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Tags Coronavirus , Coronavirus conspiracies , donald trump , Trump controversies

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Old 10th September 2020, 08:57 AM   #121
johnny karate
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Trump downplayed Covid and therefore many Americans, especially his followers, downplayed it. Downplaying it is a primary cause of the spread and resultant deaths. Had he not downplayed it, there wouldn't be as many deaths. I think that's pretty undeniable. Can you imagine how different things would have been if he had come out and been as direct as he was on those tapes? All those people protesting mask usage and lockdowns would have been quiet. The governors would have taken it way more seriously and enforced longer lockdowns. Trump wouldn't have been saying "let's open businesses fast." It would have been a totally different outcome. It's fair to lay the responsibility for all those incaculable excess deaths that occured at Trump's feet.

However, if you want to call it murder, I think that's hyperbole. If you think it's literally murder then you must also think that Bob Woodward (among others) is an accomplice to murder. He could have released the tapes when he recorded them. He could have shown the country that Trump was downplaying it and what Trump actually knew to be the truth about the situation. That may have had an impact; he could have at least tried. Instead, he withheld that information in order to sell books. Basically, Woodward allowed the murders to happen with no warning for his own personal gain.

If Woodward was writing about a suspected murderer and he had the suspect on tape saying he did it and was going to continue doing it, Woodward would have a duty to warn potential victims. He would have to take those tapes to the police. He could not just let the murders happen so that he could write about the murders and sell books. If you believe Trump's actions constitute murder, then Woodward had the same duty. If Trump and his accomplices in government should be tried for murder, then so should Woodward.

It's not murder; it's gross incompetence at best and negligence at worst. It was a bad decision to downplay the virus. That decision had tragic consequences. Trump should be impeached for lying to the American public and mishandling the Covid pandemic. He should at least lose this election by a landslide. But it's not literally murder.

Resolved: The thread title and OP is pure hyperbole.
How is Woodward an accomplice?

What specific actions could be have taken?

And what specific difference would those actions have made?
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Old 10th September 2020, 08:58 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Many things can justify impeachment, but this isn't a case of murder. In any case, voting him out in November would accomplish much the same thing and likely be more expedient.
yeah, but what Trump is telling Bob in the interview is what Republicans got briefed on during the Senate Trial.

They knew Trump was downplaying the risk, which is why some of them insider-traded on the intel.

Republicans had the chance to replace Trump with someone who cared at least a bit and didn't.

They are as guilty of dereliction of duty as Trump is.
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Old 10th September 2020, 09:01 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
yeah, but what Trump is telling Bob in the interview is what Republicans got briefed on during the Senate Trial.

They knew Trump was downplaying the risk, which is why some of them insider-traded on the intel.

Republicans had the chance to replace Trump with someone who cared at least a bit and didn't.

They are as guilty of dereliction of duty as Trump is.
Right.... Dereliction of Duty..... Not murder... the OP is disingenuous
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Old 10th September 2020, 09:03 AM   #124
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Trump's defence is that if what he said was bad, then Woodward would have released it earlier
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Old 10th September 2020, 09:13 AM   #125
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Right.... Dereliction of Duty..... Not murder... the OP is disingenuous
not interested in the OP - already said in my 1st post here it isn't murder.

I'm interested if you think Trump should be impeached over this.
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Old 10th September 2020, 09:15 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
not interested in the OP - already said in my 1st post here it isn't murder.

I'm interested if you think Trump should be impeached over this.
And I said in principle yes, but voting him out given the election being so close would be more expedient.
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Old 10th September 2020, 09:19 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
The trumpkins on this board parroted him before he had even said it .

