ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags donald trump , fascism charges , Trump controversies

Reply
Old 24th September 2020, 08:24 AM   #601
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 15,149
I'm not into trying to read the minds of quacking water fowl. I accept what they quack. The inner-workings of their bird brains is irrelevant, except as a matter of idle curiosity.

If advocating democracy suited Trump's irrepressible narcissism, he'd be advocating democracy. (So long as he can still keep ******* out of his rental units.) His narcissism is so all consuming, he's incapable of not cheating. That's why, in a certain sense, the enablers are worse than Dear Leader.

That's no solace at all for our slide into an authoritarian state.
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
My authority is total - Trump
varwoche is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2020, 08:29 AM   #602
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 27,838
Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I'm not into trying to read the minds of quacking water fowl. I accept what they quack. The inner-workings of their bird brains is irrelevant, except as a matter of idle curiosity.
This. It doesn't make one iota of difference if Trump honestly wants us to be failed dictatorial state or he's "LOL troll the Libz" ironically doing it and the distinction should literally never enter into actually discussions outside of the vaguest passings of mention.
__________________
- I don't know how to convince you that facts exist
- I don't know how to convince you that you should care about other people
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2020, 09:17 AM   #603
cosmicaug
Graduate Poster
 
cosmicaug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,073
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
This. It doesn't make one iota of difference if Trump honestly wants us to be failed dictatorial state or he's "LOL troll the Libz" ironically doing it and the distinction should literally never enter into actually discussions outside of the vaguest passings of mention.
The one place where he is probably informed by an actual fascist dictator (Hitler) is in his demagoguery. Based on a 1990 article and knowing that he is not "a reader" (so the fact that any book gets any mention at all in that 1990 article is remarkable), he has probably studied it and has been (probably intentionally) applying it in his own way in his political rallies.

This does not make him a fascist. What makes him a fascist is the whole looking, walking & quacking like a duck part. It doesn't matter if he does so incompetently. It doesn't matter that he's dumb as a rock (it's sad that this is even a defense of Trump). It doesn't matter if he even understands what he is doing (though he probably has at least some understanding). It doesn't matter if deep in his heart he believes himself to be a fascist.
__________________
--
August Pamplona

Last edited by cosmicaug; 24th September 2020 at 09:19 AM. Reason: Just thought that the hyperlink should be attached to the 1st mention instead of the 2nd
cosmicaug is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2020, 09:24 AM   #604
rockysmith76
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 1,990
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
This. It doesn't make one iota of difference if Trump honestly wants us to be failed dictatorial state or he's "LOL troll the Libz" ironically doing it and the distinction should literally never enter into actually discussions outside of the vaguest passings of mention.
...snip... he's an ego maniac, not a fascist, which has become the the goto lib term for all they disagree with without any nuance.

Edited by jsfisher:  Post redacted to stay within the bounds of Rule 11.

Last edited by jsfisher; 24th September 2020 at 10:56 AM.
rockysmith76 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2020, 09:41 AM   #605
cosmicaug
Graduate Poster
 
cosmicaug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,073
Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Nope. Trump is clearly saying that he'll win IF the mail-in ballots are tossed. His radical goal is to alter the very system of vote provision, restricting it to in-person only.

He knows all about the Red Illusion, where the earlier results from the booths tend to favor the GOP, to be neutralized later when the mailed ballots are then counted.
It's Schrodinger's Trump. He remains an uncollapsed probability wave function until someone actually listens to him. At that point, based on political orientation, it either becomes a matter of actually attempting to apply context & the meaning of the actual words that he is actually using or it becomes "Let us bathe in the light of Dear Leader!".

