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Tags court cases , donald trump , Michael Flynn , perjury cases , Robert Mueller , William Barr

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Old 28th May 2020, 06:22 AM   #561
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Michael Flynn is the guy that testified in open court that he lied to the FBI and was treated fairly, and that he didn’t need new counsel, etc. That’s the guy we’re discussing here.
Correction: He plead guilty in open court and said he didn't need new counsel, etc. while being a relatively wealthy and well-connected individual who could afford the best possible representation.. (Compare that to many people who plead guilty who are represented by over-worked public defenders.)
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Old 28th May 2020, 06:27 AM   #562
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Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
It's filed on the docket for his case, the date it was filed is Jan 29th. I'm not sure how much more specific I can get. Try point 9 of the document. "When FBI agents came to the White House on January 24th 2017, I did not lie to them." It's signed by him, not his attorney.
I believe you have enough posts now to link to the document to which you are referring.
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Old 28th May 2020, 06:29 AM   #563
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The reputation of the FBI was put forth as a reason to believe contents of the 302. The fact that agents have been caught lying in related cases is relevant to that. That isn't an ad hominem.
Lying about material facts?
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Old 28th May 2020, 06:38 AM   #564
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Correction: He plead guilty in open court and said he didn't need new counsel, etc. while being a relatively wealthy and well-connected individual who could afford the best possible representation.. (Compare that to many people who plead guilty who are represented by over-worked public defenders.)

You've obviously never been hit with a 5 million dollar attorney bill before.
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Old 28th May 2020, 06:40 AM   #565
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I believe you have enough posts now to link to the document to which you are referring.

https://sidneypowell.com/wp-content/...-1.29.2020.pdf

Filed in support of his motion to withdraw his guilty pleading.
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Old 28th May 2020, 06:45 AM   #566
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Lying about material facts?

As to the 302's, I don't even think as written they show Flynn would be found guilty of a crime. I'm not so sure why they have become such a big deal in this.
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Old 28th May 2020, 06:50 AM   #567
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Why would Flynn NOW be reversing his previously admitted guilt? Because he genuinely believes he is innocent, and now admits to lying under oath in court? Or because he has the weight of the State--in the form of AG Billy, Trump's long-desired 'Roy Cohn'--behind him?

Having such a potent ally as the *prosecution* working with your defence is a powerful incentive to commence lying, knowing how badly the (((prosecutors))) want to get you off.

It all stinks. Because Trump is the prime mover. Not Lady Justice.
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Old 28th May 2020, 07:00 AM   #568
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My 2 cents:
Flynn really, really needs a broad Trump Pardon, not just for himself, but also his son, to prevent the next Administration to get him on all the crimes he has already admitted to and more.
And Barr wants Trump to have the cover of a dismissal of the charge of Lying before he hands out the Pardon.

But when (not if) Sullivan accepts the withdrawal of the charge, Trump will still give Flynn a Pardon, because Flynn has so much more the fear than 6 months suspended.
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Old 28th May 2020, 07:03 AM   #569
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Why would Flynn NOW be reversing his previously admitted guilt? Because he genuinely believes he is innocent, and now admits to lying under oath in court? Or because he has the weight of the State--in the form of AG Billy, Trump's long-desired 'Roy Cohn'--behind him?

Having such a potent ally as the *prosecution* working with your defence is a powerful incentive to commence lying, knowing how badly the (((prosecutors))) want to get you off.

It all stinks. Because Trump is the prime mover. Not Lady Justice.
Already answered as to why he withdrew his guilty pleading.. The conspiratorial thinking that Jensen is part of some behind the scenes cabal lacks evidence.
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Old 28th May 2020, 07:09 AM   #570
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
My 2 cents:
Flynn really, really needs a broad Trump Pardon, not just for himself, but also his son, to prevent the next Administration to get him on all the crimes he has already admitted to and more.
And Barr wants Trump to have the cover of a dismissal of the charge of Lying before he hands out the Pardon.

