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Tags donald trump , fascism charges , Trump controversies

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Old 5th September 2020, 09:27 PM   #401
The Great Zaganza
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A different President would not have confiscated PPE supplies meant for the States.
He would not have his son-in-law tell States that the strategic Reserve Supplies are "our supplies" and refuse to share them.
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Old 5th September 2020, 11:28 PM   #402
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
A different president, say, one with an IQ, could have taken the playbook Governor Cuomo handed him
Cuomo, the guy who sent sick COVID patients into nursing homes that couldnít handle them? The guy directly responsible for thousands of deaths as a result of a policy that was obviously wrong even without the benefit of hindsight? That Cuomo?

Yeah, no. You arenít serious, and you donít deserve to be taken seriously.
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Old 6th September 2020, 12:55 AM   #403
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
The Chinese hate latinos now. Your masters are peculiar.
"Chinese Man Bad!"
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Old 6th September 2020, 12:58 AM   #404
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Maybe China could have kept it down by an order of magnitude, if they acted differently at the start. But I seriously doubt anyone else was ever in a position to limit it anywhere close to that much.
Are you saying that if New Zealand had just let the disease run rampant they'd still only have had 240 deaths?
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Old 6th September 2020, 12:59 AM   #405
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
A different President would not have confiscated PPE supplies meant for the States.
He would not have his son-in-law tell States that the strategic Reserve Supplies are "our supplies" and refuse to share them.
...and then given them to newly-formed private companies (owned by Republicans) and made the states enter a bidding war for the PPE.
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Old 6th September 2020, 01:09 AM   #406
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At least some Dems are calling Trump only a Fascist.

Many Republicans have called Obama the N-word, a Muslim, murderer, communist, pedophile, satanist.

Playing the "Dems are just mean" card doesn't have much credibility here.
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Old 6th September 2020, 01:45 AM   #407
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I've overheard people saying that Biden is the real fascist, Obama is a thin-skinned narcissist, Antifa is the real fascists, Dems are name-callers.... it's really like they think the insults are empty words, which can easily be turned around and reused, and not descriptions of actions. Empty insults like Sleepy Joe, Hiding Biden, and any of the other child's taunts daily flung about by the President of the United States.
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Old 6th September 2020, 03:19 AM   #408
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Are you saying that if New Zealand had just let the disease run rampant they'd still only have had 240 deaths?

Minor correction: 24, not 240 deaths.
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Old 6th September 2020, 05:00 AM   #409
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Originally Posted by The J is for Jeenyus View Post
See, the thing is, most of us making the claim that he will try to stay in office past his term are claiming he will come up with some (flimsy) justification for doing so, such as the "rigged election" he's been whining about for over four years now (you are aware of this whining, are you not?)

And I guarantee when/if that time comes--When/if he loses the election and refuses to accept the results, and begins proposing various investigations and what not in an attempt to legitimize his BS claims of election fraud--People like you will continue to defend his actions (despite your present denial that such things will ever come to pass). You will support it despite the harm it will do to the country, and you will say your support does not contradict your current claim in this thread that none of this is ever going to happen, because your claim carried an unspoken caveat that all bets are off if he has a "legitimate" (according to you) complaint against the results--Which even now you probably know damn well is how it's going to happen.
This is an excellent post.
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Old 6th September 2020, 06:44 AM   #410
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Originally Posted by The J is for Jeenyus View Post
See, the thing is, most of us making the claim that he will try to stay in office past his term are claiming he will come up with some (flimsy) justification for doing so, such as the "rigged election" he's been whining about for over four years now (you are aware of this whining, are you not?)

