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Tags Coronavirus , Coronavirus conspiracies , donald trump , Trump controversies

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Old 11th September 2020, 05:51 PM   #321
Cain
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
It seems they are using Deaths/Total population (the usually cited figure is Deaths/Million) to make their case. Not that they make that clear in the article, but that's the only "rate" that approaches those numbers. OK, I understand the methodology, but I'm not sure that's a definitive way of illustrating how bad the US response has been. The US, Canada, EU, Switzerland . . . those are all major countries/unions that have a Deaths/Million significantly over the world average and very significantly over the rates of countries like Japan, Singapore, Australia, South Korea, etc. If the US response is judged according to this figure, then there are very few countries in the developed world who have handled this situation well at all. Peru and Belgium must be run by murderous psychopaths!
The comparison to the EU and Canada seems rather obvious: They share cultural and geographical similarities. Australia, Japan, and New Zealand have a natural physical advantage too obvious to point out. Singapore and S. Korea are extraordinarily well-ordered societies inhabited by level 30 Asians. This is about being more like your big brother, not some super-freak achievement-machine in school.

Quote:
No, these numbers, at this stage in the game, are not very useful for assessing response with enough granularity to say that Trump is guilty of murder while somehow not making the same claims about the leaders of every country who didn't keep deaths to the absolute minimum. If we compare Canada and the US to South Korea, for example, Justin Trudeau is maybe Jeffry Dahmer and Donald Trump is John Wayne Gacy. I mean, as long as we are going with the murder thing and using that particular figure to make the case.
I'm not interested in claiming Trump is a murderer. He's an incompetent boob, and Americans are stupid.
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Old 11th September 2020, 06:04 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
... I'm not interested in claiming Trump is a murderer. He's an incompetent boob, and Americans are stupid.
if there was a court of ethics, that's where he should be charged with murder. Mass murder. But there isn't.

You're going too easy on him by a long shot. It's obvious that re-election is his primary concern, at the expense of human lives, knowingly, proven on tape. That's 'evil', not merely incompetent.
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Old 11th September 2020, 06:06 PM   #323
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post

I'm not interested in claiming Trump is a murderer. He's an incompetent evil boob, and Americans Trump supporters are stupid.
FTFY
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Old 11th September 2020, 10:04 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
again, if intended for me, all said was it clearly isn't murder; it was handled badly, but the OP's use of hyperbole makes the op's title nothing but a lie, which belittles the intended message. The facts are bad enough on their own, to "embellish" them further is a Michael Moore kinda move.
I'm sure trump was down-playing when he said it was a "Democratic Hoax"?
Or when he said "I take no responsibility" after already knowing the seriousness of the virus and his responsibility, as President, to protect the people of his own damn country?
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Old 12th September 2020, 03:59 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
if there was a court of ethics, that's where he should be charged with murder. Mass murder. But there isn't.

You're going too easy on him by a long shot. It's obvious that re-election is his primary concern, at the expense of human lives, knowingly, proven on tape. That's 'evil', not merely incompetent.
Trump's defining characteristic is his narcissism, which re-election serves. He's not cartoonishly evil (per se); he's cartoonishly vain. I think when Donald Trump tells Bob Woodward in early Feb. (when there was one official death) that this virus is a super-devastating killer, Trump thinks that the public will later marvel at how his administration handled things behind the scenes because America will be left relatively unscathed. More than a month later, as the death toll starts to mount, he tells Woodward that he downplayed it to the public, as if he was outwitting the virus, avoiding panic, makin' moves, settin' up knight forks n' ****. A couple of days before his "downplay" statement to Woodward, Trump infamously remarked, "I felt it was a pandemic before people were even calling it a pandemic."

Trump probably really does believe that if anyone else were president, the country would be far more devastated. What's the alternative? He thinks someone else could have done a better job?

What do you think's happening? "I'm going to lie so that a bunch of people die, but despite all of that bigly-dying, it's going to somehow help me win re-election, especially when the most famous journalist in America releases a book documenting that I really did foresee mass-death"??

