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Old 15th September 2018, 12:53 PM   #41
Thor 2
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Lot's of ex-Catholics posting here The Big Dog - ex-altar boys even. Bit of a worry for you I should think? Why do you suppose all these who are raised in your "One True Church" are voting with their feet?
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Old 15th September 2018, 12:53 PM   #42
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All claims/beliefs are not equal . . .

Normal/rational claims/beliefs – Claims/beliefs that could possibly be true according to all current knowledge of what is possible.
Example - I believe your claim that you have a black and white border collie dog in your garage.

Paranormal/irrational claims/beliefs - Claims/beliefs that could not possibly be true according to all current knowledge of what is possible.
Example (1) - I believe your claim that you have a large, rainbow coloured , winged, flying, two-headed, fire-breathing dragon in your garage.
Example (2) - I believe your claim that there’s an invisible, magical sky-daddy in your garage (as well the entire Universe), and it created everything.

Believing that all claims/beliefs are equal is not using logic.
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Old 15th September 2018, 12:59 PM   #43
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Declaring ones own beliefs to be normal and rational is not using logic.

It is argument by bare assertion.

Say, we are using logic.
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Old 15th September 2018, 01:03 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
All claims/beliefs are not equal . . .

Normal/rational claims/beliefs – Claims/beliefs that could possibly be true according to all current knowledge of what is possible.
Example - I believe your claim that you have a black and white border collie dog in your garage.

Paranormal/irrational claims/beliefs - Claims/beliefs that could not possibly be true according to all current knowledge of what is possible.
Example (1) - I believe your claim that you have a large, rainbow coloured , winged, flying, two-headed, fire-breathing dragon in your garage.
Example (2) - I believe your claim that there’s an invisible, magical sky-daddy in your garage (as well the entire Universe), and it created everything.

Believing that all claims/beliefs are equal is not using logic.
Anyone actually using logic would know these are neither "argument by bare assertion" nor "declarations of my own beliefs".
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Old 15th September 2018, 01:15 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Lot's of ex-Catholics posting here The Big Dog - ex-altar boys even. Bit of a worry for you I should think? Why do you suppose all these who are raised in your "One True Church" are voting with their feet?
You can add me to that list. Long since 'lapsed', but do know that even someone like my mother who attends mass every Sunday hardly adheres to every tenet of the faith these days.


ETA: Wait a sec TBD is a Catholic and a Trump supporter? That's one hell of a disconnect...
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Old 15th September 2018, 02:16 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
United Church of Canada

Was Grandad Irish or anything like that?
Yes ... The was some discussion if his blood was GREEN or just pure Irish Whiskey!
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Old 16th September 2018, 04:06 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Lot's of ex-Catholics posting here The Big Dog - ex-altar boys even. Bit of a worry for you I should think? Why do you suppose all these who are raised in your "One True Church" are voting with their feet?
My twin brother and his wife switched to being Episcipalian. The churches in Portland, Oregon had one two many child sex abuse scandals for their comfort and left.
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Old 16th September 2018, 05:46 PM   #48
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Until I was 11, I went to a small Lutheran private school, which was attached to an unusually large Lutheran church, so I was in that building 6 days per week. The school's curriculum included, along with the usual stuff you'd get in any secular school, at least two different regularly-scheduled religious periods named "Religion" and "Devotion". I never could tell what the difference was supposed to be because the content was the same to me, but I think one was a full class length and one was a fraction, or one was daily and one was just 2-3 times per week, or both. But just like church, it was always the same stuff being said anyway, regardless of how they fit in the schedule.

Most of what we were taught is what most people would expect, except that the principle that there couldn't be any supernatural entities other than God & angels was actually followed, meaning nobody ever lied to me about Santa Claus; he was treated as nothing but fiction all along (which makes the arguments I keep seeing now about the necessity of lying to kids about Santa Claus laughable).

But there's no deconversion story here, because the religious stuff just never stuck with me in the first place. All that craziness just never made a bit of sense to me. I was familiar with other fictional settings & character sets & stories, often involving supernatural elements or equally unreal high-tech stuff, and those were always treated as fiction, so it seemed pretty simple & straightforward that the religious stuff, being fundamentally similar, was fictional just like the rest. (I also retained what we were taught better than most students, getting good games & winning trivia games & such, which seemed fairly odd when combined with the idea of some of them actually believing this stuff which they didn't seem to me to have been paying much attention to.)

