ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 6th August 2020, 02:22 PM   #41
elgarak
Illuminator
 
elgarak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 4,470
From my German perspective, training of US cops is ridiculously short. I read that the LAPD Academy is just a six-month program, followed by one year rookie status, where they do full duty together with a senior training officer.

Here in Germany, it's three years of training (with a lot of theoretical course work). They do internships in precincts, but not full duty, during that time. After that, they still have some probationary time (although that's probably not a full year).
elgarak is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2020, 02:42 PM   #42
rockinkt
Graduate Poster
 
rockinkt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,747
Originally Posted by elgarak View Post
From my German perspective, training of US cops is ridiculously short. I read that the LAPD Academy is just a six-month program, followed by one year rookie status, where they do full duty together with a senior training officer.

Here in Germany, it's three years of training (with a lot of theoretical course work). They do internships in precincts, but not full duty, during that time. After that, they still have some probationary time (although that's probably not a full year).

Still doesn't stop the claims...

https://www.dw.com/en/police-violenc...lem/a-50462692
__________________
"Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." Steve Earle

"I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." Townes Van Zandt
rockinkt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2020, 03:37 PM   #43
CORed
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Central City, Colorado, USA
Posts: 9,572
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
The drug laws and enforcement in the USA are more draconian than most other democracies (I assume that is what you would really like to see your country’s law enforcement compared to, and not, say, China, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia.) American police are quite zealous about arresting users for small possession of amounts of drugs for their own personal use. Due to the harshness of possession penalties in the USA ie; jail, there is likely a greater tendency for drug users to resist arrest by fleeing, fighting, etc. The result is quick escalation and a much greater chance of injury to one or more parties.

In Canada cannabis has been legal for nearly two years. There are no properly researched published reports of any noticeable changes in Canadian society due to legalization. Here simple hard drug possession and use is treated as a health issue rather than a crime. The users have no reason to fear interactions with the police so interactions between users and police rarely escalate beyond discussion.

The “drug abuse problem” and the consequences of escalation during police/user confrontations in the USA is much more due to your laws and enforcement methods than to any danger from the users themselves, or to other citizens from the users.

And yes, there is always a concern of petty crime by the drug users to get money to support their habits. Trying to use this as a reason to come down heavy on possession would be grasping at straws.
I think you have hit the nail on the head here. Drug prohibition is a disaster in America, and it's a very large part of what fuels the ongoing hostility between police and the African American community. And I do think it's not entirely the fault of the police. There is a "vicious circle" going on, a chasm of mutual mistrust that makes interactions between cops and minority citizens often much more violent on both sides than they should be. Legalization of cannabis seems to be happening at somewhere between a glaciers and a snails pace, piecemeal one state at a time (but hey that's the way we do things in 'Merica, for a lot of historical reasons that are largely irrelevant now) but hard drug usage needs to be treated as a medical problem rather than a criminal one here.
CORed is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2020, 04:15 PM   #44
rockinkt
Graduate Poster
 
rockinkt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,747
Originally Posted by CORed View Post
I think you have hit the nail on the head here. Drug prohibition is a disaster in America, and it's a very large part of what fuels the ongoing hostility between police and the African American community. And I do think it's not entirely the fault of the police. There is a "vicious circle" going on, a chasm of mutual mistrust that makes interactions between cops and minority citizens often much more violent on both sides than they should be. Legalization of cannabis seems to be happening at somewhere between a glaciers and a snails pace, piecemeal one state at a time (but hey that's the way we do things in 'Merica, for a lot of historical reasons that are largely irrelevant now) but hard drug usage needs to be treated as a medical problem rather than a criminal one here.
Back in one of Criminology classes I remember a question put to us by a very well respected professor who was playing devil's' advocate in an attempt to make our Monday morning 8:30 AM fogged brains start working.
I kept the quizz and I quote the question asked by Dr. Paul Brantingham in its entirety.

In many inner cities - a hierarchical, extractive drug economy fills the void left by deindustrialization, resulting in accumulation of wealth at the expense of addicted customers and recreational users. That money generated by the illegal drug trade is a big part of the economy of the inner cities. If you legalize drugs and remove that economy - what are you going to replace it with?
__________________
"Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." Steve Earle

"I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." Townes Van Zandt
rockinkt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2020, 04:58 PM   #45
Steve
Philosopher
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Sydney Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,401
Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Back in one of Criminology classes I remember a question put to us by a very well respected professor who was playing devil's' advocate in an attempt to make our Monday morning 8:30 AM fogged brains start working.
I kept the quizz and I quote the question asked by Dr. Paul Brantingham in its entirety.