Who can even know what is the proper approach to divining him?
__________________
--
August Pamplona

Last edited by cosmicaug; 24th September 2020 at 09:42 AM. Reason: Added ", based on political orientation"
cosmicaug is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2020, 09:51 AM   #606
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 17,646
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
This is Trump saying he'll win the 2020 election. Which is really no different than Obama saying that Trump would lose the 2016 election.
I don’t think you really believe this. But here are some additional Trump quotes that make this attempt at an analogy absolutely false:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/24/polit...ice/index.html
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2020, 09:53 AM   #607
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 27,838
Besides it's not like we have to go all that far back to find an example of a contested election going to the Supreme Court, who then finds for the Republican side, and the Democrat candidate accepting the decision and conceding or anything.
__________________
- I don't know how to convince you that facts exist
- I don't know how to convince you that you should care about other people
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2020, 10:09 AM   #608
cosmicaug
Graduate Poster
 
cosmicaug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,073
Originally Posted by dann View Post
It may still be at the transitional stage, but there's no better word for it.
Quote:
Is MAGA a movement based on ultra-nationalism, race-based and religion-based divisions, and an obsession with the past? If it is, then, we need to stop avoiding what that is called...
Renegade Cut (Aug. 25, 2020): MAGA and Fascism
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Is that video maker a reader of this forum*?
Quote:
Whenever something occurs that can be described as fascist, the discourse goes thusly: If fascist tactics are successful, MAGA and its defenders claim that such tactics cannot possibly be fascistic if they can co-exist within liberal democracy. If fascist tactics are unsuccessful, MAGA claims that liberal democracy has safeguarded us against fascist tactics and therefore said tactics are not worth worrying about because it's “only fascism if it's successful” – defining fascism by the aforementioned threshold that historically does not exist.

The most notable example of this circular argument is President Trump attempting to cancel the election. He has explicitly stated that the election must not take place this year. Undermining elections and consolidating power are both part of the fascist playbook. Defenders of Trump say that since he is probably unable to do this due to the constitution, any suggestion that this is “fascist” is alarmist. Conversely, if Trump does successfully weaponize the Department of Justice and other departments to cancel the election, those same people will say that he has done so legitimately using the powers of his office and is therefore not fascist.

It's a double-speak that allows any action to be defended as “normal” no matter how egregious and no matter its level of success. The existence of structural safeguards to prevent some of the more egregious acts of authoritarianism and common fascist tactics does not change the fact that such tactics have been attempted.




Near the end of the video:
Quote:
If we have ever wondered how we would have acted when threatened with an early 20th century fascist movement, the answer is however we are acting right now. Apologists will always find some other outline, some loophole for why this must not be publicly declared a fascist movement, always purposefully missing the definition of fascist ideology that it need not be identical to the common perception of fascism in the popular consciousness or meet every commonality, only that it be recognizably fascist and contain the bones of the ideology.

People are so afraid to call this what it is for fear of being ostracized as an “alarmist” but those days need to be over. Every prediction for what a Trump presidency backed by the MAGA movement would look like either came true or ended up being worse than predicted.

The “alarmists” were right. People are worried that calling this what it is won't be “helpful” in the discourse, but downplaying what has been happening has not been “helpful” so far. Any argument that amounts to “Well, this specific thing hasn't happened yet.” is irrelevant. Sell that to someone who has not been paying attention.

* Not really a serious question. I understand that this is a generic response by supporters and not anything peculiar to anyone who might be posting on this thread.
__________________
--
August Pamplona
cosmicaug is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2020, 10:12 AM   #609
cosmicaug
Graduate Poster
 
cosmicaug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,073
Originally Posted by cosmicaug View Post
Are we in the double digits yet for the number of recorded times when he has said something to this effect?

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I don’t think you really believe this. But here are some additional Trump quotes that make this attempt at an analogy absolutely false:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/24/polit...ice/index.html
To answer my own question, they are showing only 9 times so I guess it must not be fascism yet.
__________________
--
August Pamplona
cosmicaug is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2020, 11:43 AM   #610
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
 
Upchurch's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 32,186
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
This is Trump saying he'll win the 2020 election. Which is really no different than Obama saying that Trump would lose the 2016 election.
It might be the same if Obama had said Trump would lose and he'd throw out votes for Trump until Clinton won.

Because that's what he's saying. He's saying that mail-in votes for Biden are inherently fraudulent.
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes.
"It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.
Upchurch is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2020, 11:47 AM   #611
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 27,838
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
It might be the same if Obama had said Trump would lose and he'd throw out votes for Trump until Clinton won.

