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Old 21st September 2019, 01:37 AM   #1
Squeegee Beckenheim
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Brexit: Now What? 9 Below Zero

FWIW, part of May's Withdrawal Agreement is that during the transition period the backstop can be replaced with something else - if something legal, workable, and better is brought to the table.


Mod InfoThread continued from here.

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Old 21st September 2019, 01:59 AM   #2
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https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1175316645700653056

Quote:
NEW: EU flat out rejects Boris Johnson's initial Brexit proposals

European officials say the UK ideas presented this week should be “openly and clearly discarded”, according to diplomatic note seen by @AlbertoNardelli
Article embedded in tweet.
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Old 21st September 2019, 02:52 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Quelle surprise!
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Old 21st September 2019, 03:17 AM   #4
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Meanwhile, Labour is continuing their infighting ahead of the conference. The leader of Momentum filed a last-minute motion last night, calling for the abolition of the post of Deputy leader, a post currently held by the strongly pro-Remain Tom Watson.

Watson has been a bit of a thorn in Corbyn's side as of late, with repeated calls for Labour to back remain, as opposed to Corbyn's tactic of demurring on taking a position.
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Old 21st September 2019, 03:20 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by KDLarsen View Post
Meanwhile, Labour is continuing their infighting ahead of the conference. The leader of Momentum filed a last-minute motion last night, calling for the abolition of the post of Deputy leader, a post currently held by the strongly pro-Remain Tom Watson.

Watson has been a bit of a thorn in Corbyn's side as of late, with repeated calls for Labour to back remain, as opposed to Corbyn's tactic of demurring on taking a position.
One of the sad thing for me is seeing how quickly the seeds of co-operation and joint working in the opposition have disintegrated when an election was thrown to them.

Sad really that they have all reverted to fighting amongst themselves and each other rather than opposing the Tories.
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Old 21st September 2019, 03:36 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by KDLarsen View Post
Meanwhile, Labour is continuing their infighting ahead of the conference. The leader of Momentum filed a last-minute motion last night, calling for the abolition of the post of Deputy leader, a post currently held by the strongly pro-Remain Tom Watson.

Watson has been a bit of a thorn in Corbyn's side as of late, with repeated calls for Labour to back remain, as opposed to Corbyn's tactic of demurring on taking a position.
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1175339411409690624

Quote:
BREAKING: Understand Momentum withdrawing motion to get rid of Tom Watson position.

Looks like he's safe for now.
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Old 21st September 2019, 03:37 AM   #7
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But, yes, Labour have really perfected the art of scoring own-goals over the last few years, haven't they? They could probably have run away with the last election if they'd just been, well, basically competent.
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Old 21st September 2019, 03:38 AM   #8
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The membership voted for Watson and the cabal tries to abolish the Post. With no reference to membership. Some democratic party this is.
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Old 21st September 2019, 03:42 AM   #9
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https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1175352839339687936

Quote:
NEW: Got hands on NEC draft statement on Brexit
- Lab govt secure leave deal with EU within 3 months. Refendum within 6 months
- Deal = CU, close rel with single market (End of freedom movement)
- Lab decide how to campaign in ref AFTER GE (via one-day special conference)
Document embedded in tweet.
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Old 21st September 2019, 06:09 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Changing something your client is already happy with simply because you have time to do so is stupid a waste of time and potentially counterproductive.
That is why you only change it if further investigation bears fruit.

But it is quite hard to conclude that the deal could not benefit from a single Pareto improvement.
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Old 21st September 2019, 06:15 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
But, yes, Labour have really perfected the art of scoring own-goals over the last few years, haven't they? They could probably have run away with the last election if they'd just been, well, basically competent.
The only time Labour was credible as a party in government since the late 1970s, was (incredibly) under Blair. Think of other ineffective Labour Leaders; Foot, Kinnock, Brown and the wrong Miliband. John Smith was a credible leader, but his sudden death meant the first of a couple of caretaker leaders.
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Old 21st September 2019, 08:07 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
FWIW, part of May's Withdrawal Agreement is that during the transition period the backstop can be replaced with something else - if something legal, workable, and better is brought to the table.
Because the RoI and EU sensibly don't trust the UK.
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Old 21st September 2019, 08:11 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
That's interesting, has Corbyn bought off Lansman I wonder?
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Old 21st September 2019, 01:47 PM   #14
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Looks like Labour is possibly more divided than the Tories;

