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Old 23rd July 2020, 08:42 AM   #601
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Well they got their death panels now.

"Starr County Health Authority Dr. Jose Vazquez said Starr County Memorial Hospital, the county’s only hospital, on Tuesday implemented an ethics committee and a triage committee to review all coronavirus patients as they come in to determine what type of life-saving equipment and treatment they would likely require and whether they would likely survive. Those deemed too fragile or sick or elderly will be advised to go home to loved ones, he said."
Without the constraints of the ACA, there would have been an infinite amount of life-saving equipment and everyone who had adequate insurance would have been treated.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 08:44 AM   #602
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
All that could have been avoided if they just stopped testing people.

No test, no Covid19, no people needing emergency health care.

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Old 23rd July 2020, 09:44 AM   #603
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Well they got their death panels now.

"Starr County Health Authority Dr. Jose Vazquez said Starr County Memorial Hospital, the county’s only hospital, on Tuesday implemented an ethics committee and a triage committee to review all coronavirus patients as they come in to determine what type of life-saving equipment and treatment they would likely require and whether they would likely survive. Those deemed too fragile or sick or elderly will be advised to go home to loved ones, he said."


Because this is the time to reintroduce active COVID cases back into the community.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 09:49 AM   #604
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The all-new "US Politics and coronavirus" thread pt. 2

Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Hmm. It's not like that's a trick question. Nor is it a difficult question that would measurably hinder the more important things you have to do, should you post the answer.


I don’t know. I don’t even know what software it is. I am not going to look this up. I have used a ton of statistics and some graphing / visualization tools. In my experience, most people either use the default settings, or set them for a particular looking result and leave it that way. Like “3 red counties” for instance.

I’m not holding back on you; I really don’t know and I’m really not that interested in researching.

ETA - I apologize for not directly replying before. A couple of other people gave better info on the software since I posted, and I thought you might have some of that. Thank you for engaging honestly and your willingness to change views based on this type of info. I should have made my disclaimer more clear.

Last edited by carlitos; 23rd July 2020 at 09:58 AM.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 10:16 AM   #605
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Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post

Because this is the time to reintroduce active COVID cases back into the community.
Would you think it better to just euthanize them on the spot? These doctors are saying that they literally can't handle every case that is serious enough to require hospitalization. This is obviously secondary to the Texas government not taking the virus seriously enough (encouraged by their hero president), and now comes the time that the citizens of Texas pay the price.

Fortunately (not really), these people who are being turned away will likely be too sick to spread the virus further than their homes.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 11:01 AM   #606
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Would you think it better to just euthanize them on the spot? These doctors are saying that they literally can't handle every case that is serious enough to require hospitalization. This is obviously secondary to the Texas government not taking the virus seriously enough (encouraged by their hero president), and now comes the time that the citizens of Texas pay the price.

Fortunately (not really), these people who are being turned away will likely be too sick to spread the virus further than their homes.
Of course not. No, you isolate them from others and provide the care you CAN provide.

Only spread to their homes? And what about the people that may have contact with them in their homes?
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Old 23rd July 2020, 11:07 AM   #607
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California is seeing a dramatic increase in new infections. In Orange County there have been 31,743 cases and 521 Orange County residents have died. The situation in Orange County is getting worse. Cases are rising, hospital ICUs are two-thirds full and testing is coming back with a 12% positive rate which seems very high. (Orange County Health Dept. Covid-19 Dashboard - link) In New York State testing has had a 1% positive rate for several weeks now. The Los Angeles Times looked at Orange County, where resistance to wearing face masks and social distancing is especially strong. Typical was one man the Times spoke to:
Quote:
“I don’t believe it. I don’t believe the rates are rising,” Brad Colburn said. “They’re inflated. It’s another way of shutting everything down … of the Democrats trying to get what they want.” The 58-year-old Huntington Beach resident said he has yet to wear a mask outside of shopping. Standing by a beach path as cyclists and in-line skaters zoomed by, he offered his own alternative policy to restrictive coronavirus health orders. “If you don’t want to go outside, don’t go outside,” Colburn said. LA Times link (may be paywalled)
I don't get it. Why would someone seriously think the Democrats are inflating Covid-19 statistics in order to 'shut everything down.' For what purpose? How would they coordinate changing public health records with none of their political opponents being able to find evidence of it and sound the alarm? It seems likelier to me this man doesn't really think that, he's just angry and lashing out. However, a local college professor thinks people like Brad Colburn really do believe it.
Quote:
Fred Smoller, a professor of political science at nearby Chapman University, described [Orange County] as a conservative stronghold and said that the attitudes about the coronavirus there reflect larger political divides. “Their ideology is a lens through which they are viewing the coronavirus,” Smoller said. “I would imagine many people there see it as a hoax, which the president has encouraged them to do in order to up his chance of reelection. I’m sure there’s quite a bit of animus toward the governor.… They’re viewing [state restrictions] as further evidence of the deep state and of an intrusive government.”
A poster here is from Orange County and a few months ago they wrote -- in this thread I think -- that the private school their child attends was preparing to reopen. That the state couldn't force them to remain closed because it's a private school. They wrote that California governor Newsom could "go eff himself." It would be understandable if they had written that they thought Newsom was overreacting, that closing the schools would do more damage to the kids than the virus. I wouldn't agree with it but at least you could follow the logic (even if you found it flawed). But they wrote their governor could go eff himself. They were angry. Angry at their governor for basically doing what every other country in the world was doing in the face of an epidemic of an incurable virus.