And I guarantee when/if that time comes--When/if he loses the election and refuses to accept the results, and begins proposing various investigations and what not in an attempt to legitimize his BS claims of election fraud--People like you will continue to defend his actions (despite your present denial that such things will ever come to pass). You will support it despite the harm it will do to the country, and you will say your support does not contradict your current claim in this thread that none of this is ever going to happen, because your claim carried an unspoken caveat that all bets are off if he has a "legitimate" (according to you) complaint against the results--Which even now you probably know damn well is how it's going to happen.
And when you are proven wrong, what will you do?
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Old 6th September 2020, 06:50 AM   #411
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Are you saying that if New Zealand had just let the disease run rampant they'd still only have had 240 deaths?
New Zealand had advantages that few other countries share. And you have the claim backwards. Iím not saying it couldnít have been worse, which is what you are asking. Iím not even saying it couldnít have been better. Iím saying it could not have been an order of magnitude better. That became impossible as soon as China willingly infected the world and lied about the virus while they did it.
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Old 6th September 2020, 06:53 AM   #412
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
New Zealand had advantages that few other countries share. And you have the claim backwards. I’m not saying it couldn’t have been worse, which is what you are asking. I’m not even saying it couldn’t have been better. I’m saying it could not have been an order of magnitude better. That became impossible as soon as China willingly infected the world and lied about the virus while they did it.
50% (Canada) and 20% (Germany) are just much more justifiable benchmarks.
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Old 6th September 2020, 08:37 AM   #413
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Are you claiming that a different president could have kept the death toll to zero?
Compared with Europe, I think there are about 100 000 excess deaths. The shining city on a hill...
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Old 6th September 2020, 08:47 AM   #414
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I guess now would be a good time to remind everyone that regardless of how they might want to interpret Trump's behavior, purely as a matter of definitions we can't call his "regime" fascism. Because, you know, executive branch of a representative republic isn't fascism.
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Old 6th September 2020, 08:49 AM   #415
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"Representative"

A triumph of form over substance.
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Old 6th September 2020, 08:54 AM   #416
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I guess now would be a good time to remind everyone that regardless of how they might want to interpret Trump's behavior, purely as a matter of definitions we can't call his "regime" fascism. Because, you know, executive branch of a representative republic isn't fascism.
I guess that is true.
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Old 6th September 2020, 09:04 AM   #417
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I guess now would be a good time to remind everyone that regardless of how they might want to interpret Trump's behavior, purely as a matter of definitions we can't call his "regime" fascism. Because, you know, executive branch of a representative republic isn't fascism.
I guess now would be a good time to remind everyone that the step after "Trump is doing the thing he said he was gonna do but it technically doesn't count because of semantics" is "Trump is doing the thing he said he was gonna do, what are you gonna do about it?"
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Old 6th September 2020, 09:09 AM   #418
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Are you claiming that a different president could have kept the death toll to zero?
As I think about it, nothing says you can't be held responsible for things outside of your control.
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Old 6th September 2020, 09:27 AM   #419
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
New Zealand had advantages that few other countries share. And you have the claim backwards. Iím not saying it couldnít have been worse, which is what you are asking. Iím not even saying it couldnít have been better. Iím saying it could not have been an order of magnitude better. That became impossible as soon as China willingly infected the world and lied about the virus while they did it.
A first simple piece of math. At 4% of the world's population, the US has 25% of the planet's cases. What does that suggest? To me, that the US has 6X more cases than it should. That's approaching an order of magnitude.

Then consider that the US did have a small lead, getting to see the earlier situation in Italy, for example.

And consider also the US's nominal expertise in dealing with pandemics.

These three factors tell me that it's well possible that the US will be found to have endured perhaps 10X more cases that it could have if it had reacted like other responsible, proactive nations.
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Old 6th September 2020, 09:36 AM   #420
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Originally Posted by Georg View Post
Minor correction: 24, not 240 deaths.
We're talking about things being an order of magnitude worse. New Zealand has had 24 deaths. If that were an order or magnitude worse, it would have been 240.
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Old 6th September 2020, 09:39 AM   #421
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
New Zealand had advantages that few other countries share. And you have the claim backwards. I’m not saying it couldn’t have been worse, which is what you are asking. I’m not even saying it couldn’t have been better. I’m saying it could not have been an order of magnitude better. That became impossible as soon as China willingly infected the world and lied about the virus while they did it.
If the death rate can be an order of magnitude worse if nothing or not enough had been done - which is clearly the case in New Zealand, since 240 deaths isn't an unimaginably high number for any country - then that necessarily implies that the things which were done reduced the deaths by at least an order of magnitude. You claimed that only China could have reduced the death rate by an order of magnitude. Your claim is false.
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Old 6th September 2020, 09:49 AM   #422
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I'm not interested in playing motte and bailey with you.
Wouldnít want to unintentionally insult your god-king, huh?
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Old 6th September 2020, 11:01 AM   #423
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God Emperor. GEOTUS, for short.
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Old 6th September 2020, 11:08 AM   #424
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
God Emperor. GEOTUS, for short.
Presidential Royal Imperial Commander King.
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Old 6th September 2020, 11:32 AM   #425
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
I guess now would be a good time to remind everyone that the step after "Trump is doing the thing he said he was gonna do but it technically doesn't count because of semantics" is "Trump is doing the thing he said he was gonna do, what are you gonna do about it?"
You lost me. What fascist regime has Trump implemented? What fascist regime did he even say he was going to implement?
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Old 6th September 2020, 11:53 AM   #426
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Trump can be bad without being a fascist.
Pointing out that he's not a fascist doesn't mean he isn't bad.

