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Old 9th December 2018, 11:00 AM   #41
Skeptical Greg
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My point was not whether the guidelines were being followed, but rather that the guidelines are flawed, which I guess, doesn't really matter.





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Old 9th December 2018, 05:44 PM   #42
AlaskaBushPilot
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
People sit on their asses all day, their kids are inside on computers instead of mowing lawns, riding bikes, or - standing up. I rarely see kids outside in my town, in fact it's close to never. Nobody riding bikes, playing catch...so sad.

People are lazy and love to make excuses and play the victim these days. You and your kids are fat because you choose not to address it properly and I feel that is true in 99.999% of cases.
At homeschool, exercise is school and generally it is either outdoor resource harvesting related or MMA indoors.

If one kid gets sick, I see the other gaining weight because without his partner he's sitting around more too, but stuffing mom's cookies and pork roast in his belly.

It's VERY quickly noticeable. A couple of days off, and you see it. On the other hand, as the regular routine is back in motion they quickly work it off.

The argument you advance here is true in so many things. Education and job skills too.

So really the question is why people are so lazy now. In previous years the laziness manifested in 5 hours of television viewing a day but now it is tv plus video games plus phone sexting and whatnot taking up at least 5 hours a day of the typical fat young and stupid American.

You have enclaves of health. Colorado, as a state, does very well. You find a lot of fitness-conscious people there. So why is that. I dunno.
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Old 10th December 2018, 09:30 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by AlaskaBushPilot View Post
At homeschool, exercise is school and generally it is either outdoor resource harvesting related or MMA indoors.

If one kid gets sick, I see the other gaining weight because without his partner he's sitting around more too, but stuffing mom's cookies and pork roast in his belly.

It's VERY quickly noticeable. A couple of days off, and you see it. On the other hand, as the regular routine is back in motion they quickly work it off.

The argument you advance here is true in so many things. Education and job skills too.

So really the question is why people are so lazy now. In previous years the laziness manifested in 5 hours of television viewing a day but now it is tv plus video games plus phone sexting and whatnot taking up at least 5 hours a day of the typical fat young and stupid American.

You have enclaves of health. Colorado, as a state, does very well. You find a lot of fitness-conscious people there. So why is that. I dunno.
I'd argue that Colorado is not doing well at all, it's only a relative thing. Obesity has gone up everywhere in the industrialized world.

Yes, they have the lowest levels of obesity of any US state, at almost 23% as of last year.

But twenty years ago, the highest obesity rate is the US was Mississippi, at just over 19%.

The population of Colorado currently has higher rates of obesity than the fattest state had twenty years ago. I find that a bit concerning.

https://stateofobesity.org/adult-obesity/
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Old 10th December 2018, 03:52 PM   #44
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Something else to chew on:


How does obesity cause cancer?


Quote:
The link between obesity and cancer risk is clear. Research shows that excess body fat increases your risk for several cancers, including colorectal, post-menopausal breast, endometrial, esophageal, kidney and pancreatic cancers.
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Old 10th December 2018, 04:37 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Something else to chew on:


How does obesity cause cancer?
I call "Confounding" on that. Cancer and obesity are both genetic diseases. With lots of overlap. What do twin studies show?

Anecdote: I'm obese. My older brother, heavy, died of pancreas cancer. My younger brother, slim, athletic enough to commute by bike up hiway 34 to Estes Park, is dying of colon cancer. I will out live them both. So, cancer genes, yup. Obesity genes yup. Horse/cart? Nope.
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Old 10th December 2018, 04:51 PM   #46
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Looking at it that way, all disease is genetic, including aging.


The research clearly shows, obesity increases the risk for cancer.
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Old 10th December 2018, 07:41 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
I call "Confounding" on that. Cancer and obesity are both genetic diseases. With lots of overlap. What do twin studies show?

Anecdote: I'm obese. My older brother, heavy, died of pancreas cancer. My younger brother, slim, athletic enough to commute by bike up hiway 34 to Estes Park, is dying of colon cancer. I will out live them both. So, cancer genes, yup. Obesity genes yup. Horse/cart? Nope.
You realise that you and your brothers don't share all the same genes, right?