So much anger. It's almost as though 30% of the country is at war with the rest of us.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Huntington Beach Calif. July 2020.jpg (131.8 KB, 4 views)
File Type: jpg CA New cases 07212020.jpg (39.4 KB, 3 views)

Last edited by newyorkguy; 23rd July 2020 at 12:01 PM.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 11:39 AM   #608
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Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
Of course not. No, you isolate them from others and provide the care you CAN provide.

Only spread to their homes? And what about the people that may have contact with them in their homes?
People they have already been in contact with and infected mostly. Where are they getting the beds for these people do die in or are you just sticking them in a storage cupboard somewhere?
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Old 23rd July 2020, 12:11 PM   #609
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
People they have already been in contact with and infected mostly. Where are they getting the beds for these people do die in or are you just sticking them in a storage cupboard somewhere?
Exactly. One thing that seems to elude many participating in the discussion of the pandemic is that hospitals still have to deal with every other damn illness and injury that has nothing to do with the current pandemic. People with heart attacks still need coronary artery bypasses (and ventilators, by the way), victims of severe beatings need their broken bones mended, pregnant women need to deliver babies, etc. Hell, people are still getting pneumonia that isn't caused by this novel coronavirus!

This is why from the very beginning (before Trump took any positive action at all) the experts were perhaps most concerned that hospitals would become overwhelmed by COVID-19 patients, especially in areas that are already underserved when it comes to health care. People are now dying because there's no room left in at least this one hospital, and probably more in areas where some patients won't even bother trying because the nearest hospital was overburdened even before this pandemic started.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 12:37 PM   #610
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
People they have already been in contact with and infected mostly. Where are they getting the beds for these people do die in or are you just sticking them in a storage cupboard somewhere?
It depends on locality. Here, it's hard to tell if they've hit the triage stage yet. But there are plans. A shutdown hospital is being opened up. Some areas seem to be using hallways.

ETA: as to the underserved/rural areas, helicopters are being used to transfer patients to and from hospitals to try to even out the loading.
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Last edited by slyjoe; 23rd July 2020 at 12:38 PM.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 12:40 PM   #611
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
I don’t know. I don’t even know what software it is. I am not going to look this up. I have used a ton of statistics and some graphing / visualization tools. In my experience, most people either use the default settings, or set them for a particular looking result and leave it that way. Like “3 red counties” for instance.

I’m not holding back on you; I really don’t know and I’m really not that interested in researching.

ETA - I apologize for not directly replying before. A couple of other people gave better info on the software since I posted, and I thought you might have some of that. Thank you for engaging honestly and your willingness to change views based on this type of info. I should have made my disclaimer more clear.
Thanks, no problem.

I also have extensive experience with these sort of tools. It's inconceivable those are default settings. I have little doubt the color scheme was driven by willful shenanigans.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 12:51 PM   #612
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Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
It depends on locality. Here, it's hard to tell if they've hit the triage stage yet. But there are plans. A shutdown hospital is being opened up. Some areas seem to be using hallways.

