe their political opponents it says more about the pedigree of their ideas (Bolshevism), than it does about person being labeled (Non-Bolshevist). So you got it backwards, Fascism is the opposition to the ideology of Communism.

p.s. Antifa or anarchists as they were called then have been marching in many left-wing cities for years. They hold their biggest march on May Day which is the holiest day in the Communist calendar. This is an article describing their "march" in Seattle from way back in 2013.

"On May 1, protestors threw paint bombs of florescent green and blood red, damaging businesses and sidewalks near the downtown library. Anarchists turned on photographers, and KING/5 photojournalist Richard Departee was hit in the face with a wood pole. He kept rolling with blood dripping down the left side of his neck. Another reporter, KOMO/4's Joel Moreno, was doused with red paint near Westlake Park that evening...After anarchists left the former federal courthouse, they turned to windows at Niketown, the Taphouse Grill, American Apparel and other locations – and police moved in faster. The Homestreet Bank in the 1300 block of Sixth Avenue had a large window shattered and a Bank of America in the 500 block of Olive Street had windows shattered during the afternoon rally. Niketown repairs totaled $52,825.74; the Wells Fargo bank at Fourth Avenue and Seneca Street had at least $25,978.13 in damage and a Verizon Wireless store had $1,905.30 in damage."

These events occurred in 2012 when Obama was still in office and years before Trump announced his candidacy. So Antifa does have an ideology and it is Bolshevism; the greatest mass murdering ideology in the history of the world.
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Old 30th September 2020, 09:37 PM   #35
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Biden didn't have as good of an answer as he could have about Antifa in the debate.

If he had reviewed the facts he could have told Trump that Portland wasn't burning and that Trump's claims about cities in ruins from rioting were grossly exaggerated.
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Old 30th September 2020, 11:49 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
The same can be said for Fascist. It simply denotes an enemy of Communism. Just look at the all things that are called Fascist and the one thing they will have in common is that they all hinder the world revolution that Communism so desires. When people use the term Fascist over and over again to describe their political opponents it says more about the pedigree of their ideas (Bolshevism), than it does about person being labeled (Non-Bolshevist). So you got it backwards, Fascism is the opposition to the ideology of Communism.
No. Fascism is an ultra-nationalistic, authoritarian philosophy of government that favors a strong individual leader or small centralized governing body making the decisions and champions the use of force both as a means of preventing domestic disquiet and as a performative measure to instill nationalistic pride. Fascism is definitely far-right while communism is far-left; but fascism is also in general opposition to any form of distributed-decisionmaking or powers-separation, such as plain old representative democracy.

Yes it's true that there's a lot of people who use the label "fascist" to denote anyone they don't like, as some kind of expletive; but people who do that are invariably ignorant of what fascism is (beyond "bad government") and simply don't know any better.
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Old 30th September 2020, 11:56 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Biden didn't have as good of an answer as he could have about Antifa in the debate.

If he had reviewed the facts he could have told Trump that Portland wasn't burning and that Trump's claims about cities in ruins from rioting were grossly exaggerated.
He could have thrown AntiFa under the bus, but he didn't.
And he put a spotlight on the Proud Boys.

I think Biden did okay.
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Old 1st October 2020, 06:11 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
No. We have just the opposite threat in fact. To suggest that there is a threat from a totalitarian far-right ideology is absurd.
Your selective bias is your problem, not mine.

Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
Name any institution of power and influence in this country controlled by far-right ideology.
Were you living under the rock last four years? Do you know what Republicans are? Who is POTUS right now?
These are rhetorical questions, of course, meant to highlight observation bias of your mind.

Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
Now name institutions and seats of power under the control of far-Left ideology. The two lists would not bear comparison. The media, academia, Silicon Valley, Fortune 500 companies, NGOs, government bureaucracies, local city councils etc are all under the thrall of Bolshevism.
I will stop here, since there is no point continuing when first thing I see here is this whooper.

Highlighted claim can be true only if you have... very specific definition of Bolshevism. Or even simpler, you are throwing out "Bolshevism" as meaningless insult that means "anything I do not like".

So... what is Bolshevism according to you?
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Old 1st October 2020, 08:23 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
Your selective bias is your problem, not mine.


Were you living under the rock last four years? Do you know what Republicans are? Who is POTUS right now?
These are rhetorical questions, of course, meant to highlight observation bias of your mind.



I will stop here, since there is no point continuing when first thing I see here is this whooper.

Highlighted claim can be true only if you have... very specific definition of Bolshevism. Or even simpler, you are throwing out "Bolshevism" as meaningless insult that means "anything I do not like".

So... what is Bolshevism according to you?
Antifa in method is more of an anarchist blend than bolshevik
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Old 1st October 2020, 08:33 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by tanabear View Post
... No. We have just the opposite threat in fact. To suggest that there is a threat from a totalitarian far-right ideology is absurd.
That will come as a surprise to Christopher Wray, Trump appointee, who says otherwise.

Quote:
Name any institution of power and influence in this country controlled by far-right ideology.
The presidency.

That was too easy. Do I owe you a stipend?
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