Because that's what he's saying. He's saying that mail-in votes for Biden are inherently fraudulent.
It's even more basic than that.

He's saying he will win in November and telling his followers "Start thinking of ways I really won if I wind up not losing."

He's not just saying mail in votes for Biden are fraudulent, he's not just saying that states where here is going to lose are all "rigged," he's not just saying this, not just saying that.

He's saying that anyway in which he could lose is invalid.
__________________
- I don't know how to convince you that facts exist
- I don't know how to convince you that you should care about other people
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2020, 11:49 AM   #612
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 13,160
I would like to know what our resident Trump Whisperers would consider cheating by Trump and the GOP in November.
__________________
Prediction
https://xkcd.com/2370/
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2020, 11:52 AM   #613
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 27,838
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I would like to know what our resident Trump Whisperers would consider cheating by Trump and the GOP in November.
They won't talk to us until we say something they can pedantically nitpick about.

Seriously that's the game.

Trump is dunking someone's head in a vat of sparkling wine.

Us: "Hey that's not good!"

Trumpers: *Silence*

Us: "Seriously the guy is drowning!"

Trumpers: *Silence*

Us: "Great. The guy's dead. The President is going drowned that guy in a bucket of champagne!"

Trumpers *Pouring out of the woodworks* "LOL triggered dramatic libs u r da stoopid that's obviously sparkling wine not champagne I totally don't support Trump but here's a list of reasons why he's gonna win and make the librusl cry...."
__________________
- I don't know how to convince you that facts exist
- I don't know how to convince you that you should care about other people

Last edited by JoeMorgue; 24th September 2020 at 11:53 AM.
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2020, 12:14 PM   #614
cosmicaug
Graduate Poster
 
cosmicaug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,073
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I would like to know what our resident Trump Whisperers would consider cheating by Trump and the GOP in November.
<channeling_inner_childtrump_whisperer>If he's successful it's not cheating/illegal.</channeling_inner_childtrump_whisperer>
__________________
--
August Pamplona
cosmicaug is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2020, 01:22 PM   #615
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 15,451
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I expect better trolling from you. 2/10.
Generous!
__________________
"Woke" is a pejorative term used by racists, homophobes and misogynists to describe people who possess a fully functional moral compass.

If you don't like my posts, my opinions, or my directness then put me on your ignore list. This will be of benefit to both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste my time talking to you... simples! !
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th September 2020, 12:31 AM   #616
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 13,160
Originally Posted by cosmicaug View Post
<channeling_inner_childtrump_whisperer>If he's successful it's not cheating/illegal.</channeling_inner_childtrump_whisperer>

Treason doth never prosper, what's the reason? For if it prosper, none dare call it Treason.
__________________
Prediction
https://xkcd.com/2370/
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th September 2020, 07:25 AM   #617
cosmicaug
Graduate Poster
 
cosmicaug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,073
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
BTW, I love how the Trumpistas including Bill Barr the corrupt head of the DOJ, claim that the Trump campaign was "spied on" by the FBI, when anyone with a brain in their who follow the actual train of events know that it was in fact the Russians who were bring spied on by the Five Eyes (which includes the US Government) and suddenly saw members of the Trump campaign appearing in FSB communiques and meetings with people connected with Russian Intelligence.
Yup. Also, it is possible to to be simultaneously concerned (and even be against) these massive, sigint & telecom based state spying operations and still be aware that Carter Page got caught up in a counterintelligence effort to target Russian intelligence operations.
__________________
--
August Pamplona
cosmicaug is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th September 2020, 09:54 AM   #618
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 47,239
Originally Posted by cosmicaug View Post
Yup. Also, it is possible to to be simultaneously concerned (and even be against) these massive, sigint & telecom based state spying operations and still be aware that Carter Page got caught up in a counterintelligence effort to target Russian intelligence operations.
Yeah, no. The FISA warrants specifically targeted Page. They targeted Page even after extensive surveillance had turned up zero derogatory information on him. They even forged documents to justified continued spying on Page specifically.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th September 2020, 11:32 AM   #619
cosmicaug
Graduate Poster
 
cosmicaug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,073
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Yeah, no. The FISA warrants specifically targeted Page. They targeted Page even after extensive surveillance had turned up zero derogatory information on him. They even forged documents to justified continued spying on Page specifically.
You are being disingenuous. The proposition that they "targeted Page" at some point in time & that he "got caught up in a counterintelligence effort to target Russian intelligence operations" at some previous point in time are not mutually exclusive. In fact, in some cases the former will follow naturally from the latter. You might even say that that's what the meaning of "got caught up" would be in this context.