ETA: as to the underserved/rural areas, helicopters are being used to transfer patients to and from hospitals to try to even out the loading.
Ah yes keep the dying highly infectious people in the hallways that is how you give them dignity instead of sending them home. Why is it so important that people die in the hospital instead of at home?
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Old 23rd July 2020, 12:51 PM   #613
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I guess Stephen Miller's family was a little jealous about just how dysfunctional the Trump's were, and decided to get in on the action.

From: Mother Jones
Stephen Miller, the extremist anti-immigrant Trump adviser...lost a relative to the coronavirus pandemic, and his uncle tells Mother Jones that the Trump administration is partly to blame for this death... David Glosser, the brother of Miller’s mother, posted a Facebook note announcing the death of his mother, Ruth Glosser, who was Miller’s maternal grandmother...

Note that the accuser (Glosser) has criticized Miller and Trump before, so it is not a case of someone switching sides because of a loss.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 01:08 PM   #614
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We officially passed 4 million confirmed cases.

From first confirmed case in America to 1 million cases took 99 days. From 1 million to 2 million cases took 43 days. From 2 million to 3 million cases took 28 days. And from 3 million to 4 million cases took 15 days. We'll probably hit 5 million in about a week.

Well we flatten the curve. We just flattened it on the Y axis by mistake.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 01:10 PM   #615
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Officially past 4 million cases.

"We're Number One! We're Number One!"
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Old 23rd July 2020, 01:44 PM   #616
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
Officially past 4 million cases.

"We're Number One! We're Number One!"
I am so tired of winning. Like bone tired, exhaustion tired.
Quote:
The country's rising daily rate of confirmed coronavirus cases, along with a near-record number of hospitalizations, signals the US is far from containing a virus that is straining hospitals and labs, health experts say. "We've rolled back essentially two months' worth of progress with what we're seeing in number of cases ... in the United States," Dr. Ali Khan, dean of the University of Nebraska Medical Center's College of Public Health, told CNN on Thursday. About 59,600 people were hospitalized with Covid-19 in the US on Wednesday -- roughly 300 short of the country's peak recorded in mid-April, according to the Covid Tracking Project. From the link in the quote.
This is what health officials have been worrying about, especially when you add in seasonal flu. Medical facilities face an additional burden because Covid-19 patients have to be physically isolated from other patients.
Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Exactly. One thing that seems to elude many participating in the discussion of the pandemic is that hospitals still have to deal with every other damn illness and injury that has nothing to do with the current pandemic...
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Old 23rd July 2020, 02:13 PM   #617
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
...From first confirmed case in America to 1 million cases took 99 days. From 1 million to 2 million cases took 43 days. From 2 million to 3 million cases took 28 days. And from 3 million to 4 million cases took 15 days...
The president of the United States must certainly have this information. Yet just a week ago -- seems a lot longer in hyper-trump time -- this thing that currently resides in the White House was exhorting states to 'reopen schools fully' or face financial penalties from the federal government.

Unbelievable that someone like this could remain in the White House. You'd have thought any president who behaved the way this one does would have had angry mobs storming 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue by now. Instead, we have reached a point where a majority of Americans who identify as Republicans say they think trump 'has handled the pandemic well, done a good job as our president and should get four more years.'

I never in my life imagined anything like this could befall this nation. It's really heartbreaking.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 02:43 PM   #618
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Thanks, no problem.

I also have extensive experience with these sort of tools. It's inconceivable those are default settings. I have little doubt the color scheme was driven by willful shenanigans.
The problem is getting too big to hide at this point.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 03:01 PM   #619
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
I don't get it. Why would someone seriously think the Democrats are inflating Covid-19 statistics in order to 'shut everything down.' For what purpose?
Making Trump look bad, of course.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 03:02 PM   #620
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Making Trump look bad, of course.
Point of order: Democrats also hate America.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 03:04 PM   #621
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
The problem is getting too big to hide at this point.
I don't know how the hell it's going to affect the elections in November, though.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 03:27 PM   #622
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Worldometer has deaths today so far at 1049.

