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Old 16th May 2020, 05:23 PM   #41
SpitfireIX
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Like you, I'm sure that U-boats didn't use TBS to talk to each other during attacks. I do wonder whether they carried it to talk to other ships and shore installations when entering or leaving harbor, though, and I also wonder whether some might have carried it just to eavesdrop on the Allies. Both of those seem unlikely, but not impossible.

Your point about tactical radio is correct; Headache was originally developed to help deal with E-boat raids, which relied heavily on voice radio for coordination.
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Old 17th May 2020, 01:56 AM   #42
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Well, way I see it, through what would they even emit any other frequency than what huff-duff picked?

Before the spool antenna on the periscope, they had exactly two antennas to haul up on the deck: the normal one for the radio and the Metox one. Both requiring you to be on the surface, and run cables through the hatch, as I've said before. So you'd pretty much just pray nobody knows you're there, because you can't even dive in a hurry. And you don't know if the brits have a carrier somewhere nearby, which can royally screw you over, if you give them enough advance notice that you're hounding one of the convoys.

If it's happening before August 1942, the Metox would still be up when the sub is on the surface. If it's between that September '43, then at least the Metox isn't up.

After late '43, a sub would also have the reception equipment for the Goliath very low frequency reception, but that was only reception. Also being VLF it certainly wouldn't be usable at all for voice comms, since it actually overlapped into the voice frequencies. So you can't modulate it with that. And certainly wouldn't overlap with the British radio frequencies to be usable to taunt them.


And I would like to add that it also worked in reverse, and the Brits and Americans would most certainly know it. The round "Runddipol" antenna on a sub was actually used to search for transmissions from convoys and find their direction. There was the problem that the antenna was symmetrical from both sides, so you didn't really know if the signal is in that direction or in the polar opposite direction (e.g., if you found the signal at 25° bearing or 205°), but if you had more than a sub spread out you could triangulate the right location anyway.

So basically you didn't have to know that there's a foul mouthed German on the radio to know you should shut TF up when you don't actually need to transmit something. That should have been the default assumption, full time. Any time you say ANYTHING on the radio, you not only risk it being listened to, but you risk them triangulating your exact position and bearing.
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Old 20th May 2020, 01:55 AM   #43
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That's an 8,8 cm gun on your "uboot". Germans measured only rifle calibres in millimetres. If you can't be bothered to get even the correct nomenclature right then I just don't know...
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Old 20th May 2020, 03:01 AM   #44
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I guess if you have to hear yourself sounding smart without actually having anything of substance to add or object, that kind of idiocy is the best you can do, eh?
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Old 21st May 2020, 01:51 PM   #45
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Sony sold theater-bound ‘Greyhound’ to Apple for $70 million, but this deal won’t become the norm for the studio


I'm not happy about this; not only do I not have Apple TV, I don't even own an Apple device. Possibly I could borrow one; I read that some of Apple's content can be individually purchased.

Oh, and from the article:
The World War II battleship drama “Greyhound,” which cost around $50 million to make and was written by Hanks, was uprooted from its June 19 release date earlier this year due to movie theater closures.
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Old 21st May 2020, 02:19 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
Sony sold theater-bound ‘Greyhound’ to Apple for $70 million, but this deal won’t become the norm for the studio


I'm not happy about this; not only do I not have Apple TV, I don't even own an Apple device. Possibly I could borrow one; I read that some of Apple's content can be individually purchased.

Oh, and from the article:
The World War II battleship drama “Greyhound,” which cost around $50 million to make and was written by Hanks, was uprooted from its June 19 release date earlier this year due to movie theater closures.
That's annoying. I was hoping for Amazon Prime.

And that far-too-common usage of "battleship" for any dang warship at all is even more so. A pet peeve.
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Old 21st May 2020, 04:27 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
That's annoying. I was hoping for Amazon Prime.

And that far-too-common usage of "battleship" for any dang warship at all is even more so. A pet peeve.