Everyone happy?
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Old 6th September 2020, 11:57 AM   #427
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You lost me.
Yeah that happens when you intentionally wander off the trail in an attempt to reset the argument back to everyone explaining to you for the 100,000,000th time what Trump has done wrong.
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Old 6th September 2020, 12:41 PM   #428
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Are you saying that if New Zealand had just let the disease run rampant they'd still only have had 240 deaths?
We've only had 24 deaths?

https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/...-current-cases
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Old 6th September 2020, 01:06 PM   #429
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Are you claiming that a different president could have kept the death toll to zero?
Another example iof the crap argument, just like the 2A debate, that if a solution cannot be absolute and fix a problem 100%, then its not a solution and it should not be implemented.

IMPROVEMENT IS ALLOWED!!

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
New Zealand had advantages that few other countries share.
In this country, the government went strong, hard and early (and some here argued that even we were not early enough). They locked us down before things began to really take off. The result is less than 1800 cases with only 24 deaths in a country of nearly five million. Had we taken the US route, and done what Trump did (pretend it would all go away by itself) and matched their death rate per capita, we would have had 3,000 deaths and counting.

Yes, we had some things going for us, such as a central government and being a small, relatively isolated country, but they didn't give us a 1000 fold advantage. Trump could have

* listened to his scientists and medical expertise who recognised the problem and potential trouble ahead.
* let them speak about what needs to happen instead of hogging the stage for himself.
* not hamstring and then politicise the CDC
* not make mask-wearing a political thing.
* not argue for bat-**** crazy cures and treatments.
* not declare it be a Democrat hoax.

He could have used his executive powers to declare and National State of Emergency, closed the US border entirely and order the states to close the borders between them. Had he done that, and as long as the states complied, your death toll would not not be 192,000, it would be more like 1,600
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Old 6th September 2020, 02:15 PM   #430
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yeah that happens when you intentionally wander off the trail in an attempt to reset the argument back to everyone explaining to you for the 100,000,000th time what Trump has done wrong.
Whatever he's done wrong, he hasn't established a fascist regime.
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Old 6th September 2020, 03:02 PM   #431
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
If the death rate can be an order of magnitude worse if nothing or not enough had been done - which is clearly the case in New Zealand, since 240 deaths isn't an unimaginably high number for any country - then that necessarily implies that the things which were done reduced the deaths by at least an order of magnitude. You claimed that only China could have reduced the death rate by an order of magnitude. Your claim is false.
Reading comprehension fail. We were talking about an order of magnitude less than what actually happened, not an order of magnitude reduction from what could have happened. If the latter happened (not a given), that doesn't mean the former could.
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Old 6th September 2020, 03:42 PM   #432
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You lost me. What fascist regime has Trump implemented? What fascist regime did he even say he was going to implement?
What does it mean to implement something, or to say you're going to?
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Old 6th September 2020, 03:57 PM   #433
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It doesn't mean the Trump administration is a fascist regime, anyway.

Unless you have some argument that it does?
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Old 6th September 2020, 04:17 PM   #434
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Reading comprehension fail. We were talking about an order of magnitude less than what actually happened, not an order of magnitude reduction from what could have happened. If the latter happened (not a given), that doesn't mean the former could.
We can never draw conclusions from comparisons, nor postulate on what might have been had a different course been taken?! By that 'reasoning' we should actually be incapable of reason.

As a baseline, we could, to first order, suppose that similar policies might result in similar infection/death rates among similarly developed nations. If one nation stands out far beyond statistical expectation, we might infer that some crucial difference in policy could be a cause for that anomalous departure.

By comparing NZ's actual per capita case count to that of the US, they being similarly developed countries, and noting differences in approach in handling the threat, a viable conclusion can be drawn. After all, that's the principle of the modeling process, used also during pandemics. Having the benefit afterward of hindsight only builds upon the earlier process of supposition.