I didn't really notice at first, but part of what made religion easy for me not to take seriously must have been the fact that it was never really brought up at home. My parents appear to have been practically religionless, and I'm mostly sure my father was entirely atheist. But there were two reasons to send us kids to that church & school for as long as they did: for a real education in reading & writing at a time when the local public school district was fooling around with some trendy non-phonetic nonsense, and to keep the peace with my father's parents, who were religious to a hostile extent. But the older I got, the less interaction there was with them, and the school district's "see-&-say" was dropped and we could all already read anyway, so my parents eventually quit paying that place.
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Old 16th September 2018, 11:17 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Declaring ones own beliefs to be normal and rational is not using logic.

It is argument by bare assertion.......
You go fundamentally wrong when you determine that non-religious people have beliefs. So, we could all stop at that point in your post and declare it nonsense. However, let's carry on. An assessment of what is normal in the society in which you are living is rational and logical.I have no way of knowing about your community as I don't know where you live. Therefore I couldn't comment on what is normal in your case. However, I can comment with authority on what is normal in my community, as can ynot about his/her community. The one person who doesn't get this right to comment on our own communities is you. You are no position to issue gormless roll-eye emoticons whilst attempting to stand on some sort of intellectual high-ground.

As to "rational", which was also covered by your emoticon and the subsequent apologetics, this isn't a word you get to define. It seems to be a word you don't even understand. The fundamental flaw in the rationality of religious people is that you start from an irrational position. However much rationality you apply thereafter, accepting the existence of whichever particular god you follow is an evidence-free exercise. That is fundamentally irrational. You can apply layer after layer of the most beautifully thought through logic and rationality thereafter, as of course theologians and philosophers have done for millennia, but no amount of rationality can counterbalance the fundamentally flawed position from which you start.
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Old 17th September 2018, 12:15 AM   #50
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Hands up everyone who thinks their beliefs are irrational. It is irrational for someone brainwashed in a belief system from birth to think it irrational?


Similarly if you are brought up in an area where most people share your beliefs you will considered normal. Normality varies. An atheist in Iran would be abnormal. Shinoism is normal in Japan.

Normality is subjective and so is rationality. TBD is correct in criticising those giving them objective definitions, particularly with religion. With around 84% of the world holding a religious belief it is us atheists that are abnormal.
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Old 17th September 2018, 12:30 AM   #51
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My mother was Church of Christ and her mother was hardcore so Mom decided not to ram it down her kids' throats. Mom is still a vaguely Christian person. She (and now I) live on a Congregationalist campus and they are pretty darn liberal. Their full name is United Church of Christ, but it's nothing like the plain Church of Christ. Dad didn't seem to have any religion. I'm not sure I ever believed in Santa Claus.

The Church of Christ could be pretty unforgiving. When my brother who went to a private Episcopal school was confirmed Episcopalian, we had to keep it a secret from Grandma. She also disowned my aunt for a time because the aunt had married a divorced man. Each Church of Christ is different, but they aren't particularly "evangelical." They thought Sunday school was a sin; kids were supposed to get the full message. The had long services on hard chairs. They also had church services, sometimes in homes, on Sunday nights and Wednesdays. They didn't believe in celebrating Christmas (though people did) and did not believe in instrumental music. You didn't really get "saved," it was pretty rules-based. They did not practice infant baptism and by the time I was old enough to be baptized I declined.

I had several reasons but a major one is that I didn't believe God would create billions of people and doom them to hell if they'd never heard of Jesus Christ. Also, later the mechanics of Christianity confused me.

I still have an interest in religion. I can be moved by a Jewish funeral service but the Christian ones make me itch because I know I don't buy in to the central premise. I feel like I'm there under false pretenses, or something. I don't feel that way in a mosque or synagogue; but then, I don't really know what's being said in a mosque.
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Old 17th September 2018, 04:42 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Declaring ones own beliefs to be normal and rational is not using logic.

It is argument by bare assertion.