This is sort of like processing Saddam Hussein's repeated statements about WMDs. On the one hand, he's saying he's got nothing to hide, but then he also does this wink-wink as if he really has weapons. As it turns out, Hussein didn't want his enemies to know that he was just holding his dick in his hand. Trump is telling an unofficial biographer that things are potentially terrible because he thinks it's not going to be all that bad. Essentially, Hussein and Trump are saying what they actually believe in public (or closer to what they believe), and saying something they don't believe in secret, and observers are naturally inclined to believe that what people say in secret more accurately reflects their true beliefs. Trump was in effect "playing up" the virus to Woodward. The only thing Trump actually believes in is his own genius, which makes him an idiot.

Now, if Trump's sooooo clumsy and dumb, then how did he get to be president? Because Americans are idiots. Stacy can keep saying it's just the Trump supporters, or mostly the Trump supporters, but who did the Democrats nominate in all of their wisdom? And over 40% of the electorate didn't even vote. No, Americans are idiots.
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Last edited by Cain; 12th September 2020 at 04:32 AM. Reason: I need to proof-read
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Old 12th September 2020, 04:20 AM   #326
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
That is.... debatable, moving past OMB, had there been a faster reaction to Covid yes, the number likely would be lower, but your logic here seems to suggest the number would have been zero, that is unlikely in a Nation of over 300 million. Lessened likely, zero, no. People still would have dies as even now we dont know everything about Covid.

He handled it badly yes, deserved derision for a **** response yes, but even now in your response you want it to be akin to war crimes and it isn't. Again, use the argument against teh border camps you have a point, here with Covid, no you don't. He simply isnt responsible for the outbreak, just the crappy handling of it, and yes, misinformation. Not murder, not direct responsibilty for it, just dereliction of his own.
The highlighted is quite....despicable. I take it that no one in your family got it or died from it. Yeah, you would be singing a whole different tune if so.
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Old 12th September 2020, 06:15 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
<snip for brevity>
Excellent points.

Still, up to present day, knowing how badly it's played out, his words and actions are sociopathic.

Quote:
Now, if Trump's sooooo clumsy and dumb, then how did he get to be president? Because Americans are idiots. Stacy can keep saying it's just the Trump supporters, or mostly the Trump supporters, but who did the Democrats nominate in all of their wisdom? And over 40% of the electorate didn't even vote. No, Americans are idiots.
Every time I wonder if I'm underestimating the voting (and non voting) public, I conclude that I am not.

The problem with these moments of agreement (in general), and now in particular as to Biden's nomination, is we may have very different concepts as to who would have been a wise choice. I'm not even sure.
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Old 12th September 2020, 06:27 AM   #328
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
... These recordings now prove that, while he is still an idiot, that's not the reason we're in the mess we're in now. He knew how bad it was, and chose to act as he did.
I wager it will come to pass that he and many others took Covid-19 as an act of Gawd (blond, blue-eyed Jesus version), as it disproportionately affects all those they hate. That the fact that it does so is damning evidence of the systemic discrimination they practice is lost on their slick, dark souls, a thought so far above where their stunted imaginations can reach that it might as well be on the other side of the cosmos.
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Old 12th September 2020, 07:16 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Still, up to present day, knowing how badly it's played out, his words and actions are sociopathic.
Agreed, but it's all about the vanity. He has rallies that could/will get people killed. The point is glorying in Trump, not people dying. He wants to win re-election, yet his campaign has spent over a million dollars advertising on television in Washington DC. "Mr. President, any time you want, as often as you want, we can just SHOW YOU the ads we've put together." No, their audience of one needs to see the commercial when Fox & Friends cuts to a break. Trump BSes everyone, including Woodward. Including himself.
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Old 12th September 2020, 11:39 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Now, if Trump's sooooo clumsy and dumb, then how did he get to be president? Because Americans are idiots. Stacy can keep saying it's just the Trump supporters, or mostly the Trump supporters, but who did the Democrats nominate in all of their wisdom? And over 40% of the electorate didn't even vote. No, Americans are idiots.
Nominating Clinton in 2016 was not an idiot move by the Democrats. Clinton was actually an excellent choice. It was those who fell for the decades of Clinton smear tactics by the Republicans, pissed of Bernie Bros, and those who were too complacent to bother to get off their butts to vote who were the idiots, and the damn electoral system that put Trump in the WH.
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Old 12th September 2020, 01:52 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Agreed, but it's all about the vanity. He has rallies that could/will get people killed. The point is glorying in Trump, not people dying.
But he is indifferent to people dying for that cause, and stupid enough to admit it on tape. How is this not cartoonishly evil?