In many inner cities - a hierarchical, extractive drug economy fills the void left by deindustrialization, resulting in accumulation of wealth at the expense of addicted customers and recreational users. That money generated by the illegal drug trade is a big part of the economy of the inner cities. If you legalize drugs and remove that economy - what are you going to replace it with?
Your professor is either somewhat naive, or this was before the results of decriminalization and legalization were known. Canada is in the process of replacing the illegal cannabis economy and has noticeably reduced the stigma and consequences of hard drugs possession and use. There is still an underground drug market. It has not been replaced with anything but it is smaller. The noticeable difference is in the consequences for those who have to deal with law enforcement, and the in the consequences for law enforcement personnel compared to our neighbours to the south.

This raises so many questions. May I ask what your response was to the question? Was there a perceived need among your fellow students to replace it with anything? Do you think that maintaining an underground/black market economy is a valid reason to keep drugs illegal? Did your prof think it was/is? Or was it intended to be entirely rhetorical?
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2020, 05:32 PM   #46
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 7,798
Originally Posted by elgarak View Post
From my German perspective, training of US cops is ridiculously short. I read that the LAPD Academy is just a six-month program, followed by one year rookie status, where they do full duty together with a senior training officer.

Here in Germany, it's three years of training (with a lot of theoretical course work). They do internships in precincts, but not full duty, during that time. After that, they still have some probationary time (although that's probably not a full year).
That's why I keep saying the same.

The more I think of it, the more I suspect Michael Wood Jr. was right - these guys react to much of any encounter with a black guy like they're terrified, which is why pretty much anything they don't suspect has that screaming commands and firing their guns wildly. Tamir Rice was "expected" to run when they drove up - when he just sat there, they lost control driving on the grass. But it's Rice's fault.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th August 2020, 10:31 PM   #47
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 67,929
You know something else that's wrong with American cops?

Dave Grossman. Take that guy out of the picture and things might improve.
__________________
Self-described nerd.

My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something.
- Randall Munroe
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2020, 07:43 AM   #48
Suddenly
No Punting
 
Suddenly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Not In Follansbee
Posts: 3,774
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
That's why I keep saying the same.

The more I think of it, the more I suspect Michael Wood Jr. was right - these guys react to much of any encounter with a black guy like they're terrified, which is why pretty much anything they don't suspect has that screaming commands and firing their guns wildly. Tamir Rice was "expected" to run when they drove up - when he just sat there, they lost control driving on the grass. But it's Rice's fault.
Maybe it is because I have significant experience with this issue, but I see it as beyond obvious.

Police academy training, at least here, has become far more militaristic/survivalist. When I have to make small talk with cops I'd often get them talking about the academy, and experiences vary a lot with age.

They now spend a lot of time going over films of cops being shot, for one thing. Which is where a lot of this comes from.
Suddenly is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2020, 12:49 PM   #49
lomiller
Penultimate Amazing
 
lomiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 10,800
Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Back in one of Criminology classes I remember a question put to us by a very well respected professor who was playing devil's' advocate in an attempt to make our Monday morning 8:30 AM fogged brains start working.
I kept the quizz and I quote the question asked by Dr. Paul Brantingham in its entirety.

In many inner cities - a hierarchical, extractive drug economy fills the void left by deindustrialization, resulting in accumulation of wealth at the expense of addicted customers and recreational users. That money generated by the illegal drug trade is a big part of the economy of the inner cities. If you legalize drugs and remove that economy - what are you going to replace it with?
The last thing we need is another thread filled with hand wringing about jobs “disappearing”. As long as people want more goods/services there will always be jobs for people providing those goods and services. Should this ever NOT be the case we would be living in a world where robots provide everyone with everything they could ever want free of charge and without anyone ever having to lift a finger themselves. Truly, what a hell hole that would be
__________________
"Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"
lomiller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2020, 01:10 PM   #50
lomiller
Penultimate Amazing
 
lomiller's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 10,800
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
You know something else that's wrong with American cops?