Say, we are using logic.
What beliefs?
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Old 17th September 2018, 07:42 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
You go fundamentally wrong when you determine that non-religious people have beliefs.
Say, I believe that suggesting that the only types of beliefs are religious beliefs might indeed be the silliest thing I have seen in a heck of a long while.
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Old 17th September 2018, 12:36 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
Hands up everyone who thinks their beliefs are irrational. It is irrational for someone brainwashed in a belief system from birth to think it irrational?


Similarly if you are brought up in an area where most people share your beliefs you will considered normal. Normality varies. An atheist in Iran would be abnormal. Shinoism is normal in Japan.

Normality is subjective and so is rationality. TBD is correct in criticising those giving them objective definitions, particularly with religion. With around 84% of the world holding a religious belief it is us atheists that are abnormal.
Anyone reading my post in context would know that I was using “normal” as an antonym of “paranormal”, not “abnormal”.

Rationality is objective, perception of rationality is subjective.
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Old 17th September 2018, 01:05 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson View Post
How were you raised?

Conservative Jewish -

went to temple (on most holidays), kept kosher (inside the house), had Shabbat dinner, went to hebrew school, Jewish youth group, summer in Israel, each of my parents were president of the synagogue at different points, the whole thing ...

But here's the kicker - My family absolutely lacked any spirituality whatsoever. My mother, I think, at least believed god existed and took a general interest in our lives. Last night, as we approach Yom Kippur, I asked my father, "Gun to your head, is there a god?" and he answered, "I try not to think about these things."

So, even though we said all the words and did all the things, they were just meaningless. The community was important, so the rituals had some use. They bound people together. And, in fact, our closest friends were all members of our temple.

Why do it? Two of my grandparents were born in Poland and the other two were both the youngest of several siblings, each the only one born in the US. Duty to family is a pretty strong motivator.
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Old 17th September 2018, 01:45 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Catholicism, heterosexuality, and that cough medicine works by "coating your throat" so you shouldn't drink any fluids after taking cough medicine or it would be rendered worthless. Rejected the first two things by age 14, but it took embarrassingly long before someone explained to me that's not how cough medicine works. I think I was 37.
I learned something new today!

Tragic Monkey, putting the 'e' in ISF. Who'd a thunk.
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Old 17th September 2018, 03:47 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by welshdean View Post
I learned something new today!

Tragic Monkey, putting the 'e' in ISF. Who'd a thunk.
Which something? Did I turn you gay? So far I've only converted four people, and I need to get at least seven to earn the tote bag.
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Old 17th September 2018, 04:24 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Which something? Did I turn you gay? So far I've only converted four people, and I need to get at least seven to earn the tote bag.
I have the tote bag already, so please turn me gay!
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Old 17th September 2018, 10:30 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Say, I believe that suggesting that the only types of beliefs are religious beliefs might indeed be the silliest thing I have seen in a heck of a long while.
I find that it makes me feel a lot better if I hear TBD's posts in my head with a Southern Belle accent.
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Old 17th September 2018, 11:48 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Say, I believe that suggesting that the only types of beliefs are religious beliefs might indeed be the silliest thing I have seen in a heck of a long while.
OK, I'll grant you the internet point. I left the word 'religious' out of my post. I meant 'religious belief' (as of course was obvious to anyone not just looking to score points). Now, having given you your sticky gold star, could you actually deal with the point?
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Old 18th September 2018, 01:39 AM   #61
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Officially catholic, I went to a catholic school from 6 to 12, but it was lip service only. The occasional story from the children's bible, forced church maybe twice a year. Once during christmas where we played the nativity scene, where for some reason the children of the parents that organized it always were perfect for the leading roles.

By the time I figured out the Sinterklaas (dutch Santa Claus) thing, I pretty much filed the bible in the same category.

My parents never bothered much with religion, they just gave us normal values for the western world and left it at that.
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Old 18th September 2018, 01:43 AM   #62
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I wasn't raised to believe anything in particular. Religion was simply not a thing that my family did. I guess that if pressed we would probably identify as kinda sorta vaguely Anglican, but we never went to church. My brother had Confirmation, but I didn't. I'm pretty sure that he never set foot in a church again.
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Old 18th September 2018, 03:15 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Declaring ones own beliefs to be normal and rational is not using logic.

It is argument by bare assertion.

Say, we are using logic.
What were you raised to believe, TBD? Did you carry those beliefs into adulthood? That's the subject of the thread. Do you want to contribute, or just take potshots at other posters?