But when (not if) Sullivan accepts the withdrawal of the charge, Trump will still give Flynn a Pardon, because Flynn has so much more the fear than 6 months suspended.
I don't think that advice is even worth 2 cents, but thanks for the laugh.
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Old 28th May 2020, 07:14 AM   #571
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Lying about material facts?
Yes. Did you not know this?
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Old 28th May 2020, 07:17 AM   #572
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Yes. Did you not know this?
This is what I'm asking for a source on.

eta: if you are referring to the Andrew McCabe and the Clinton Server investigation, as per TahiniBinShawarma, that's an entirely different case.
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Last edited by Upchurch; 28th May 2020 at 07:19 AM.
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Old 28th May 2020, 07:22 AM   #573
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“Toilet server” was about the Clinton emails? Jesus.
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Old 28th May 2020, 07:32 AM   #574
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
“Toilet server” was about the Clinton emails? Jesus.
Yes. I'm not sure leaking to the WSJ and then berating other FBI employees for a leak that you know yourself you actually did, then lying about it to FBI agents is becoming of a Deputy Director of the FBI. Perhaps these actions prove he's a swell guy in your opinion, I doubt an unbiased arbitrator would feel the same way.
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Old 28th May 2020, 07:32 AM   #575
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Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
I don't think that advice is even worth 2 cents, but thanks for the laugh.
You don't think Trump will give Flynn a Pardon ?
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Old 28th May 2020, 07:33 AM   #576
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
This is what I'm asking for a source on.

eta: if you are referring to the Andrew McCabe and the Clinton Server investigation, as per TahiniBinShawarma, that's an entirely different case.

And it only shows McCabe to be sketchy when it comes to honesty and facts, he wasn't the end all be all of the Flynn fiasco.
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Old 28th May 2020, 07:35 AM   #577
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
You don't think Trump will give Flynn a Pardon ?
For what? What specific crimes do you think Flynn would need a pardon for?
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Old 28th May 2020, 07:36 AM   #578
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Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
And it only shows McCabe to be sketchy when it comes to honesty and facts, he wasn't the end all be all of the Flynn fiasco.
What it doesn't show is him lying about material facts about a case, let alone Flynn's case. I'll grant you, it's still bad, but not what was implied.
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Old 28th May 2020, 07:41 AM   #579
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
This is what I'm asking for a source on.

eta: if you are referring to the Andrew McCabe and the Clinton Server investigation, as per TahiniBinShawarma, that's an entirely different case.
I never said the agents lied about the Flynn case, and in fact I explicitly said we don't have evidence that they did. I said agents involved in the Flynn case have lied. McCabe is deeply involved in the Flynn case. He has made material lies in other cases. That affects the credibility of the FBI, and the weight we should assign to 302's and other forms of FBI testimony.
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Old 28th May 2020, 07:43 AM   #580
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
“Toilet server” was about the Clinton emails? Jesus.
I was stumbling on how to figure out what he was talking about, too. The only semi-credible source I found mentioned that it was located in their basement.

I think you gotta be seriously red pilled to get some of these references.
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Old 28th May 2020, 07:43 AM   #581
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
What it doesn't show is him lying about material facts about a case, let alone Flynn's case. I'll grant you, it's still bad, but not what was implied.

Unauthorized leaks were being investigated by the FBI. While the leak itself was not criminal and only subject to disciplinary action, McCabe lied to the questioning agent about the leak. That is material to the issue the FBI was investigating, and could have resulted in the same charge Flynn was charged with. His lies were a criminal act, provably so.
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Old 28th May 2020, 07:51 AM   #582
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I never said the agents lied about the Flynn case, and in fact I explicitly said we don't have evidence that they did. I said agents involved in the Flynn case have lied.
Everyone lies from time to time. The context of "Agents involved in the Flynn case have lied" implies that they lied in the course of their involvement with the Flynn case. Otherwise, why are you bringing it up? You can see, I'm sure, how that is not a very clear statement.