Dave Grossman. Take that guy out of the picture and things might improve.
With all the talk of how militarized US policing is, it’s easy to forget that even as a military strategy these tactics fail. A major reason why the US occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan failed was because US troops sent there were trained to view the citizenry as a potential threat against which they must defend themselves at all costs. When you point a loaded rifle at someone, it really doesn’t matter how many times you say “we’re here to help”, they will not consider you a friend. If the locals hate you, you are never going to create peace, order and stability.
__________________
"Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"
lomiller is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2020, 07:29 PM   #51
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 19,298
Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Back in one of Criminology classes I remember a question put to us by a very well respected professor who was playing devil's' advocate in an attempt to make our Monday morning 8:30 AM fogged brains start working.
I kept the quizz and I quote the question asked by Dr. Paul Brantingham in its entirety.

In many inner cities - a hierarchical, extractive drug economy fills the void left by deindustrialization, resulting in accumulation of wealth at the expense of addicted customers and recreational users. That money generated by the illegal drug trade is a big part of the economy of the inner cities. If you legalize drugs and remove that economy - what are you going to replace it with?
It isn't at the expense of addicted customers. Getting high is great. People like it. The high from drugs is a benefit.

People get benefits and costs wrong all the time. Getting high is a benefit. Having a job is a cost
BobTheCoward is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2020, 10:06 PM   #52
Roger Ramjets
Illuminator
 
Roger Ramjets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 4,805
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
It isn't at the expense of addicted customers. Getting high is great. People like it. The high from drugs is a benefit.
Then they come down from the high and feel awful. So they have to take more drugs - and more, and more. Now they have to take drugs just to not feel awful. That's what addiction is - and it's not a benefit to the 'customer'.

Quote:
People get benefits and costs wrong all the time. Getting high is a benefit. Having a job is a cost
BobTheCoward gets things wrong all the time. Having to pay for your addiction is a cost. Having a job benefits your bank balance. But when you are an addict you probably can't hold down a job, so you must turn to crime to finance your addiction.

Originally Posted by rockinkt
In many inner cities - a hierarchical, extractive drug economy fills the void left by deindustrialization, resulting in accumulation of wealth at the expense of addicted customers and recreational users. That money generated by the illegal drug trade is a big part of the economy of the inner cities. If you legalize drugs and remove that economy - what are you going to replace it with?
Broken window fallacy. Drug trading is a drag on the economy. It's why poor neighborhoods get poorer. But legalizing drugs won't make much difference. It could even increase criminal activity, because legal drugs might be a bit cheaper and easier to get - making more addicts who can't hold down a job and have to turn to crime.

We only have to look at one legal drug - alcohol - to see what it could do to the economy.
Quote:
The cost of excessive alcohol use in the United States reached $249 billion in 2010, or about $2.05 per drink. Most (77%) of these costs were due to binge drinking...

most of the costs resulted from losses in workplace productivity (72% of the total cost), health care expenses for treating problems caused by excessive drinking (11% of total), law enforcement and other criminal justice expenses (10%), and losses from motor vehicle crashes related to excessive alcohol use (5%).
__________________
We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.
Roger Ramjets is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2020, 10:30 PM   #53
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,688
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
You know something else that's wrong with American cops?



Dave Grossman. Take that guy out of the picture and things might improve.
Far out.

Never heard of this bloke but just reading about him he sounds Ike a complete knobend, on an ego driven power trip.
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2020, 10:58 PM   #54
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 46,561
Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
But legalizing drugs won't make much difference. It could even increase criminal activity, because legal drugs might be a bit cheaper and easier to get - making more addicts who can't hold down a job and have to turn to crime.
That’s part of it. Another part is that legalizing drugs won’t make most drug dealers go straight. They will often turn to other forms of crime in order to make a living, because most of them are involved in the drug trade to begin with because they either cannot or do not want to work in the legal labor market. Legalization won’t change that. I can’t say what the net effect of legalization will be, but there are definitely significant costs to doing so.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2020, 11:13 PM   #55
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 12,152
there is a mountain of empirical evidence that de-criminalizing drugs, coupled with easily and cheaply available rehabilitating services, massively decrease criminality, which should be obvious to everyone.

If drugs are cheap and easy to get, you don't have to strain your budget to get them, and you don't have to isolate from the community to use them. And, of course, you don't kill yourself with laced/contaminated/too concentrated drugs.

