ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags court cases , donald trump , Michael Flynn , perjury cases , Robert Mueller , William Barr

Reply
Old 28th May 2020, 09:08 PM   #641
tyr_13
Penultimate Amazing
 
tyr_13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 16,321
Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
I'd really like a cite for this assertion.
Huh? You cited it already yourself. Documents like the 302s were turned over in 2018 in redacted form before Sullivan accepted the guilty plea. The judge did not just take Flynn's and the DOJ's word for it. The plea itself was not the entire basis of the case.
__________________
Circled nothing is still nothing.
"Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel
Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong
tyr_13 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th May 2020, 09:09 PM   #642
TahiniBinShawarma
Muse
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 616
Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
I'm expecting any minute that the folk who jump on the Free Flynn bandwagon will be advocating for the overturning of thousands of convictions in which defendant had admitted guilt. Going back decades. Ya know, because, like, Justice, or something.

Or is it only a pressing issue when Donnie Drumpf stamps his toddler feets?
Whataboutism doesn't work here, neither does ad hominem.
TahiniBinShawarma is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th May 2020, 09:09 PM   #643
tyr_13
Penultimate Amazing
 
tyr_13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 16,321
Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
You can move the goal posts all you want about his 5 million dollar bill with 1 million in assets. Im assuming because I don't know that the buld was paid from the Michael Flynn Defense Fund people donated to. The argument as to bluffing about charging his son and

"it would have to be the case for it to be like other cases where innocent people plead guilty."

I respect your opinion, but thats all it is as to why someone would plead guilty.
I can't parse this right now, and I'm not sure if it's my tiredness or the wording.
__________________
Circled nothing is still nothing.
"Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel
Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong
tyr_13 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th May 2020, 09:10 PM   #644
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 13,182
It seems Sullivan is taking a page from the Trump/SCOTUS playbook to see if he can push the decision past the November election.
__________________
Prediction
https://xkcd.com/2370/
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th May 2020, 09:11 PM   #645
TahiniBinShawarma
Muse
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 616
Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Huh? You cited it already yourself. Documents like the 302s were turned over in 2018 in redacted form before Sullivan accepted the guilty plea. The judge did not just take Flynn's and the DOJ's word for it. The plea itself was not the entire basis of the case.

I'd like a cite for


"Proof Other evidence was shown that convinced the judge to accept the plea, but also to be livid that Flynn was not charged with more."


That charged with more part, like what, don't be shy.
TahiniBinShawarma is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th May 2020, 09:12 PM   #646
TahiniBinShawarma
Muse
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 616
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
It seems Sullivan is taking a page from the Trump/SCOTUS playbook to see if he can push the decision past the November election.

Why would he do that?
TahiniBinShawarma is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th May 2020, 09:14 PM   #647
TahiniBinShawarma
Muse
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 616
Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
I can't parse this right now, and I'm not sure if it's my tiredness or the wording.

Please don't, your subjective opinion about people pleading guilty to crimes they supposedly didn't commit really doesn't amount to much.
TahiniBinShawarma is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th May 2020, 09:15 PM   #648
tyr_13
Penultimate Amazing
 
tyr_13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 16,321
Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
I'd like a cite for


"Proof Other evidence was shown that convinced the judge to accept the plea, but also to be livid that Flynn was not charged with more."


That charged with more part, like what, don't be shy.
Sullivan pressed if Flynn could have been charged in the case he was a cooperating witness in, then improperly asked about treason.

This is pretty basic. The way you've been talking I thought you were more familiar with the case.

I recommend going to Lawfare and reading their 'Michael Flynn' tagged articles.

EDIT: Specific article about the day the plea was accepted and sentencing was put off where Sullivan asked about other charges.