Last edited by Minoosh; 18th September 2018 at 03:22 AM.
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Old 18th September 2018, 03:54 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
What were you raised to believe, TBD? Did you carry those beliefs into adulthood?........
The correlation between parental beliefs and those of offspring is very high. My jaw would hit the floor if TBD were to come back with "my parents were both animists".
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Old 18th September 2018, 04:35 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Ron Swanson View Post
How were you raised?
Catholic, but then I grew up.
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Old 18th September 2018, 05:00 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Catholicism, heterosexuality, and that cough medicine works by "coating your throat" so you shouldn't drink any fluids after taking cough medicine or it would be rendered worthless. Rejected the first two things by age 14, but it took embarrassingly long before someone explained to me that's not how cough medicine works. I think I was 37.
You have just shattered my world with the cough medecine revelation.
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Old 18th September 2018, 08:49 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
OK, I'll grant you the internet point. I left the word 'religious' out of my post. I meant 'religious belief' (as of course was obvious to anyone not just looking to score points). Now, having given you your sticky gold star, could you actually deal with the point?
Check, lets fix that up:

"You go fundamentally wrong when you determine that non-religious people have religious belief."

All fixed.

Now to deal with the "point," ahem: that is ridiculous, i never said anything remotely like that.

That was well worth my time.
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Old 18th September 2018, 09:18 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
Conservative Jewish -

went to temple (on most holidays), kept kosher (inside the house), had Shabbat dinner, went to hebrew school, Jewish youth group, summer in Israel, each of my parents were president of the synagogue at different points, the whole thing ...

But here's the kicker - My family absolutely lacked any spirituality whatsoever. My mother, I think, at least believed god existed and took a general interest in our lives. Last night, as we approach Yom Kippur, I asked my father, "Gun to your head, is there a god?" and he answered, "I try not to think about these things."

So, even though we said all the words and did all the things, they were just meaningless. The community was important, so the rituals had some use. They bound people together. And, in fact, our closest friends were all members of our temple.

Why do it? Two of my grandparents were born in Poland and the other two were both the youngest of several siblings, each the only one born in the US. Duty to family is a pretty strong motivator.
I have a good friend who was raised reform and he was hesitant to put his kids in hebrew school because he no longer believed in god. Then he remembered that hebrew school is where he learned the most about logic and critical thinking and really that is where he figured out that god was fairly unlikely. Besides, he loved the community.

I have similar feelings towards Jesuit high schools. If you have a son and want them to be inoculated from beliefs in the mythical, you would be hard pressed to find a better place than a Jesuit high school. Of my class of around 150 I would be surprised if even 30 of them are believers. But I bet at least 75 of them give money to a church or Catholic charity every year. Service and giving back to the community seemed far more important to the Jesuits than faith.

I grew up Episcopalian, but I get the feeling that Church was more of an affordable country club than a religious event for my parents. We all were altar servers and Dad served on the board of the church and as an usher. The community was not as strong as some, but it certainly provided a nice base of connections separate from school. Follow that up with the Jesuits and by the time I was graduating from college I just wasn't that torn up about whether there was a god or not. Who cared, since all evidence was that if there was a god it certainly didn't impact our lives.

For my own kids we had an opportunity to do some deep dives into Greek and Roman mythology in grade school and that seems to have helped them navigate the various religious beliefs of those around them. It probably helped that they had friends from three different jewish temples, all varieties of christianity and some non-religious families. I can't think of any muslims friends, but I'm sure they would correct me on that and point out some classmates that were muslim that I just never noticed. Hindi was certainly in the mix along with some other eastern belief systems.

Isolation makes it seem like there is only one true way, and Pascal's wager seems like a logical reason to follow that way should your faith waver. Exposure to a wider variety of beliefs makes that a bit tougher to swallow.
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Old 18th September 2018, 09:23 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Check, lets fix that up:

"You go fundamentally wrong when you determine that non-religious people have religious belief."

All fixed.

Now to deal with the "point," ahem: that is ridiculous, i never said anything remotely like that.