Also, an individual dying of cancer doesn't demonstrate "cancer genes", unless you think those without said genes have a 0% cancer rate. Similar for obesity.
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Old 10th December 2018, 08:56 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Looking at it that way, all disease is genetic, including aging.


The research clearly shows, obesity increases the risk for cancer.
Yep, and obesity is a result of lifestyle. Blaming it on genetics is just an excuse.

Although the research isn't as clear there is also a correlation between obesity and lowered IQ.
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Old 11th December 2018, 05:52 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
You realise that you and your brothers don't share all the same genes, right?

Also, an individual dying of cancer doesn't demonstrate "cancer genes", unless you think those without said genes have a 0% cancer rate. Similar for obesity.
A) I told you it was an anecdote.

b) I asked about twin studies. You know, identical twins raised apart. Same genes, different environment. Questions would be 1) are obesity rates the same? 1) is the cancer rate the same?

And CICO is for sure true. But the genes make it a lot harder to do them 'push aways', push yourself away from the table.

Yaeh, that's it. A form of myopathy, weak push away muscles!
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Old 11th December 2018, 01:31 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by rustypouch View Post
I'd argue that Colorado is not doing well at all, it's only a relative thing. Obesity has gone up everywhere in the industrialized world.

Yes, they have the lowest levels of obesity of any US state, at almost 23% as of last year.

But twenty years ago, the highest obesity rate is the US was Mississippi, at just over 19%.

The population of Colorado currently has higher rates of obesity than the fattest state had twenty years ago. I find that a bit concerning.

https://stateofobesity.org/adult-obesity/
Yes, there is no denying it.

In statistics, we have cross-sectional comparisons (like between states) and we have time series, which the thread addresses, the increase in obestity for every state over time.

Oftentimes the cross-sectional study reveals something that is changing over time generally, and I will advance that argument now.

It is not only true that Colorado is tops as a state, but across individuals within that state it is the outdoor nuts, the health conscious, the skiiers and hikers and bikers and skaters, etc. that are not obese.

A lot of those types self-select to Colorado for that reason, which explains the average difference by state pretty well. And over time you see the proportion of people doing a lot of active exercise and watching diets declining in Colorado too.

You have to work at being fit in an environment of leisure and plenty. So I am training as a cat burglar. I always wanted to be a second-story man. Grappling hooks, rapelling, and spider-man climbing. Name one cat burglar who was fat.

Ted Bundy got out of jail by fasting down below 100 pounds and squeezing through an air duct. So there are a lot of hobbies closed off to you when you are obese. The question is what motivates each individual. Because not everyone is motivated by the need to continue mass murder and cannibalism.
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Old 11th December 2018, 05:46 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
A) I told you it was an anecdote.

b) I asked about twin studies. You know, identical twins raised apart. Same genes, different environment. Questions would be 1) are obesity rates the same? 1) is the cancer rate the same?

And CICO is for sure true. But the genes make it a lot harder to do them 'push aways', push yourself away from the table.

Yaeh, that's it. A form of myopathy, weak push away muscles!
Sure, agreed. I have no issue with any of that.

I was only taking issue with:
Quote:
So, cancer genes, yup. Obesity genes yup.
I may have misunderstood, but I thought you were saying that based on your anecdote you could conclude that you, as an individual, had both "cancer genes" and "obesity genes".

That conclusion isn't justified by the anecdote, though you should increase your estimation of the probability that you have those genes above the average in the general population based on what you know from your brothers.
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Old 11th December 2018, 06:28 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
And CICO is for sure true. But the genes make it a lot harder to do them 'push aways', push yourself away from the table.

Yaeh, that's it. A form of myopathy, weak push away muscles!
Earlier you said:

Originally Posted by casebro View Post
The genetic 'defect' for insulin resistance is in 40% of people, not everybody. Making weight a genetic variation like height. I'll lose 4" off my waist when you gain two inches of height.
So is your view that genes determine eating patterns, and these are impossible to change?
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Old 11th December 2018, 10:14 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
Earlier you said:



So is your view that genes determine eating patterns, and these are impossible to change?
Not impossible, just much more difficult than for those of you who lost ten pounds easily, and say "I did it, why don't you?"
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