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Tags court cases , donald trump , Michael Flynn , perjury cases , Robert Mueller , William Barr

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Old 28th May 2020, 10:28 AM   #601
TahiniBinShawarma
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Originally Posted by Frank Newgent View Post
Who's "they"?

Barr's Justice Department has argued both ways in this case. What made him change sides, anyhow?
Jensen as has already been discussed.
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Old 28th May 2020, 10:35 AM   #602
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
I guess $5 million doesnt buy quality counsel like it used to.

Not when they are conflicted because they handled the filings a prosecutor is threatening to charge you with.
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Old 28th May 2020, 11:34 AM   #603
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Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
Jensen as has already been discussed.
But not in any way that answers the question.
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Old 28th May 2020, 12:26 PM   #604
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If Flynn wasn't an expert on FARA, he was not doing his due diligence with his company.
Stop making ludicrous arguments.
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Old 28th May 2020, 12:36 PM   #605
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
If Flynn wasn't an expert on FARA, he was not doing his due diligence with his company.
Stop making ludicrous arguments.

So I guess you arent going to post evidence he was an expert in FARA filings?
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Old 28th May 2020, 01:16 PM   #606
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Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
So I guess you arent going to post evidence he was an expert in FARA filings?
I provided evidence that ignorance is no defense.
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Old 28th May 2020, 01:23 PM   #607
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I provided evidence that ignorance is no defense.

Actually, your claim was Flynn was an expert in FARA. Nice try though. It's ok that you agree with me that he was actually ignorant.
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Old 28th May 2020, 01:33 PM   #608
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Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
Actually, your claim was Flynn was an expert in FARA. Nice try though. It's ok that you agree with me that he was actually ignorant.
No, I did not.
I said that Flynn needed to know about FARA, and if he didn't it is evidence that he considered himself to be above the law.
Lame try by you.

You still haven't answered on whether you think Trump will give Flynn a sweeping Pardon.
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Old 28th May 2020, 02:13 PM   #609
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I provided evidence that ignorance is no defense.
Actually, your claim was Flynn was an expert in FARA. Nice try though. It's ok that you agree with me that he was actually ignorant.
No, I did not.
I said that Flynn needed to know about FARA, and if he didn't it is evidence that he considered himself to be above the law.
Lame try by you.

You still haven't answered on whether you think Trump will give Flynn a sweeping Pardon.
Sorry, you're both wrong. TSB is wrong because TGZ didn't say that Flynn was an expert in FARA, and TGZ is wrong because he didn't say he needed to know about FARA. TGZ said he needed to be an expert on FARA. So TSB's mistake was that the claim was about an obligation, not necessarily the actual state of affairs, and TGZ's mistake is that his initial claim was about expertise, not simply knowledge.

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
If Flynn wasn't an expert on FARA, he was not doing his due diligence with his company.
Of course, this claim is suspect to begin with. Expertise on stuff like this is why you hire lawyers, so that you DON'T have to become an expert yourself.
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Old 28th May 2020, 02:17 PM   #610
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
No, I did not.
I said that Flynn needed to know about FARA, and if he didn't it is evidence that he considered himself to be above the law.
Lame try by you.

You still haven't answered on whether you think Trump will give Flynn a sweeping Pardon.
Quite right, that was tyr 13 who said

"More importantly, an expert in this process like Flynn thought they had enough merit."

My apologies.
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Old 28th May 2020, 02:21 PM   #611
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I provided evidence that ignorance is no defense.
I didn't say ignorance was a defense. I said Flynn was not an expert. That's why he initially hired Covington and Burling to begin with. It's also why a conflict arose when the Mueller team threatened him with FARA violations.
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Old 28th May 2020, 02:33 PM   #612
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
No, I did not.
I said that Flynn needed to know about FARA, and if he didn't it is evidence that he considered himself to be above the law.
Lame try by you.

You still haven't answered on whether you think Trump will give Flynn a sweeping Pardon.