I thought deaths were down?
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Old 23rd July 2020, 03:42 PM   #623
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
I am so tired of winning. Like bone tired, exhaustion tired.
You're gonna want to get that tested, you might have been one of today's lucky winners.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 03:53 PM   #624
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Basically triage as first developed during WWI. Divide the wounded (ill) into three groups: Those who will be ok without immediate treatment; those who have a chance with immediate treatment; and those who aren't going to make it anyhow. Make the first and last groups as comfortable as practicable, and treat the second.
That makes sense in wartime. But this is 21st century America. Horrible.

Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
Officially past 4 million cases.

"We're Number One! We're Number One!"
Which is a pretty Number Two situation!
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Old 23rd July 2020, 04:01 PM   #625
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Ah yes keep the dying highly infectious people in the hallways that is how you give them dignity instead of sending them home. Why is it so important that people die in the hospital instead of at home?
I think you are talking about two different things. The ones in the hallways are not necessarily dying or have been given up on. Secondly, you don't necessarily know who is going to die.

Why do people go to in-patient hospice to die? End of life often requires palliative care.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 04:51 PM   #626
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I talked to a police officer today. He said a child was shot and killed in Florida. The child had covid after blood testing.
He was marked as a covid death.
If this is true, this madness must stop.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 04:54 PM   #627
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
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I talked to a police officer today. He said a child was shot and killed in Florida. The child had covid after blood testing.
He was marked as a covid death.
If this is true, this madness must stop.
I can see why he's on the outs with Trump - he cares what the actual truth is.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 04:57 PM   #628
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So does anyone think Trump's new campaign manager have anything to do with canceling Jacksonville? It's good the event won't be held, but it worries me that Trump is listening to good advice.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 04:59 PM   #629
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
We officially passed 4 million confirmed cases.

From first confirmed case in America to 1 million cases took 99 days. From 1 million to 2 million cases took 43 days. From 2 million to 3 million cases took 28 days. And from 3 million to 4 million cases took 15 days. We'll probably hit 5 million in about a week.

Well we flatten the curve. We just flattened it on the Y axis by mistake.

Someone on another forum noted something about these numbers.

Doubling the number of cases from 1 million to 2 million took 43 days.
Doubling the number of cases from 2 million to 4 million took 28 + 15 = 43 days.

The rate of doubling has been unchanged during that period. If it remains consistent, we'll have 8 million at the start of September and more than 20 million by Election Day.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 05:00 PM   #630
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Brad Parscale Tweets

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I talked to a police officer today. He said a child was shot and killed in Florida. The child had covid after blood testing.
He was marked as a covid death.
If this is true, this madness must stop.
Don't worry, Brad. It's a ******* lie...which you know because you told it.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 05:44 PM   #631
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Brad Parscale Tweets
I talked to a police officer today. He said a child was shot and killed in Florida. The child had covid after blood testing.
He was marked as a covid death.
If this is true, this madness must stop.
Anyone else find this a little... Suspicious?

No source, just a quote from some unnamed Police officer (who likely is not even involved with the case)



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Old 23rd July 2020, 06:30 PM   #632
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I can see why he's on the outs with Trump - he cares what the actual truth is.
I doubt it. I'm guessing the entire story is a lie.

Just a guess, but I wouldn't believe it without a better source.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 07:33 PM   #633
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Wrong thread.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 08:01 PM   #634
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
...........


Well we flatten the curve. We just flattened it on the Y axis by mistake.


Ouch
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Old 23rd July 2020, 08:04 PM   #635
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
...........
I never in my life imagined anything like this could befall this nation. It's really heartbreaking.


I said back in feb or march that hopefully this was Trump’s crisis, a chance to show everyone his incompetence. I was glad that it wasn’t a nuke or something. I couldn’t imagine things being this bad. The Fall is going to suck.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 08:06 PM   #636
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Originally Posted by Armitage72 View Post
Someone on another forum noted something about these numbers.



Doubling the number of cases from 1 million to 2 million took 43 days.

Doubling the number of cases from 2 million to 4 million took 28 + 15 = 43 days.



The rate of doubling has been unchanged during that period. If it remains consistent, we'll have 8 million at the start of September and more than 20 million by Election Day.