That was well worth my time.
Now, rather than continuing to **** about, you could respond to post #49. See if that is worth your time.
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Old 18th September 2018, 10:06 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Now, rather than continuing to **** about, you could respond to post #49. See if that is worth your time.
I did, it is clearly not worth my time. I mean it starts out with a major error and then goes on to build piles of straw and assumptions, and bulldozes them.
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Old 18th September 2018, 10:09 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I did, it is clearly not worth my time. I mean it starts out with a major error and then goes on to build piles of straw and assumptions, and bulldozes them.
You know, since you haven't responded to the OP either, it seems like this just isn't a thread you really care to engage seriously in.
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Old 18th September 2018, 10:20 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
You know, since you haven't responded to the OP either, it seems like this just isn't a thread you really care to engage seriously in.
yeah, i did... so... thanks for posting i guess?
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Old 18th September 2018, 10:29 AM   #73
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I was raised Catholic. Baptized, and Confirmed. Even got married in a Catholic Church.

My schooling up until College was in Catholic schools. My Parents weren't terribly devout, however. We went to Church a few times a year, but almost always at Easter and Christmas.

I haven't attended Mass in years. Nor do I plan to.
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Old 18th September 2018, 01:12 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I have a good friend who was raised reform and he was hesitant to put his kids in hebrew school because he no longer believed in god. Then he remembered that hebrew school is where he learned the most about logic and critical thinking and really that is where he figured out that god was fairly unlikely. Besides, he loved the community.

It's a difficult decision when it comes to my own children. They're missing out on experiences that were a huge part in shaping my life. But I just had real trouble having my son come home to tell me all about this big flood and how Noah saved all the animals just so I could go, "Yeah, that never happened."

Also, it is unbelievably expensive.
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Old 18th September 2018, 01:24 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
yeah, i did... so... thanks for posting i guess?
Hmm. That's your understanding of "serious engagement", is it?
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Old 18th September 2018, 01:33 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
I was raised Catholic. Baptized, and Confirmed. Even got married in a Catholic Church.

My schooling up until College was in Catholic schools. My Parents weren't terribly devout, however. We went to Church a few times a year, but almost always at Easter and Christmas.

I haven't attended Mass in years. Nor do I plan to.

Such a large number of posters here were raised as Catholics and then, as so succinctly put by Belz... grew up. Why don't some ...... grow up that is?
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Old 18th September 2018, 01:37 PM   #77
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Mark down another that grew up Catholic. As I came of age, say middle school and onward, I naturally became more curious about the wider world. Went through of phase of increased interest and devotion to the Catholicism, followed by a few years of trying to rationalize all the moral and factual inconsistencies, then finally giving up on it altogether. Combined with my interest in Libertarianism, I consider that my somewhat awkward "growing pains" phase of my intellectual life.
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Old 18th September 2018, 01:40 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Really? "I was raised with only normal/rational beliefs."

"My beliefs are normal rational, you other people have unnormal irrational beliefs."

I was raised to use logic.
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Declaring ones own beliefs to be normal and rational is not using logic.

It is argument by bare assertion.

Say, we are using logic.
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Say, I believe that suggesting that the only types of beliefs are religious beliefs might indeed be the silliest thing I have seen in a heck of a long while.
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Check, lets fix that up:

"You go fundamentally wrong when you determine that non-religious people have religious belief."

All fixed.

Now to deal with the "point," ahem: that is ridiculous, i never said anything remotely like that.

That was well worth my time.
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I did, it is clearly not worth my time. I mean it starts out with a major error and then goes on to build piles of straw and assumptions, and bulldozes them.
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
yeah, i did... so... thanks for posting i guess?
You know, I was going to reply that none of the above really addressed the core question of the OP:

Originally Posted by Ron Swanson View Post
How were you raised?
But upon reflection, I think that taken as a whole, it actually does.

Thanks.
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Old 18th September 2018, 01:46 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Such a large number of posters here were raised as Catholics and then, as so succinctly put by Belz... grew up. Why don't some ...... grow up that is?
I would venture that many did, intellectually, but cling to the tradition from a sense of community and family
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Old 18th September 2018, 01:53 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I would venture that many did, intellectually, but cling to the tradition from a sense of community and family
To that point: my kids attended Catholic Church pretty regularly as kids and then a bit less regularly as they got older. We still go to mass when with my wife's parents and on some other occasions. I think my wife would understand if the kids didn't get married in the church, but her parents would be less understanding.
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