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Old 23rd August 2021, 03:59 AM   #1
Lurch
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Maybe the biggest case of sour grapes in history?

Looking from the outside, and trying to come up with anything at all like it in history, I wonder if Republicans losing their collective minds over Dump's electoral loss might qualify as the biggest case of sour grapes in human history.

When the sack of rotting yams won in 2016, so many of its gloating supporters rubbed it in with talk of drinking liberal tears. Ah, the projection! Look how they cry so much harder now. And how angry, and full of hate, and clinging to delusional fantasies.

Their Furher refusing to concede and thereby deny an orderly transfer of power, relentlessly hammering into the receptive skulls of his slavering simpletons the Big Lie.

Their political party getting busy like the home team making the assistant coach the referee, with their repressive electoral laws and the clawing unto them control over ballot counting.

From the treasonous top to the basest deplorable, a crazed mob of tens of millions of surly losers bent on revenge and a democracy-ending will to power.

Sour grapes on a scale for which I can find no real equivalent.
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Old 23rd August 2021, 04:44 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Looking from the outside, and trying to come up with anything at all like it in history, I wonder if Republicans losing their collective minds over Dump's electoral loss might qualify as the biggest case of sour grapes in human history.

When the sack of rotting yams won in 2016, so many of its gloating supporters rubbed it in with talk of drinking liberal tears. Ah, the projection! Look how they cry so much harder now. And how angry, and full of hate, and clinging to delusional fantasies.

Their Furher refusing to concede and thereby deny an orderly transfer of power, relentlessly hammering into the receptive skulls of his slavering simpletons the Big Lie.

Their political party getting busy like the home team making the assistant coach the referee, with their repressive electoral laws and the clawing unto them control over ballot counting.

From the treasonous top to the basest deplorable, a crazed mob of tens of millions of surly losers bent on revenge and a democracy-ending will to power.

Sour grapes on a scale for which I can find no real equivalent.
Every election going forward in the foreseeable future is going to be increasingly bitter as this country rips itself apart. The 2020 election was more bitter than the 2016 election, and the 2024 will almost certainly be even more bitter, more violent, and result in increasing radicalization.

The only exception to this rule is that I suspect mainstream Democrats to continue to pretend this isn't happening and those in positions of power to do nothing about it, ensuring that they are unprepared to deal with an increasingly radicalized right wing in this country.
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Old 23rd August 2021, 04:53 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Every election going forward in the foreseeable future is going to be increasingly bitter as this country rips itself apart. The 2020 election was more bitter than the 2016 election, and the 20204 will almost certainly be even more bitter, more violent, and result in increasing radicalization.

The only exception to this rule is that I suspect mainstream Democrats to continue to pretend this isn't happening and those in positions of power to do nothing about it, ensuring that they are unprepared to deal with an increasingly radicalized right wing in this country.
Fortunately, it looks like we've got about 18,188 years to address the problem.
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Old 23rd August 2021, 04:56 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
Fortunately, it looks like we've got about 18,188 years to address the problem.


I imagine even after all that time, the Democrats wouldn't have evolved beyond their strategy of unilaterally declaring peace and wondering why they keep getting punched in the nose.
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Old 23rd August 2021, 09:18 AM   #5
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A kind of parallel could be mooted in the case of Germany after WW1. Because her military wasn't resoundingly defeated (in the way it was in the next go around), this permitted the myth of the 'stab in the back' to gain traction. A Big Lie that facilitated the rise to power of a vengeful, ultimately ruinous dictatorship.

But I don't have the impression that as large a fraction of the German populace was fully taken in by this Big Lie, at least not so for a good while. It had to be invented after the event. And await the dire economic disruption of the Great Depression to hasten its festering.

If only 2020 could have been more like the total German rout of 1945 that her military-conserving retirement of 1918. The GOP needed to be routed, put completely back on their heels. But then, the screeching about a stolen election might have been only more insane...


It's the number of ways in which this sour grapes sickness manifests itself in this supposed home of the brave and land of the free that has me gobsmacked. For instance, had Dump won re-election, I would imagine the extent of this nutty anti-vax foolishness would be rather less. It seems that a certain degree of nihilism has taken hold. Or at least a biting off of the nose to spite the face.

To say nothing of the increased threat of right wing terror. The irony of Dump's befuddled cultists advocating for the kind of violent redress of their misplaced grievance, which they would be likely to have projected upon the opposition after their previous loss, is lost on them. Repubs really are the Party of Projection. Which in its collective mind absolves it of its own iniquity.
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Old 23rd August 2021, 09:34 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Looking from the outside, and trying to come up with anything at all like it in history, I wonder if Republicans losing their collective minds over Dump's electoral loss might qualify as the biggest case of sour grapes in human history.