Okay, so to be clear, there is no evidence and no reason to believe that the FBI agents lied during the course of investigating Flynn. Correct?


Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
McCabe is deeply involved in the Flynn case. He has made material lies in other cases.
Ah, okay. What material lies did he make in other cases? Remembering, of course, that the lie TahiniBinShawarma is referring to was about leaking information about the Clinton server investigation and not lying about the facts of the investigation itself.


Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That affects the credibility of the FBI, and the weight we should assign to 302's and other forms of FBI testimony.
Sure, it does effects the credibility, but not necessarily about their presentation of the material facts.
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Old 28th May 2020, 07:52 AM   #583
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Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
Unauthorized leaks were being investigated by the FBI. While the leak itself was not criminal and only subject to disciplinary action, McCabe lied to the questioning agent about the leak. That is material to the issue the FBI was investigating, and could have resulted in the same charge Flynn was charged with. His lies were a criminal act, provably so.
That, in no way, contradicts anything I wrote.
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Old 28th May 2020, 07:55 AM   #584
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I was stumbling on how to figure out what he was talking about, too. The only semi-credible source I found mentioned that it was located in their basement.

I think you gotta be seriously red pilled to get some of these references.
I'm surprised you didn't know what the term "toilet server" meant lol. I always thought it was funny.
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Old 28th May 2020, 07:55 AM   #585
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Everyone lies from time to time.
According to the Inspector General, McCabe lied under oath. Not everyone does that.

Quote:
Sure, it does effects the credibility, but not necessarily about their presentation of the material facts.
What Flynn allegedly said in his interview is a material fact, and the ONLY evidence regarding what he said is the testimony of FBI agents, since there is no recording of what he said. So yeah, their credibility rather directly affects their presentation of material facts.
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Old 28th May 2020, 07:57 AM   #586
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ear

Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
Quote:
Correction: He plead guilty in open court and said he didn't need new counsel, etc. while being a relatively wealthy and well-connected individual who could afford the best possible representation.. (Compare that to many people who plead guilty who are represented by over-worked public defenders.)
You've obviously never been hit with a 5 million dollar attorney bill before.
You might think that supports the idea that Flynn was railroaded, but it really doesn't.

Quick show of hands here... how many people here could afford to spend $5 million on lawyers if you should happen to get into legal problems? I rather suspect few people here could. Yet poor old flynn was somehow able to muster up the cash.

Yes, I'm sure it cut into his savings. But we're talking about an individual who had been earning. thousands in speaking fees. An individual who was earning a salary of ~$800k from his consulting firm. An individual was involved with multiple other companies (earning him hundreds of thousands more). An individual who (thanks to his publicity and connections) was able to get significant financial support from 3rd parties to help pay for his lawyers

From: A run-down of Flynn's recent income (from Politico).

And even after all his big legal fees, he STILL supposedly has ~$1 million in assets.

So yes, Flynn could afford top notch legal representation, and he used his resources to do just that. And he could afford it better than the majority of people who end up pleading guilty in court.
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Old 28th May 2020, 08:00 AM   #587
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Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
For what? What specific crimes do you think Flynn would need a pardon for?
So no?
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Old 28th May 2020, 08:02 AM   #588
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
That, in no way, contradicts anything I wrote.
"What it doesn't show is him lying about material facts about a case"

I think the leak investigation was a case, and his lies were material, more so than the Flynn case. But correct, his lies have nothing to do with the Flynn case.
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Old 28th May 2020, 08:06 AM   #589
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Quick show of hands here... how many people here could afford to spend $5 million on lawyers if you should happen to get into legal problems? I rather suspect few people here could. Yet poor old flynn was somehow able to muster up the cash.
How many people have, I think, multiple nation-wide fundraisers for their legal defense fund?
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Old 28th May 2020, 08:09 AM   #590
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
What Flynn allegedly said in his interview is a material fact, and the ONLY evidence regarding what he said is the testimony of FBI agents, since there is no recording of what he said. So yeah, their credibility rather directly affects their presentation of material facts.
Is anyone disputing the testimony of the interview by the FBI agents?
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Old 28th May 2020, 08:29 AM   #591
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Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
Following your attorney's advice. Also said by Flynn under penalty of perjury