EDIT 2: You've also misquoted me by leaving in the word 'proof' and deleting a lot of other stuff to get the sentence you want. I figured you were aware from the box quote and it was a mistake, but you've left it in for the in line quote too.
__________________
Circled nothing is still nothing.
"Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel
Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong

Last edited by tyr_13; 28th May 2020 at 09:18 PM.
tyr_13 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th May 2020, 09:18 PM   #649
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 13,182
Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
Why would he do that?
To get a team of prosecutors to present the case who haven't been corrupted by Barr.
__________________
Prediction
https://xkcd.com/2370/
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th May 2020, 09:19 PM   #650
TahiniBinShawarma
Muse
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 616
Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Sullivan pressed if Flynn could have been charged in the case he was a cooperating witness in, then improperly asked about treason.

This is pretty basic. The way you've been talking I thought you were more familiar with the case.

I recommend going to Lawfare and reading their 'Michael Flynn' tagged articles.

EDIT: Specific article about the day the plea was accepted and sentencing was put off where Sullivan asked about other charges.
Obviously selective reading on your part https://www.google.com/amp/s/lawandc...d-treason/amp/
TahiniBinShawarma is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th May 2020, 09:21 PM   #651
tyr_13
Penultimate Amazing
 
tyr_13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 16,321
Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
Please don't, your subjective opinion about people pleading guilty to crimes they supposedly didn't commit really doesn't amount to much.
*sigh* They're worth as much as yours without support, and you're the one making the positive claim. Thus if this is the standard you want and you say my argument is insufficient than yours would have to be too.

I mean really, take a few deep breaths and try your argument again.
__________________
Circled nothing is still nothing.
"Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel
Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong
tyr_13 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th May 2020, 09:22 PM   #652
TahiniBinShawarma
Muse
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 616
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
To get a team of prosecutors to present the case who haven't been corrupted by Barr.

Any evidence prosecutors were corrupted by bar? Or just a hunch on your part?
TahiniBinShawarma is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th May 2020, 09:23 PM   #653
tyr_13
Penultimate Amazing
 
tyr_13's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 16,321
Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
Obviously selective reading on your part https://www.google.com/amp/s/lawandc...d-treason/amp/
That information is in the article I linked to, and the treason question was explicitly called improper by me, and not the additional charge I referenced.

Seriously, collect your thoughts.
__________________
Circled nothing is still nothing.
"Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel
Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong
tyr_13 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th May 2020, 09:29 PM   #654
TahiniBinShawarma
Muse
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 616
Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
That information is in the article I linked to, and the treason question was explicitly called improper by me, and not the additional charge I referenced.

Seriously, collect your thoughts.
You haven't referenced any charge. Let me know when you think of one. What was he "livid" about?

Last edited by TahiniBinShawarma; 28th May 2020 at 09:32 PM.
TahiniBinShawarma is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th May 2020, 10:11 PM   #655
TahiniBinShawarma
Muse
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 616
Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
That information is in the article I linked to, and the treason question was explicitly called improper by me, and not the additional charge I referenced.

Seriously, collect your thoughts.
The only other charge would be the one U.S. District Judge Anthony Trenga threw out for lack of evidence against Flynn's business partner for FARA violation, and a Logan Act violation was never considered a reality.
TahiniBinShawarma is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th May 2020, 08:28 AM   #656
TahiniBinShawarma
Muse
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 616
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
But not in any way that answers the question.
https://int.nyt.com/data/documenthel...mized/full.pdf

If you read the gov't motion to dismiss based on Jensen's recommendation, it states pretty clearly what the issues are.

1. The gov't doesn't believe it could prove Flynn lied because

"In his interview, Mr.Flynn offered either equivocal (“I don’t know”)or indirect responses,or claimed to not remember the matter in question. See
United States v. Ring, 811F. Supp. 2d 359, 384 (D.D.C.2011) (holding that “faulty memory” is not enough to establish “willful” lie absent proof the defendant indeed remembered the matter in question). Combining the vague substance of the answers, the FBI’s own preliminary estimation
of Mr.Flynn’s truthfulness, the inconsistent FBI records as to the actual questions and statements made, and Director Comey’s own sentiment that the case was a “close one,” Ex.5 at 9, the evidentiary problems that have emerged create reasonable doubt as to whether Mr.Flynn
knowingly and willingly lied to investigators during the interview."