Meyers on Woodward tapes: Trump is 'dumb enough to confess something so cartoonishly evil'
Quote:
“If you’re still wondering if this was an intentional strategy to hide the true danger of the situation from the American people, it was, because Trump confessed to that, too,” said Meyers...

Even after four years of the Trump rollercoaster inuring him to shock, Meyers added, the Woodward tapes got to him, although it was mostly shock that Trump was “dumb enough to confess something so cartoonishly evil to a reporter who was recording him. It was like if the Unabomber put a return address on all his packages.”

Originally Posted by Cain
Trump is telling an unofficial biographer that things are potentially terrible because he thinks it's not going to be all that bad. Essentially, Hussein and Trump are saying what they actually believe in public (or closer to what they believe), and saying something they don't believe in secret, and observers are naturally inclined to believe that what people say in secret more accurately reflects their true beliefs. Trump was in effect "playing up" the virus to Woodward. The only thing Trump actually believes in is his own genius, which makes him an idiot.
You are wrong.

Evil cartoon characters always confess their evil to the hero when they think he cannot stop them, right before they are about to finalize their plans. So Trump confessed to Woodward because he figured Woodward was powerless to stop him.

But that was then, this is now. Just like in a cartoon, the hero managed to escape from the evil dictator's clutches and spread the word. Now the people are on to his plan and his days are numbered.
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Old 12th September 2020, 02:10 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
But he is indifferent to people dying for that cause, and stupid enough to admit it on tape. How is this not cartoonishly evil?

Meyers on Woodward tapes: Trump is 'dumb enough to confess something so cartoonishly evil'


You are wrong.

Evil cartoon characters always confess their evil to the hero when they think he cannot stop them, right before they are about to finalize their plans. So Trump confessed to Woodward because he figured Woodward was powerless to stop him.

But that was then, this is now. Just like in a cartoon, the hero managed to escape from the evil dictator's clutches and spread the word. Now the people are on to his plan and his days are numbered.
I'm not seeing it. I actually began a reply to some poster a few days back (but didn't finish) saying that, at the beginning of the pandemic that Woodward, knowing Trump's propensity for BSing, would have had to see how the whole thing panned out before making an assessment.

I do agree with Cain that at the beginning Trump is still being all about Trump.
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Old 12th September 2020, 02:26 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again I'm comfortable being judged if "I'm not apologizing for Trump, I'm just going to jump up and down and scream about something else everytime criticism of him is brought up" is your answer.

You think you can hide behind distractions and pretend they anything other than defenses.
The only thing you've proven in this thread, which actually has a specific point, and that is as bad as Trump is, in relation to Covid, it isnt murder as the OP is wrong about all you can do is scream ORANGE MAN BAD as loud as you can and call all those who disagree with essentially nazis. Pathetic.
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Old 12th September 2020, 02:29 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by DetectedMotion View Post
I'm sure trump was down-playing when he said it was a "Democratic Hoax"?
Or when he said "I take no responsibility" after already knowing the seriousness of the virus and his responsibility, as President, to protect the people of his own damn country?
Still not murder. ******** yes, murder no.
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Old 12th September 2020, 02:31 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
The highlighted is quite....despicable. I take it that no one in your family got it or died from it. Yeah, you would be singing a whole different tune if so.
Your assumption is despicable. I know three who have died from it, but that doesnt change the fact it is a disease outbreak, you make it sound as if noone would have died if it had been handled sooner. The harsh reality is, less would have yes, but its a nasty sickness, and there would still been deaths while we were figuring out how to tackle it. Your expectation of a zero casualty result is unrealistic and frankly, stupid.
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Old 12th September 2020, 03:26 PM   #336
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
I'm not seeing it. I actually began a reply to some poster a few days back (but didn't finish) saying that, at the beginning of the pandemic that Woodward, knowing Trump's propensity for BSing, would have had to see how the whole thing panned out before making an assessment.
It's not a matter of whether he believed him. If Woodward had published Trump's 'confession' immediately he would have been locked out of further access and Trump would have done his best to destroy him. But that is not how investigative journalists work, and Trump knew that. Trump correctly figured Woodward would be ethically bound from releasing potentially damaging secret information willy-nilly. What if Trump was right, and it would cause panic? Woodward couldn't risk being accused of causing it.