That, and "hey, see this strand of hair? Imma split it in two! Look, I'll take this scalpel, and... like this... no, don't talk about the tapes, look at me, I'm splitting a hair!"
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Old 10th September 2020, 09:26 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I don't understand this. Nothing about Woodward's opinion of the matter should concern people capable of reaching their own conclusion.
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Old 10th September 2020, 09:29 AM   #129
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Tucker Carlson has started the bus-throwing - he's blaming Lindsay Graham for allegedly persuading Trump to do the interviews, supposedly as a plot to undermine Trump's "MAGA agenda"
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Old 10th September 2020, 09:40 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
To be fair, that's exactly what Lindsay would do.
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Old 10th September 2020, 09:47 AM   #131
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Gotta love when the best Trump’s defenders can do is tell us how it’s technically not murder.

Also, whatabouters, if you’re waiting for someone to defend drone strikes - particularly in urban areas in countries with which we were not at war - you’ll be waiting a long time. Liberals criticized Obama when he ordered them. I’m quite comfortable calling him a murderer for that kind of situation.
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Old 10th September 2020, 10:04 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
How is Woodward an accomplice?

What specific actions could be have taken?

And what specific difference would those actions have made?
Well, given that I don't think it's murder, it's a moot point. Woodward can't be an accomplice to a crime that didn't happen.

But if someone like the OP thinks it's literally murder, I think I laid it out pretty plainly in my post. I'll explore it further. Maybe "accomplice" isn't the right term. Accessory? In any case, the elements of the supposed crime are as follows: 1)Trump knew the true deadly nature of the virus; 2)He downplayed the virus to the American public for his own gain; 3)That action directly killed people. Mens Rea: Political Gain; Murder Weapon: Lies and inaction.

Woodward knew of both the Mens Rea and the use of the Murder Weapon. He hid this knowledge until now, after the murders have been committed, for his own personal gain. Whether or not revealing the knowledge beforehand would have made a specific difference is irrelevant. He is still an accessory (or whatever) to murder.

If Woodward had been interviewing a suspected killer and he had knowledge that the suspect was guilty and planned to kill again but didn't say anything until more murders had occurred so that he could capitalize on the infamy of the crimes, he would be an accessory.

Put another way, I think the Woodward revelation is huge. I think if these tapes had come out at the time Trump was downplaying the virus -early on- it would have had some impact. To hear Trump, early on in the pandemic, say that the virus was real, deadly and tricky to tackle would have made it impossible to believe him when he said the virus was just going to go away, that it was a hoax, etc. I can't speculate on how much of an impact, but I think it would have made a lot of people take it a bit more seriously than they did. Trump had the primary duty to act and to warn us of the danger. Woodward also had a duty to warn us when Trump downplayed it early on in the pandemic.
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Old 10th September 2020, 10:05 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Since Woodward sat on this for months, I guess that makes him an accomplice to murder.
As someone once said:
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That's a non-sequitor.
And to paraphrase:
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Wow. [snip] butt-hurt because your god-king was insulted. Well, if [Trump] doesn't have thin skin, his followers certainly do.
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Old 10th September 2020, 10:10 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
So let me clarify: Trump doesn't think it was wrong? He thinks it is ok that he downplayed the seriousness of the situation?

Because that is how I am reading it.

I mean, is the argument "Bob Woodward thinks it was ok that he downplayed the pandemic, and therefore it is ok that he did it"?

Of course, it's the same crowd that whines that journalists are making political statements and not just reporting the news. Now the complaint is that Woodward didn't publish something that made him look bad soon enough?
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Old 10th September 2020, 10:18 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
I mean, is the argument "Bob Woodward thinks it was ok that he downplayed the pandemic, and therefore it is ok that he did it"?
Cue all the Trump apologist pearl clutching "Nobody is saying that! Show me where anyone said that!" routine.
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Old 10th September 2020, 10:24 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Since Woodward sat on this for months, I guess that makes him an accomplice to murder.
Does Woodward dictate the federal response to the pandemic?

If you want to call him an ass for sitting on this that's fine, but even if he released it right away would it have made any difference? I think not. Trump would have still let people die for political purposes.