2. Even if they could prove he lied

" a false statement must still “be capable of influencing an agency
function or decision,” United States v. Moore,612 F.3d 698, 702 (D.C.Cir. 2010) (citations and quotation mark omitted). Even if he told the truth, Mr.Flynn’s statements could not have conceivably “influenced” an investigation that had neither a legitimate counterintelligence nor
criminal purpose. "

I know you will dispute that, so pick one, counterintelligence, Logan Act, or FARA, or be creative. The full filing disposed of those arguments.
TahiniBinShawarma is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th May 2020, 08:39 AM   #657
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
 
thaiboxerken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 31,381
Remember when "conservatives" used to say that betraying the country was wrong? Now they are here defending traitors.
__________________
1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it.
thaiboxerken is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th May 2020, 08:41 AM   #658
TahiniBinShawarma
Muse
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 616
Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Remember when "conservatives" used to say that betraying the country was wrong? Now they are here defending traitors.
Remember when the people at international skeptics forum used to back up assertions like "traitors" with things like evidence and cites? Good times.
TahiniBinShawarma is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th May 2020, 08:45 AM   #659
thaiboxerken
Penultimate Amazing
 
thaiboxerken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 31,381
Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
Remember when the people at international skeptics forum used to back up assertions like "traitors" with things like evidence and cites? Good times.
With 63 posts under your belt, how would you know?
Edited by Agatha:  Don't make sock accusations in-thread, please


Also, Flynn admitted guilt about his ties to Turkey. He's a traitor, and it's proven.
__________________
1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it.

Last edited by Agatha; 30th May 2020 at 07:09 AM.
thaiboxerken is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th May 2020, 08:52 AM   #660
TahiniBinShawarma
Muse
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 616
Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
With 63 posts under your belt, how would you know?
Edited by Agatha:  Edited to match quote


Also, Flynn admitted guilt about his ties to Turkey. He's a traitor, and it's proven.
So no cite for the traitor remark? Or his ties to Turkey? Remember when the posters at international skeptics forum avoided ad hominem? Good times.

Last edited by Agatha; 30th May 2020 at 07:10 AM.
TahiniBinShawarma is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th May 2020, 10:14 AM   #661
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 30,204
Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
So no cite for the traitor remark? Or his ties to Turkey? Remember when the posters at international skeptics forum avoided ad hominem? Good times.
Rule of So.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th May 2020, 10:16 AM   #662
Minoosh
Penultimate Amazing
 
Minoosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 11,633
Lordy, I don't know all the ins and outs but IIRC the judge in the Flynn case said (paraphrase) "I don't know if I can discuss this in open court, but your violations potentially border on treason." Implying Flynn got off lightly for the plea agreement. The first article I found on this is from the Washington Post (an analysis piece) in about December 2018. It's paywalled and I can't copy a link because I was immediately redirected to the "subscribe now" screen. I just searched for Treason Flynn Sullivan and it came right up.

The Turkey dealings bother me because IIRC Flynn was hired by, or was enabling, wanna-be dictator Recep Erdogan, and I knew Erdogan desperately wanted to get his hands on his political enemy Fethullah Gülen, who is sheltering in Pennsylvania. I can well imagine Flynn working with Erdogan on that. Flynn talking to the Soviet ambassador I'm kind of "meh" on - he was working against current U.S. policy re: discussing sanctions, but it's doesn't shock me that they had chatted soon before the inauguration.

I don't know exactly why Judge Sullivan said what he did, but he was privy to more info than was presented in open court.