And then it happened anyway. The stock market crashed for unrelated reasons, and Trump quickly changed his tune. On March 11 he banned international travel, and on March 13 he declared Covid-19 a national emergency. So Woodward only had a few weeks to decide whether publishing Trump's 'confession' was worth the risk. Knowing what we do now about the virus, he might have taken that risk. But at the time he - like most - probably didn't think it was that urgent.
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Old 12th September 2020, 03:29 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Nominating Clinton in 2016 was not an idiot move by the Democrats. Clinton was actually an excellent choice. It was those who fell for the decades of Clinton smear tactics by the Republicans, pissed of Bernie Bros, and those who were too complacent to bother to get off their butts to vote who were the idiots, and the damn electoral system that put Trump in the WH.
Events are always obvious in retrospect, but I thought Clinton would win. Two bigger factors that you didn't mention were Russian interference, and Comey's announcement. But still. Hillary Clinton has always sucked. If the Democratic establishment had not been so enamored with her, then others would have run, and someone could have edged Bernie and beaten Trump. Sanders might not have ever become a phenom if not for his match-up against Clinton in the first place.


Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Meyers on Woodward tapes: Trump is 'dumb enough to confess something so cartoonishly evil'

You are wrong.

Evil cartoon characters always confess their evil to the hero when they think he cannot stop them, right before they are about to finalize their plans. So Trump confessed to Woodward because he figured Woodward was powerless to stop him.
I was like, "who is this Meyers person? Oh, the comedian." All of this stuff has already been addressed, so I don't think it even merits a closer look.

Trump just told a journalist who has burned him once before that he's indeed completely evil because... he figured the most famous reporter in America, the one he'd speak to 18 times on the record, a man whose signal claim to fame was BRINGING DOWN A PRESIDENT, was powerless to stop him?? OK, sure. Alternatively... maybe, just maybe, Trump knows Woodward wields tremendous influence. Maybe that's why Trump was talking to Woodward...

I don't know why people are invested in Trump being this orange ball of pure evil. Why do we need to ascribe to malice what is fully explained by stupidity? His incompetence (and the incompetence of his inner circle) accounts for unnecessary mass-death. Inasmuch as Trump is fine with mass-death, it's all pretty much out in the open: Grammie-cide is the price we must pay for a rising stock market and a flourishing economy (and a second Trump term). We can't let the cure be worse than the disease: Open the economy back up on Easter.

Mass-death is an acceptable trade-off, but it's not Trump's object purpose. He would prefer it if supporters who attended his rallies magically won the lottery and shed weight (he'd ask for a cut of the winnings, and whisper about banging the hotties).
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Old 12th September 2020, 03:43 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Events are always obvious in retrospect, but I thought Clinton would win. Two bigger factors that you didn't mention were Russian interference, and Comey's announcement. But still. Hillary Clinton has always sucked. If the Democratic establishment had not been so enamored with her, then others would have run, and someone could have edged Bernie and beaten Trump. Sanders might not have ever become a phenom if not for his match-up against Clinton in the first place.
That Clinton 'always sucked' is a matter of opinion and not one that I, nor millions of other, agree with. That 'someone could have edged Bernie and beaten Trump' is speculation and something we'll never know the answer to. I doubt that Sanders, O'Malley, Chaffee or Webb could have beat Trump either. Remember that Clinton still won almost 3 million more votes than Trump. The same thing could still have occurred with one of the other Dem candidates.
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Old 12th September 2020, 03:45 PM   #339
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
This is all just a circle jerk.