But nice attempt to distract with whataboutism.
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Old 10th September 2020, 10:29 AM   #137
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So there we have it. The trumptroopers stand by Trump even when he admits to allowing a pandemic kill 200 000 Americans. That's it. I'm done. I'm writing them all off. Clinton was ahead of her time. They really are irredeemable.

Wearing a MAGA hat is like wearing a swastika at this point.
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Old 10th September 2020, 10:41 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Well, given that I don't think it's murder, it's a moot point. Woodward can't be an accomplice to a crime that didn't happen.

But if someone like the OP thinks it's literally murder, I think I laid it out pretty plainly in my post. I'll explore it further. Maybe "accomplice" isn't the right term. Accessory? In any case, the elements of the supposed crime are as follows: 1)Trump knew the true deadly nature of the virus; 2)He downplayed the virus to the American public for his own gain; 3)That action directly killed people. Mens Rea: Political Gain; Murder Weapon: Lies and inaction.

Woodward knew of both the Mens Rea and the use of the Murder Weapon. He hid this knowledge until now, after the murders have been committed, for his own personal gain. Whether or not revealing the knowledge beforehand would have made a specific difference is irrelevant. He is still an accessory (or whatever) to murder.
That Trump was downplaying the virus was already known. What Woodward is giving is isn’t a revelation, it’s a confirmation. We literally all saw it happen in real time. So the knowledge wasn’t “hidden”.

Quote:
If Woodward had been interviewing a suspected killer and he had knowledge that the suspect was guilty and planned to kill again but didn't say anything until more murders had occurred so that he could capitalize on the infamy of the crimes, he would be an accessory.
What made Trump a “suspected killer” at the time that Woodward interviewed him? How and when did Woodward have reasonable knowledge that Trump planned to “kill again”?

Quote:
Put another way, I think the Woodward revelation is huge.
Again, not a revelation.

Quote:
I think if these tapes had come out at the time Trump was downplaying the virus -early on- it would have had some impact. To hear Trump, early on in the pandemic, say that the virus was real, deadly and tricky to tackle would have made it impossible to believe him when he said the virus was just going to go away, that it was a hoax, etc. I can't speculate on how much of an impact, but I think it would have made a lot of people take it a bit more seriously than they did.
What specific people do you think would have had their minds changed? And why do you think that the word of Bob Woodward would have made a difference when all the other evidence that was in plain sight didn’t?

Quote:
Trump had the primary duty to act and to warn us of the danger. Woodward also had a duty to warn us when Trump downplayed it early on in the pandemic.
At this point, it would be helpful for you to cite the relevant statutes and/or case law to support your claims.
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Old 10th September 2020, 10:47 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Cue all the Trump apologist pearl clutching "Nobody is saying that! Show me where anyone said that!" routine.
again, if intended for me, all said was it clearly isn't murder; it was handled badly, but the OP's use of hyperbole makes the op's title nothing but a lie, which belittles the intended message. The facts are bad enough on their own, to "embellish" them further is a Michael Moore kinda move.
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Old 10th September 2020, 10:48 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
So there we have it. The trumptroopers stand by Trump even when he admits to allowing a pandemic kill 200 000 Americans. That's it. I'm done. I'm writing them all off. Clinton was ahead of her time. They really are irredeemable.

Wearing a MAGA hat is like wearing a swastika at this point.
Godwin invoked.
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Old 10th September 2020, 11:19 AM   #141
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Disputing the OP's claim doesn't have to be viewed as apologetics all the time.

Isn't the point of this subforum political skepticism.
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Old 10th September 2020, 11:21 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Disputing the OP's claim doesn't have to be viewed as apologetics all the time.

Isn't the point of this subforum political skepticism.
One would think, and some from the left are disputing the OP Title rightly as a brazen embellishment, so maybe there's some hope. But you can also easily tell who the die hards are who who have no issue with truth bending themselves.
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Old 10th September 2020, 11:31 AM   #143
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I mean there was a good debate going until the end of page 3.