If the prosecutors tainted their own case I don't mind them being called out on it, even if Flynn is guilty as sin. Trump would probably have pardoned him anyway.
Minoosh is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th May 2020, 10:22 AM   #663
TahiniBinShawarma
Muse
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 616
Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Lordy, I don't know all the ins and outs but IIRC the judge in the Flynn case said (paraphrase) "I don't know if I can discuss this in open court, but your violations potentially border on treason." Implying Flynn got off lightly for the plea agreement. The first article I found on this is from the Washington Post (an analysis piece) in about December 2018. It's paywalled and I can't copy a link because I was immediately redirected to the "subscribe now" screen. I just searched for Treason Flynn Sullivan and it came right up.

The Turkey dealings bother me because IIRC Flynn was hired by, or was enabling, wanna-be dictator Recep Erdogan, and I knew Erdogan desperately wanted to get his hands on his political enemy Fethullah Gülen, who is sheltering in Pennsylvania. I can well imagine Flynn working with Erdogan on that. Flynn talking to the Soviet ambassador I'm kind of "meh" on - he was working against current U.S. policy re: discussing sanctions, but it's doesn't shock me that they had chatted soon before the inauguration.

I don't know exactly why Judge Sullivan said what he did, but he was privy to more info than was presented in open court.

If the prosecutors tainted their own case I don't mind them being called out on it, even if Flynn is guilty as sin. Trump would probably have pardoned him anyway.
You certainly don't know all the ins and outs.

The judge apologized for his treason comments.

Flynn did not work for the government of Turkey.

Flynn was neither working against US sanctions against the Soviets, or Russia.

Everything you claimed is wrong.
TahiniBinShawarma is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th May 2020, 10:25 AM   #664
TahiniBinShawarma
Muse
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 616
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Rule of So.
Seth Abramson tweets arent going to help against the facts. Is that why you've been so quiet?
TahiniBinShawarma is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th May 2020, 10:52 AM   #665
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 32,208
Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
With 63 posts under your belt, how would you know?
Edited by Agatha:  Don't make sock accusations in-thread, please
I've been trying to piece that together, as well.
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.

Last edited by Agatha; 30th May 2020 at 07:10 AM.
Upchurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th May 2020, 10:52 AM   #666
wareyin
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Georgia, USA
Posts: 7,927
Edited by Agatha:  Please do not speculate on sockpuppetry; report suspicions to the mod team

Last edited by Agatha; 29th May 2020 at 11:12 AM.
wareyin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th May 2020, 11:00 AM   #667
Minoosh
Penultimate Amazing
 
Minoosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 11,633
Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
You certainly don't know all the ins and outs.

The judge apologized for his treason comments.

Flynn did not work for the government of Turkey.

Flynn was neither working against US sanctions against the Soviets, or Russia.

Everything you claimed is wrong.
He had ended his involvement with Turkey in 2016. But:

Two ex-business associates of Michael Flynn charged in plot centered on Turkish cleric


In 2017 Flynn's firm retroactively registered as working on behalf of the Turkish government. Flynn claimed to have written a pro-Erdogan op-ed for The Hill solely on his own initiative. Which I mostly can believe: He's an authoritarian kind of guy, probably doesn't have much patience for democracy. His client was a Dutch firm doing research and producing a documentary on Gülen, and it was for $530,000. Not enough money to extract Gülen, just softening the ground for Erdogan's propaganda purposes. Plus perhaps providing a token honorarium for the op-ed.

From the Hill:

Quote:
In the op-ed, Flynn defended Erdogan from criticism of his crackdown on dissidents and labeled Gulen a “shady Islamic mullah” who “portrays himself as a moderate, but he is in fact a radical Islamist.”
None of this scandalizes me. People in and out of public life do these kinds of deals all the time. Erdogan is, or was, mostly considered an ally of the U.S. Flynn probably honestly believed that Gülen was a dangerous extremist. But it's nonsense to claim he never worked on behalf of Turkey.