We know Trump repeatedly lied to the American public about the danger we were in and then did next to nothing to protect us from it while being fully aware of the severity of that danger.

Whether or not you want to call that murder, he definitely has blood on his hands. And not in the sense that every president or political leader whose policy decisions cause collateral damage has blood on their hands. This is the blood of thousands of people who died needlessly and preventably while the guy in charge sat on his ass and rage-tweeted about ridiculous personal grievances.

There’s no slippery slope. There’s no equivalency. There’s no whataboutism.

What Trump has done to this country is uniquely and indisputably evil.
Thank you.
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Old 12th September 2020, 04:57 PM   #340
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
What's funny is that I pretty much agree with you. I think the things you are saying here are perfectly valid interpretations of Trump's inaction. There's no doubt he is responsible for a certain amount of deaths.



The only thing I would quibble with is your idea that it's somehow different from collateral damage. If you bomb a neighborhood to kill 20 terrorists knowing that you will probably end up killing 100 civilians as well, it's the same kind of thing, "the blood of thousands of people who died needlessly and preventably." There has to be some level of indifference to the inherent value of human life to order that strike.


ETA: Clarified some words

Again.

Collateral damage in war or otherwise against an enemy combatant is at least somewhat of an acceptable cost militarily.

The death of one's own citizens--where not a one is an enemy--for no national security reason is not an acceptable outcome.

The first situation is notionally to secure the safety of one's citizens. The second has citizens dying, which surely is not to ensure that they stay alive.These two situations are nowhere near enough to equate.
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Old 12th September 2020, 05:01 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Again.

Collateral damage in war or otherwise against an enemy combatant is at least somewhat of an acceptable cost militarily.

The death of one's own citizens--where not a one is an enemy--for no national security reason is not an acceptable outcome.

The first situation is notionally to secure the safety of one's citizens. The second has citizens dying, which surely is not to ensure that they stay alive.These two situations are nowhere near enough to equate.
Yeah take a step back, really think about who Trump and his supporters consider "the enemy" and that makes perfect sense.
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Old 12th September 2020, 06:48 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Again.

Collateral damage in war or otherwise against an enemy combatant is at least somewhat of an acceptable cost militarily.

The death of one's own citizens--where not a one is an enemy--for no national security reason is not an acceptable outcome.

The first situation is notionally to secure the safety of one's citizens. The second has citizens dying, which surely is not to ensure that they stay alive.These two situations are nowhere near enough to equate.

The basic concept in the OP is that a decision made by POTUS that causes the death of innocent people is literally murder. It shouldn’t matter if the person is a civilian caught in a drone strike or a citizen who catches a virus.
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Old 12th September 2020, 07:12 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
The basic concept in the OP is that a decision made by POTUS that causes the death of innocent people is literally murder. It shouldn’t matter if the person is a civilian caught in a drone strike or a citizen who catches a virus.
That’s actually not the basic concept of the OP, and the very important distinction between what the OP is talking about and what you’re talking about has been repeatedly explained.

At this point, your failure to grasp that seems willful.
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Old 12th September 2020, 07:15 PM   #344
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
That’s actually not the basic concept of the OP, and the very important distinction between what the OP is talking about and what you’re talking about has been repeatedly explained.

At this point, your failure to grasp that seems willful.

It may have been explained but the explanations sound like special pleading.