No, I do not think Flynn will get a pardon. The appellate court will order Sullivan to dismiss the charges with prejudice. The FARA case will not take place on account of lack of evidence as the judge in Bijan Rafiekian's case ruled.
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Old 28th May 2020, 02:44 PM   #613
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
No, I did not.
I said that Flynn needed to know about FARA, and if he didn't it is evidence that he considered himself to be above the law.
Lame try by you.
.
Or he trusted Covington and Burling who handled his FARA dealings.
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Old 28th May 2020, 03:04 PM   #614
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If I were named by the President as the NSA, and simultaneously writing op eds for the Turkish government without disclosing my pay, Id maybe ask a friend to look into FARA.
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Old 28th May 2020, 03:50 PM   #615
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Originally Posted by Frank Newgent View Post
Who's "they"?

Barr's Justice Department has argued both ways in this case. What made him change sides, anyhow?
In this case it was the office of the special prosecutor.

Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
Flynn was not an expert on FARA, not sure why you think that, and I'm sure you have no cite for it.

If I were arguing the number of legs of each animal it would certainly have merit. People plead guilty to crimes they didn't commit. Flynn claims he didn't commit the crime, just like others. Not sure why you think "it's different when Flynn does it."

I doubt Flynn would be convicted on the merits of the government's case that he lied to the interviewing agents.
I wasn't referring specifically to FARA and it wasn't the only other thing Flynn could have been on the hook for, but also, yes that too.

Flynn was the director of the DIA for two years who knew exactly how surveillance, unmasking, and SHOULD have known how things like FARA worked. If he was NOT an expert (although as I need to spell everything out, no, not AS much an expert as a lawyer) then he was even worse at the job than reports indicate. (He was described as 'chaotic' and 'insubordinate'.)

And this still doesn't support your claim. What mechanisms were railroading Flynn? He had money, person experience, powerful connections, and everything else needed to know how to deal with this if he were innocent.
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Old 28th May 2020, 03:52 PM   #616
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
If I were named by the President as the NSA, and simultaneously writing op eds for the Turkish government without disclosing my pay, Id maybe ask a friend to look into FARA.
Fun fact: The Emoluments Clause also applies to retired military. Flynn can't lawfully get money from a foreign government without express permission of Congress.

There are so many levels of not just wrong but unlawful to Flynn's actions it is difficult to even pretend to take most of these objections seriously.
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Old 28th May 2020, 04:45 PM   #617
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
If I were named by the President as the NSA, and simultaneously writing op eds for the Turkish government without disclosing my pay, Id maybe ask a friend to look into FARA.
Ok, so?
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Old 28th May 2020, 04:57 PM   #618
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Fun fact: The Emoluments Clause also applies to retired military. Flynn can't lawfully get money from a foreign government without express permission of Congress.

There are so many levels of not just wrong but unlawful to Flynn's actions it is difficult to even pretend to take most of these objections seriously.
Flynn didn't take money from Turkey, he was paid by businessman Ekim Alptekin. This is why the case against Bijan Rafiekian was thrown out. Flynn didn't take money from Russia, he was paid by Leading Authorities, a private firm that arranges speaking events.
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Old 28th May 2020, 05:02 PM   #619
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
If I were named by the President as the NSA, and simultaneously writing op eds for the Turkish government without disclosing my pay, Id maybe ask a friend to look into FARA.
And if you weren't paid by a foreign gov't you'd file under the Lobbying Disclosure Act, which is what Flynn did.
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Old 28th May 2020, 05:18 PM   #620
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
In this case it was the office of the special prosecutor.



I wasn't referring specifically to FARA and it wasn't the only other thing Flynn could have been on the hook for

Do tell, what else could he be on the hook for? Don't be shy.
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Old 28th May 2020, 05:23 PM   #621
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Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma
Originally Posted by Frank Newgent View Post
Who's "they"?