Originally Posted by cosmicaug View Post
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Oh, so now you're worried about extraordinary domestic surveillance? You didn't seem to care when such surveillance was abused against the Trump campaign.
You are clearly referring to Carter Page. Presumably, the rational narrative is that surveillance was started on him by time travelling, Deep State operatives who knew that he would eventually join the Trump presidential campaign.

https://www.justsecurity.org/59837/reports-carter-page-subject-fisa-warrant-2013-2014/
This is the guy responsible for a large number of the undisclosed and lied about Russian contacts in the Trump campaign.

The process began on the 2nd of March. I am unclear if he was even on the campaign at that point as I have not seen information that nails the date when he joined the campaign other than "early March" which is when he joined as part of a list submitted by Sam Clovis. Certainly, it would not have been known on the outside at this point that he might play an important advisory role. His position as an adviser wasn't even mentioned until the 21st of March to the Washington Post (with a more formal announcement at some later point?*).

However, we also have this from page 97 at https://www.justice.gov/storage/120919-examination.pdf:
Quote:
The FBI's NYFO CI squad supervisor (NYFO CI Supervisor) told us she believed she should have opened a counterintelligence case on Carter Page prior to March 2, 2016 based on his continued contacts with Russian intelligence officers; however, she said the squad was preparing for a big trial, and they did not focus on Page until he was interviewed again on March 2. She told us that after the March 2 interview, she called CD's Counterespionage Section at FBI Headquarters to determine whether Page had any security clearances and to ask for guidance as to what type of investigation to open on Page. 1
So before the 2nd of March (when he wouldn't have been on anyone's radar as an adviser of any importance to the Trump because he wasn't even an adviser to Trump). So whatever was going on that started that, it was not some Deep State conspiracy to get at Trump. It was something else.


* Until at some later point yet he became just a low level volunteer they barely knew.
__________________
--
August Pamplona

Last edited by cosmicaug; 25th September 2020 at 11:34 AM. Reason: Replaced a "which which" with a "which"
cosmicaug is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th September 2020, 11:35 AM   #620
cosmicaug
Graduate Poster
 
cosmicaug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,073
https://thebulwark.com/the-strongman-cometh/

Quote:
The internet runneth over with people who see this and are desperate to discount it. And so this is what you hear:
  • He’s a master troll.
  • He can’t mean it.
  • He probably doesn’t mean it.
  • Even if he means it, some deus ex machina will prevent him from doing it.
  • And even if there’s a chance—a 20 percent chance, a 2 percent chance—that Trump does mean it and that the guardrails might not hold . . .
  • Well, what if Joe Biden is a cyborg being controlled by Communist space-lizards?
  • What if the Democrats got power and raised the capital gains tax rate?
  • What if some future Supreme Court, in some future decade, renders a bad decision on a case that does not yet exist?
And so these people avert their eyes and hide behind euphemisms and hope to avoid the precipice without having to sacrifice their positioning.
But the precipice is here. Donald Trump just told you.

In fact, he’s been telling anyone who would listen for 30 years.

Maybe he won’t be able to pull it off. Maybe Roberts and Gorsuch will stand in the breach. Maybe he’ll wimp out in the end because he’s more of a man-baby than a strongman.

But just how much are you willing to bet on that?

Because if the answer isn’t “everything,” then it’s time to take this man at his word.

