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Old 12th December 2018, 08:00 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Hypothetically, what would be the point of jacking a car that is reporting its' location up-to-the-second, and could possibly be remotely disabled?
Very true, and sort of where I was headed. People are worried about self-driving cars being stopped by people or objects on the road (for robbery, rather than car-jacking though), saying it wouldn't happen if humans were in control. But it has already happened with humans in control.

If anything, the self-driving car will be less likely, precisely because it's location is known and they'll be ways to summon help immediately. Not to mention it's covered in freaking cameras.

ETA: Not to mention that self-driving cars would be pretty much immune to the "pretend to be broken down on the side of the road to rob someone" trick that humans still fall for.
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Old 12th December 2018, 08:10 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Very true, and sort of where I was headed. People are worried about self-driving cars being stopped by people or objects on the road (for robbery, rather than car-jacking though), saying it wouldn't happen if humans were in control. But it has already happened with humans in control.

If anything, the self-driving car will be less likely, precisely because it's location is known and they'll be ways to summon help immediately. Not to mention it's covered in freaking cameras.

ETA: Not to mention that self-driving cars would be pretty much immune to the "pretend to be broken down on the side of the road to rob someone" trick that humans still fall for.

Yeah but... Black Mirror. And Skynet. And stuff.
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Old 12th December 2018, 09:29 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Just an observation here, but haven't there already been car-jackings where the vehicle was stopped by a person standing in the road, and the car-jacker came up from the side?

So saying this wouldn't happen to humans is a bit odd, seeing as how it already has happened to humans.


I wasn't car-jacked, but I did stop in the road one time because there was a guy lying in the middle of the street, drunk off his ass. I couldn't steer around him because a)I'm not complete sociopath, and thought I should stop and investigate, and b)because the street was too narrow, there being large snowbanks at the time.

So, yeah, I could have been jacked, if he hadn't just been a drunk idiot.
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Old 12th December 2018, 09:31 AM   #84
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Trying to pull off this kind of crime in a world were 99% of the adult population has a telecommunications device and recording device not outside of their reach for pretty much their entire life always strikes me as rather stupid.

"Set ups" just seem really risky in a world where a lot, perhaps most, people are going to have the "Pull out my phone, document the event, and call an outside party for assistance" reflex response before they get the part you can spring the trap on them.
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Old 12th December 2018, 05:01 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
The trolley problem aspect gets discussed over here, not much but it does, it's the "if you can't run someone over they'll rob you" aspect that's missing.
That's an interesting observation, it is only here have I have encountered the fear of being a victim of a serious and potential deadly crime being brought up.
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Old 13th December 2018, 04:12 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
Hypothetically, what would be the point of jacking a car that is reporting its' location up-to-the-second, and could possibly be remotely disabled?
Well, hostage-taking, perhaps. Or grab the money and run. There are plenty of burglaries in houses with burglar alarms. They just barge in, grab what values they can spot, and run before the police arrives.

Another problem: Not all users would be happy about constant surveillance. Some might even resent the car storing information of the trip.

Hans
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Old 14th December 2018, 10:52 AM   #87
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Obviously the anti-driverless car loons constantly try and think of a "situation X" where a human would be better than the AI.

Here's their problem. Even if they think of a situation that fits, it will only be a problem for the AI AT FIRST.

It will be found. It will be fixed. TRILLIONS of hours of real world input are going to be absorbed by these systems. A sufficiently advanced AI will always end up being better than a human at anything.

There are tons of reasons for that, but here are a few. AI does not have a 500 millisecond response time to deal with. That is a huge advantage. And on top of that, AI has an action speed that makes humans look like they aren't even doing anything. Also a big help in driving. And don't get me started on humans only being able to think about a few things at the same time, and only see in one direction. AI can think about relatively infinite things at the same time and see in every direction.

And here is the best proof: Humans are literally just meat computers. We have video input, memory, decision making; all easily outclassed by AI in the long run.

Throw enough information at it and a computer with better parts can do ANYTHING better than a computer with worse parts. Humans are a computer with worse parts.

And even if someone tries to think of something cute like "have sex and make a baby". They are still wrong. A sufficiently advanced AI could do that as well if that was the task it was given. All it takes is abducting a couple of meat bags.

The horse and buggy brigade either has no idea what they are talking about in relation to computers and AI or they are simply being bat **** crazy. Just like the original horse and buggy brigade in the late 1800s.
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Old 14th December 2018, 11:36 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
Obviously the anti-driverless car loons constantly try and think of a "situation X" where a human would be better than the AI.

Here's their problem. Even if they think of a situation that fits, it will only be a problem for the AI AT FIRST.

It will be found. It will be fixed. TRILLIONS of hours of real world input are going to be absorbed by these systems. A sufficiently advanced AI will always end up being better than a human at anything.
....
You're probably right, generally. But programming AI still requires human judgment. In the classic case, your autodrive car has a choice of running over one old man or five schoolkids or plowing into a tree killing the driver, and maybe the old man is holding something that could be a grocery bag or an infant carrier. The car can do any of those things equally well; somebody needs to tell it which to choose.