The only victim of de-criminalizing drugs is the prison-industrial-complex.
__________________
ETTD
Everything Trump Touches Dies
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2020, 12:00 AM   #56
Roger Ramjets
Illuminator
 
Roger Ramjets's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 4,805
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
there is a mountain of empirical evidence that de-criminalizing drugs, coupled with easily and cheaply available rehabilitating services, massively decrease criminality, which should be obvious to everyone.
And not just drugs. Make theft, rape, and murder legal - and watch those crime stats drop!
__________________
We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good.
Roger Ramjets is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2020, 12:39 AM   #57
llwyd
Muse
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 674
Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
And not just drugs. Make theft, rape, and murder legal - and watch those crime stats drop!
Well, drug prohibition is little different from those things - and it has been a gigantic boon to organized crime (with all the attendant things that you mention here) plus of course to police forces too, and also prisons which is a huge industry in the USA.
llwyd is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2020, 01:59 AM   #58
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of)
Posts: 25,491
Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
And not just drugs. Make theft, rape, and murder legal - and watch those crime stats drop!

Exactly. Because recreational drug use is just like theft, rape, and murder. And they should all be treated the same.

Oh ... wait.
__________________
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."

"Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2020, 04:54 AM   #59
rockinkt
Graduate Poster
 
rockinkt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,747
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Your professor is either somewhat naive, or this was before the results of decriminalization and legalization were known. Canada is in the process of replacing the illegal cannabis economy and has noticeably reduced the stigma and consequences of hard drugs possession and use. There is still an underground drug market. It has not been replaced with anything but it is smaller. The noticeable difference is in the consequences for those who have to deal with law enforcement, and the in the consequences for law enforcement personnel compared to our neighbours to the south.

This raises so many questions. May I ask what your response was to the question? Was there a perceived need among your fellow students to replace it with anything? Do you think that maintaining an underground/black market economy is a valid reason to keep drugs illegal? Did your prof think it was/is? Or was it intended to be entirely rhetorical?
Seriously? The underground drug market in Canada is smaller? Where are you getting your numbers? The fact that the taxation of weed is so high the underground economy in that particular commodity has not really changed that much.
https://qz.com/1605614/canadas-black...-legalization/
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-b...s-nb-1.5323130

Any shortfall has been replaced with the relatively recent introduction of meth and those sales and users are increasing. Drug dealers give out meth to increase customers. Meth is very addictive.
https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/long...diction-canada

Besides - you are comparing the entirety of a Canada with the specific drug problems and violence of many inner core US cities. That is so wrong on so many levels I don't have the time or space to deal with such an incredibly huge lack of understanding and knowledge of the situation.

As an example of inner city drug use - because that is what Dr. Brantingham was talking about - have you ever spent time in Canada's own Downtown Eastside (DTES) of Vancouver? $350 million a year goes into drug use amelioration in that drug trade community alone and that area has been basically off limits to the Vancouver police for years. The economy is drug sales and welfare and wannabee saviours getting paid to run programs that have shown no effectiveness in decades.
Even the hookers (except the most desperate ones) have moved out as very few people with money will venture into that area.
The drug use in DTES has not been falling, it's been rising. The numbers of deaths from opioid addiction has been horrendous for a couple of years due to the introduction of Fentanyl and carFentanil and yet the numbers are still rising!

So far - the illegal drug trade has not disappeared or decreased in Canada and the human suffering because of it has increased so using Canada as an example of good drug policy is ridiculous.

No-one is "claiming that maintaining an underground/black market economy is a valid reason to keep drugs illegal" as you put it. Dr. Brantingham was calling for the legalization of street drugs back in the 1970s (when this took place) and I am in full agreement with him.
However, the question is still valid: IF you remove the drug trade - what are you going to replace the money it generates with? I suggested the money that is used on enforcement could be used to subsidize the creation of jobs. There will also be money for addiction centres - hopefully. However, as we see - throwing money at addiction and a hands off attitude by the police (basically decriminalizing both soft and hard drugs) has not stopped addiction or the corresponding black market sales (dealers will always find something to deal) in the DTES.

