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Tags transgender incidents , transgender issues , transgender rights

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Old Yesterday, 05:01 PM   #1241
Sherkeu
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I feel you.

But I'll stick it out for a bit longer. Because the truth, however unfortunate, is that we can't make this case on our own. We need support from men. And there are several men in this thread who don't accept that sex is all made up, or that anyone who claims it can be a woman.

But I don't blame you for tapping out. I'm 100% certain that I'll need a break at some point too. I'll meet you in the ladies room!
Haha!

POC - Person of Cervix (according to CNN)

Or Poge - Person of gamete eggs

Or- Person born with the instructional DNA that should or could have, but may or may not have actually made a working uterus, cervix , and/or ovaries
(I will avoid typing that acronym)
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Old Yesterday, 05:01 PM   #1242
Joe Random
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
This is one of those topics that, in principle, I support. In practice, however, we end up with situations like Alabama requiring counseling and invasive transvaginal imaging before a woman is allowed to have an abortion. While I would very much like it to be a fully equal approach... I'm a lot more hesitant about allowing men to have a voice over women's bodies.
I get the sentiment, I sincerely do. The problem is that when we collectively get to the 'making sausage' bit of actually writing laws I'm not comfortable with letting too much fall into the arbitrary realm of who we allow to have a voice. That way opens up the doors to even more abuse than we have now.

Take for a specific example abortion. I've had ... regrettable reactions to anti-abortion protesters when I was younger. An issue which would these days impact me not in the least is still something I have strong opinions about, opinions which actually favor women and which I have no reluctance in sharing when I see them being opposed. And take a look at this info from Pew about abortion rights : https://www.pewforum.org/fact-sheet/...n-on-abortion/ According to that, about the same percentage of women oppose abortion across the board as men. So say we only let women vote on reproductive issues. Wouldn't change the results too terribly much, as the opinions seem far more based on religious or political affiliation.

If (extremely big 'if' here) a person genuinely felt that abortion was literally murder, then IMO it would be wrong to deny their voice when voting time came. And to flip it, roll time back to when slavery was legal. If any given person felt slavery was wrong, would it be appropriate to tell them 'well, you don't own slaves and never will, so your voice doesn't count?'. Not meaning to do the slavery version of a Godwin here.

Or a less weighty flipping, and not said to trivialize the actual issues at hand in the thread. Lets say men wanted to be able to jerk off in public for <insane reasons>. We won't put others in the 'splash zone', we just want to be able to vent in public so as to avoid all that damage some of us told our teen-aged girlfriends we'd suffer if they didn't let us finish. To say that only men could have a say in that would of course be insane.

Absolutely yes, the results of this sort of broader enfranchisement can and will result in bad (not using a mild term to downplay) results for people. And I do get the intellectual (if not the emotional) impact of being told what I can do with myself by someone who isn't like me. But, in my personal opinion only, it's the sort of sacrifice/compromise that simply has to happen to have a functioning society. Would that people were better than we are.
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Old Yesterday, 05:03 PM   #1243
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I feel you.

But I'll stick it out for a bit longer. Because the truth, however unfortunate, is that we can't make this case on our own. We need support from men. And there are several men in this thread who don't accept that sex is all made up, or that anyone who claims it can be a woman.

But I don't blame you for tapping out. I'm 100% certain that I'll need a break at some point too. I'll meet you in the ladies room!

I've basically had it with being "nice" and "kind". That's what got us into this. Men can't deal with gender nonconforming men, apparently can't keep them safe in men's spaces, so they want to lay the whole thing on women to deal with, with a slice of guilt on the side.

I've had it with acceding to the presence of any male over the age of about seven in women's single-sex spaces. If I genuinely can't tell that this person is male (yeah, like that happens) and they do nothing to arouse my suspicions, then what I don't know won't hurt me. But they better be extremely good. And preferably extremely shy. Because nobody born with a functional SRY gene and functioning androgen receptors has any right to be there.

The sweet, unassuming, post-op transsexuals were the thin end of the wedge. And look where that has got us. It's not possible to triage men into "real" transsexuals, fakes and wannabees, and normal men. Once you concede the camel's nose, you'll have the entire camel inside the tent. Allow the "friendly" more-or-less-sort-of-passes-in-a-bad-light-from-behind post-op transsexuals in and the rest of the trans crowd will be right behind them screaming about exclusionary policies and transphobia. If we can't challenge some of the people who look like men in dresses, we can't challenge any of the people who look like men in dresses. I'm not giving in on that one.
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Old Yesterday, 05:08 PM   #1244
SuburbanTurkey
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
This is one of those topics that, in principle, I support. In practice, however, we end up with situations like Alabama requiring counseling and invasive transvaginal imaging before a woman is allowed to have an abortion. While I would very much like it to be a fully equal approach... I'm a lot more hesitant about allowing men to have a voice over women's bodies.
Women support abortion restrictions in these states at similar rates to men, if not more so. Abortion restrictions aren't being forced onto women by Christian men, it's being forced on women by Christians generally, including local women.
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Old Yesterday, 05:14 PM   #1245
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Adding some probably ill-considered humor about "exploding vaginas" to hopefully take the edge out of some of the contentiousness .

TERF : why can't we say 'exploding women'?

trans-trender : stop erasing the validity of exploding LadyPenises, you bigot!

Colm Murphy : Why didn't I think of that ?!