So the crowds at the next inauguration shouldn’t be a problem as we will just about have herd immunity by January. Those that are left, I mean.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 10:45 PM   #637
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
However, a local college professor thinks people like Brad Colburn really do believe it.
To poke at this for a moment... A lot of them quite certainly do think that it's horribly overblown, at the least. An important thing to remember there, though, is that people are NOT especially rational creatures as a whole, and it gets much worse when they've been actively disinformed (Fox, Limbaugh, most of the rest of the not very honest right-wing propagandists, Russia/China/other distinctly not friendly foreigners, and business interests have all pumped out a lot of disinformation targeted at them, to be clear). It's also important to understand how powerful and prevalent motivated reasoning is, and that there really are a number of quite powerful motivators to belittle the dangers.

Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Point of order: Democrats also hate America.
And babies. And jobs.

Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Basically triage as first developed during WWI. Divide the wounded (ill) into three groups: Those who will be ok without immediate treatment; those who have a chance with immediate treatment; and those who aren't going to make it anyhow. Make the first and last groups as comfortable as practicable, and treat the second.
That makes sense in wartime. But this is 21st century America. Horrible.
I was personally more reminded of Italy, but... yeah, I'm not faulting the hospital at all. What blame there is lies more with how preventable the situation actually was and those who actively worked against prevention, especially as situations like this were easily predictable from early on.
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Old 23rd July 2020, 11:02 PM   #638
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I can see why he's on the outs with Trump - he cares what the actual truth is.
...That's not actually caring about what actual truth is, though, when taken in the larger context. That's just putting forth a facade of caring about the truth as part of the larger efforts to spin the COVID crisis as wildly overhyped lies.

To address the story mentioned itself, though... honestly, I wouldn't completely rule out the possibility that the story is true without more information, but would consider it neither trustworthy, nor even remotely meaningful even if it were true after the rest of the Florida Republican Party's efforts to cheat to make the numbers look lower. It seems like it's much along the lines of claims in the UK, though, is my first impression. The story there, IIRC, was that doctors were being required to wrongfully list COVID as cause of death as part of the government's overcompensation to how badly the leadership screwed everything up before then.
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Old 24th July 2020, 01:47 AM   #639
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
...That's not actually caring about what actual truth is, though, when taken in the larger context. That's just putting forth a facade of caring about the truth as part of the larger efforts to spin the COVID crisis as wildly overhyped lies.

To address the story mentioned itself, though... honestly, I wouldn't completely rule out the possibility that the story is true without more information, but would consider it neither trustworthy, nor even remotely meaningful even if it were true after the rest of the Florida Republican Party's efforts to cheat to make the numbers look lower. It seems like it's much along the lines of claims in the UK, though, is my first impression. The story there, IIRC, was that doctors were being required to wrongfully list COVID as cause of death as part of the government's overcompensation to how badly the leadership screwed everything up before then.
I'm definitely prepared to believe that there are small number of "edge cases" where someone has died and tested positive for Covid-19, the cause of death is noted as Covid-19 but Covid-19 wasn't a contributory factor in their death.

OTOH there are likely thousands, or tens of thousands of people - especially those in high risk groups - who have died without a Coronavirus test but where Covid-19 was a major contributor to their death.
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Old 24th July 2020, 02:39 AM   #640
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Quote:
Brad Parscale tweeted
I talked to a police officer today. He said a child was shot and killed in Florida. The child had covid after blood testing. He was marked as a covid death. If this is true, this madness must stop.

Quote:
BeaglesResist tweeted
Alerting the Florida Department of Health to your concern. Hopefully they will contact you or the "police officer" for details to look into this violation of medical ethics that I think we all know never happened.
Twitter link
I read a news story online -- I'm not posting the link because it looked like a spam site (and legitimate media doesn't seem to be covering this) -- but they made a good point. There are not many children fatally shot in the head in Florida. They listed the few who have been in the past couple months and none seem to have been listed as dying of Covid-19.

I also note, Parscale gives himself some weasel room --"If this is true" -- which isn't too reassuring. This looks like an obvious attempt to buttress the assertion that the Covid-19 pandemic is being deliberately exaggerated by you-know-who in order to 'make trump look bad.' But if Parscale was a reputable person, instead of a mere hired gun, wouldn't the responsible thing to have done be to look into this, maybe notify Florida officials? BEFORE posting it to social media?

Because the sad fact of life is, a lot of the knuckledraggers will use this to justify not taking any precautions to protect themselves from coronavirus. In Florida -- where the governor has even blamed "the media" for the increase in the state's coronavirus -- that's not too smart.
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