When the sack of rotting yams won in 2016, so many of its gloating supporters rubbed it in with talk of drinking liberal tears. Ah, the projection! Look how they cry so much harder now. And how angry, and full of hate, and clinging to delusional fantasies.

Their Furher refusing to concede and thereby deny an orderly transfer of power, relentlessly hammering into the receptive skulls of his slavering simpletons the Big Lie.

Their political party getting busy like the home team making the assistant coach the referee, with their repressive electoral laws and the clawing unto them control over ballot counting.

From the treasonous top to the basest deplorable, a crazed mob of tens of millions of surly losers bent on revenge and a democracy-ending will to power.

Sour grapes on a scale for which I can find no real equivalent.
And with every passing year, the Russians get better and better at manipulating rabid, low-information voters who, like Trump himself, believe they are very-stable geniuses.

Twenty-first American history will be divided between pre-Trump and post-Trump eras.
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Old 23rd August 2021, 09:48 AM   #7
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I find many parallels to various 19th century revolutionary cycles.

In much the same way, we living concurrently in this moment are trying to make sense of it as the fluid, moving narrative that it is. History viewing it some 50+ years from now will break it down into rationalized (and ahistorical) segments for sake of understanding because anyone not in the "living experience" can understand every nuance and turn.

Both are valid in their own ways, of course. Similar to the conflict every student of historiography understands, the duality of "does the person make history or does history make the person."

I suspect we're living in a moment that will, at some later date, be described as the end of the nation-state era and the beginning of...whatever the next thing will be called. Of course, it will be covered in qualifiers that no, we did not all go to bed one night as citizens of nation-states and wake up the following morning with some other label.
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Old 23rd August 2021, 10:30 AM   #8
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In its original meaning, based on a reference to one of Aesop's fables, "sour grapes" refers to a sore loser disparaging the prize that was lost. I don't see Trumpists saying things like "we didn't really want the Presidency anyhow" or "U.S. political power isn't really that important, you know."

If you're disparaging the winner, calling the contest unfair, or demanding an immediate re(count)match, that's not technically sour grapes. It's just being a whining sore loser.

But, maybe the meaning has shifted over time.
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Old 23rd August 2021, 10:39 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
In its original meaning, based on a reference to one of Aesop's fables, "sour grapes" refers to a sore loser disparaging the prize that was lost. I don't see Trumpists saying things like "we didn't really want the Presidency anyhow" or "U.S. political power isn't really that important, you know."

If you're disparaging the winner, calling the contest unfair, or demanding an immediate re(count)match, that's not technically sour grapes. It's just being a whining sore loser.

But, maybe the meaning has shifted over time.
Damnit! I just came here to say this very thing! Ah, **** it, who cares, it wasn't really worth saying anyway...
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Old 23rd August 2021, 10:52 AM   #10
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Lurch, that is a great post. It's not just a case of sour grapes, though: it's fear. The one thing every Big Lie believer shares is a fear of something they thought Trump would 'fix'. Immigration, loss of white, Christian privilege (control), 'socialistcommies', loss of 2A gun rights (which epitomizes their idea of their 'freedoms', for the wealthy, it's fear that their tax/business advantages will be reduced, and/or general distrust of the government fuels these people. If you listen to why they voted for Trump, it's almost always based on some fear. I've long said that fear is the common core that runs through conservatism: the more fear they have, the more right wing extreme they are.

If there is one thing that Trump is good at, it's recognizing and playing on that fear. Remember how he claimed that he alone could fix things? And these fearful people believed him because they so desperately want to believe that he could stop a changing America, their changing world.

These interviews of Trump supporters from before the first election really demonstrate what I'm talking about. They're interesting from another perspective, too, because it demonstrates the belief they had in him as a 'great businessman', a multi-b/millionaire who 'built his own company from the ground up'. Of course, we know now that this is not true. Some also express the belief that he 'really cares about America', is 'honest', and 'tells it like it is'. We now know those are also not true. He's a sociopath and a narcissist who lies constantly, says whatever he thinks will benefit him at the time, and cares about no one and nothing except himself.