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...o-brexit-chaos

"Jeremy Corbyn was struggling to contain an open revolt by some of his most senior shadow ministers, MPs and party activists on Saturday night as anger over his refusal to back a policy of remaining in the EU threatened to wreck the Labour conference."
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Old 21st September 2019, 04:24 PM   #15
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It's tragic that when they have an opportunity like they have not had for years, Labor has such crappy leadership.
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Old 21st September 2019, 04:47 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
It's tragic that when they have an opportunity like they have not had for years, Labor has such crappy leadership.
Kind of like the US Democrats.
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Old 21st September 2019, 05:58 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Kind of like the US Democrats.
Oh, touche!
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Old 21st September 2019, 06:00 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
But, yes, Labour have really perfected the art of scoring own-goals over the last few years, haven't they? They could probably have run away with the last election if they'd just been, well, basically competent.
Everyone else in the UK is fighting amongst themselves. Why not Labour?
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Old 21st September 2019, 07:24 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
It's tragic that when they have an opportunity like they have not had for years, Labor has such crappy leadership.
Kind of similar to the US.
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Old 21st September 2019, 07:34 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
It's tragic that when they have an opportunity like they have not had for years, Labor has such crappy leadership.
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Kind of like the US Democrats.
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Oh, touche!
Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Kind of similar to the US.
Beat you to that one!
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Old 21st September 2019, 09:15 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
Beat you to that one!
I think the Dems have a couple of decent candidates;whterh they will be the ones who win the nomination is another story.
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Old 22nd September 2019, 02:34 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I think the Dems have a couple of decent candidates;whterh they will be the ones who win the nomination is another story.
Elizabeth Warren warm favourite on Ladbrokes and democrats favourite to win on Ladbrokes
Welcome a very white female US president.
Boris Johnson disgusts this everywoman. Good luck Boris.
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Old 22nd September 2019, 04:13 AM   #23
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Juncker has made it clear that there will be a border in Ireland in the event of no deal today. Which puts paid to the 'Eu won't put a border there' crew, or at least it should but of course it won't because they will just keep lying because that's what liars do.
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Old 22nd September 2019, 04:33 AM   #24
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Article on why legal experts tend to think that the Supreme Court ruling will go against the government
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Old 22nd September 2019, 06:29 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Juncker has made it clear that there will be a border in Ireland in the event of no deal today. Which puts paid to the 'Eu won't put a border there' crew, or at least it should but of course it won't because they will just keep lying because that's what liars do.
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I AGREE


ETA: Yes, he confirms that here.

However, just to go back to something that was said before in the FT about Boris and the "penny dropping"; Juncker says that was incorrect, and it was not a case of Boris learning about the single market for the first time or whatever other very basic point made Johnson sound ridiculous.

I mean, I am sure most of us still find Johnson ridiculous, but Juncker is explaining it is not quite the same scrape-your-jaw-off-the-floor level of ignorance that it appeared to have been in the FT.
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Last edited by angrysoba; 22nd September 2019 at 06:34 AM.
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Old 22nd September 2019, 08:10 AM   #26
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Seeing rumours that there's a major scandal about to break about Johnson. "Career ending", supposedly.
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Old 22nd September 2019, 08:14 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Looks like Labour is possibly more divided than the Tories;

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...o-brexit-chaos

"Jeremy Corbyn was struggling to contain an open revolt by some of his most senior shadow ministers, MPs and party activists on Saturday night as anger over his refusal to back a policy of remaining in the EU threatened to wreck the Labour conference."
I think Corbyn has never really changed his mind about how leaving the EU would be a good thing. He only wants to turn the UK into a socialist utopia, where coal mines and steel mills are kept running no matter what, and there's no unemployment because all industry is subsidised by the state.
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Old 22nd September 2019, 09:02 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Seeing rumours that there's a major scandal about to break about Johnson. "Career ending", supposedly.
Another one?
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Old 22nd September 2019, 09:05 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Another one?
I know. Given what his role model Trump has managed to shake off, I'm trying not to get my hopes up.
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Old 22nd September 2019, 09:15 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Seeing rumours that there's a major scandal about to break about Johnson. "Career ending", supposedly.
https://twitter.com/nicktolhurst/sta...01716240601091

Quote:
The Jennifer Arcuri corruption & sex for Boris Johnson scandal is actually far worse than originally reported.

In essence Boris Johnson got the UK govt to finance a scam which siphoned off taxpayer's money to fund his young foreign girlfriend.

Illeagal & blackmail vulnerable.

2/

Dont foll yourselves thinking that this is a typical "dodgy British sex scandal"

1. Its illeagal
2. Its the sort of thing that enemy intelligence agencies love, as it enables politicians to be blackmailed easily. Johnson was clearly a future PM candidate at the time..

3/ Just to clarify im nor suggesting Jennifer Arcuri is a plant/honey trap.