I think Trump just sounded extremely out of touch and uneasy in the position he was in. His public statements were just way too reassuring; didn't reflect how serious it really was and indeed how serious he thought it was. That's the problem with having a sociopath in the White House.
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Old 10th September 2020, 12:16 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
No one said that. I think Trump should be removed immediately given what we now know. I just don't think it helps anything to say, "Trump is guilty, literally, of murder." That kind of obviously false hyperbole* leads to a lot of people tuning out and not listening to what should be the core message: Trump lied to the American people and in so doing, made a bad situation worse. His decisions lead to needless deaths.


*Obama, for example, would be literally guilty of murder because of the "collateral damage" in the drone strikes he ordered. Just about every US President (hell, every world leader) has taken (or not taken) actions where the result was needless death. That's not murder. It does no good to call it murder.
I would think there's at least a qualitative difference between collateral damage in overseas drone strikes against enemies and letting one's own citizens needlessly die of a disease that resulted from deliberately lying to them.

If "America first" is to hold any meaning. In any event, a leader's cares are directed first and foremost upon his own citizenry. To relegate the negligent killing of Americans to the same level as for extra-nationals is in practice an abhorrent concept to Americans. As it should be.

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Old 10th September 2020, 12:21 PM   #145
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I can just see the Trumptrash now, claiming Trump was only guilty of manslaughter instead of murder. It's going to go down big with the American people.
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Old 10th September 2020, 12:22 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
And I said in principle yes, but voting him out given the election being so close would be more expedient.
Still time to do the principled thing, and hang TWO impeachments around the bastard's neck. And remember, impeachment is effected as soon as the House votes, not upon the conclusion of whatever sham 'trial' the Senate conducts.

A doubly-impeached vile incompetent also voted out would be a sweeter victory and a more deserving legacy.
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Old 10th September 2020, 12:28 PM   #147
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But, hang on, what if, in theory, Chump's impeached, right around or even after the election -- and then he gets voted in again?

That's a nightmare scenario, Chump getting voted in again -- but leaving that aside, how might that work out? The impeachment is for this term, right, so does that leave him free to play at being President again?
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Old 10th September 2020, 12:31 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
That Trump was downplaying the virus was already known. What Woodward is giving is isn’t a revelation, it’s a confirmation. We literally all saw it happen in real time. So the knowledge wasn’t “hidden”.



What made Trump a “suspected killer” at the time that Woodward interviewed him? How and when did Woodward have reasonable knowledge that Trump planned to “kill again”?



Again, not a revelation.



What specific people do you think would have had their minds changed? And why do you think that the word of Bob Woodward would have made a difference when all the other evidence that was in plain sight didn’t?



At this point, it would be helpful for you to cite the relevant statutes and/or case law to support your claims.

It’s not a legal argument but a moral one. Remember, I don’t think there is a legal case here, murder or otherwise. Trump had a moral duty to protect us and so did Woodward.

I disagree that this confirmation is not also a revelation. Many speculated about Trump knowing the truth and hiding it. But the only words we had out of his mouth were words indicating that it was a hoax, it would go away, etc. That he actually voiced this understanding of the reality is revelatory of his true motivations, even if it confirmed suspicions that were already floating around.
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Old 10th September 2020, 12:42 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Even so, if we're splitting hairs, manslaughter, isn't murder. Murder is defined as done with intent, which as badly as he's handled Covid doesnt meet the definition. Those in the thread screaming otherwise are neck deep in their own hyperbole and intended hysteria. It's negligence, plain and simple.
Never heard of "negligent homicide" or "depraved indifference murder" then?
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Old 10th September 2020, 12:43 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
It’s not a legal argument but a moral one. Remember, I don’t think there is a legal case here, murder or otherwise. Trump had a moral duty to protect us and so did Woodward
Except that Woodward did not have the power to influence the administration's policy on Covid 19 response... Trump did!
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Old 10th September 2020, 12:50 PM   #151
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Trump is actually blaming Woodward for not coming out and telling people that the virus was airborne. It wasn't his duty, it was somehow Woodward's.