Barr's Justice Department has argued both ways in this case. What made him change sides, anyhow?
Jensen as has already been discussed.
What specifically changed, I don't know. You don't, either?
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Old 28th May 2020, 05:40 PM   #622
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Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
Yep, first time in the history of jurisprudence that anyone ever pleaded guilty to a crime they didn't commit.
Flynn and his high-priced help are naive dupes ready to give in at the slightest pressure. Yeah, that's the ticket.
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Old 28th May 2020, 05:47 PM   #623
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Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
Flynn was not an expert on FARA, not sure why you think that, and I'm sure you have no cite for it.

If I were arguing the number of legs of each animal it would certainly have merit. People plead guilty to crimes they didn't commit. Flynn claims he didn't commit the crime, just like others. Not sure why you think "it's different when Flynn does it."

I doubt Flynn would be convicted on the merits of the government's case that he lied to the interviewing agents.
But he DID admit to committing the crime, after a long spell to consider the ramifications. It's not like he was charged and forced to plead after just 10 seconds of permitted time to consider what he was doing. He and his counsel agreed to the charge.

Are you expecting us to believe he's a little child against adults, with children for lawyers?
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Old 28th May 2020, 05:58 PM   #624
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Sorry, you're both wrong. TSB is wrong because TGZ didn't say that Flynn was an expert in FARA, and TGZ is wrong because he didn't say he needed to know about FARA. TGZ said he needed to be an expert on FARA. So TSB's mistake was that the claim was about an obligation, not necessarily the actual state of affairs, and TGZ's mistake is that his initial claim was about expertise, not simply knowledge.



Of course, this claim is suspect to begin with. Expertise on stuff like this is why you hire lawyers, so that you DON'T have to become an expert yourself.
So, the lawyers keep their expertise and advice to themselves? Nver tell their client the results of why they were retained? Sounds like a scenario based around plausible deniability. FFS, any concerned and competent player would acquaint himself with at least the rudiments of any laws which could land him in hot water.

Again, you lot of fervent apologists are banking on the brain-dead dolt hypothesis. Sheesh.
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Old 28th May 2020, 06:00 PM   #625
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Flynn and his high-priced help are naive dupes ready to give in at the slightest pressure. Yeah, that's the ticket.
I'm not sure why you would think that.
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Old 28th May 2020, 06:01 PM   #626
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Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
Do tell, what else could he be on the hook for? Don't be shy.
Again, you first. You keep trying to shift to picking details out of my posts to go on tangentially but you still have only identified a single factor that leads innocent people to plead guilty, which doesn't even apply to Flynn, let alone attach those factors to the Flynn case.

If you're stepping away from the 'Flynn's sworn testimony isn't good evidence' claim I'll gladly move on to other ones. But I don't think you have.

Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
But he DID admit to committing the crime, after a long spell to consider the ramifications. It's not like he was charged and forced to plead after just 10 seconds of permitted time to consider what he was doing. He and his counsel agreed to the charge.

Are you expecting us to believe he's a little child against adults, with children for lawyers?
Don't do the legwork for them. Let them come up with the factors that might be salient. There are so many factors and dirty tricks that lead people to plead guilty when they are not, and yet none so far actually apply here.

We're already to the point of, 'sworn testimony about yourself against self-interest isn't good evidence about yourself,' and I actually want to see how deep this goes. Do all admissions against self-interests get thrown out now? Or do we simply stop privileging them and allowing them to bypass hearsay rules?

It's an interesting 'theory' of justice.
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Old 28th May 2020, 06:07 PM   #627
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
But he DID admit to committing the crime, after a long spell to consider the ramifications. It's not like he was charged and forced to plead after just 10 seconds of permitted time to consider what he was doing. He and his counsel agreed to the charge.

Are you expecting us to believe he's a little child against adults, with children for lawyers?
Yes, he admitted to a crime he (supposedly) didn't commit, just like plenty of people admit to crimes they didn't commit. Not sure why you think I'm

"expecting us to believe he's a little child against adults, with children for lawyers?"