I don't see how you can eliminate the human factor entirely.
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Old 14th December 2018, 10:10 PM   #89
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The trolley problem questions are amusing, but the car will never "know" anything, and will only attempt to stop.

Think in terms of "If object in path, then stop"

There's an amazing amount of belief in magical AI software that just doesn't match anything that we know about software.
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Old 14th December 2018, 11:48 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
The trolley problem questions are amusing, but the car will never "know" anything, and will only attempt to stop.

Think in terms of "If object in path, then stop"

There's an amazing amount of belief in magical AI software that just doesn't match anything that we know about software.

You have absolutely no idea how AI works.

Or the human brain for that matter.
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Old 14th December 2018, 11:59 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
In the classic case, your autodrive car has a choice of running over one old man or five schoolkids or plowing into a tree killing the driver, and maybe the old man is holding something that could be a grocery bag or an infant carrier. The car can do any of those things equally well; somebody needs to tell it which to choose.

No. A human does not need to tell it which decision to choose in order for it to choose what the majority of humans would have chosen.

In that situation, and others like it, the AI can make the exact same type of decision, based on the exact same type of moral judgements, that a human can. And faster.

Some of the people in this thread think AI means "a traditional software program with a fixed decision tree". It does not. At all.

Please realize that AI does not operate like any software script you may be familiar with.

Every single case brought up in this thread, especially by a certain poster, proves that the members have little to no understanding of how AI actually works. Especially in how and why it is different from a traditional computer program.
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Old Yesterday, 07:57 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
The trolley problem questions are amusing, but the car will never "know" anything, and will only attempt to stop.

Think in terms of "If object in path, then stop"

There's an amazing amount of belief in magical AI software that just doesn't match anything that we know about software.
The other thing I find amusing with the trolley problems (apart from the highly contrived scenarios) is how badly humans would be in the real world if these sort of situations were to come up.

Yes, I would like to think that in situation X I would do Y but if it actually happened would I do Y? Would I see the first part of the problem (running into Grandpa) avoid that but not have enough time to avoid the kids? Is the car under full control now? Did I just close my eyes and yank the steering wheel? Did I manage to swerve entirely but push the guy next to me under a truck?...
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Old Yesterday, 08:04 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Mongrel View Post
The other thing I find amusing with the trolley problems (apart from the highly contrived scenarios) is how badly humans would be in the real world if these sort of situations were to come up.

Yes, I would like to think that in situation X I would do Y but if it actually happened would I do Y? Would I see the first part of the problem (running into Grandpa) avoid that but not have enough time to avoid the kids? Is the car under full control now? Did I just close my eyes and yank the steering wheel? Did I manage to swerve entirely but push the guy next to me under a truck?...
All very true, but a human is allowed - even expected - to be less than perfect. But if an AV is shown to have software failings then it might be reasonable to suppose that every example of that model out on the roads has the same failing. Product recall! Lawsuit if injured by that failing!
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Old Yesterday, 08:19 AM   #94
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What kind of deep moral philosophizing do people think a human driver is gonna be able to pull of in the 1/245,535th of a second between when the adorable child who's gonna grow up to cure cancer runs in front of their car and he has to choose between hitting the kid or veering into the bus containing the Noble Prize winner who just invented to time machine he's gonna use to back and kill Hitler?

This is all just the standard Ludditism from the same peanut gallery who's only goal in life is to be the "I told you so" guy every time anything goes wrong so they poo-poo everything to maximize their odds.
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Old Yesterday, 08:57 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Mongrel View Post
The other thing I find amusing with the trolley problems (apart from the highly contrived scenarios) is how badly humans would be in the real world if these sort of situations were to come up.


Yeah, this. Anyone who thinks the average driver's reaction will be anything more complicated than, "Oh ****, Hit the Brakes!" has an unrealistically high opinion of humans.
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Old Yesterday, 10:09 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
....
This is all just the standard Ludditism from the same peanut gallery who's only goal in life is to be the "I told you so" guy every time anything goes wrong so they poo-poo everything to maximize their odds.
As noted above, the difference is that any decision a human makes -- good or bad -- is his alone and he alone is responsible for the consequences, but the presumption is that all AI vehicles will behave the same way under similar circumstances. That's what makes it a subject of broad interest. The AI vehicle might decide that its highest priority is protecting itself and its driver. Is that always what we want, and is that what a human driver would always do?
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Old Yesterday, 02:47 PM   #97
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I could live with that.
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Old Yesterday, 04:14 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
All very true, but a human is allowed - even expected - to be less than perfect. But if an AV is shown to have software failings then it might be reasonable to suppose that every example of that model out on the roads has the same failing. Product recall! Lawsuit if injured by that failing!
Two things (in my mind) would alleviate that;
1) Sensors up the wazoo, recording everything. Don't have to keep them, or store them in the cloud but have a 'Black box' with a rolling 10min sensor data. Would weed out the idiots trying to generate publicity\cash by driving dangerously around AI cars.
2) I believe a lot of the actual errors would be unreproducible, just from the sheer amount of data that's being processed at any given time.

Originally Posted by fagin View Post
I could live with that.
Spent twelve years journeying to and from work on the M25, I'd rather have the AI than some of the driver typres I saw there.
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Old Yesterday, 04:51 PM   #99
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So did I, and I agree.