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Old 23rd August 2021, 10:59 AM   #11
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The meaning of 'sour grapes' has expanded over time to also include:

Quote:
...a situation where someone criticizes another person or accuses them of using unfair methods because they are jealous of their success
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us...sh/sour-grapes

Quote:
If you describe someone's behavior or opinion as sour grapes, you mean that that person is angry because they have not gotten or achieved something that they wanted
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/...sh/sour-grapes

Quote:
COMMON If you describe someone's attitude as sour grapes, you mean that they are jealous of another person's success and show this jealousy by criticizing that person. These accusations have been going on for some time now, but it is just sour grapes. The government says that Mr Fedorov's criticisms are mere sour grapes.
https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/sour+grapes
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Old 23rd August 2021, 11:25 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
In its original meaning, based on a reference to one of Aesop's fables, "sour grapes" refers to a sore loser disparaging the prize that was lost. I don't see Trumpists saying things like "we didn't really want the Presidency anyhow" or "U.S. political power isn't really that important, you know."

If you're disparaging the winner, calling the contest unfair, or demanding an immediate re(count)match, that's not technically sour grapes. It's just being a whining sore loser.

But, maybe the meaning has shifted over time.
I saw a meme yesterday from one of my conservative acquaintances:

"I was once willing to give my life for what I believed this country stood for. Today I would give my life to protect my family from what this country has become"

That to me is pretty close to sour grapes. If they can't rule the nation, then they believe that it is because the nation is now the bad thing.
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Old 23rd August 2021, 11:31 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
In its original meaning, based on a reference to one of Aesop's fables, "sour grapes" refers to a sore loser disparaging the prize that was lost. I don't see Trumpists saying things like "we didn't really want the Presidency anyhow" or "U.S. political power isn't really that important, you know."

If you're disparaging the winner, calling the contest unfair, or demanding an immediate re(count)match, that's not technically sour grapes. It's just being a whining sore loser.

But, maybe the meaning has shifted over time.
I think you're correct - after realizing one isn't going to get the grapes, they try and convince themselves they're sour so they don't want them anyways.
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Old 23rd August 2021, 01:13 PM   #14
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I think you have to look at the whole phenomenon from a larger view point than just "Trump."

I've come to see this as the latest sign of the decline of traditional conservatism in America. This goes way back, to at least the 60's.

I think Stacyhs is fundamentally correct: fear is the underlying motivator. I think most people who are traditional conservatives, especially those who are Christian- have been feeling this fear for decades. We see this fear manifested in many ways: the anti-hippie movement, the war on drugs, the rise of the Christian Right, the Satanic Panic, the push against immigration and recently the whole QAnon thing with the concurrent rise of the Alt-Right. What's happening is that those traditional values, the values that these traditional conservatives believe in, are breaking down in the larger American society. They fear -and it's a very valid fear, I think- that their entire way of life and way of thinking of the world is under attack.

This traditional way of thinking is rooted in Christian thought. That's why so much of the rhetoric that is being embraced in the last few decades focuses on evil and Satanism. "Socialism," for example, isn't just some political movement, it's an evil agenda -literally the devil's work- that wants to usurp the Judeo-Christian foundation of the country and replace it with a system that takes away their rights and punishes them for their beliefs. We see this now with mask and vaccine hesitancy.

So I wouldn't call it merely sour grapes, that understates by a huge margin what's actually happening. Trump's loss was a big blow to their collective belief system. Their whole world and cultural identity is crumbling down around them. Their biggest institutions are failing. People are turning away from religion. People are beginning to embrace more progressive ideas. This is their last gasp at recapturing something that they see as fundamentally American . . . something they sincerely and firmly believe in. "Their country," is changing in ways they see as un-American. It should be expected that they won't go down quietly. Trump, as always, was just a figurehead, a rallying point.

The question is, how is the rest of the country going to handle this monumental shift in culture?
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Old 23rd August 2021, 02:27 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I think you have to look at the whole phenomenon from a larger view point than just "Trump."

I've come to see this as the latest sign of the decline of traditional conservatism in America. This goes way back, to at least the 60's.

I think Stacyhs is fundamentally correct: fear is the underlying motivator. I think most people who are traditional conservatives, especially those who are Christian- have been feeling this fear for decades. We see this fear manifested in many ways: the anti-hippie movement, the war on drugs, the rise of the Christian Right, the Satanic Panic, the push against immigration and recently the whole QAnon thing with the concurrent rise of the Alt-Right. What's happening is that those traditional values, the values that these traditional conservatives believe in, are breaking down in the larger American society. They fear -and it's a very valid fear, I think- that their entire way of life and way of thinking of the world is under attack.

This traditional way of thinking is rooted in Christian thought. That's why so much of the rhetoric that is being embraced in the last few decades focuses on evil and Satanism. "Socialism," for example, isn't just some political movement, it's an evil agenda -literally the devil's work- that wants to usurp the Judeo-Christian foundation of the country and replace it with a system that takes away their rights and punishes them for their beliefs. We see this now with mask and vaccine hesitancy.

