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Old 23rd September 2014, 07:04 AM   #921
Jeff Wagg
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Alison's timeline is correct. Approximately 30 minutes after I took her back to her room, she asked to be taken to the condo. She was having trouble walking to the car which was in the back valet area. Security noticed this, and stopped us, and then offered a wheelchair to help her get to the car. We accepted. I took her to the condo, stayed for a while and then returned to the Flamingo to get ready for the next day of TAM.

I have no way of knowing what went on behind closed doors, but I do know that Alison was very upset, and very drunk. And what she told me that night matches what she's saying now.
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Old 23rd September 2014, 07:04 AM   #922
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Funny how the man is a known liar yet the woman is the one being given the third degree.
And yet you haven't shown that he lied once. Go figure.
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Old 23rd September 2014, 07:08 AM   #923
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Originally Posted by Verklagekasper View Post
How about, why did she spend a "lovely portion of the evening" with the man who allegedly raped her two months before?
This is a non sequitur.

What where you trying to say by your scorn for her getting drunk?
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Old 23rd September 2014, 07:09 AM   #924
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Smith says she is all for them coming forward, but none of them come forward.

This was propitiously timed.
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Old 23rd September 2014, 07:10 AM   #925
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Originally Posted by Jeff Wagg View Post
Alison's timeline is correct. Approximately 30 minutes after I took her back to her room, she asked to be taken to the condo. She was having trouble walking to the car which was in the back valet area. Security noticed this, and stopped us, and then offered a wheelchair to help her get to the car. We accepted. I took her to the condo, stayed for a while and then returned to the Flamingo to get ready for the next day of TAM.

I have no way of knowing what went on behind closed doors, but I do know that Alison was very upset, and very drunk. And what she told me that night matches what she's saying now.
Finally! Awesome!

What were the vicious rumours about Smith that Shermer looked into? (Or if you don't want to spread them further, did they have to do with Shermer or something unrelated?)

Where did you find her in the hotel and how long did it take? Was she aware of what hotel she was in or did she ask you?

That should about clear up my questions.
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Old 23rd September 2014, 07:14 AM   #926
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Last I checked, I wasn't a cop ..
Hence, "imagine".
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Old 23rd September 2014, 07:16 AM   #927
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Finally! Awesome!

What were the vicious rumours about Smith that Shermer looked into? (Or if you don't want to spread them further, did they have to do with Shermer or something unrelated?)

Where did you find her in the hotel and how long did it take? Was she aware of what hotel she was in or did she ask you?

That should about clear up my questions.
I had heard no "vicious rumors" from anyone other than Shermer. The rumor he was referring to was that they had had sex that night, and he denied it.

She called me from the elevator. I asked her where she was, and she said she didn't know. I believe I asked her to go to the bottom floor and tell me what she saw. When she did, I knew where she was, and I went and retrieved her.
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Old 23rd September 2014, 07:27 AM   #928
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Originally Posted by Jeff Wagg View Post
I had heard no "vicious rumors" from anyone other than Shermer. The rumor he was referring to was that they had had sex that night, and he denied it.

She called me from the elevator. I asked her where she was, and she said she didn't know. I believe I asked her to go to the bottom floor and tell me what she saw. When she did, I knew where she was, and I went and retrieved her.
Thank you, this clears a lot of things up.
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Old 23rd September 2014, 07:29 AM   #929
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Originally Posted by Jeff Wagg View Post
I had heard no "vicious rumors" from anyone other than Shermer. The rumor he was referring to was that they had had sex that night, and he denied it.

She called me from the elevator. I asked her where she was, and she said she didn't know. I believe I asked her to go to the bottom floor and tell me what she saw. When she did, I knew where she was, and I went and retrieved her.
I thank you for showing up and pretty much settling that discussion.

I fear we'll have to go back to investigating yetis now...
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Old 23rd September 2014, 07:34 AM   #930
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Originally Posted by Jeff Wagg View Post
I had heard no "vicious rumors" from anyone other than Shermer. The rumor he was referring to was that they had had sex that night, and he denied it.

She called me from the elevator. I asked her where she was, and she said she didn't know. I believe I asked her to go to the bottom floor and tell me what she saw. When she did, I knew where she was, and I went and retrieved her.
Two more questions: Did she tell you at that time that Shermer raped her and did you ask Shermer about that or something more to the effect "Hey, there's a rumour going around that you bedded Alison Smith"?

A witness can clear so much up so quickly, can't they? (Ooooops, I guess that's a third question.)
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Old 23rd September 2014, 07:42 AM   #931
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Two more questions: Did she tell you at that time that Shermer raped her and did you ask Shermer about that or something more to the effect "Hey, there's a rumour going around that you bedded Alison Smith"?

A witness can clear so much up so quickly, can't they? (Ooooops, I guess that's a third question.)
I didn't ask Shermer anything. He called me. As I said earlier, Alison's story has not changed.
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Old 23rd September 2014, 07:45 AM   #932
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Originally Posted by Jeff Wagg View Post
I didn't ask Shermer anything. He called me. As I said earlier, Alison's story has not changed.
Thanks.