The experiment continues. No-one has the answers - yet.
__________________
"Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." Steve Earle

"I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." Townes Van Zandt

Last edited by rockinkt; 8th August 2020 at 04:56 AM.
rockinkt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2020, 05:34 AM   #60
Steve
Philosopher
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Sydney Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,401
Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Seriously? The underground drug market in Canada is smaller? Where are you getting your numbers? The fact that the taxation of weed is so high the underground economy in that particular commodity has not really changed that much.
https://qz.com/1605614/canadas-black...-legalization/
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-b...s-nb-1.5323130

Any shortfall has been replaced with the relatively recent introduction of meth and those sales and users are increasing. Drug dealers give out meth to increase customers. Meth is very addictive.
https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/long...diction-canada

Besides - you are comparing the entirety of a Canada with the specific drug problems and violence of many inner core US cities. That is so wrong on so many levels I don't have the time or space to deal with such an incredibly huge lack of understanding and knowledge of the situation.

As an example of inner city drug use - because that is what Dr. Brantingham was talking about - have you ever spent time in Canada's own Downtown Eastside (DTES) of Vancouver? $350 million a year goes into drug use amelioration in that drug trade community alone and that area has been basically off limits to the Vancouver police for years. The economy is drug sales and welfare and wannabee saviours getting paid to run programs that have shown no effectiveness in decades.
Even the hookers (except the most desperate ones) have moved out as very few people with money will venture into that area.
The drug use in DTES has not been falling, it's been rising. The numbers of deaths from opioid addiction has been horrendous for a couple of years due to the introduction of Fentanyl and carFentanil and yet the numbers are still rising!

So far - the illegal drug trade has not disappeared or decreased in Canada and the human suffering because of it has increased so using Canada as an example of good drug policy is ridiculous.

No-one is "claiming that maintaining an underground/black market economy is a valid reason to keep drugs illegal" as you put it. Dr. Brantingham was calling for the legalization of street drugs back in the 1970s (when this took place) and I am in full agreement with him.
However, the question is still valid: IF you remove the drug trade - what are you going to replace the money it generates with? I suggested the money that is used on enforcement could be used to subsidize the creation of jobs. There will also be money for addiction centres - hopefully. However, as we see - throwing money at addiction and a hands off attitude by the police (basically decriminalizing both soft and hard drugs) has not stopped addiction or the corresponding black market sales (dealers will always find something to deal) in the DTES.

The experiment continues. No-one has the answers - yet.
So your profs question was rhetorical. Thank you.

And we seem to be in agreement. Maintaining an underground economy is no reason to keep any drugs illegal.

The Canadian approach to illegal drugs results in enforcement that is much less dangerous for all parties than the American approach.
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2020, 06:02 AM   #61
Bikewer
Penultimate Amazing
 
Bikewer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: St. Louis, Mo.
Posts: 12,739
I remember a study that was brought up on one of the NPR shows I listen to. Essentially, during the worst of the “rust belt” economy collapse in the greater Detroit area, the drug trade was largely responsible for keeping things running in the poorer communities.
Billions of dollars moved through the area, dollars which tended to be spent keeping local businesses running.
Folks selling drugs need groceries, pizzas, haircuts, and clothing to wear....

It’s been my opinion for years now that the war on drugs has been an unmitigated disaster; not only utterly ineffective by the government’s own assessment (the GAO did two studies) but creating a permanent underclass of citizens who have no hope of ever becoming “productive members of society”.
And our legislator’s response? Get tougher on crime. Here in Missouri they want to eliminate probation and parole and try kids as young as 12 as adults.
Bikewer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2020, 06:36 AM   #62
Hlafordlaes
Disorder of Kilopi
 
Hlafordlaes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: State of Flux
Posts: 12,993
The police in France and Spain are no fun once they take you in, either. Rarely, but they do get away with murder. Slap-happy since Franco's days, though, as I can attest. But you never see arrests go down as violently as you do in the US, nor are casual encounters considered potentially dangerous, although I wonder about African immigrants (most are working in dire conditions in rural areas, aka, slave labor).

My personal view is that Americans are culturally predisposed to violence, and "take 'em out behind the shed" is considered a viable option to life's many social challenges. Take a gander at, say, a 2K or 4K menu screen of Amazon Prime video, and you can spend your time leisurely counting the guns and explosions, cop shows, and glorified mercenary work. It is cool to kill ("make my day"), and a good citizen is one who has "served" in the Armed Forces (or will otherwise be suspect), and as Trey Gowdy once exhibited during a Congressional hearing, time in the military gives you the right to silence others and command moral authority.

