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Tags animal incidents , coyotes , New Jersey incidents

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Old 6th October 2019, 05:40 PM   #1
kookbreaker
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The Coyotes of Ramapo

Well, suburban life is clashing with feral wildlife as two Coyote attacks happened at a park in Ramapo, NJ, one of a woman, one on a dog. The park was cleared, closed, and police are patrolling the park.

I've seen some speculate that these may not be pure Coyotes but are ones interbred with Wolves, Wild Dogs, etc, which allegedly can be more aggressive.
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Old 6th October 2019, 06:40 PM   #2
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Rabies rabies
It's a possibility
Coyotes half crazy
Always a concern to me
It won't be a pleasant visit
To the doctor's office you need it
But you'll be safe in a couple days
Rabies prophylaxis is for you.

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Old 6th October 2019, 07:49 PM   #3
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The coyotes here in southeastern Massachusetts have significantly increased in size in the last couple generations. I've been within ten feet of them on a couple of occasions, not in full daylight but in dusk with good visibility, so I've gotten pretty good looks at them. So has my wife and several neighbors, and they've all seen the same change.

Interbreeding is certainly a possibility. There haven't been any attacks around here yet, though.
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Old 7th October 2019, 12:38 AM   #4
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That particular park is pretty big and wild; I used to dirt bike there as a teen. That said, I never saw a coyote there. I see them quite commonly where I live now; all you have to do is go out around 1:00 in the morning.
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Old 7th October 2019, 05:11 AM   #5
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My understanding is, they aren't all that dangerous until the ACME catalog and credit card arrives.
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Old 7th October 2019, 07:02 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Interbreeding is certainly a possibility.
They could only be interbreeding with dogs. There are no wild wolves in Massachusetts or New Jersey.
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Old 7th October 2019, 07:09 AM   #7
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Is it pronounced coy-oat or coy-o-tee over there?
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Old 7th October 2019, 07:14 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Is it pronounced coy-oat or coy-o-tee over there?
Either pronunciation is acceptable, but one may be locally more common.
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Old 7th October 2019, 11:19 AM   #9
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I'm from Montana. Ky-Ote. Oh, and that large cat is a Mountain Lion.
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Old 7th October 2019, 11:40 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Well, suburban life is clashing with feral wildlife as two Coyote attacks happened at a park in Ramapo, NJ, one of a woman, one on a dog. The park was cleared, closed, and police are patrolling the park.

I've seen some speculate that these may not be pure Coyotes but are ones interbred with Wolves, Wild Dogs, etc, which allegedly can be more aggressive.
not necessarily, we have coy wolves locally also (they are a thing), seem less afraid of humans, not necessarily more aggressive.
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Old 7th October 2019, 11:41 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
The coyotes here in southeastern Massachusetts have significantly increased in size in the last couple generations. I've been within ten feet of them on a couple of occasions, not in full daylight but in dusk with good visibility, so I've gotten pretty good looks at them. So has my wife and several neighbors, and they've all seen the same change.

Interbreeding is certainly a possibility. There haven't been any attacks around here yet, though.
same area, the ones with a shorter and bushier tail, and bigger neck/head are the hybridized ones.
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Old 7th October 2019, 11:43 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
They could only be interbreeding with dogs. There are no wild wolves in Massachusetts or New Jersey.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_wolf

timber wolves no, red wolves yes, slow being phased out by you guessed it,, interbreeding. Wiki says SE US, they have a wider range, like several other animals, notably black bears. Some argue Cougars as well.
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Old 7th October 2019, 11:46 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
Is it pronounced coy-oat or coy-o-tee over there?
The Phoenix hockey team pronounces it Coy-o-tee. I've often wondered if it isn't the somewhat surname of Don Quixote (generally pronounced Key-o-tee) that has led to the confusion.
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Old 7th October 2019, 01:44 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
timber wolves no, red wolves yes,
There are no wild red wolves in Massachusetts or New Jersey.
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Old 7th October 2019, 02:28 PM   #15
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Aruba, Jamaica, oh I want to take you to
Bermuda, Bahama, come on pretty mama
Key Largo, Montego, baby why don't we go