It sure is! Everyone should know that only the ships that are four squares long are battleships.
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Old 21st May 2020, 05:36 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
It sure is! Everyone should know that only the ships that are four squares long are battleships.
I'm afraid it took me FAR too long (around 10 seconds) to get that!
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Old 21st May 2020, 10:08 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
And that far-too-common usage of "battleship" for any dang warship at all is even more so. A pet peeve.
It goes the other way too, unfortunately. I've actually heard someone on YouTube referring to the Bismarck as a destroyer. And was about as triggered as you'd expect. I blame Star Wars, really.
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Old 22nd May 2020, 02:24 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
Sony sold theater-bound ‘Greyhound’ to Apple for $70 million, but this deal won’t become the norm for the studio


I'm not happy about this; not only do I not have Apple TV, I don't even own an Apple device. Possibly I could borrow one; I read that some of Apple's content can be individually purchased.:
I do have Apple TV, as a free deal with my iPad. I opened it once, because it looks like it has lots of stuff on it, but you have to pay for most stuff on top of the subscription (Outrageously!), so I closed it never to look again. In total I think there are 12 series and 4 films which come included.

Hopefully this will be a fifth, not a PPV.
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Old 30th June 2020, 12:04 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by gypsyjackson View Post
I do have Apple TV, as a free deal with my iPad. I opened it once, because it looks like it has lots of stuff on it, but you have to pay for most stuff on top of the subscription (Outrageously!), so I closed it never to look again. In total I think there are 12 series and 4 films which come included.

Hopefully this will be a fifth, not a PPV.
Just had notification - coming out on 10 July. Still not clear if included in Apple TV+.
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Old 3rd July 2020, 10:19 AM   #52
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I guess it is just me but every time I see the title of this thread I think of what I see here:
https://www.google.ca/search?q=greyh...3DLOferEvMBFSM

(I know. It is just me.)
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Old 3rd July 2020, 12:49 PM   #53
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Additional reading material

As an aside, I just read this account of how the English developed games to train convoys in U-Boat countermeasures

https://www.amazon.com/Game-Birds-Wo...3806112&sr=8-1
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Old 4th July 2020, 09:10 AM   #54
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I had this recommended to me on YouTube this morning:

Greyhounds of the Sea - History of the U.S. Navy Destroyer

Oddly, in all my years of studying naval history, I don't ever recall having seen destroyers referred to as "greyhounds" before this year, yet the blurb implies that this is a common usage.
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Old 4th July 2020, 10:09 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
I had this recommended to me on YouTube this morning:

Greyhounds of the Sea - History of the U.S. Navy Destroyer

Oddly, in all my years of studying naval history, I don't ever recall having seen destroyers referred to as "greyhounds" before this year, yet the blurb implies that this is a common usage.
I recall reading the term applied to destroyers; lean, fast and think skinned.
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Old 4th July 2020, 11:31 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by paiute View Post
As an aside, I just read this account of how the English developed games to train convoys in U-Boat countermeasures

https://www.amazon.com/Game-Birds-Wo...3806112&sr=8-1
I think WATU was mentioned above somewhere, but the book sounds interesting. I think I'll get it.

Is the film eventually going to be available other than through Apple?
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Old 4th July 2020, 12:14 PM   #57
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Supposedly it will have a theatrical release--eventually.
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Old 5th July 2020, 07:22 AM   #58
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By coincidence, I just watched this from the excellent (in my decidedly non-expert opinion) Youtube naval historian Drachinifel:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


Some WATU's actual surviving gaming equipment is shown.
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Old 5th July 2020, 07:25 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I think WATU was mentioned above somewhere, but the book sounds interesting. I think I'll get it.