Did she mention to you at the time that he had raped her and that's why she wanted to go to the condo?
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Old 23rd September 2014, 07:51 AM   #933
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Yes.
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Old 23rd September 2014, 08:05 AM   #934
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Well, there goes the thread. Late to the party, but what an entrance!

:-)
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Old 23rd September 2014, 08:11 AM   #935
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Originally Posted by Jeff Wagg View Post
Yes.
Does that mean you were the person from JREF that she told about it, or was there someone else as well?
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Old 23rd September 2014, 08:17 AM   #936
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Well, there goes the thread. Late to the party, but what an entrance!

:-)
I'm willing to bet that someone will come up with yet more objections and grounds for Just Asking Questions.
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Old 23rd September 2014, 08:31 AM   #937
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Oh, it's an interesting topic and I'm sure there is a lot of nuance that could be found. When ever you get a topic like this where there is a strong moral imperative felt by participants in a debate, you'll get people wanting to argue that they lack nuance, or are ignoring alternative explanations for things.
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Old 23rd September 2014, 09:00 AM   #938
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Does that mean you were the person from JREF that she told about it, or was there someone else as well?
I know the answer to that, obviously, but this is Alison's story, not mine. My only role here is to say that thus far, she has told the truth.
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Old 23rd September 2014, 09:17 AM   #939
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Originally Posted by Jeff Wagg View Post
I know the answer to that, obviously, but this is Alison's story, not mine. My only role here is to say that thus far, she has told the truth.
Much appreciated.
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Old 23rd September 2014, 09:19 AM   #940
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Originally Posted by Jeff Wagg View Post
Alison's timeline is correct. Approximately 30 minutes after I took her back to her room, she asked to be taken to the condo. She was having trouble walking to the car which was in the back valet area. Security noticed this, and stopped us, and then offered a wheelchair to help her get to the car. We accepted. I took her to the condo, stayed for a while and then returned to the Flamingo to get ready for the next day of TAM.

I have no way of knowing what went on behind closed doors, but I do know that Alison was very upset, and very drunk. And what she told me that night matches what she's saying now.
And there we go. Between this statement and Shermer's changing story, I think it would take quite a lot of good evidence to the contrary to persuade me that Smith's story is not true.
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Old 23rd September 2014, 09:20 AM   #941
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Originally Posted by dasmiller View Post
Much appreciated.
You beat me to it. Thanks Jeff.
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Old 23rd September 2014, 09:31 AM   #942
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Alison is the one taking all the risks here. The thanks belong to her.
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Old 23rd September 2014, 10:35 AM   #943
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Jeff and Alison, thanks so much for setting the record straight. My respect for the two of you is ever growing.
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Old 23rd September 2014, 11:08 AM   #944
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My question now is: If Smith was an employee and you her supervisor, or even just a JREF representative, did you report this to your superior? I don't see at this point the that it was up to Smith to report to police, you and the JREF, had a responsibility to protect your employee. If Smith did not want to press charges that is something that would have been between her and the DA. To cover the JREF's employer, and moral obligation, it should have been reported.
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Old 23rd September 2014, 11:13 AM   #945
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Jeff and Alison, thanks so much for setting the record straight. My respect for the two of you is ever growing.
I'm not sure how much respect I would have for a man who, according to his account, knew that very night his girlfriend had been raped and didn't call the police and then continued a professional relationship with the rapist.

Those of us who have had friends raped and, in my case, had a friend shot to death by her husband when she attempted to leave him and whose past violent behavior was not brought to light, wonder about why anyone would allow a rapist/abuser to walk free and how that puts other, equally innocent parties in danger.

Crimes of this type have with them a social responsibility to be reported and continuing an amicable relations with a rapist or abuser is utterly baffling and irresponsible.

I'm not even asking for an explanation of why the crime was not reported and why the criminal was allowed to walk free, why the statue of limitations was allowed to expire and why people so utterly shocked now proceeded with business as usual then.

It's appalling.
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Old 23rd September 2014, 11:28 AM   #946
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So JREF invites 'rapists' to their conventions? Over and over again? And you guys are applauding? Wow.
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Old 23rd September 2014, 11:32 AM   #947
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I have to wonder what sort of accountability the JREF has if this is true and other women were harmed.
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Old 23rd September 2014, 11:35 AM   #948
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
My question now is: If Smith was an employee and you her supervisor, or even just a JREF representative, did you report this to your superior? I don't see at this point the that it was up to Smith to report to police, you and the JREF, had a responsibility to protect your employee. If Smith did not want to press charges that is something that would have been between her and the DA. To cover the JREF's employer, and moral obligation, it should have been reported.
So very much this. There is absolutely no excuse for this sort of thing to be swept under the rug. I hope Jeff understands exactly what he is taking responsibility for here. "Bravery" indeed.
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Old 23rd September 2014, 11:37 AM   #949
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Originally Posted by SinisterBen View Post
So JREF invites 'rapists' to their conventions? Over and over again? And you guys are applauding? Wow.
I'm still trying to wrap my head around this photo:



This was apparently posted two months after the TAM in question where the rape occurred. In it we have the rapist, the rape victim talking about having a "lovely portion" with the rapist and the victim's boyfriend who knew she was raped having a smile with both.