I think that characterization is as ridiculous and not serious at all.
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Old 28th May 2020, 06:16 PM   #628
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
But he DID admit to committing the crime, after a long spell to consider the ramifications. It's not like he was charged and forced to plead after just 10 seconds of permitted time to consider what he was doing. He and his counsel agreed to the charge.

Are you expecting us to believe he's a little child against adults, with children for lawyers?
Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Again, you first. You keep trying to shift to picking details out of my posts to go on tangentially but you still have only identified a single factor that leads innocent people to plead guilty, which doesn't even apply to Flynn, let alone attach those factors to the Flynn case.
I'm picking details because you keep generalizing claims and I'm curious. What single factor are you referring to?

His 5 million dollar attorney bill when his financial disclosure showed assets of 1 million, or the advice of his attorney's, or preventing his son from getting charged as well? Because, by my count that's 3. Now while that may sound unreasonable to you as to why someone would plead guilty to a crime they didn't commit, I would disagree and say those are pretty good reasons.
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Old 28th May 2020, 07:11 PM   #629
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Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post




And if you weren't paid by a foreign gov't you'd file under the Lobbying Disclosure Act, which is what Flynn did.


Date of op ed and date he filed, please.
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Old 28th May 2020, 07:36 PM   #630
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Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
I'm picking details because you keep generalizing claims and I'm curious. What single factor are you referring to?

His 5 million dollar attorney bill when his financial disclosure showed assets of 1 million, or the advice of his attorney's, or preventing his son from getting charged as well? Because, by my count that's 3. Now while that may sound unreasonable to you as to why someone would plead guilty to a crime they didn't commit, I would disagree and say those are pretty good reasons.
No, that's only one, and it doesn't even apply to Flynn.

People do plead guilty to crimes they did not commit because they cannot afford adequate representation to plead innocent with any chance of success. Flynn paid five million dollars. It does NOT take five mil to plead guilty due to inadequate representation. It does take five mil to get off more serious charges. That he was ABLE to get five mil in representation in the first place is a way this case is drastically different from normal cases where people who are innocent plead guilty.

Following the advice of attorney (in this case one of the best firms on earth) is consistent with pleading guilty when you are innocent, but it's also completely consistent with pleading guilty because you are guilty. Again, it doesn't take five mil to just plead guilty. Even in cases where it's on the advice of attorney's it's still tied with point 1 in that you can't afford adequate representation. It's the same point, and it still doesn't apply to Flynn. Again, Flynn has inside knowledge on how counter-intel is gathered and handled. He had more insight than the overwhelming majority of defendants. Even with this insight and high-caliber representation he decided to plead guilty.

The possible charges against his son is not similar to innocent people who plead guilty because there is no indication that they were bluffing. It wasn't bad faith, as their attempt at charging others shows. They thought they had a case, but would rather secure the more egregious bad actor, Flynn. Again, this is consistent with a guilty person pleading guilty. The risk of his son going down for crimes is not undo duress. Baseless or bad faith threats against loved ones is a reason innocent people plead guilty, which isn't the case here.
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Old 28th May 2020, 07:38 PM   #631
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Date of op ed and date he filed, please.
Sept 2016


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...yCfI_PsABSPWcX
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Old 28th May 2020, 07:43 PM   #632
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Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post


Thanks for the link! Op Ed came out on Election Day, November 8, 2016.

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Old 28th May 2020, 08:06 PM   #633
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Date of op ed and date he filed, please.
Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
No, that's only one, and it doesn't even apply to Flynn.

People do plead guilty to crimes they did not commit because they cannot afford adequate representation to plead innocent with any chance of success. Flynn paid five million dollars. It does NOT take five mil to plead guilty due to inadequate representation. It does take five mil to get off more serious charges. That he was ABLE to get five mil in representation in the first place is a way this case is drastically different from normal cases where people who are innocent plead guilty.