That is exactly the basic concept of the OP. How could it be otherwise.
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Old 12th September 2020, 07:47 PM   #345
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
That Clinton 'always sucked' is a matter of opinion and not one that I, nor millions of other, agree with. That 'someone could have edged Bernie and beaten Trump' is speculation and something we'll never know the answer to. I doubt that Sanders, O'Malley, Chaffee or Webb could have beat Trump either. Remember that Clinton still won almost 3 million more votes than Trump. The same thing could still have occurred with one of the other Dem candidates.
If Clinton had not been in the race, other candidates would have run. Biden, among others, would have been more likely to jump in. Democrats stupidly like her.
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Old 12th September 2020, 09:07 PM   #346
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Democrats still have the bizarre idea that a nominee should make for a great President instead of just a great Campaigner.
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Old 12th September 2020, 10:26 PM   #347
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
If Clinton had not been in the race, other candidates would have run. Biden, among others, would have been more likely to jump in. Democrats stupidly like her.
Other candidates did run, but Clinton was far and away the obvious choice whether you think she was a 'stupid' choice or not. Like I said, the majority of Americans did not agree with you and were it not for the reasons already mentioned, she'd be in the WH today.
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Old 12th September 2020, 10:27 PM   #348
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Democrats still have the bizarre idea that a nominee should make for a great President instead of just a great Campaigner.
Exactly.
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Old 12th September 2020, 11:57 PM   #349
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Your assumption is despicable. I know three who have died from it, but that doesnt change the fact it is a disease outbreak, you make it sound as if noone would have died if it had been handled sooner. The harsh reality is, less would have yes, but its a nasty sickness, and there would still been deaths while we were figuring out how to tackle it. Your expectation of a zero casualty result is unrealistic and frankly, stupid.
A few hours ago you were whining that I put words in your mouth, now look at this mess. Jfc: I never claimed anything about zero deaths.

I was commenting on your stubborn "But it's not murder, so your argument is nullified" hogwash.
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Old 13th September 2020, 12:35 AM   #350
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Nominating Clinton in 2016 was not an idiot move by the Democrats. Clinton was actually an excellent choice. It was those who fell for the decades of Clinton smear tactics by the Republicans, pissed of Bernie Bros, and those who were too complacent to bother to get off their butts to vote who were the idiots, and the damn electoral system that put Trump in the WH.
Surely nominating someone who could win if not for the fact that their name has been irretrievably tainted by decades of smears by their opponent is an idiot move? What's the point in nominating someone who can only win if reality were different? Don't you want to nominate someone who can win if reality as it is?
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Old 13th September 2020, 12:56 AM   #351
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The only coherent argument I can see for not nominating HRC was that her Presidency would have been kneecapped by a constant misinformation campaign by Putin, making it very hard for her to do anything.

Of course, that only works in hindsight and amounts to a capitulation to Russia.
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Old 13th September 2020, 01:14 AM   #352
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Surely nominating someone who could win if not for the fact that their name has been irretrievably tainted by decades of smears by their opponent is an idiot move? What's the point in nominating someone who can only win if reality were different? Don't you want to nominate someone who can win if reality as it is?
No, that was only ONE of the reasons she didn't win. Remember she still received almost 3 million more votes than Trump even with that taint, even with Comey's stupid announcement, even with the complacent laziness of voters, even with petty Bernie Bros, even with Russian interference,etc. But most of all, she didn't win because of the stupid electoral college. Remember that Trump did not win in the swing states by a landslide; he won by about 77,000 votes spread across 3 swing states.
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Old 13th September 2020, 01:15 AM   #353
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
The only coherent argument I can see for not nominating HRC was that her Presidency would have been kneecapped by a constant misinformation campaign by Putin, making it very hard for her to do anything.

Of course, that only works in hindsight and amounts to a capitulation to Russia.
Instead, we get a constant misinformation campaign by the Trump administration.
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Old 13th September 2020, 03:03 AM   #354
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
No, that was only ONE of the reasons she didn't win.
Sure. But it doesn't matter how many things there are that make her unelectable, it's still idiotic to insist on nominating a candidate who is unelectable.
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Old 13th September 2020, 07:44 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Other candidates did run, but Clinton was far and away the obvious choice whether you think she was a 'stupid' choice or not. Like I said, the majority of Americans did not agree with you and were it not for the reasons already mentioned, she'd be in the WH today.
Yes, other candidates did run, but still other candidates would have run. Rich wants to run for president of his school's chapter of Amnesty International, but quits filling out the paperwork upon learning his good friend Marie has already declared her candidacy.