Apply #wodi (What If Obama Did It?). In fact, for everything on this thread, apply #wodi.
__________________
--
August Pamplona
cosmicaug is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th September 2020, 11:44 AM   #621
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 47,239
Originally Posted by cosmicaug View Post
You are being disingenuous. The proposition that they "targeted Page" at some point in time & that he "got caught up in a counterintelligence effort to target Russian intelligence operations" at some previous point in time are not mutually exclusive.
That's your own disingenuity. He was targeted, and unjustifiably so. That he might also have been "caught up" in other surveillance doesn't change that.

Quote:
This is the guy responsible for a large number of the undisclosed and lied about Russian contacts in the Trump campaign.
You haven't mentioned any.

Quote:
So before the 2nd of March (when he wouldn't have been on anyone's radar as an adviser of any importance to the Trump because he wasn't even an adviser to Trump). So whatever was going on that started that, it was not some Deep State conspiracy to get at Trump. It was something else.
You are again doing what you accused me of doing: being disingenuous about things which are not mutually exclusive. That there may have been at one point legitimate interest in Page doesn't contradict conspiratorial targeting of him. There was never any justification for forging documents to justify continuing surveillance into 2016.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th September 2020, 11:44 AM   #622
cosmicaug
Graduate Poster
 
cosmicaug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,073
Originally Posted by cosmicaug View Post
https://thebulwark.com/the-strongman-cometh/

Quote:
The internet runneth over with people who see this and are desperate to discount it. And so this is what you hear:
  • He’s a master troll.
  • He can’t mean it.
  • He probably doesn’t mean it.
  • Even if he means it, some deus ex machina will prevent him from doing it.
  • And even if there’s a chance—a 20 percent chance, a 2 percent chance—that Trump does mean it and that the guardrails might not hold . . .
  • Well, what if Joe Biden is a cyborg being controlled by Communist space-lizards?
  • What if the Democrats got power and raised the capital gains tax rate?
  • What if some future Supreme Court, in some future decade, renders a bad decision on a case that does not yet exist?
And so these people avert their eyes and hide behind euphemisms and hope to avoid the precipice without having to sacrifice their positioning.
But the precipice is here. Donald Trump just told you.

In fact, he’s been telling anyone who would listen for 30 years.

Maybe he won’t be able to pull it off. Maybe Roberts and Gorsuch will stand in the breach. Maybe he’ll wimp out in the end because he’s more of a man-baby than a strongman.

But just how much are you willing to bet on that?

Because if the answer isn’t “everything,” then it’s time to take this man at his word.

Apply #wodi (What If Obama Did It?). In fact, for everything on this thread, apply #wodi.
And yes, the Atlantic piece referenced there should be read.
__________________
--
August Pamplona
cosmicaug is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th September 2020, 11:50 AM   #623
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 27,838
It scares me that such a valid argument can be made for "Unless it's an out of the gate overwhelming victory for Biden, it's still a loss."

This isn't going to be a blowout. Trump is still gonna carry a lot of states, the swing states are polling closer than I would like them to be, and there's a solid chance that it is going to take a few days to count the votes from the essential "Blue Wall" states of Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania.

Knowing that even a win isn't a win unless its a blowout win when even a normal win isn't certain is not a pleasant place to be at.

We have too many bad case scenarios and not enough good case scenarios.
__________________
- I don't know how to convince you that facts exist
- I don't know how to convince you that you should care about other people
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th September 2020, 12:03 PM   #624
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 13,160
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That's your own disingenuity. He was targeted, and unjustifiably so. That he might also have been "caught up" in other surveillance doesn't change that.



You haven't mentioned any.



You are again doing what you accused me of doing: being disingenuous about things which are not mutually exclusive. That there may have been at one point legitimate interest in Page doesn't contradict conspiratorial targeting of him. There was never any justification for forging documents to justify continuing surveillance into 2016.

nonsense.

The only sense in which Page was target unfairly was that Trump wasn't targeted, too, for fear of looking like the FBI/DOJ was helping Clinton.
And, of course, Manafort should have been under the microscope from the start as well as Flynn, Cohen, Stone - everyone in the Trump orbit, as subsequent investigations have proven.
Too bad that the FBI was and still is full of Clinton haters, or voters in 2016 might have learnt what they needed to know.
__________________
Prediction
https://xkcd.com/2370/
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th September 2020, 12:27 PM   #625
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 47,239
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
nonsense.