So I wouldn't call it merely sour grapes, that understates by a huge margin what's actually happening. Trump's loss was a big blow to their collective belief system. Their whole world and cultural identity is crumbling down around them. Their biggest institutions are failing. People are turning away from religion. People are beginning to embrace more progressive ideas. This is their last gasp at recapturing something that they see as fundamentally American . . . something they sincerely and firmly believe in. "Their country," is changing in ways they see as un-American. It should be expected that they won't go down quietly. Trump, as always, was just a figurehead, a rallying point.

The question is, how is the rest of the country going to handle this monumental shift in culture?
Agreed. Good insight.
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Old 23rd August 2021, 02:29 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
A kind of parallel could be mooted in the case of Germany after WW1. Because her military wasn't resoundingly defeated (in the way it was in the next go around), this permitted the myth of the 'stab in the back' to gain traction. A Big Lie that facilitated the rise to power of a vengeful, ultimately ruinous dictatorship.

But I don't have the impression that as large a fraction of the German populace was fully taken in by this Big Lie, at least not so for a good while. It had to be invented after the event. And await the dire economic disruption of the Great Depression to hasten its festering.

If only 2020 could have been more like the total German rout of 1945 that her military-conserving retirement of 1918. The GOP needed to be routed, put completely back on their heels. But then, the screeching about a stolen election might have been only more insane...


It's the number of ways in which this sour grapes sickness manifests itself in this supposed home of the brave and land of the free that has me gobsmacked. For instance, had Dump won re-election, I would imagine the extent of this nutty anti-vax foolishness would be rather less. It seems that a certain degree of nihilism has taken hold. Or at least a biting off of the nose to spite the face.

To say nothing of the increased threat of right wing terror. The irony of Dump's befuddled cultists advocating for the kind of violent redress of their misplaced grievance, which they would be likely to have projected upon the opposition after their previous loss, is lost on them. Repubs really are the Party of Projection. Which in its collective mind absolves it of its own iniquity.
Actually the similarities with post World War I Germany are pretty interesting.

Basically just after the war and even the Treaty of Versailles most of the German public blamed the anachronistic Imperial regime and nationalist and militaristic idiots for the defeat and disaster. That changed.

Even before the Treaty of Versailles was signed the right wing media in Germany was bleating about being stabbed in the back by Socialists, Liberals and of course everyone's favorite scapegoat the Jews. So the prep work for the lie was started early.

Ludendorff and Hindenburg helped this lie along quite deliberately. In early October 1918 Ludendorff was having a fit and demanding that the politicians negotiate an armistice to save the army from crushing defeat. At the time the armistice was signed both Ludendorff and Hindenburg very carefully avoided signing it. Why? Well because both of them at the time said it served their political goals. I.e., it would enable them to disclaim all responsibility for it and they could say politicians had "betrayed" the army. Even though both of them had been hysterically demanding an armistice to save the army.

And so after the war both of them coolly and deliberately propagated the stab in the back lie. Denied all responsibility for the disaster and blamed others. Thus both of them to a Reichstag committee looking into the causes of the defeat coolly lied and said the army had not been defeated but stabbed in the back. They of course knew full well that was a total lie. This is like the behavior of Trump et al after the 2020 election.

Added to this is the hysteria of the German right wing over the Treaty of Versailles, characterized by massive lies and distortions.

Thus between the wars Germany was afflicted with a huge mendacious bunch of so-called "Patriots" who coolly and deliberately lied for political advantage and sold that lie. The result was a relentless propaganda campaign that had by 1930 convinced most Germans of the truth of the stab in the back lie along with Germany not really being defeated. And today another lie is being sold but this time in the USA, which threatens to seriously damage American Democracy.
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Old 23rd August 2021, 02:32 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Pacal View Post
Actually the similarities with post World War I Germany are pretty interesting.

Basically just after the war and even the Treaty of Versailles most of the German public blamed the anachronistic Imperial regime and nationalist and militaristic idiots for the defeat and disaster. That changed.

Even before the Treaty of Versailles was signed the right wing media in Germany was bleating about being stabbed in the back by Socialists, Liberals and of course everyone's favorite scapegoat the Jews. So the prep work for the lie was started early.

Ludendorff and Hindenburg helped this lie along quite deliberately. In early October 1918 Ludendorff was having a fit and demanding that the politicians negotiate an armistice to save the army from crushing defeat. At the time the armistice was signed both Ludendorff and Hindenburg very carefully avoided signing it. Why? Well because both of them at the time said it served their political goals. I.e., it would enable them to disclaim all responsibility for it and they could say politicians had "betrayed" the army. Even though both of them had been hysterically demanding an armistice to save the army.