Is the film eventually going to be available other than through Apple?
It'll be on the usual sites a couple of minutes after release....
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Old 5th July 2020, 07:41 AM   #60
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Oh, and a pair of videos by him on the Russian Pacific Squadron and the Kamchatka that had me crying with laughter (bit of dark humour, actually, when you consider what happened to the fleet and that ship):
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
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and
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


Intro to the Kamchatka: "One of the most effective Japanese warships that didn't actually serve in the Japanese navy"
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Old 5th July 2020, 07:43 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
It'll be on the usual sites a couple of minutes after release....
I presume he meant legally. We all know these movies can be obtained through ... special ... sources.
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Old 5th July 2020, 07:46 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by grmcdorman View Post
By coincidence, I just watched this from the excellent (in my decidedly non-expert opinion) Youtube naval historian Drachinifel:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


Some WATU's actual surviving gaming equipment is shown.
Yes, I watched that a few days ago. I like Drach, just don't know how to pronounce him. I think he's pretty much redone all the early computer voiced videos now.
I downloaded "Game of Birds and Wolves" yesterday.
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Old 5th July 2020, 04:09 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by grmcdorman View Post
By coincidence, I just watched this from the excellent (in my decidedly non-expert opinion) Youtube naval historian Drachinifel:
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


Some WATU's actual surviving gaming equipment is shown.

I just started watching him a month or so ago; he's outstanding. I'm not sure I've seen that one yet, or possibly I fell asleep during it.
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Old 5th July 2020, 04:30 PM   #64
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Tom Hanks was on NPR's Wait Wait... Don't Tell Me!WP this weekend, although it was a rerun of a segment from a couple of months ago. I was disappointed, but not really surprised, that they didn't ask him anything about Greyhound. But it wasn't a total loss, as I got to hear him speak as Colonel Tom ParkerWP, Elvis's manager, whom Hanks had been slated to play in an upcoming movie, which is now on hold.
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Old 5th July 2020, 04:41 PM   #65
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Ah yes, the Kamchatka. Note though that it's part of a more systemic problem in Russia, and I don't even mean just the navy. Nor just the 20'th century. It's something that actually started by the end of the early middle ages.

Thing is, when everyone decided they need the land (and whoever owns it) to support a heavy cavalry force, nobles everywhere were pretty happy to just put a serf on a horse and send that dude to fight in their stead. Not only that guy wasn't some knight owning the land to support the horse and armour, he didn't even own his own freedom.

In the west there kinda was a shift towards nobility also being warriors. Well, England kinda fell back to "just pay someone to fight in your stead" the first, but there still was this notion of a distinguished military career being something the aristocracy DOES. By the 20'th century most of the west had gotten rid of having a REAL aristocracy, as in, actually having much de jure power, but there still was this notion that if you're from a noble family, you're kinda expected to put some honest effort into this military stuff. Well, at least in Germany and Austria, anyway.

Now I'm not saying they were necessarily also competent (see Von Hötzendorf for one of the top three most incompetent generals of WW1, in spite of being from an aristocratic family with a long military tradition) but at least took the whole being an officer seriously.

Japan, well, had gotten rid of the samurai caste even more recently, but there were people who still took pride in coming from a samurai family, and thought they're expected to be proper warriors. As in, a lot of them still had parents or grandparents who had been officially samurai, or thought they still are until Shiroyama in 1877.

In Russia this never happened. All the way between the middle ages and the October revolution, yeah, officer ranks went to the nobility, but it was more privilege than duty. There were whole echelons full of people who pretty much were there just to get paid for their family connections, to rock a spiffy uniform at all the fashionable balls, and not really do much else.

And they were unruly too, seein' as many had direct connections to the imperial family or higher nobility. I mean, in the start of WW1 you see a whole army corps being annihilated because the officer commanding the corps next to it wasn't speaking with the guy whose troops were annihilated. It wasn't even some breakdown in communications like occasionally happened on the western front. Just two generals hated each other and proceeded to not do anything coordinated or really anything that would involve talking to each other. But hey, when you're connected enough, who's gonna reprimand you for that, amirite?

So yeah, not entirely a huge surprise that the navy turned out to have the same problem
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Old 8th July 2020, 10:26 AM   #66
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FYI , pretty recently the AppleTV app was released on several smart TV's and devices. You might be able to install it and not even know about it. They offer a free week, so you could end up watching this movie totally free (without turning to thepiratebay etc).

Most recent Roku's and Roku TV's, some Samsung and LG smart TV's, and Amazon devices / Fire TV's. Also you can cast (airplay) to most recent Vizio TV's, but you'll need an Apple phone or tablet.