The only sense in which Page was target unfairly was that Trump wasn't targeted, too, for fear of looking like the FBI/DOJ was helping Clinton.
And, of course, Manafort should have been under the microscope from the start as well as Flynn, Cohen, Stone - everyone in the Trump orbit, as subsequent investigations have proven.
Too bad that the FBI was and still is full of Clinton haters, or voters in 2016 might have learnt what they needed to know.
Are you ignoring the forging of documents, or excusing it?
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th September 2020, 04:52 PM   #626
Lurch
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 1,545
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Are you ignoring the forging of documents, or excusing it?
Does this "forging of documents" you refer to concern the alteration of an email by some lower-or mid-level FBI agent? Now, I haven't followed this stuff so closely from up here, and I'm sure I'm missing something. But my impression is not of some grand and sweeping "forging" having gone on. To wit; the IG investigation found the surveillance to have been properly predicated.

I get the feeling that Trumpco defenders try to use some small (in the bigger picture) malfeasance or misfeasance as a lever or wedge by which to taint the whole shebang. As though 95% truth is as bad as 100% lies.

Where humans are concerned, there is never angelic purity. And the larger the number of actors, the greater the chance for human frailty to manifest. People are not robots, devoid of passions and emotion. Cops are motivated to root out criminals.

Must investigators be held to the standard of saintly adherence to process always, else all their work is rendered invalid? Would you demand the same if your child was abducted and killed, and a suspect was under the microscope?
Lurch is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th September 2020, 05:20 PM   #627
varwoche
Penultimate Amazing
 
varwoche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Puget Sound
Posts: 15,149
The Banana Republican will accept the outcome of a free and fair election...
McEnany:
"The president will accept the result of a free and fair election."

Pence:
"The American people can be confident we will accept the outcome of a free and fair election."

Meadows:
"I think he commits to a peaceful transfer as long as it is a fair election."

Trump:
"The only way we’re going to lose this election is if the election is rigged."
... only if he wins.
__________________
To survive election season on a skeptics forum, one must understand Hymie-the-Robot.
My authority is total - Trump
varwoche is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th September 2020, 07:19 PM   #628
Roger Ramjets
Philosopher
 
Roger Ramjets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 5,012
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
This isn't going to be a blowout.
If it was that would just be more evidence of voter fraud!
__________________
We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.
Roger Ramjets is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th September 2020, 08:20 PM   #629
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 13,160
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Are you ignoring the forging of documents, or excusing it?
you know who else ignores them?

Everyone who investigated the issue, including the IG. And even Barr said that the "forging" didn't alter the results.

there is no "there" there, no matter how much you hope there is: Trump is at the center of a pack of criminals, and yet you blame people for investigating them.
Law and order my ass.
__________________
Prediction
https://xkcd.com/2370/
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th September 2020, 08:28 PM   #630
cosmicaug
Graduate Poster
 
cosmicaug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,073
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
there is no "there" there, no matter how much you hope there is: Trump is at the center of a pack of criminals,
[...]
The guy is unlucky, I guess.
__________________
--
August Pamplona
cosmicaug is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th September 2020, 11:38 PM   #631
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 83,720
Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Reporter: Win, lose or draw in this election, will you commit here today for a peaceful transferal of power after the election?

Trump: We want to get rid of the ballots, and we’ll have a very peaceful — there won’t be a transfer, frankly. There’ll be a continuation.

Show of hands... Anyone holding onto the illusion delusion that it can't happen here?


Theoretically it could happen, but Trump is just pulling his usual **** and the news media is falling for it yet again. He says something outrageous and it occupies the news for days. He gets his ego gratification watching himself. But to the detriment of the rest of us, everything else re the campaign gets drowned out.

If the election is close in a couple states he might be able to gum up the works with lawsuits. But as for trying to stop the vote counts after 24 hours? That's nonsense.

Then when he loses who is going to support his refusal to leave office? A few contracted mercenaries, some rural police departments and the border patrol?