“I agreed to plead guilty...because of the intense pressure from the Special Counsel’s Office, which included a threat to indict my son Michael…C&B assured me [on Nov 30, 2017], that if I accepted the plea, my son Michael would be left in peace”
'They did have other charges they could have brought and did bring against others' isn't the argument for undue persecution you think it is. It certainly doesn't support your argument that because others have plead guilty to crimes they didn't commit then Flynn's testimony that he lied isn't good evidence he lied.
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Old 28th May 2020, 08:30 AM   #592
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
You might think that supports the idea that Flynn was railroaded, but it really doesn't.

Quick show of hands here... how many people here could afford to spend $5 million on lawyers if you should happen to get into legal problems? I rather suspect few people here could. Yet poor old flynn was somehow able to muster up the cash.

From: A run-down of Flynn's recent income (from Politico).

And even after all his big legal fees, he STILL supposedly has ~$1 million in assets.

So yes, Flynn could afford top notch legal representation, and he used his resources to do just that. And he could afford it better than the majority of people who end up pleading guilty in court.
Wrong. You obviously haven't run the numbers or dates. This document is from 02/11/2017. As Flynn resigned after this date, the bill is post this disclosure. The bill of 5 million (excluding recent legal manuvers) as of April 2020 had only been paid off to the tune of 3.5 million. So even all his assets wouldn't cover the rest of the bill. And that is presuming they weren't used in the 3.5 million of the 5 million that has been paid to date.
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Old 28th May 2020, 08:33 AM   #593
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
How many people have, I think, multiple nation-wide fundraisers for their legal defense fund?
They have one defense fund that I understand, and that's because contrary to popular believe here, if you run the numbers, he can't afford the bill. How many people here? Probably none in this bunch, but I believe Strzok, Page, McCabe all had them. I don't see a problem with supporters pitching in on either side.
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Old 28th May 2020, 08:43 AM   #594
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
'They did have other charges they could have brought and did bring against others' isn't the argument for undue persecution you think it is. It certainly doesn't support your argument that because others have plead guilty to crimes they didn't commit then Flynn's testimony that he lied isn't good evidence he lied.
If the charges have no merit it most certainly is undue persecution. Flynn's testimony that he lied when pleading guilty to lying is no different than anyone who pleads guilty to a crime they (supposedly) didn't commit.
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Old 28th May 2020, 08:48 AM   #595
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Legal bills, Hillary Clinton's emails, yada yada yada. Buncha distraction nonsense.