List: https://www.apple.com/apple-tv-app/devices/
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Old 8th July 2020, 02:10 PM   #67
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Thanks for that; their website says you can use any compatible web browser, so I should be able to watch it on one of my Windows or Android devices.
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Old 8th July 2020, 02:11 PM   #68
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75% Fresh so far on Rotten Tomatoes, with 59 reviews.
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Old 8th July 2020, 03:37 PM   #69
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I'm of two minds whether to watch. I'm interested, but pretty much always have problems with movies that a) I know something about the subject; and/or b) have read the source material.
As an example of a), my wife got me Air Force One because I worked at Boeing on the 747. OMG, that was excruciating. For b), Lord of the Rings. I could accept that they needed to leave some stuff out, but when they added stuff in the second film it was over the line.
A counterexample of both is Master and Commander: Far Side of the World. In this case, the plot being pretty much unrelated to the book titles was probably a good thing, and Russel Crowe got the Jack Aubrey character pretty much spot on.
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Old 9th July 2020, 11:14 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by paiute View Post
As an aside, I just read this account of how the English developed games to train convoys in U-Boat countermeasures

https://www.amazon.com/Game-Birds-Wo...3806112&sr=8-1
I read that book too!! Fantastic.

And as I was I was thinking "wouldn't this make a great movie". I don't know how well Greyhound will fit the bill, but will certainly watch it.
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Old 10th July 2020, 06:38 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
FYI , pretty recently the AppleTV app was released on several smart TV's and devices. You might be able to install it and not even know about it. They offer a free week, so you could end up watching this movie totally free (without turning to thepiratebay etc).

Most recent Roku's and Roku TV's, some Samsung and LG smart TV's, and Amazon devices / Fire TV's. Also you can cast (airplay) to most recent Vizio TV's, but you'll need an Apple phone or tablet.

List: https://www.apple.com/apple-tv-app/devices/
A year free on new iPads and iPhones.

It is part of that package, not at additional cost, which makes a total of 5 whole films available on Apple TV+ (for £5/$5 a month!). I’m downloading it now, and will report back. However it is close to my bedtime, so it won’t be tonight!
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Old 10th July 2020, 08:02 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by gypsyjackson View Post
A year free on new iPads and iPhones.

It is part of that package, not at additional cost, which makes a total of 5 whole films available on Apple TV+ (for £5/$5 a month!). I’m downloading it now, and will report back. However it is close to my bedtime, so it won’t be tonight!
They have a lot more TV shows on it than movies at present. I've watched most of them and they're mostly... OK. Theres nothing terrible and nothing really great. I have heard that Spielberg's upcoming 8th Air Force TV series will be on it. But thats probably over a year away still.
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Old 11th July 2020, 07:45 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by gypsyjackson View Post
A year free on new iPads and iPhones.

It is part of that package, not at additional cost, which makes a total of 5 whole films available on Apple TV+ (for £5/$5 a month!). I’m downloading it now, and will report back. However it is close to my bedtime, so it won’t be tonight!
Now watched. Focusing on it as a film... in brief, this film is brief. 91 minutes with long credits and a lot of logos at the start. This means a lot of action crammed into not much time. Not much character development for anyone but Hanks; not much of a beginning or a end, but a solid middle. Battle scenes tense but fairly repetitive. Brits ‘what ho, rugger, pip pip’ cliched, which is amusing to me, but might annoy others. There is a very strange flashback which doesn’t work, and there’s also a weird point where the camera pans up over the cloud line during a night battle to look at the northern lights, explosions illuminating the clouds from below
- and then we cut to the next day, with someone reporting to the captain that the convoy lost 5 ships overnight. Don’t show, tell at its best
.

Good points - it is almost entirely shot from the ‘Keeling’ which adds to the tension and uncertainty; Hanks is good, and his self-doubt is reflected well in the crew’s; it captures the retiarius-secutor style of combat reasonably well. However, I don’t think Greyhound is going to be seen as the definitive escort film, pardon the expression.