Who's going to control that ragtag army? Certainly not Trump or Barr.

This whole thing is Trump's wet dream, nothing more, (except the news media being fooled again).
__________________
Thousands of COMMUTATIONS GRANTED BY PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA (2009-2017)

Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 25th September 2020 at 11:41 PM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th September 2020, 11:58 PM   #632
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 13,160
What Trump is doing is more than just saying outrageous things to stay in the news.
he is trying to normalize an ongoing plan.

Just like Hoffeller planed to use the Census to cement GOP rule, there is now a new guy who wants to do the same with State Electors:

his name is Hans von Spakovsky

https://www.propublica.org/article/n...tion-officials
__________________
Prediction
https://xkcd.com/2370/

Last edited by The Great Zaganza; 25th September 2020 at 11:59 PM.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2020, 12:24 AM   #633
Squeegee Beckenheim
Penultimate Amazing
 
Squeegee Beckenheim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 30,182
Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
The Banana Republican will accept the outcome of a free and fair election...
McEnany:
"The president will accept the result of a free and fair election."

Pence:
"The American people can be confident we will accept the outcome of a free and fair election."

Meadows:
"I think he commits to a peaceful transfer as long as it is a fair election."

Trump:
"The only way we’re going to lose this election is if the election is rigged."
... only if he wins.
I don't think any of those quotes are actually saying anything different. I think Trump's quote is implied in all the previous quotes.
__________________
I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.
Squeegee Beckenheim is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2020, 01:46 AM   #634
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 83,720
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
What Trump is doing is more than just saying outrageous things to stay in the news.
he is trying to normalize an ongoing plan.

Just like Hoffeller planed to use the Census to cement GOP rule, there is now a new guy who wants to do the same with State Electors:

his name is Hans von Spakovsky

https://www.propublica.org/article/n...tion-officials
Sorry: "Page not found." But I've seen that stuff where supposedly GOP run states take over their election outcomes. I think that is someone's crackpot idea.

But say all that is true, how does Trump pull his imaginary scenario off? No one is going to object to this GOP control of state vote outcomes? Really?
__________________
Thousands of COMMUTATIONS GRANTED BY PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA (2009-2017)

Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 26th September 2020 at 01:50 AM.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2020, 01:59 AM   #635
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 13,160
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Sorry: "Page not found." But I've seen that stuff where supposedly GOP run states take over their election outcomes. I think that is someone's crackpot idea.

But say all that is true, how does Trump pull his imaginary scenario off? No one is going to object to this GOP control of state vote outcomes? Really?
[sorry for the broken link.]


That's the not the point.
The point is to mess things up so badly on election day and with mail-ballots before and after that Red States can claim to be unable to make any decision.
And how do you challenge that, when key polling place were shut down because of MAGA-thugs or Covid scares, and mail-in ballots got lost or never posted due to absence of drop-boxes (which is what's going on right now).

If through legal battles the argument can be made that there is no clear winner in a State, the SC won't be able to do anything but let the States do what they want with their Electors.


note: fixed link:

https://www.propublica.org/article/b...ng-fraud-fears
__________________
Prediction
https://xkcd.com/2370/

Last edited by The Great Zaganza; 26th September 2020 at 02:03 AM.
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2020, 02:08 AM   #636
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 83,720
IIRC this control of EC delegates came up in 2016 when people thought they could sneak Bernie supporter delegates into the EC convention and it was determined they had to vote for who they were committed to. They were not independent delegates. The following article describes that history and the WA State SC outcome. But there is more.

Constitution Center; August 26, 2019: Can states control how presidential electors vote?
Quote:
When the Supreme Court reopens a new session in October, awaiting the Justices in the pile of work that built up over their summer recess will be a major constitutional case over how America elects its President. It is a dispute as current as the last election, in 2016, when seven members of the Electoral College did not vote the way they were instructed to do.