That's how they always roll, the coyotes of Ramapo
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Old 8th October 2019, 04:49 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
There are no wild red wolves in Massachusetts or New Jersey.
Based on what? Hiking there often, you would be wrong. The hybrids at least are increasingly numerous and it's not domestic dog doing it, if at all its a minority of the mix.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coywolf

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Old 8th October 2019, 05:16 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
Based on what? Hiking there often, you would be wrong. The hybrids at least are increasingly numerous and it's not domestic dog doing it, if at all its a minority of the mix.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coywolf
Domestic dogs can't hang.

"You can't get with her, dude. She'll eat you for lunch. She runs with the wolves."
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Old 8th October 2019, 06:18 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_wolf

timber wolves no, red wolves yes, slow being phased out by you guessed it,, interbreeding. Wiki says SE US, they have a wider range, like several other animals, notably black bears. Some argue Cougars as well.
What is the current range of red wolves? Seems like its limited to about 200 individuals, mostly in captivity. Seems unlikely that there is significant hybridization between coyotes and wolves of any kind in NJ. Grey wolves might even be more likely than red wolves.

Edit, the wiki you linked to indicates Eastern coyotes appear to be mostly hybrids of eastern wolves and coyotes with some minor dog admixture and that eastern wolves and red wolves are probably hybrids of wolves and coyotes to begin with.
This is debated due to to some issues with the sample genomes used.

Mildly amusing regardless on account that red wolves may just be a hybrid between coyotes and wolves in the first place.

Aside from that, is there any evidence other than anecdote that the local coyotes are bigger lately? Also, two attacks, is not much of a trend.

Edit to add, are they really different species? Seems like dogs, wolves, and coyotes can all interbreed to produce fertile young. Seems more accurate to describe them all as subspecies.

Last edited by ahhell; 8th October 2019 at 06:27 AM.
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Old 8th October 2019, 06:56 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
What is the current range of red wolves? Seems like its limited to about 200 individuals, mostly in captivity. Seems unlikely that there is significant hybridization between coyotes and wolves of any kind in NJ. Grey wolves might even be more likely than red wolves.

Edit, the wiki you linked to indicates Eastern coyotes appear to be mostly hybrids of eastern wolves and coyotes with some minor dog admixture and that eastern wolves and red wolves are probably hybrids of wolves and coyotes to begin with.
This is debated due to to some issues with the sample genomes used.

Mildly amusing regardless on account that red wolves may just be a hybrid between coyotes and wolves in the first place.

Aside from that, is there any evidence other than anecdote that the local coyotes are bigger lately? Also, two attacks, is not much of a trend.

Edit to add, are they really different species? Seems like dogs, wolves, and coyotes can all interbreed to produce fertile young. Seems more accurate to describe them all as subspecies.
sorta the point, they are sorta thought to be a hybridization as well, so it's not so cut and dry, the lines between the species have pretty blended that coyote-red wolf-coywolf and coydog are very blurry. The major take away is the eastern coyotes are basically genetic sluts and they are/have hybridized into a slightly different animal.

I've seen them up close and they are slightly bigger/different looking than a run of the mill coyote. To just declare there are none here, is very black and white and wrong. The whole thing is genetically blurry at this point.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coydog

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Old 8th October 2019, 12:11 PM   #20
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And the First Immigrants had dogs when the Europeans got here. Plenty of time for interbreeding.
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Old 9th October 2019, 06:17 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
And the First Immigrants had dogs when the Europeans got here. Plenty of time for interbreeding.
Native American's had dogs when they got here 10k+ years ago.

Anyrate, coydog is much more likely than coywolf on account of dogs being ubiquitous in N. American and wolves having been nearly driven to extinction. Its why you have coyotes in N. Jersey. Even with the understanding that there has been interbreeding between the three for roughly 10k+ years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote..._by_decade.jpg

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Old 9th October 2019, 09:32 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
Native American's had dogs when they got here 10k+ years ago.