Seriously, what sort of moral universe do these people exist in?
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Old 23rd September 2014, 11:42 AM   #950
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And that's it for me. Peace out, y'all.
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Old 23rd September 2014, 11:57 AM   #951
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Originally Posted by SinisterBen View Post
So JREF invites 'rapists' to their conventions? Over and over again? And you guys are applauding? Wow.
Yeah this is seriously disturbing information. I was holding off making judgement on this one but to know that someone who actually worked for JREF knew that Shermer was a rapist and hushed it up for years is really appalling.
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Old 23rd September 2014, 12:10 PM   #952
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Originally Posted by Mykeru View Post
Seriously, what sort of moral universe do these people exist in?
A murky one, I think. One filled with nuance, conflicting priorities, ambiguities and ambivalence, regrets and recriminations.

Mine is similar.
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Old 23rd September 2014, 12:11 PM   #953
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Originally Posted by Mykeru View Post
I'm not sure how much respect I would have for a man who, according to his account, knew that very night his girlfriend had been raped and didn't call the police and then continued a professional relationship with the rapist.
Or at the very least to a hospital.
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Old 23rd September 2014, 12:16 PM   #954
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
My question now is: If Smith was an employee and you her supervisor, or even just a JREF representative, did you report this to your superior? I don't see at this point the that it was up to Smith to report to police, you and the JREF, had a responsibility to protect your employee. If Smith did not want to press charges that is something that would have been between her and the DA. To cover the JREF's employer, and moral obligation, it should have been reported.
Originally Posted by Mykeru View Post
I'm not sure how much respect I would have for a man who, according to his account, knew that very night his girlfriend had been raped and didn't call the police and then continued a professional relationship with the rapist.

Those of us who have had friends raped and, in my case, had a friend shot to death by her husband when she attempted to leave him and whose past violent behavior was not brought to light, wonder about why anyone would allow a rapist/abuser to walk free and how that puts other, equally innocent parties in danger.

Crimes of this type have with them a social responsibility to be reported and continuing an amicable relations with a rapist or abuser is utterly baffling and irresponsible.

I'm not even asking for an explanation of why the crime was not reported and why the criminal was allowed to walk free, why the statue of limitations was allowed to expire and why people so utterly shocked now proceeded with business as usual then.

It's appalling.
Originally Posted by SinisterBen View Post
So JREF invites 'rapists' to their conventions? Over and over again? And you guys are applauding? Wow.
Originally Posted by Mykeru View Post
I'm still trying to wrap my head around this photo:



This was apparently posted two months after the TAM in question where the rape occurred. In it we have the rapist, the rape victim talking about having a "lovely portion" with the rapist and the victim's boyfriend who knew she was raped having a smile with both.

Seriously, what sort of moral universe do these people exist in?
Originally Posted by DeadEyedSuburbanite View Post
Yeah this is seriously disturbing information. I was holding off making judgement on this one but to know that someone who actually worked for JREF knew that Shermer was a rapist and hushed it up for years is really appalling.



So, any chance we could see some of this outrage directed, ya know, at the rapist?
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Old 23rd September 2014, 12:25 PM   #955
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
So, any chance we could see some of this outrage directed, ya know, at the rapist?
Any reason the level of outrage expressed by Wagg in the photo cited above is not a suitable guideline?
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Old 23rd September 2014, 12:25 PM   #956
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Any reason the level of outrage expressed by Wagg in the photo cited above is not a suitable guideline?
I think we are pretending that doesn't exist.
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Old 23rd September 2014, 12:26 PM   #957
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
So, any chance we could see some of this outrage directed, ya know, at the rapist?
Does he have a JREF account?
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Old 23rd September 2014, 12:26 PM   #958
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Originally Posted by SinisterBen View Post
Is he here? No. Kinda futile to talk to him here.


But critiquing actions taken years ago that cannot be undone now is useful?


At least voicing disapproval of Shermer here provides some support to those who want him dis-invited from events like TAM going forward from this point.
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Old 23rd September 2014, 12:27 PM   #959
colander
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Any reason the level of outrage expressed by Wagg in the photo cited above is not a suitable guideline?
Tu quoque is not a great look for you here.
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Old 23rd September 2014, 12:27 PM   #960
Horatius
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Originally Posted by SinisterBen View Post
Is he here? No. Kinda futile to talk to him here.
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Any reason the level of outrage expressed by Wagg in the photo cited above is not a suitable guideline?
Originally Posted by SinisterBen View Post
I think we are pretending that doesn't exist.
Originally Posted by DeadEyedSuburbanite View Post
Does he have a JREF account?


So that's a "No" then.
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