A deep split over whether those 2016 electors acted illegally, or whether they had a constitutional right to do what they did, has now developed in lower courts. A split like that often enhances the prospect that the Justices will feel a duty to step in and provide a definite answer....
It may not be settled law but:
Quote:
The Tenth Circuit Court released its decision last Tuesday. By a 2-to-1 vote, it ruled that, once an elector goes to the Electoral College to cast a vote after a Presidential election, the state from which that elector came loses all power to control how the elector did vote.

It also ruled, in its 114-page majority opinion, that those who drafted the original Constitution and the 12th Amendment (changing the Electoral College process) intended that presidential electors would use their own discretion in deciding how to vote. The words of the Constitution itself, the opinion said, “imply the right to make a choice or voice an individual opinion….Electors, once appointed, are free to vote as they choose.”

While the Constitution gives states broad power to choose the method of selecting Presidential electors, that power does not include the authority to remove them and cancel their vote if they do not support the statewide winner, the majority ruled.
Maybe someone else can hunt down what has happened in the courts since.
__________________
Thousands of COMMUTATIONS GRANTED BY PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA (2009-2017)

Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2020, 02:15 AM   #637
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 13,160
SC rule Chiafalo v. Washington, 2020

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiafalo_v._Washington


basically, States can do whatever they want to assure that Electors vote the according to the popular vote in the State.
__________________
Prediction
https://xkcd.com/2370/
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2020, 02:17 AM   #638
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 83,720
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
[sorry for the broken link.]


That's the not the point.
The point is to mess things up so badly on election day and with mail-ballots before and after that Red States can claim to be unable to make any decision.
And how do you challenge that, when key polling place were shut down because of MAGA-thugs or Covid scares, and mail-in ballots got lost or never posted due to absence of drop-boxes (which is what's going on right now).

If through legal battles the argument can be made that there is no clear winner in a State, the SC won't be able to do anything but let the States do what they want with their Electors.


note: fixed link:

https://www.propublica.org/article/b...ng-fraud-fears
Ohio election outcome, IMO, has been rigged since Ken Blackwell interfered in the Bush election.

Ohio has 18 EC votes and currently leans toward Biden by a very small margin. Hopefully Biden does not need Ohio.

How many states do you think will have such a close race that the outcome will be challenged? In WA State, an all mail-in vote state, observers from both parties are allowed to observe the ballot counting. There is no reason Democratic observers cannot be involved to ensure honest counting of mail in ballots.
__________________
Thousands of COMMUTATIONS GRANTED BY PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA (2009-2017)

Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2020, 02:25 AM   #639
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 83,720
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
SC rule Chiafalo v. Washington, 2020

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiafalo_v._Washington


basically, States can do whatever they want to assure that Electors vote the according to the popular vote in the State.
Bolding mine.

From the Wiki link:
Quote:
states have the ability to enforce an elector's pledge in presidential elections.
I think you are misinterpreting this to mean the states can do whatever they want when the actual ruling is states can compel electors to vote the way they were appointed to vote.

Quote:
... a similar case based on a challenge to a Colorado law providing for the removal and replacement of an elector who does not vote for the presidential candidate who received the most votes in the state, ... the cases were decided separately on July 6, 2020. Baca was a per curiam decision that followed from the unanimous ruling in Chiafalo in favor of the state.
The electors had to follow the state winner, not that the states could do anything they wanted regardless of the winner of the state vote.
__________________
Thousands of COMMUTATIONS GRANTED BY PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA (2009-2017)

Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. It's the American way. That's how Mnuchin got rich. Worse, he did it on the backs of elderly people who had been conned into reverse mortgages. Mnuchin paid zero, took on the debt then taxpayers bailed him out.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2020, 02:34 AM   #640
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 13,160
Sorry if I was unclear.

What I meant was that it was fine for State to threaten fines to Electors for not voting for the State Winner or replace Electors at the drop of a hat if it looks like they might be faithless.

It does not mean that States can make Electors vote for the loser.


The case I'm thinking of is when the State certifies a winner even though there is no clear election result due to numerous irregularities.
Then the Electors could be forced by the States to vote for the certified winner, even if the Electors have reason to believe that that candidate would have lost in a regular election.
__________________
Prediction
https://xkcd.com/2370/
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:22 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.