Anyrate, coydog is much more likely than coywolf on account of dogs being ubiquitous in N. American and wolves having been nearly driven to extinction. Its why you have coyotes in N. Jersey. Even with the understanding that there has been interbreeding between the three for roughly 10k+ years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coyote..._by_decade.jpg
More on the subject: It's not just dogs they're hybridizing with, it's all 3, yote/wolf/dog in various mixes, which is why I oppose such a black and white take on it, it's murkier than that and likely short term evolution occurring under own nose, minimally interesting as a case of adaption.

https://www.businessinsider.com/imag...theast-2015-10

https://nywolf.org/wp-content/upload...y-and-Lynn.pdf

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart...ica-180957141/
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Old 9th October 2019, 09:36 AM   #23
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Quote from the Smithsonian Article: "People living in Eastern Canada and U.S. are probably familiar with the smart, adaptable wild canine that lives in their forests, neighborhood parks and even cities. What they may not know is that eastern coyotes aren’t true coyotes at all. They might better be known as hybrids, or coywolves. As deforestation, hunting and poisoning depleted the population numbers of eastern wolves, they interbred with western coyotes. A report from PBS writes that the first eastern coyote or coywolf appeared around 1919 in Ontario, Canada. Today, wolf DNA has popped up in "coyote" poop as far south as Virginia.

The hybrid, or Canis latrans var., is about 55 pounds heavier than pure coyotes, with longer legs, a larger jaw, smaller ears and a bushier tail. It is part eastern wolf, part wester wolf, western coyote and with some dog (large breeds like Doberman Pinschers and German Shepherds), reports The Economist. Coywolves today are on average a quarter wolf and a tenth dog.

That blend helps make the hybrid so successful that it now numbers in the millions, Roland Kays of North Carolina State University tells The Economist. The reporter writes: Coyotes dislike hunting in forests. Wolves prefer it. Interbreeding has produced an animal skilled at catching prey in both open terrain and densely wooded areas, says Dr Kays. And even their cries blend those of their ancestors. The first part of a howl resembles a wolf’s (with a deep pitch), but this then turns into a higher-pitched, coyote-like yipping.

The dog DNA might even include some tolerance for the noise of cities. At least 20 now live in New York City, and others have been spotted in Washington D.C., Boston and Philidelphia, reports Michael Tanenbaum for the Philly Voice.

While the fact that coywolves can still breed with wolves and dogs means it doesn’t quite fit the definition of a new species (for some), that may change. Coywolves are telling an "amazing contemporary evolution story that’s happening right underneath our nose," Kays tells The Economist. Someday, they may unambiguously be another species, but for now coywolves are enjoying the advantages of hybrid vigor."
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Old 9th October 2019, 11:03 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
While the fact that coywolves can still breed with wolves and dogs means it doesnít quite fit the definition of a new species (for some), that may change. Coywolves are telling an "amazing contemporary evolution story thatís happening right underneath our nose," Kays tells The Economist. Someday, they may unambiguously be another species, but for now coywolves are enjoying the advantages of hybrid vigor."
You've largely made your case, I'd argue its a bit more nuanced than implied at first but that's how conversation works. So, eastern coyotes clearly have more wolf than western coyotes, seems more dog too but less dog than wolf.

I doubt there will be speciation anytime soon though, given that its moot whether coyotes are a different species from wolves and dogs in the first place.
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Old 9th October 2019, 11:26 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
You've largely made your case, I'd argue its a bit more nuanced than implied at first but that's how conversation works. So, eastern coyotes clearly have more wolf than western coyotes, seems more dog too but less dog than wolf.

I doubt there will be speciation anytime soon though, given that its moot whether coyotes are a different species from wolves and dogs in the first place.
It seems the wolf mixing was earlier on, dog more recently, but it's all three in the mix at this point. To the point of them being common in the Northeast, having almost hit one with my car last November I would agree.
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Old 9th October 2019, 11:42 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
The coyotes here in southeastern Massachusetts have significantly increased in size in the last couple generations. I've been within ten feet of them on a couple of occasions, not in full daylight but in dusk with good visibility, so I've gotten pretty good looks at them. So has my wife and several neighbors, and they've all seen the same change.