ETA: Trump also claimed that the flu kills 100,000 people yearly which is not true unless you go back to the 1918 pandemic to justify his knowing that covid is 5X deadlier.

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Old 10th September 2020, 12:55 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Never heard of "negligent homicide" or "depraved indifference murder" then?
They sure as hell wouldn't be doing all this hair-splitting if a black person pleaded down to manslaughter for killing a white one.
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Old 10th September 2020, 12:55 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
But, hang on, what if, in theory, Chump's impeached, right around or even after the election -- and then he gets voted in again?

That's a nightmare scenario, Chump getting voted in again -- but leaving that aside, how might that work out? The impeachment is for this term, right, so does that leave him free to play at being President again?
If the Senate convicts a President and removes them from office during an Impeachment, they have the option of adding a "And can no longer hold an elected office" addendum to it. Specifically Article I, section 3, clause 7 of the Constitution which states: “Judgment in cases of impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any office of honor, trust or profit under the United States."

So theoretically it's up to the Senate who impeached Trump to decide if he can try to run again or not.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...ply&p=13219221
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Old 10th September 2020, 12:56 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
So there we have it. The trumptroopers stand by Trump even when he admits to allowing a pandemic kill 200 000 Americans. That's it. I'm done. I'm writing them all off. Clinton was ahead of her time. They really are irredeemable.

Wearing a MAGA hat is like wearing a swastika at this point.
It will end up being a lot more than that...the USA is still running at 500 to 750 Covid-19 deaths... per DAY! Its falling, but very slowly. By Election day, you'll have another 30 to 40 thousand deaths!
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Old 10th September 2020, 01:06 PM   #155
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Trump just now justified once again not telling the truth to the American people and downplaying the seriousness of the situation by blaming Woodward for not revealing what Trump said on the tape right away. He again deflected blame from himself to Woodward with a bunch of BS which is his common go to. "Not my fault!"
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Old 10th September 2020, 01:20 PM   #156
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The tapes are fake news. Trump will deliver the transcripts of the actual tapes, written in sharpie and with crayon illustrations of the corona virus and stick figure chinamen.
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Old 10th September 2020, 01:20 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Trump just now justified once again not telling the truth to the American people and downplaying the seriousness of the situation by blaming Woodward for not revealing what Trump said on the tape right away. He again deflected blame from himself to Woodward with a bunch of BS which is his common go to. "Not my fault!"
It's a dumb argument. Trump is 100% at fault for his own actions. Woodward's actions have no bearing on what Trump was able to do as POTUS. We can argue about whether or not Woodward deserves criticism but that has nothing to do with the fact that Trump lied and did nothing about the pandemic.
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Old 10th September 2020, 01:25 PM   #158
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Jesus, four pages of blabbing. Why is everyone hung up on this lie? It was perfect.
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Old 10th September 2020, 01:32 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Jesus, four pages of blabbing. Why is everyone hung up on this lie? It was perfect.
We're liberals. We like to be triggered by things.
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Old 10th September 2020, 01:58 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
It's a dumb argument. Trump is 100% at fault for his own actions. Woodward's actions have no bearing on what Trump was able to do as POTUS. We can argue about whether or not Woodward deserves criticism but that has nothing to do with the fact that Trump lied and did nothing about the pandemic.
Agree 100%. The whole Woodward bit is nothing but a deflection and I couldn't care less about what Woodward should or shouldn't have done. It's what Trump did...or rather didn't do... that matters.

That the Republicans in Congress are running to Trump's defense now or at least running for cover with the usual "I haven't read the book" nonsense just goes to show what cowards they are. Shame on them.

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