But beyond all that, there is the knowledge among the police that suspects and bystanders may all be armed and dangerous, elevating encounters to the level of violence you might expect the police need or would use in, say, Afghanistan. Friend vs foe is determined by skin color, accent, type of vehicle, and any other indications white supremacists are looking for that someone is of the tribe. How many good ole boys get gunned down, per perp? Or do, say, good ole double murder suspects get water when detained, and no knee to the neck?

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Violent culture. Presence of firearms. Racism. Class grievances. Toss that in any model and you get USA-style statistics.
__________________
Driftwood on an empty shore of the sea of meaninglessness. Irrelevant, weightless, inconsequential moment of existential hubris on the fast track to oblivion.
His real name is Count Douchenozzle von Stenchfahrter und Lichtendicks. - shemp
Hlafordlaes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2020, 06:44 AM   #63
Distracted1
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 4,607
Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
I remember a study that was brought up on one of the NPR shows I listen to. Essentially, during the worst of the “rust belt” economy collapse in the greater Detroit area, the drug trade was largely responsible for keeping things running in the poorer communities.
Billions of dollars moved through the area, dollars which tended to be spent keeping local businesses running.
Folks selling drugs need groceries, pizzas, haircuts, and clothing to wear....

It’s been my opinion for years now that the war on drugs has been an unmitigated disaster; not only utterly ineffective by the government’s own assessment (the GAO did two studies) but creating a permanent underclass of citizens who have no hope of ever becoming “productive members of society”.
And our legislator’s response? Get tougher on crime. Here in Missouri they want to eliminate probation and parole and try kids as young as 12 as adults.
I grew up in Detroit during that period.
Fun adjuncts to the drug houses were the impromptu thrift stores that the dealers branched out into.
If one wished to purchase a VCR, car stereo, leather jacket, pair of expensive sneakers, television set, bicycle, or car battery one need only visit the drug-house annex to score such merchandise at a discount.
The junkies and crackheads had taken to paying the dealers in merchandise- and the entrepreneurial spirit of the dealers combined with the high numbers of vacant properties led to the creation of these outlets.

Good times...
I can't shake the suspicion that I am going to have a chance to relive them at the other end of my life.
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.

Last edited by Distracted1; 8th August 2020 at 06:54 AM.
Distracted1 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2020, 02:35 PM   #64
CaptainHowdy
Graduate Poster
 
CaptainHowdy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,489
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
I strongly agree with that. I think it is a bit backwards though, much easier to integrate high-income people into low-income neighborhoods (much less expensive all the way around)
What you are suggesting is called “gentrification” and that is racist.
CaptainHowdy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2020, 02:40 PM   #65
Steve
Philosopher
 
Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Sydney Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,401
Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
What you are suggesting is called “gentrification” and that is racist.
Assuming that’ a significant number of the residents of the low income neighbourhood are of a recognizable minority.
__________________
Caption from and old New Yorker cartoon - Why am I shouting? Because I'm wrong!"
Steve is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2020, 06:55 PM   #66
Distracted1
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 4,607
Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
What you are suggesting is called “gentrification” and that is racist.
It is de-segregation. Practical, affordable, de-segregation.
__________________
The man with one watch knows what time it is, the man with two watches is never sure.
Distracted1 is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 10th August 2020, 10:32 AM   #67
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 49,251
Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
And not just drugs. Make theft, rape, and murder legal - and watch those crime stats drop!
Yea look at what happened after Lawrence v. Texas. Got to keep homosexual activity criminalized or else!
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Yesterday, 10:34 PM   #68
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 67,929
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Far out.

Never heard of this bloke but just reading about him he sounds Ike a complete knobend, on an ego driven power trip.
Not enough people are talking about him.
__________________
Self-described nerd.

My mom told me she tries never to make fun of people for not knowing something.
- Randall Munroe
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old Today, 02:50 AM   #69
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 21,981
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I said nothing about deserve. Someone who plays on train tracks doesn’t deserve to die for it. But it’s a rather foreseeable and avoidable consequence.
Does sleeping in one's house whilst black count as "playing on train tracks"?
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:23 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.