Interbreeding is certainly a possibility. There haven't been any attacks around here yet, though.
I'm south of Boston. I haven't noticed any change in size but I have seen coyotes around here only six years or so. Are you thinking longer term than that?
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Old 9th October 2019, 11:51 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I'm south of Boston. I haven't noticed any change in size but I have seen coyotes around here only six years or so. Are you thinking longer term than that?
You probably have them, we have both where I am, though Coywolves seem further north but there is a subtle difference in appearance as well as a size difference. Coywolves seem to have a thick neck and muzzle, and a shorter, tail. Long term is likely, with wolf intermixing sounding like less recent than dog but over more time it seems.

A thing to bear in mind is animal populations don't seem to stay still. I've seen a federal map claiming the natural range of the black bear ends in New Hampshire, the bear population is south of Massachusetts and increasing. My point being much of this interbreeding over time seems to have taken place over a large region, so claims like there are no wild wolves in Jersey aren't relevant, the process of interbreeding didn't have to happen there, the aftereffects have moved regardless.

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Old 9th October 2019, 12:34 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
so claims like there are no wild wolves in Jersey aren't relevant
It is a fact that there are no wild wolves in New Jersey or Massachusetts.

The reason that I keep repeating this is because we have a big audience here and things that you have said could mislead people into thinking that there actually are wild wolves in New Jersey and/or Massachusetts.
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Old 9th October 2019, 09:20 PM   #29
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Neutering the male pets might be part of it. If somebody has a bitch in heat the mostly likely loose partner is a coyote. So I see several coy/dog pets. One looks half Chihuahua. When your pet drops a litter, tose are raised as tame pets.

Flip side is the the coyote bitches only have coyotes to mate with, so the wild ones I see on the city streets look pure bred. I'm in urban San Diego.

San Diego has canyons, historically too steep to build on. Fingers of them protrude into the city core. They are sage brush enclaves of wilderness. Coyotes, rabbits, raccoons, bob cats...

And we have become too citified. No more BB guns in the back yard, no more tying your 22 rifle to your bicycle and pedaling out to the fringe hoping to bring home a rabbit. Or taking pot shots at the coyotes, which learned to avoid people-and cities. And the crows have taken over the skies. Seasonal flocking of maybe 300 at once.

Offsetting though is the flock of parrots. Breeding from escapees, the green and red ones with the occasional big blue one.
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Old 10th October 2019, 03:39 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
It is a fact that there are no wild wolves in New Jersey or Massachusetts.

The reason that I keep repeating this is because we have a big audience here and things that you have said could mislead people into thinking that there actually are wild wolves in New Jersey and/or Massachusetts.
There was nothing misleading in what I said, in fact backed up by a multitude of articles. Your point true or not is irrelevant. What's called a Coyote in the Northeast is open to interpretation due to the multiple of influences on the gene pool in question. Like it or not there's Wolf DNA in the mix and has been there for some time, and whether or not you feel a particular species in a given state or not has nothing to with the subject.

You categorically stated that the Coyotes could only be intermixing with dogs, that is patently untrue and proven so if you read the attached articles. The situation is not black and white.
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Old 10th October 2019, 04:39 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I'm south of Boston. I haven't noticed any change in size but I have seen coyotes around here only six years or so. Are you thinking longer term than that?

A little longer term, yes. I'm comparing coyotes that we saw and heard rather rarely circa 2001, with the larger and more numerous (or at least, more frequently visible/audible) ones seen this past year. This is on the MA south coast. But we weren't living here during most of the interval in between.

The neighbors are talking about a similar time scale. I said "generations" to refer to the number of animal generations likely over an about 20 year period. The articles are saying the hybridization has been going on for a century, but 20 years and up to half a dozen generations of animals is enough time for a new variant of the mix to become prevalent in the region, or for one "tribe" of smaller hybrids (perhaps, back then, living in relative isolation in the pine barrens here) to have been replaced by a wider-ranging and larger-bodied one.