Quote:
THE COURT: Do you wish to challenge the circumstances on which you were interviewed by the FBI?
THE DEFENDANT: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Do you understand that by maintaining your guilty plea and continuing with sentencing, you will give up your right forever to challenge the circumstances under which you were interviewed?
THE DEFENDANT: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Do you have any concerns that you entered your guilty plea before you or your attorneys were able to review information that could have been helpful to your defense?
THE DEFENDANT: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: At the time of your January 24th, 2017 interview with the FBI, were you not aware that lying to FBI investigators was a federal crime?
THE DEFENDANT: I was not -- I was aware.
THE COURT: You were aware?
THE DEFENDANT: Yeah.
THE COURT: Your sentencing memorandum also states that you pled guilty before certain, quote, revelations that certain FBI officials involved in the January the 24th interview were themselves being investigated for misconduct, end quote. Do you seek an opportunity to withdraw your plea in light of those revelations?
THE DEFENDANT: I do not, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Now, again, at any time -- I
should have said this before I started asking questions, but knowing what I was going to do, to have this colloquy with you, I've made arrangements for a private room for you and your attorneys to talk about any of these questions and your answers. So, even though I've taken a number of answers from you, if you want -- if you want that opportunity to speak privately with your attorneys, then I'll certainly afford you that opportunity as well. Would you like to do that?
THE DEFENDANT: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Are you satisfied with the services provided by your attorneys?
THE DEFENDANT: I am.
THE COURT: In certain special circumstances, I have over the years appointed an independent attorney to speak with a defendant, review the defendant's file, and conduct necessary research to render a second opinion for a defendant. Do you want the Court to consider appointing an independent attorney for you in this case to give you a second opinion?
THE DEFENDANT: I do not, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Do you feel that you were competent and
capable of entering into a guilty plea when you pled guilty on December 1st, 2017?
THE DEFENDANT: I do, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Do you understand the nature of the charges against you and the consequences of pleading guilty?
THE DEFENDANT: I do understand, Your Honor.
THE COURT: And that was covered extensively by Judge Contreras. I've read the transcript.
Are you continuing to accept responsibility for your false statements?
THE DEFENDANT: I am, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Do you still want to plead guilty, or do you want me to postpone this matter, give you a chance to speak with your attorneys further, either in the courtroom or privately at their office or elsewhere, and pick another day for a status conference? And I'm happy to do that.
THE DEFENDANT: I appreciate that, but no, Your Honor.
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Old 28th May 2020, 09:04 AM   #596
TahiniBinShawarma
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Legal bills, Hillary Clinton's emails, yada yada yada. Buncha distraction nonsense.
Yep, first time in the history of jurisprudence that anyone ever pleaded guilty to a crime they didn't commit.
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Old 28th May 2020, 09:28 AM   #597
carlitos
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I guess $5 million doesn’t buy quality counsel like it used to.
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Old 28th May 2020, 09:41 AM   #598
tyr_13
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Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
If the charges have no merit it most certainly is undue persecution.
They did think they had merit though. More importantly, an expert in this process like Flynn thought they had enough merit. It wasn't a bluff, even if they ended up being wrong about the strength of their case.

Quote:
Flynn's testimony that he lied when pleading guilty to lying is no different than anyone who pleads guilty to a crime they (supposedly) didn't commit.
Why? Again, you're not connecting the dots. You're saying they're the same without identifying how they are the same in any way that matters. It's getting to the point of 'horses have four legs and so do cats' reasoning. This is because the specific merits of the Flynn case mean they simply are not the same. The closest you have come is 'it costs a lot of money to defend yourself', but even then Flynn's resources mitigate this much more than almost anyone else on earth.
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Old 28th May 2020, 09:57 AM   #599
Frank Newgent
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Originally Posted by tyr_13
Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
If the charges have no merit it most certainly is undue persecution.
They did think they had merit though. More importantly, an expert in this process like Flynn thought they had enough merit. It wasn't a bluff, even if they ended up being wrong about the strength of their case.
.
Who's "they"?

Barr's Justice Department has argued both ways in this case. What made him change sides, anyhow?
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Old 28th May 2020, 10:27 AM   #600
TahiniBinShawarma
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
They did think they had merit though. More importantly, an expert in this process like Flynn thought they had enough merit. It wasn't a bluff, even if they ended up being wrong about the strength of their case.



Why? Again, you're not connecting the dots. You're saying they're the same without identifying how they are the same in any way that matters. It's getting to the point of 'horses have four legs and so do cats' reasoning. This is because the specific merits of the Flynn case mean they simply are not the same. The closest you have come is 'it costs a lot of money to defend yourself', but even then Flynn's resources mitigate this much more than almost anyone else on earth.
Flynn was not an expert on FARA, not sure why you think that, and I'm sure you have no cite for it.

If I were arguing the number of legs of each animal it would certainly have merit. People plead guilty to crimes they didn't commit. Flynn claims he didn't commit the crime, just like others. Not sure why you think "it's different when Flynn does it."

I doubt Flynn would be convicted on the merits of the government's case that he lied to the interviewing agents.
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