Historical accuracy - some of the concerns raised here about the trailer are addressed, like the sub-destroyer showdown where
the sub is described as unable to dive, and the reason the German crew can man their guns is that the sub is between two destroyers, one of which can’t lower its guns far enough (I know in reality there would have been options which would have shredded the top of the sub) while the other doesn’t want to risk friendly fire, there having been a bit of foreshadowing of it.
The German using the radio was pretty over the top, but how else would we know they were the bad guys?!

I’m not an expert, so wouldn’t like to comment on whether or not, say, the armaments were exactly accurate for a US Destroyer in February 1942, but a few things did strike me as a little odd. They are spoilers, so I’ll hide them:
Did U-Boots use Bold decoys that early on in the war? At one point 2 U-Boots appear to carry out a spontaneous yet coordinated attack on the Keeling. I didn’t think they would be able to do that sort of thing as there wouldn’t have been sub-sub contact in battle. Did that ever really happen? Finally, the film makes a big deal about the convoy not having air cover where they are and being x hours away from that relative safety. However, they send a single word message to the Admiralty (Help) and somehow Britain sends a solo bomber and a squadron of RN destroyers that meets them before that point. Again, was the Mid-Atlantic gap actually bridgeable if you asked nicely?
.
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Old 11th July 2020, 10:14 AM   #74
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Feb '42 seems significantly earlier than when I remember the book being set, but I'd have to look. Maybe Wikipedia can help...
... and says early 1942.
Are you seeing 40mm Bofors? To early for those, certainly. Although I think they may have appeared in the book as well.
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Old 12th July 2020, 06:50 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by gypsyjackson View Post
Historical accuracy - some of the concerns raised here about the trailer are addressed, like the sub-destroyer showdown where
the sub is described as unable to dive, and the reason the German crew can man their guns is that the sub is between two destroyers, one of which can’t lower its guns far enough (I know in reality there would have been options which would have shredded the top of the sub) while the other doesn’t want to risk friendly fire, there having been a bit of foreshadowing of it.
Unless they cut it from the actual movie, please look again at the sequence where at night an attacking U-boot sails on the surface, flank speed through the convoy, and shoots its frikken 20mm AA gun at the destroyer.

Yes, I realize that it's one way to create drama and have some casualties on the destroyer too, but historical accuracy? Honestly, it would have been just as historically accurate to have them beamed up by aliens.

Plus, what would it even hope to DO to the destroyer, by firing at the superstructure? If you absolutely had no other choice than to shoot that at a destroyer, at least shoot at the water line or something. Yeah, if you get a good perpendicular hit, you might penetrate a Mahan's hull. But just risk your ship for the sake of killing a couple of sailors? WHY? For the love of boobies, WHY?

Originally Posted by gypsyjackson View Post
The German using the radio was pretty over the top, but how else would we know they were the bad guys?!
I'm pretty sure that they could have had all the tension they wanted by just having them find the subs on the sonar, or intercepting a nearby transmission to the Kriegsmarine (even if you can't decode it, you might not be constipated any time soon), or just cut away to show a smug sub captain say "I wish them luck surviving the night" to his nearby crew. Or a number of other options.

Getting your sub stuck on the surface (again, you couldn't dive with the cables going through the hatch) just to... lose the element of surprise that way is just incredibly stupid.

Plus, the way it's done, it ALSO just makes you wonder if the Greyhound's sonar operator had served previously on the Kamchatka I mean, nothing on the sonar, not a peep, until the German guy's transmission comes. And then the captain personally turns the right knob and they're all visible. Err... really? Was the normal sonar operator that completely incompetent?

And I'm even skipping past other historical problems, like that the wolfpack was (A) having some INCREDIBLE number of subs all having met to attack the same convoy, assuming that's what those blips are, and (B) decided to all attack from the same side, instead of the historical tactics of basically cross-torping through the convoy from different directions.

Really, regardless of what the literary purpose of it was, it's stupid. Having a goal is good and fine, but if the means towards it are stupid, they're stupid and that's that.