Last edited by Minoosh; 29th May 2020 at 11:05 AM.
Minoosh is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th May 2020, 11:09 AM   #668
TahiniBinShawarma
Muse
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 616
Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Rule of So.
Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
He had ended his involvement with Turkey in 2016. But:

Two ex-business associates of Michael Flynn charged in plot centered on Turkish cleric


In 2017 Flynn's firm retroactively registered as working on behalf of the Turkish government. Flynn claimed to have written a pro-Erdogan op-ed for The Hill solely on his own initiative. Which I mostly can believe: He's an authoritarian kind of guy, probably doesn't have much patience for democracy. His client was a Dutch firm doing research and producing a documentary on Gülen, and it was for $530,000. Not enough money to extract Gülen, just softening the ground for Erdogan's propaganda purposes. Plus perhaps providing a token honorarium for the op-ed.

From the Hill:



None of this scandalizes me. People in and out of public life do these kinds of deals all the time. Erdogan is, or was, mostly considered an ally of the U.S. Flynn probably honestly believed that Gülen was a dangerous extremist. But it's nonsense to claim he never worked on behalf of Turkey.
Judge threw it out for lack of evidence. And that ignors his original filing under the LDA in 2016 because he wasn't paid by Turkey. He later filed FARA on advice of his attorny's just to be sure because the op ed could be helpful to Turkey. No laws broken and certainly not treason.
TahiniBinShawarma is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th May 2020, 11:11 AM   #669
TahiniBinShawarma
Muse
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 616
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I've been trying to piece that together, as well.

Quite the conspiratorial thinking.
TahiniBinShawarma is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th May 2020, 11:13 AM   #670
TahiniBinShawarma
Muse
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 616
Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Edited by Agatha:  edited previously moderated content


Edited by Agatha:  Edited response to moderated content

Last edited by Agatha; 30th May 2020 at 06:15 AM.
TahiniBinShawarma is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th May 2020, 11:32 AM   #671
Minoosh
Penultimate Amazing
 
Minoosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 11,633
Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
Judge threw it out for lack of evidence. And that ignors his original filing under the LDA in 2016 because he wasn't paid by Turkey. He later filed FARA on advice of his attorny's just to be sure because the op ed could be helpful to Turkey. No laws broken and certainly not treason.
And I don't care all that much about this. Not when we have a president openly lobbying for Russia and Saudi Arabia. It's clear Flynn thought his job was to git 'er done regarding anything at all on Trump's agenda. I don't for an instant doubt that there are back channels all over the place for shadow diplomacy and that both parties do it. If Flynn gets off on a technicality, hurray for him. In cases of alleged prosecutorial misconduct, I'm generally in favor of letting people off the hook based on technicalities. I probably wouldn't feel this way if a serial murderer or rapist were set free, but someone who wrote an op-ed in the D.C. press without letting on that he had marginal business dealings with the Turkish government doesn't begin to qualify IMO. Someone who said (paraphrase) "Hey Sergey, don't sweat the sanctions, you won't be sorry" is guilty only of indiscretion, not treason IMO. Actually I'm surprised a conversation was even necessary. Trump had probably already gotten word to Putin.

However, I think Erdogan is taking Turkey in the wrong direction. Not long ago Turkey was trying to secure a spot in the EU. It seems to be moving away from that goal now, a result that must please Putin.
Minoosh is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th May 2020, 11:44 AM   #672
TahiniBinShawarma
Muse
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 616
Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
And I don't care all that much about this. Not when we have a president openly lobbying for Russia and Saudi Arabia. It's clear Flynn thought his job was to git 'er done regarding anything at all on Trump's agenda. I don't for an instant doubt that there are back channels all over the place for shadow diplomacy and that both parties do it. If Flynn gets off on a technicality, hurray for him. In cases of alleged prosecutorial misconduct, I'm generally in favor of letting people off the hook based on technicalities. I probably wouldn't feel this way if a serial murderer or rapist were set free, but someone who wrote an op-ed in the D.C. press without letting on that he had marginal business dealings with the Turkish government doesn't begin to qualify IMO. Someone who said (paraphrase) "Hey Sergey, don't sweat the sanctions, you won't be sorry" is guilty only of indiscretion, not treason IMO. Actually I'm surprised a conversation was even necessary. Trump had probably already gotten word to Putin.