Following the advice of attorney (in this case one of the best firms on earth) is consistent with pleading guilty when you are innocent, but it's also completely consistent with pleading guilty because you are guilty. Again, it doesn't take five mil to just plead guilty. Even in cases where it's on the advice of attorney's it's still tied with point 1 in that you can't afford adequate representation. It's the same point, and it still doesn't apply to Flynn. Again, Flynn has inside knowledge on how counter-intel is gathered and handled. He had more insight than the overwhelming majority of defendants. Even with this insight and high-caliber representation he decided to plead guilty.

The possible charges against his son is not similar to innocent people who plead guilty because there is no indication that they were bluffing. It wasn't bad faith, as their attempt at charging others shows. They thought they had a case, but would rather secure the more egregious bad actor, Flynn. Again, this is consistent with a guilty person pleading guilty. The risk of his son going down for crimes is not undo duress. Baseless or bad faith threats against loved ones is a reason innocent people plead guilty, which isn't the case here.
Wrong, at the time of his guilty pleading he had not paid 5 million dollars. He still hasn't paid 5 million dollars.

Never said they were bluffing about charging his son. Don't know where you get that idea.

And none of what you posted proves he was guilty, or that he didn't plead guilty to a crime he didn't commit. Just as my (his actually)reasons as to why he may have pleded guilty don't prove he is innocent.
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Old 28th May 2020, 08:07 PM   #634
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Thanks for the link! Op Ed came out on Election Day, November 8, 2016.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...fa66793f0a.jpg

And you ignored paragraph 2.
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Old 28th May 2020, 08:12 PM   #635
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Thanks for the link! Op Ed came out on Election Day, November 8, 2016.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...fa66793f0a.jpg
This is why any FARA case would be a failure against Flynn. He wasn't paid by z foreign gov't. They filed a timely LDA for their work.
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Old 28th May 2020, 08:14 PM   #636
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Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
Wrong, at the time of his guilty pleading he had not paid 5 million dollars. He still hasn't paid 5 million dollars.

Never said they were bluffing about charging his son. Don't know where you get that idea.

And none of what you posted proves he was guilty, or that he didn't plead guilty to a crime he didn't commit. Just as my (his actually)reasons as to why he may have pleded guilty don't prove he is innocent.
*sigh* It's immaterial that he hasn't paid it yet, he was still able to secure five mil in representation.

I got that idea because it would have to be the case for it to be like other cases where innocent people plead guilty.

Proof wasn't the standard. His pleading guilty in these conditions is good evidence for his guilt. Other evidence was shown that convinced the judge to accept the plea, but also to be livid that Flynn was not charged with more.

His guilty plea is evidence, good evidence in fact. It is not like other cases where innocent people plead guilty.
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Old 28th May 2020, 08:20 PM   #637
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
*sigh* It's immaterial that he hasn't paid it yet, he was still able to secure five mil in representation.

I got that idea because it would have to be the case for it to be like other cases where innocent people plead guilty.

Proof Other evidence was shown that convinced the judge to accept the plea, but also to be livid that Flynn was not charged with more.

Cite?
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Old 28th May 2020, 08:32 PM   #638
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
*sigh* It's immaterial that he hasn't paid it yet, he was still able to secure five mil in representation.

I got that idea because it would have to be the case for it to be like other cases where innocent people plead guilty.
You can move the goal posts all you want about his 5 million dollar bill with 1 million in assets. Im assuming because I don't know that the buld was paid from the Michael Flynn Defense Fund people donated to. The argument as to bluffing about charging his son and

"it would have to be the case for it to be like other cases where innocent people plead guilty."

I respect your opinion, but thats all it is as to why someone would plead guilty.
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Old 28th May 2020, 08:38 PM   #639
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post

Proof Other evidence was shown that convinced the judge to accept the plea, but also to be livid that Flynn was not charged with more.

I'd really like a cite for this assertion.
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Old 28th May 2020, 09:00 PM   #640
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I'm expecting any minute that the folk who jump on the Free Flynn bandwagon will be advocating for the overturning of thousands of convictions in which defendant had admitted guilt. Going back decades. Ya know, because, like, Justice, or something.

Or is it only a pressing issue when Donnie Drumpf stamps his toddler feets?
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