When we aggregate the situations for all nations reasonably similar developmentally, the conclusions drawn are made firmer.

I feel like I'm having to instruct on the process of science here.

Anyway, how do you account for 4% of the world's population that reside in the US suffering 25% of the world's infections? That's a MASSIVE discordance, for purportedly the "Greatest" nation on the planet, in all of history.
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Old 6th September 2020, 08:43 PM   #435
smartcooky
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
We can never draw conclusions from comparisons, nor postulate on what might have been had a different course been taken?! By that 'reasoning' we should actually be incapable of reason.

As a baseline, we could, to first order, suppose that similar policies might result in similar infection/death rates among similarly developed nations. If one nation stands out far beyond statistical expectation, we might infer that some crucial difference in policy could be a cause for that anomalous departure.

By comparing NZ's actual per capita case count to that of the US, they being similarly developed countries, and noting differences in approach in handling the threat, a viable conclusion can be drawn. After all, that's the principle of the modeling process, used also during pandemics. Having the benefit afterward of hindsight only builds upon the earlier process of supposition.

When we aggregate the situations for all nations reasonably similar developmentally, the conclusions drawn are made firmer.

I feel like I'm having to instruct on the process of science here.

Anyway, how do you account for 4% of the world's population that reside in the US suffering 25% of the world's infections? That's a MASSIVE discordance, for purportedly the "Greatest" nation on the planet, in all of history.
You keep forgetting that Zig is a proponent of the "'Merica is speshul" theory; the idea that solutions which work in other countries won't work in America because its "Special".

But back here in the real world the USA has

4% of the world's population
23.5% of the world's Covid-19 cases
22% of the world's deaths from Covid-19

THERE IS NO WAY TO SPIN THOSE FIGURES AWAY. They speak to a wholly inadequate response by a totally incompetent administration.
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Old 6th September 2020, 08:53 PM   #436
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To answer the OP question: no. Because to be properly fascist a politician has to be grown in a specific region of France, otherwise his policies are just sparkling wine.
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Old 7th September 2020, 01:35 AM   #437
Squeegee Beckenheim
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Reading comprehension fail. We were talking about an order of magnitude less than what actually happened, not an order of magnitude reduction from what could have happened. If the latter happened (not a given), that doesn't mean the former could.
Yes, I understand. I literally just explained that in the post you're replying to. Have another go at reading it.
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Old 7th September 2020, 02:52 AM   #438
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
We can never draw conclusions from comparisons, nor postulate on what might have been had a different course been taken?!
Who the hell said that? Not me. You really need to improve reading comprehension.

The fact that you can postulate on what might have been doesnít mean any postulate is therefore valid. The postulate that the US could have lowered COVID deaths by an order of magnitude from what it was is bull ****. It isnít based on anything real.

Quote:
By that 'reasoning' we should actually be incapable of reason.
Itís amazing how bad arguments can be when you straw man them.

Quote:
As a baseline, we could, to first order, suppose that similar policies might result in similar infection/death rates among similarly developed nations. If one nation stands out far beyond statistical expectation, we might infer that some crucial difference in policy could be a cause for that anomalous departure.

By comparing NZ's actual per capita case count to that of the US, they being similarly developed countries,
See, this here is stupid. Similar ďlevel of developmentĒ doesnít suffice. New Zealand is very different from the US in ways that matter for disease spread. The comparison you are trying to make isnít valid. Your attempt at ďreasoningĒ is superficial and flawed.

Quote:
I feel like I'm having to instruct on the process of science here.
Bwahahahaha!

No.

Quote:
Anyway, how do you account for 4% of the world's population that reside in the US suffering 25% of the world's infections?
For one thing, Chinaís numbers are bull ****. For another, there is no consistency in how COVID deaths are measured across different countries. Thatís a really big problem for your attempted comparison.
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Old 7th September 2020, 02:55 AM   #439
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by The J is for Jeenyus View Post
I'm more interested in what you will do when you are proven wrong. (I like to read fantasy but I still live in reality).
Sure you are. Because you havenít entertained the notion that you could be.
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
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Old 7th September 2020, 11:50 AM   #440
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Is anyone disputing that Trump would break the law if it allowed him to stay in power?
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