However, I think Erdogan is taking Turkey in the wrong direction. Not long ago Turkey was trying to secure a spot in the EU. It seems to be moving away from that goal now, a result that must please Putin.
Flynn had zero dealings with the Turkish gov't. That said, I'd love to see Erdogan thrown out on his ass. Your speculation of back channels lacks merit considering we know Kislyak and Kushner has a meeting about setting one up on Dec 1st after the election. There would be no need for one if they had had one already, which demolishes any pre election "collusion" or "conspiracy."
TahiniBinShawarma is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th May 2020, 12:13 PM   #673
TahiniBinShawarma
Muse
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 616
Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Someone who said (paraphrase) "Hey Sergey, don't sweat the sanctions, you won't be sorry" is guilty only of indiscretion, not treason IMO.
That's not what happened according to the record.
TahiniBinShawarma is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th May 2020, 12:14 PM   #674
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 13,182
Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
Flynn had zero dealings with the Turkish gov't. That said, I'd love to see Erdogan thrown out on his ass. Your speculation of back channels lacks merit considering we know Kislyak and Kushner has a meeting about setting one up on Dec 1st after the election. There would be no need for one if they had had one already, which demolishes any pre election "collusion" or "conspiracy."
So Turkey gave him a fortune for fun?
__________________
Prediction
https://xkcd.com/2370/
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th May 2020, 12:21 PM   #675
TahiniBinShawarma
Muse
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 616
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
So Turkey gave him a fortune for fun?
Turkey gave him nothing. Cite your source for Flynn being paid by Turkey.
TahiniBinShawarma is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th May 2020, 01:13 PM   #676
Lurch
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 1,550
Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Lordy, I don't know all the ins and outs but IIRC the judge in the Flynn case said (paraphrase) "I don't know if I can discuss this in open court, but your violations potentially border on treason." Implying Flynn got off lightly for the plea agreement. The first article I found on this is from the Washington Post (an analysis piece) in about December 2018. It's paywalled and I can't copy a link because I was immediately redirected to the "subscribe now" screen. I just searched for Treason Flynn Sullivan and it came right up.

The Turkey dealings bother me because IIRC Flynn was hired by, or was enabling, wanna-be dictator Recep Erdogan, and I knew Erdogan desperately wanted to get his hands on his political enemy Fethullah Gülen, who is sheltering in Pennsylvania. I can well imagine Flynn working with Erdogan on that. Flynn talking to the Soviet ambassador I'm kind of "meh" on - he was working against current U.S. policy re: discussing sanctions, but it's doesn't shock me that they had chatted soon before the inauguration.

I don't know exactly why Judge Sullivan said what he did, but he was privy to more info than was presented in open court.

If the prosecutors tainted their own case I don't mind them being called out on it, even if Flynn is guilty as sin. Trump would probably have pardoned him anyway.
Precisely.

Judge Sullivan has seen some bloody damning stuff. Yet here we have some CT enthusiasts with wadded panties breathlessly arguing the minutiae of a corrupt attempt at dismissal for a traitor who Trump feels the need to protect.

To the wadded panty set: Get all the facts before embarrassing yourselves.

When a law-abiding POTUS and a law-enforcing AG are in the driver's seat come January, soon enough thereafter we'll get a much fuller picture. Maybe Flynn will get the rightful treatment he deserves, unless he bolts to Russia or Turkey, where his interests seem to be more aligned.
Lurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th May 2020, 01:53 PM   #677
Minoosh
Penultimate Amazing
 
Minoosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 11,633
Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
Flynn had zero dealings with the Turkish gov't. That said, I'd love to see Erdogan thrown out on his ass. Your speculation of back channels lacks merit considering we know Kislyak and Kushner has a meeting about setting one up on Dec 1st after the election. There would be no need for one if they had had one already, which demolishes any pre election "collusion" or "conspiracy."
I don't see how setting up a meeting with an ambassador for after the election proves there were no meetings before the election. The opposite, if anything. I notice you have switched to talking about "pre election" meetings. Taking a look at that:

