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Old 9th October 2019, 06:04 AM   #1
Steve001
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What does the future hold for particle physics?

A short vid I stumbled upon and found it interesting.

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Sabine Hossenfelder is an author and theoretical physicist who researches quantum gravity. She is a Research Fellow at the Frankfurt Institute for Advanced Studies where she leads the Analog Systems for Gravity Duals group. Wikipedia
https://youtu.be/Go2TaEUQpF4
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Old 9th October 2019, 07:51 AM   #2
jonesdave116
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Originally Posted by Steve001 View Post
A short vid I stumbled upon and found it interesting.


https://youtu.be/Go2TaEUQpF4

I'll have to admit to not watching the video, as particle physics doesn't really float my boat. However, I am aware of Sabine Hossenfelder from some of her blog posts. For instance, there was this post, regarding the LIGO results:

https://backreaction.blogspot.com/20...with-ligo.html

There was a considerable amount of criticism of her and the post here;

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20881986

So, without seeing the video myself, people may want to take that into consideration (whatever she's saying!).
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Old 9th October 2019, 08:03 AM   #3
Steve001
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Originally Posted by jonesdave116 View Post
I'll have to admit to not watching the video, as particle physics doesn't really float my boat. However, I am aware of Sabine Hossenfelder from some of her blog posts. For instance, there was this post, regarding the LIGO results:

https://backreaction.blogspot.com/20...with-ligo.html

There was a considerable amount of criticism of her and the post here;

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20881986

So, without seeing the video myself, people may want to take that into consideration (whatever she's saying!).
The two links have nothing to do with the LHC. The vid is a short exposè highlighting some of the expectations of some particle physicists had and perhaps still do that have not panned out.
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Old 9th October 2019, 08:13 AM   #4
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it'd help if steve were to briefly summarize the central thesis or claim of the video.
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Old 9th October 2019, 08:34 AM   #5
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https://backreaction.blogspot.com/ is a link to her blog. At the top, now, is her blogpost on the future of particle physics, including the video (per the OP).

In a nutshell, the Higgs (or something like it) was expected, per the Standard Model (of particle physics, not cosmology). But the theoretical basis for any other new particle was, and still is, weak/flawed, at least accessible to likely future accelerators of the LHC kind.
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Old 9th October 2019, 09:12 AM   #6
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The point of the vid is stated near the end, that being, nature does not care what physicists think should be.
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Old 9th October 2019, 10:02 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by JeanTate View Post
https://backreaction.blogspot.com/ is a link to her blog. At the top, now, is her blogpost on the future of particle physics, including the video (per the OP).

In a nutshell, the Higgs (or something like it) was expected, per the Standard Model (of particle physics, not cosmology). But the theoretical basis for any other new particle was, and still is, weak/flawed, at least accessible to likely future accelerators of the LHC kind.
Unfortunately, the people who likely disagree with her are not going to have the time to write blogs, and produce videos, to argue their points.
It's an interesting piece, from one person's perspective. I am sure there are others.
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Old 9th October 2019, 10:38 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by jonesdave116 View Post
Unfortunately, the people who likely disagree with her are not going to have the time to write blogs, and produce videos, to argue their points.
There are a lot more than you’d probably guess; Peter Woit’s blog has links to many physics blogs, many of which are about particle physics.

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It's an interesting piece, from one person's perspective. I am sure there are others.
There certainly are!

Some older blog posts of Sabine’s, on very similar topics, attracted hundreds of comments, a great many with (strong) disagreement. Yet, IMHO, even the best professional responses fell flat. Or, “naturalness” theories are not distinguishable from magic, and have no experimental support.
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Old 10th October 2019, 09:55 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Steve001 View Post
The point of the vid is stated near the end, that being, nature does not care what physicists think should be.
That seems to be a particularly vacuous observation.

"Nature" does not "care" full stop.
It just is.
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Old 11th October 2019, 02:22 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
That seems to be a particularly vacuous observation.

"Nature" does not "care" full stop.
It just is.
You just made her point.
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Old 11th October 2019, 03:39 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
"Nature" does not "care" full stop.
Try going against Nature and you will find it cares plenty.

People often get away with breaking human laws because nobody cares enough to stop them. But break a Law of Nature and... you can't. That's why it's important that we find out what those laws are.

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It just is.
Yes, that's obvious. But what is it?

The problem with particle physics is that it is based on the existence of particles.
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Old 11th October 2019, 08:51 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by paiute View Post
You just made her point.
Yes. I should have read the article rather than just posts here.
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Old 11th October 2019, 09:22 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Try going against Nature and you will find it cares plenty.
Nope, anthropomorphising “Nature” doesn’t imbue it with a consciousness. (even capitalising should be a crime)
“It” cannot “care”.

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People often get away with breaking human laws because nobody cares enough to stop them. But break a Law of Nature and... you can't. That's why it's important that we find out what those laws are.
Ugh, philosophy.
Sorry, I don’t mean to be offensive or dismissive, but I find philosophical (like religious) discussions tedious and pointless, so at this juncture I’ll just be walking away...
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Yes, that's obvious. But what is it?

The problem with particle physics is that it is based on the existence of particles.
Yes, the article did give the impression of a factional fight. Which has even become tedious on Big Bang Theory.
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Old 12th October 2019, 08:26 AM   #14
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She is only the latest in a long sequence of physicists who think their colleagues are too much in love with string theory. I think their position is quite valid. Supersymmetry (a necessary part of string theory) is mathematically beautiful and makes new predictions (a new particle for each existing particle). But every time we have have made a collider that probes at higher energy, it was predicted that the super particles would be detected. And so far, they have not. So the string theory keeps evolving to explain why the particles must be at even higher energies. It really does sound a lot like wishful thinking.

Bob
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Old 12th October 2019, 08:54 AM   #15
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Q. What does the future hold for particle physics?

A. Particles.

No, seriously. Particle physicists need to keep their jobs. This means that they will keep finding and studying particles in the future.
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Old 12th October 2019, 09:00 AM   #16
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I know! But I’m sitting in place, so I have no idea how I’m speeding past my own ideas

I do create an interference pattern. My ex-wife says so
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Old 13th October 2019, 09:10 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Yes, the article did give the impression of a factional fight. Which has even become tedious on Big Bang Theory.
I didn't read it that way, but more along the line that the LHC has turned out to be a colossal waste of time and money. Admitting that doesn't make you part of a 'faction'.

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anthropomorphising “Nature” doesn’t imbue it with a consciousness.
Oh dear.

Originally Posted by theprestige
Q. What does the future hold for particle physics?

A. Particles.

No, seriously. Particle physicists need to keep their jobs. This means that they will keep finding and studying particles in the future.
And if they can't find any they just invent 'unparticles'! Or spend €7.5 billion on a machine to find a particle they already knew about.
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