Even worse, when our head office moved from Wimbledon to the City, I would have had to catch a bloody train.

I am now happily ensconced in a small branch office, in a village, a mile or so from my house. I don't miss my two or three (or longer) daily commute at all.
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Old Yesterday, 05:54 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
As noted above, the difference is that any decision a human makes -- good or bad -- is his alone and he alone is responsible for the consequences, but the presumption is that all AI vehicles will behave the same way under similar circumstances. That's what makes it a subject of broad interest. The AI vehicle might decide that its highest priority is protecting itself and its driver. Is that always what we want, and is that what a human driver would always do?
If it makes things objectively safer, I couldn't give a tin whistle fart if the trolley problem gets harder to solve and I care even less for the OMG SKYNET paranoia.
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Old Yesterday, 07:13 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
If it makes things objectively safer, I couldn't give a tin whistle fart if the trolley problem gets harder to solve and I care even less for the OMG SKYNET paranoia.
I would willingly accept carbots if they were only 80 or 90% as safe as current conditions.
I loathe driving-and am too old to switch careers.
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Old Yesterday, 08:45 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by bytewizard View Post
If the Tesla was driving autonomously, it was driving 5 miles per hour over the speed limit of 65. Will or do autonomous driving cars travel over the speed limit? I hope NO is the answer, thus this drunk driver was driving and probably on cruise control...
No. Cruise control does not control steering.

This is a Tesla that can drive independently on the freeway, but not on side streets and I've heard rumors it's lousy at parallel parking.

However, it was supposed to have safeguards that either shut down or woke sleeping drivers up. Think about it, no safety shut down if the driver has a heart attack or a stroke?

I believe Tesla was not happy about this situation.
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Old Yesterday, 08:54 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
I have two different free apps on my phone that give me speed limit notifications based on gps location and mapping software ...
Not only that, but at least one of the apps looks at other drivers around you that are in the system and can tell you how congested the road is and the side streets.

Stuck on the freeway coming back from the eclipse, 'Google' directed us off and around sections of it. It was obvious the whole line of cars in front and behind us were following the same voice in the phone.
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Old Yesterday, 08:58 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
You'd be surprised, most temporary speed limits I encounter when traveling for work have been reported and come up on Waze. It utilises the user base to notify and validate local data.


Every breath you take
And every move you make
Every bond you break
Every step you take
I'll be watching you


Yep, those aps be collecting that data, probably listening to you via the phone as well, except it's more data mining that eavesdropping.
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Old Yesterday, 09:07 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
What's a "fake line"? Is that like "fake news"... a line that you don't agree with?

A line is a line. If it's painted onto the roadway, yes it'd fool a human. Why wouldn't it? How do you think the "not fake" lines on the road get there? They're painted on. The only difference is whether someone was authorized to paint them on or not and neither your self-driving car nor yourself actually has the pedigree and work order copies available. For all intents and purposes lines painted on the roads look legitimate....
Has no one looked up how SDCs identify the lanes?

It's a bit more sophisticated than 'seeing lane lines'.
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Old Yesterday, 09:09 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
...

Another problem: Not all users would be happy about constant surveillance. Some might even resent the car storing information of the trip.

Hans
Meh, the old die out and the whole spying thing is the new normal for the generations that follow.

Raise your hand if the camera on your computer is covered.

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Old Yesterday, 09:20 PM   #107
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I've had a Tesla for about six months now, and driven it plenty on the highway with the auto assist mode enabled. So far, nobody has tried to rob me or run me off the road with painted lines. I, however, don't fully trust the system, and keep my hands on the wheel and eyes on the road. I have noticed a very positive improvement in the assisted driving AI in just the short time I've owned it, and the next generation of CPU coming out for the cars is supposedly worlds better than the current one, enabling neural network learning between all the compatible Teslas, all over the air.

That being said, I still won't fully trust them until they can "stand their own ground" and run people over in fear for their lives like a good Floridian can.
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Old Yesterday, 09:43 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Has no one looked up how SDCs identify the lanes?

It's a bit more sophisticated than 'seeing lane lines'.
I'm guessing that you didn't read the article that you linked to...
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Old Yesterday, 10:41 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by novaphile View Post
I'm guessing that you didn't read the article that you linked to...
Well you would be wrong. I was pointing out the discussion of how complex the program is. Painting an extra line would have to be a very sophisticated act in order to fool the program.
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Old Today, 01:19 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post


Every breath you take
And every move you make
Every bond you break
Every step you take
I'll be watching you


Yep, those aps be collecting that data, probably listening to you via the phone as well, except it's more data mining that eavesdropping.

I'm normally alone in the car, other than maybe a dog or five, the only words they're going to pick up are me singing along to the radio so let the punishment fit the crime. And believe me, an AI can still suffer when I'm singing.
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Old Today, 01:21 PM   #111
P.J. Denyer
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Originally Posted by foophil View Post
That being said, I still won't fully trust them until they can "stand their own ground" and run people over in fear for their lives like a good Floridian can.
Extraneous language removed.
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