What Im saying is that Johnson will almost certainly have been tracked by various agencies at the time as future potential PM. His lack of judgement is a severe security risk.

Incredible really.

It should also be noted that of course at the time of the scandal Boris Johnson was married and sharing family home with wife & children.

The potential for blackmail - both political & financial - is incredible from so many different agencies, angles.
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1175708136642097152

Quote:
For legal/decency reasons Im confining my comments on the Arcuri/Boris Johnson scandal to [above] thread.

I fully expect information to break in next 48hours which casts a different light on the nature of Ms Arcuri's lifestyle.

Basically every journo in London knows this by now.
Intriguing. If Johnson is acting under blackmail from a foreign power, then that could be an absolutely massive scandal. Mind you, Trump's managed to bluster his way through exactly the same things, so who knows if it would actually damage Johnson or Brexit?

And that's assuming it has anything to do with Brexit at all. Or, indeed, is true at all.
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Old 22nd September 2019, 10:40 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Seeing rumours that there's a major scandal about to break about Johnson. "Career ending", supposedly.
This the public money that was awarded to his fancy piece?
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Old 22nd September 2019, 10:48 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
This the public money that was awarded to his fancy piece?
Possibly, but that was already out there when the rumours started circulating so if so, there's more to come on that story.
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Old 22nd September 2019, 11:02 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
This the public money that was awarded to his fancy piece?
According to the tweets I quoted in my post above, it may be connected to that story, but concerned with details that are not yet public.
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Old 22nd September 2019, 11:10 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Well, the little episode is something many Brits would like to forget.....
You flatter yourselves. We have well over a thousand of years of history to choose from, and the minutiae of some side-shows to the bigger story just don't have much significance.

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Old 22nd September 2019, 12:44 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
https://twitter.com/nicktolhurst/sta...01716240601091



https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1175708136642097152



Intriguing. If Johnson is acting under blackmail from a foreign power, then that could be an absolutely massive scandal. Mind you, Trump's managed to bluster his way through exactly the same things, so who knows if it would actually damage Johnson or Brexit?

And that's assuming it has anything to do with Brexit at all. Or, indeed, is true at all.

Depressingly, I think anyone who supports Boris Johnson with what we already know about him is pretty much impervious to scandal.
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Old 22nd September 2019, 07:38 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Seeing rumours that there's a major scandal about to break about Johnson. "Career ending", supposedly.
How many times had Trump had a career ending scandal?
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

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Old 22nd September 2019, 07:40 PM   #37
dudalb
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Depressingly, I think anyone who supports Boris Johnson with what we already know about him is pretty much impervious to scandal.
I get the impression that Bojo supporters are pretty much interchangable with Trump supporters.
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
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Old 22nd September 2019, 07:41 PM   #38
dudalb
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
You flatter yourselves. We have well over a thousand of years of history to choose from, and the minutiae of some side-shows to the bigger story just don't have much significance.
Boy, you really hate the US, don't you?
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
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Old 22nd September 2019, 11:02 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Seeing rumours that there's a major scandal about to break about Johnson. "Career ending", supposedly.
Well, the Supreme Court mainly debated about how to deal with an illegal prorogation. It didn't debate much whether the government had a case or not, it clearly misled the queen. They must treat carefully, because this will be a precendens by which the country will run from here on. They're basically writing down a moment in constitutional history. It is a solemn occasion, what they do today (or later this week) may be taught to children in the civic class a century from now, as one of the constitutional foundations on which British democracy (or otherwise) stands.

The only proper way to go is to declare BJ guilty of lying to the queen and order his immediate arrest and trial for misconduct in public office (his guilt is predetermined, but he needs a trial anway), or something of that nature.

The Misconduct in public office offence is committed when:

- a public officer acting as such;
- wilfully neglects to perform his duty and/or wilfully misconducts himself;
- to such a degree as to amount to an abuse of the public's trust in the office holder;
- without reasonable excuse or justification.


https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidanc...-public-office

I argue misleading the queen on prorogation of Parliament scores at least four out of four. Possibly more, since it scores at least double on some of those lines. All that is left is to determine the length of the sentence, the maximum is life in prison, which seems appropriate. Follow the procedure in place for the eventuality of a PM that dies on office.

There is a procedure that gives a new PM in case the old one snuffs it, right?

McHrozni
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Last edited by McHrozni; 22nd September 2019 at 11:09 PM.
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Old 22nd September 2019, 11:25 PM   #40
The Great Zaganza
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I get the impression that Bojo supporters are pretty much interchangable with Trump supporters.
Replace Democrats with Brussels and you wouldn't be able to tell them apart.
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