In any case, the descriptions of present day coywolves in the articles matches perfectly with what we've seen and heard recently. Right down to the howl/bark/yip hybrid cry, which when we first heard it had us thinking that the neighborhood dogs were joining in with the pack.
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Old 10th October 2019, 05:54 AM   #32
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Here is a current range map for both species of wolf in North America. They are a considerable distance from Massachusetts and New Jersey.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg NorthAmericaWolfRange.jpg (112.4 KB, 12 views)
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Old 10th October 2019, 06:02 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Here is a current range map for both species of wolf in North America. They are a considerable distance from Massachusetts and New Jersey.
at first with that map I didn't notice that red hatching only means "suitable habitat" -- on my screen the words explaining it are small.

The only red wolf is that small red dot in one state, it appears.
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Old 10th October 2019, 06:07 AM   #34
rockysmith76
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Here is a current range map for both species of wolf in North America. They are a considerable distance from Massachusetts and New Jersey.
the subject is Coyotes/Coy wolves, not wolves. And if you read one if the articles it indicated the red wolf to be a hybridization itself.

Those lovely range maps aren't accurate over time as animal populations are static, they move around, over time. I used black bears as an example already.

NO one is saying there are wolves in either state, but Coy wolves are.
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Old 10th October 2019, 06:10 AM   #35
William Parcher
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
There was nothing misleading in what I said, in fact backed up by a multitude of articles.
You were very misleading and I will show it again here...

Originally Posted by Parcher
There are no wild wolves in Massachusetts or New Jersey.
Originally Posted by Rocky
timber wolves no, red wolves yes

Originally Posted by Parcher
There are no wild red wolves in Massachusetts or New Jersey.
Originally Posted by Rocky
Based on what? Hiking there often, you would be wrong.

It is quite obvious that you are arguing for the existence of red wolves in Massachusetts and New Jersey. That is misleading because it is wrong.
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Old 10th October 2019, 06:26 AM   #36
William Parcher
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Originally Posted by rockysmith76 View Post
the subject is Coyotes/Coy wolves, not wolves...

...NO one is saying there are wolves in either state, but Coy wolves are.
You did say that red wolves exist in Massachusetts and New Jersey. That is misleading because it is wrong. I showed your misleading statements about wild red wolves above. Here is more of the same misleading information from you...

Originally Posted by Parcher
There are no wild wolves in Massachusetts or New Jersey.
Originally Posted by Rocky
timber wolves no, red wolves yes, slow being phased out by you guessed it,, interbreeding.
In order for the red wolf to "slowly be phased out of Massachusetts and New Jersey by interbreeding" the red wolf has to currently be there. The red wolf isn't there - so it's wrong and misleading to say that it is being "phased out" there.
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Old 10th October 2019, 06:46 AM   #37
rockysmith76
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
You did say that red wolves exist in Massachusetts and New Jersey. That is misleading because it is wrong. I showed your misleading statements about wild red wolves above. Here is more of the same misleading information from you...




In order for the red wolf to "slowly be phased out of Massachusetts and New Jersey by interbreeding" the red wolf has to currently be there. The red wolf isn't there - so it's wrong and misleading to say that it is being "phased out" there.
as far as being "in the gene pool" they are in the mix which is what i meant, and reinforced with the articles. Maybe stop polluting a discussion on an interesting subject by trying to paint things black and white. The whole back drop is a century of interbreeding, not what you're obsessing on. Coywolves have that DNA in their mix regardless of any given State as they, coywolves have a large northeastern range.

We're talking about the greater Northeast and a century of time, so its not that cut and dry, a lot has shifted over that time and area.
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Old 10th October 2019, 06:49 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
My understanding is, they aren't all that dangerous until the ACME catalog and credit card arrives.
I think they become less dangerous at that point... at least to everyone but themselves.
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Old 10th October 2019, 07:09 AM   #39
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I hadn't given it any thought before but red wolves in Massachusetts is now definitely part of my head canon. I'm sure this will come back to bite me some day.
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Old 10th October 2019, 07:15 AM   #40
rockysmith76
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I think they become less dangerous at that point... at least to everyone but themselves.
NEVER buy the earthquake pills...;
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