Mueller couldn't prove Trump-Russia collusion, but couldn't rule it out either. But it's silly to pretend that his kids didn't nibble at the bait of getting dirt on Hillary from government-connected Russians. That might have been the whole point of dangling the bait in the first place: To see if the Trump campaign would bite. I can imagine Russian operatives laughing about what a dumb**** Don Jr. was/is.

Russia knew quite well what to do to **** with U.S. elections, and it didn't require collusion with Trump or his spawn. Some light psy-ops on social media proved to be wildly successful at exploiting divisions within the U.S.
Minoosh is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th May 2020, 02:06 PM   #678
Minoosh
Penultimate Amazing
 
Minoosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 11,633
Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
When a law-abiding POTUS and a law-enforcing AG are in the driver's seat come January, soon enough thereafter we'll get a much fuller picture. Maybe Flynn will get the rightful treatment he deserves, unless he bolts to Russia or Turkey, where his interests seem to be more aligned.
I thought in another thread that you had resigned yourself to a Trump victory in November. Or maybe you were thinking the U.S. needs 4 more years of Trump to let this festering pimple on America's ass come to a head and pop on its own.

Forgive me if that wasn't you. It's kind of how I feel.
Minoosh is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th May 2020, 02:08 PM   #679
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 15,463
Originally Posted by TahiniBinShawarma View Post
Turkey gave him nothing. Cite your source for Flynn being paid by Turkey.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/10/u...nn-turkey.html

"WASHINGTON — The candidate he [Flynn] was advising last fall was running on a platform of America First. The client he was working for last fall was paying him more than $500,000 to put Turkey first.

Michael T. Flynn, who went from the campaign trail to the White House as President Trump’s first national security adviser, filed papers this week acknowledging that he worked as a foreign agent last year representing the interests of the Turkish government in a dispute with the United States.

His surprising admission, coming more than four months after the election, raised further questions about the rise and fall of a presidential confidant who was forced to resign after 24 days in office for withholding the full story of his communications with Russia’s ambassador. Even now, out of government and out of favor, Mr. Flynn and his contact with foreign figures presented a new headache for a White House eager to move on.

Mr. Flynn, a retired Army lieutenant general, registered as a lobbyist last year but did not file papers with the Justice Department registering as a foreign agent, providing a fuller understanding of his role, until Tuesday. While he did not work directly for the Turkish government, the firm that hired him, Inovo, is owned by a Turkish-American businessman with links to leaders in Ankara and asked him to work on an issue important to the government."


Just because the Turkish Government didn't directly pay Flynn does not mean that Turkey wasn't paying him. If I give Fred Bloggs $50 to pay you, its still me who is paying you, not Fred Bloggs!
__________________
"Woke" is a pejorative term used by racists, homophobes and misogynists to describe people who possess a fully functional moral compass.

If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list. This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th May 2020, 02:17 PM   #680
TahiniBinShawarma
Muse
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 616
Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Precisely.

Judge Sullivan has seen some bloody damning stuff. Yet here we have some CT enthusiasts with wadded panties breathlessly arguing the minutiae of a corrupt attempt at dismissal for a traitor who Trump feels the need to protect.

To the wadded panty set: .
You've posted nothing showing Sullivan has seen "bloody damning stuff." Which filing or hearing?

This has been repeatedly asserted. When asked for a cite, it always reverts to the sentencing hearing where treason was brought up that Sullivan apologized for, and the question of whether Flynn could have been charged in the Bijan Rafiekian case. That case was thrown out for lack of evidence.

So if you are refeering to THAT hearing, it's a nothing burger. If you are referring to something else, cite it.

Ad hominem not responded to.
TahiniBinShawarma is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:02 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.