And Clinton did not win anywhere close to a majority of Americans, let alone a majority voters (she won a plurality). Finally, and more importantly, she was running against Donald "grab 'em by the pussy" Trump, a historically awful candidate. A movie starring Ben Affleck as an Italian gangster falling for a gobble-gobble lesbian might not be as dumb as Battlefield Earth, but it can still be dumb.
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Old 13th September 2020, 08:26 AM   #356
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
It may have been explained but the explanations sound like special pleading.

That is exactly the basic concept of the OP. How could it be otherwise.
Because the OP makes specific mention of “depraved indifference”. The “collateral damage” argument you’ve been using is at best describing manslaughter.

Your “special pleading” claim is as empty and facile as your previous “slippery slope” claim.
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Old 13th September 2020, 09:04 AM   #357
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
The basic concept in the OP is that a decision made by POTUS that causes the death of innocent people is literally murder. It shouldn’t matter if the person is a civilian caught in a drone strike or a citizen who catches a virus.
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
That’s actually not the basic concept of the OP, and the very important distinction between what the OP is talking about and what you’re talking about has been repeatedly explained.

At this point, your failure to grasp that seems willful.
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
It may have been explained but the explanations sound like special pleading.

That is exactly the basic concept of the OP. How could it be otherwise.
Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Because the OP makes specific mention of “depraved indifference”. The “collateral damage” argument you’ve been using is at best describing manslaughter.

Your “special pleading” claim is as empty and facile as your previous “slippery slope” claim.


Yeah, this. You could make the case that collateral damage should also be considered murder, but the cases are not the same.

A normal President making a decision to bomb or not is given some benefit of the doubt, and is assumed to have weighed all the options, and made a sober and informed decision intended to advance the interests of the country as a whole. We assume that they've honestly concluded that, on whole, the costs of bombing are outweighed by the costs of not bombing. That may not always actually be true, but that's the starting point. Making a mistake in these calculations is regrettable, and may even require some kind of response from the electorate or the courts, but it's not "depraved indifference" to the human cost of bombing.

Trump didn't give a **** about the country. He knew what the costs would be, and ignored them all for a purely personal gain. That's not what presidents are elected for, and he deserves no benefit of the doubt. That's the "depraved indifference" part.
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Old 13th September 2020, 09:16 AM   #358
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Okay, so former federal prosecutor Glenn Kirchner says that Trump should be prosecuted for 2nd degree murder. How thought-through that opinion is, how good a prosecutor Kirchner was, and whether it's a recommendation he would have made as part of his job, I don't know.

But how's this? Leaked CDC emails reveal that political operatives have reviewed and sought changes to the covid reports published by scientists throughout the summer for healthcare professionals in order not to undermine Trump's optimistic messaging, as well as delaying or attempting to stop the publication of reports that didn't align with Trump's preferred narrative

Forget the irrelevant quibbling about the thread title, surely even Trump's most ardent fans on this board can admit that altering, delaying, or killing scientific reports to downplay the severity of the crisis to healthcare professionals for purely political purposes is beyond the pale, right?
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Old 13th September 2020, 10:56 AM   #359
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Okay, so former federal prosecutor Glenn Kirchner says that Trump should be prosecuted for 2nd degree murder. How thought-through that opinion is, how good a prosecutor Kirchner was, and whether it's a recommendation he would have made as part of his job, I don't know.

But how's this? Leaked CDC emails reveal that political operatives have reviewed and sought changes to the covid reports published by scientists throughout the summer for healthcare professionals in order not to undermine Trump's optimistic messaging, as well as delaying or attempting to stop the publication of reports that didn't align with Trump's preferred narrative

Forget the irrelevant quibbling about the thread title, surely even Trump's most ardent fans on this board can admit that altering, delaying, or killing scientific reports to downplay the severity of the crisis to healthcare professionals for purely political purposes is beyond the pale, right?
It is a political decision I disagree with, but I don't see how it gets elevated out of that. The executive power is vested in a president.
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Old 13th September 2020, 12:07 PM   #360
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It is a political decision I disagree with, but I don't see how it gets elevated out of that. The executive power is vested in a president.
Suppose the President suppressed a report that the factory of a donor is leaking dangerous levels of toxins into a water reservoir, resulting in deaths.

Would that be criminally prosecutable?
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