Originally Posted by gypsyjackson View Post
I’m not an expert, so wouldn’t like to comment on whether or not, say, the armaments were exactly accurate for a US Destroyer in February 1942, but a few things did strike me as a little odd. They are spoilers, so I’ll hide them:
Did U-Boots use Bold decoys that early on in the war? At one point 2 U-Boots appear to carry out a spontaneous yet coordinated attack on the Keeling. I didn’t think they would be able to do that sort of thing as there wouldn’t have been sub-sub contact in battle. Did that ever really happen? Finally, the film makes a big deal about the convoy not having air cover where they are and being x hours away from that relative safety. However, they send a single word message to the Admiralty (Help) and somehow Britain sends a solo bomber and a squadron of RN destroyers that meets them before that point. Again, was the Mid-Atlantic gap actually bridgeable if you asked nicely?
.
Basically you're right on all accounts. Well, BOLD did get introduced in 1942, but I can't find an exact date, and I doubt it would be on every single sub from the get-go.
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Old 12th July 2020, 12:07 PM   #76
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Watched it last night on the free trial.
Very enjoyable, with a terrific performance from Hanks... Lots and lots of rapid-fire delivery of orders to all personnel.
Regardless of any historical glitches, the movie portrayed the extreme danger of the War In the Atlantic very well, and Hanks’ character, apparently a strongly religious fellow, torn over the deaths on both sides.
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Old 12th July 2020, 06:15 PM   #77
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Also, speaking of historical accuracy, I would somewhat question the decision to use a Fletcher class, if it's supposed to be February 1942. The first Fletcher didn't even get commissioned until the 4th of June 1942.

And honestly, if it's any point in 1942, I doubt that they'd give one of the few newest and best destroyers to some random nobody. He'd probably get a Mahan.

But I suppose it's one of the lesser and more forgivable "sins", since most viewers wouldn't even recognize that if it has the closed turrets it's a Fletcher. In fact, probably best that they could actually film on one, instead of using some crappy green screen.
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Old 13th July 2020, 12:45 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Feb '42 seems significantly earlier than when I remember the book being set, but I'd have to look. Maybe Wikipedia can help...
... and says early 1942.
Are you seeing 40mm Bofors? To early for those, certainly. Although I think they may have appeared in the book as well.
Because of the lack of air defence, I didn’t notice. I suspect that they just had the armament present on Kidd as preserved, rather than trying to CGI in replacements.

Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Unless they cut it from the actual movie, please look again at the sequence where at night an attacking U-boot sails on the surface, flank speed through the convoy, and shoots its frikken 20mm AA gun at the destroyer.
I think they cut that. I just scan watched the night sequences and didn’t see that, though I could have missed it (again!). The only gun use by U-Boot was as mentioned before.

Quote:
I'm pretty sure that they could have had all the tension they wanted by just having them find the subs on the sonar, or intercepting a nearby transmission to the Kriegsmarine (even if you can't decode it, you might not be constipated any time soon...
Plus, the way it's done, it ALSO just makes you wonder if the Greyhound's sonar operator had served previously on the Kamchatka I mean, nothing on the sonar, not a peep, until the German guy's transmission comes. And then the captain personally turns the right knob and they're all visible. Err... really? Was the normal sonar operator that completely incompetent?
Forgive me for abridging the quote; I will restore if you prefer.

It was purely cinematic - suddenly six U-Boots turned off their Klingon tech to be seen by all four escorts at once - but I think we can let them have that. Although, each being spotted in turn over a few screen minutes might have built tension a bit better. But how many Oscars do I have?

Seven in a Wolfpack (including the one which made initial contact) wouldn’t have been totally unreasonable, although they probably would have taken hours or even a day or two to all reach the same point.

Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Also, speaking of historical accuracy, I would somewhat question the decision to use a Fletcher class, if it's supposed to be February 1942...

But I suppose it's one of the lesser and more forgivable "sins", since most viewers wouldn't even recognize that if it has the closed turrets it's a Fletcher. In fact, probably best that they could actually film on one, instead of using some crappy green screen.
Yeah, I think that’s ok too - are there any other surviving US Battle of the Atlantic destroyers?
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Old 13th July 2020, 05:10 AM   #79
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Well, I was only going by how many blips there were, since that's the only info I had in the trailer. And that looked more like over a dozen subs. Which would be one hell of a wolfpack.
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