Michael Bay : I thought of that ; why didn't I make a CGI-heavy film series out of it ?!

little old me : sounds like something from a poorly translated menu on engrish.com. Exploding vagina fermented rice (chicken or pork) -- 10.95
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Old Yesterday, 05:29 PM   #1246
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Even private organizations are constrained by law regarding the kinds of discrimination they can practice.
Not necessarily. I grew up down the road from Butler National Golf ClubWP in the Chicago metro, and to this day it remains exclusive to men.
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Old Yesterday, 06:08 PM   #1247
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Not necessarily. I grew up down the road from Butler National Golf ClubWP in the Chicago metro, and to this day it remains exclusive to men.
And I firmly believe that women in our society should have a say in whether that continues to be allowed.
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Old Yesterday, 06:10 PM   #1248
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Why, though? Whenever a private club (e.g. the YWCA) decides to change their eligibility requirements, only the people who are already eligible have a say.
So people who are not going to be affected by the change are making the decision for other people? Sounds like we're in agreement.

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Women who want to retain single-sex spaces would benefit, if it stopped the men in dresses from constantly demanding access. (Except it wouldn't.) It would be a lot less expensive than converting everything to single-occupancy unisex provisions. (Which by the way would mean the end of the urinal and men having to queue for the loo in absolute equality with women. Now there's a thought.)
No, I mean who would benefit from the new accomodations, not the old ones.

Quote:
Anyway, I thought nothing was too good for the straight white men who are also the most oppressed beings on the face of the planet?
What are you babbling about now?

You really have a chip on your shoulder about men, don't you?
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Old Yesterday, 06:34 PM   #1249
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
So people who are not going to be affected by the change are making the decision for other people?
Why wouldn't existing members be affected?
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Old Yesterday, 06:43 PM   #1250
d4m10n
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
And I firmly believe that women in our society should have a say in whether that continues to be allowed.
In the state legislature, of course.

Out of curiosity, would you advocate for a law which bars private clubs for men and women-only gyms?
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Old Yesterday, 06:45 PM   #1251
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Why wouldn't existing members be affected?
Some of them won't for sure. Do you think they'll vote for a motion that'll exclude them?
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Old Yesterday, 06:49 PM   #1252
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
In the state legislature, of course.

Out of curiosity, would you advocate for a law which bars private clubs for men and women-only gyms?
Tell you what: Make your case, and if I disagree, I'll make my rebuttal. But this seems tangential to my point, so please make your case at least interesting even if it isn't actually relevant.
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Old Yesterday, 07:13 PM   #1253
d4m10n
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Make your case, and if I disagree, I'll make my rebuttal.
The case for which particular proposition?
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Old Yesterday, 10:39 PM   #1254
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
In the state legislature, of course.
So you agree with theprestige.

Quote:
Out of curiosity, would you advocate for a law which bars private clubs for men and women-only gyms?
This question seems pretty off-topic, and unrelated to anything anyone has said.
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Old Yesterday, 11:44 PM   #1255
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
You don't explain yourself nearly as well as you seem to think you do. I've lost track of the number of times I've asked you to elaborate or expand on something you've posted, and only gotten some brush-off in response.
And I've lost track of the number of times I've explained myself only for you to then ascribe opinions or viewpoints to me that are completely at odds with what I've actually said. And then you act all hurt and surprised when I won't continue to jump through hoops for you.

Quote:
I've nothing to retract:
Exhibit W.
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Old Yesterday, 11:46 PM   #1256
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Maybe you don't, seeing as you never bothered to reply to it and pretty much just act as if there's no difference at all between people who self-identify AND make an effort to pass versus people who self-identify and do nothing else at all...
Exhibit X.
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Old Yesterday, 11:52 PM   #1257
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
IIRC, there was a lot more to it than that. Yes, there's general support for transwomen in women's spaces... but NOT ON THE BASIS OF SELF-IDENTIFICATION ALONE.
Exhibit Y.
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Old Yesterday, 11:54 PM   #1258
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Exhibit Z.
And what does this post show about the poster? It certainly doesn’t demonstrate bigotry, hatred or transphobia in my opinion.
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Old Yesterday, 11:55 PM   #1259
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Belz, there is information available, I'll try to find it for you. I know you well enough to know that you won't dismiss it out of hand. But it's very likely that Squeegee and Suburban Turkey will.
Exhibit Z.

You know, I think there's an easy solution to this, and it's the same solution I have for everybody with whom it's clear honest dialogue is simply impossible.
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Old Today, 12:01 AM   #1260
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I'm not seeing anything at all demonstrated by Exhibits W-Z. I'm seeing some statements by Emily's Cat. Are they contradicted by something you said earlier?

If so you should probably quote those things too.
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Old Today, 12:10 AM   #1261
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I'm not seeing anything at all demonstrated by Exhibits W-Z. I'm seeing some statements by Emily's Cat. Are they contradicted by something you said earlier?

If so you should probably quote those things too.
I've literally just said that I'm done jumping through hoops for her. That's the entire point - I'm sick and tired of her, based on either zero evidence or evidence that completely contradicts her conclusion, just arbitrarily deciding what my opinions are because that makes it easier for her to stick me in a little box as "that kind of person" and dismiss me out of hand.

I've tried and I've tried, but this is how she interacts with me (and, going by other conversations I've seen her have in other threads, other people too), and absolutely nothing I can do can make her re-evaluate the weird pretend version of me in her head that she insists on conversing with as opposed to the real me.

So I'm not going to bother any more. There's nothing to be gained from trying to have a reasonable, rational discussion with someone who insists that they know the inside of your own head better than you do, so I'm going to stop trying. And I don't need anybody else's approval or permission in order to do so.
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