And so after the war both of them coolly and deliberately propagated the stab in the back lie. Denied all responsibility for the disaster and blamed others. Thus both of them to a Reichstag committee looking into the causes of the defeat coolly lied and said the army had not been defeated but stabbed in the back. They of course knew full well that was a total lie. This is like the behavior of Trump et al after the 2020 election.

Added to this is the hysteria of the German right wing over the Treaty of Versailles, characterized by massive lies and distortions.

Thus between the wars Germany was afflicted with a huge mendacious bunch of so-called "Patriots" who coolly and deliberately lied for political advantage and sold that lie. The result was a relentless propaganda campaign that had by 1930 convinced most Germans of the truth of the stab in the back lie along with Germany not really being defeated. And today another lie is being sold but this time in the USA, which threatens to seriously damage American Democracy.
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Old 23rd August 2021, 03:28 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I think you have to look at the whole phenomenon from a larger view point than just "Trump."

I've come to see this as the latest sign of the decline of traditional conservatism in America. This goes way back, to at least the 60's.

I think Stacyhs is fundamentally correct: fear is the underlying motivator. I think most people who are traditional conservatives, especially those who are Christian- have been feeling this fear for decades. We see this fear manifested in many ways: the anti-hippie movement, the war on drugs, the rise of the Christian Right, the Satanic Panic, the push against immigration and recently the whole QAnon thing with the concurrent rise of the Alt-Right. What's happening is that those traditional values, the values that these traditional conservatives believe in, are breaking down in the larger American society. They fear -and it's a very valid fear, I think- that their entire way of life and way of thinking of the world is under attack.

This traditional way of thinking is rooted in Christian thought. That's why so much of the rhetoric that is being embraced in the last few decades focuses on evil and Satanism. "Socialism," for example, isn't just some political movement, it's an evil agenda -literally the devil's work- that wants to usurp the Judeo-Christian foundation of the country and replace it with a system that takes away their rights and punishes them for their beliefs. We see this now with mask and vaccine hesitancy.

So I wouldn't call it merely sour grapes, that understates by a huge margin what's actually happening. Trump's loss was a big blow to their collective belief system. Their whole world and cultural identity is crumbling down around them. Their biggest institutions are failing. People are turning away from religion. People are beginning to embrace more progressive ideas. This is their last gasp at recapturing something that they see as fundamentally American . . . something they sincerely and firmly believe in. "Their country," is changing in ways they see as un-American. It should be expected that they won't go down quietly. Trump, as always, was just a figurehead, a rallying point.

The question is, how is the rest of the country going to handle this monumental shift in culture?
Agree with this also. The same kind of people who used to moan about "the blacks" moving into their neighborhood and driving down their house's values* are just applying the same fear to a larger neighborhood, the whole of America. To them, it's not a country (or an ideal) to be shared, it's one they own; and if they can't have it all, entirely on and in their own terms, they'd rather see it burn than be shared.

*And don't even get me started on the ones who used to base their politics on things like "would you want your daughter marryin' a black fella?!!?!?"
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Old 23rd August 2021, 04:06 PM   #19
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
Agree with this also. The same kind of people who used to moan about "the blacks" moving into their neighborhood and driving down their house's values* are just applying the same fear to a larger neighborhood, the whole of America. To them, it's not a country (or an ideal) to be shared, it's one they own; and if they can't have it all, entirely on and in their own terms, they'd rather see it burn than be shared.

*And don't even get me started on the ones who used to base their politics on things like "would you want your daughter marryin' a black fella?!!?!?"
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Old 23rd August 2021, 04:38 PM   #20
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Meanwhile I see this thread as an extension of the biggest sour grapes case in history: Hillary Clinton's loss in 2016.
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Old 23rd August 2021, 04:49 PM   #21
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Thank you everyone above for expressing some of the thoughts I have about our current situation in America. Very well expressed.

ETA - Except for the comment about Hillary. She lost, sad but true. I moved on, why can't you? Sour grapes?

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Old 23rd August 2021, 05:19 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Meanwhile I see this thread as an extension of the biggest sour grapes case in history: Hillary Clinton's loss in 2016.
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Old 23rd August 2021, 06:02 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
In its original meaning, based on a reference to one of Aesop's fables, "sour grapes" refers to a sore loser disparaging the prize that was lost. I don't see Trumpists saying things like "we didn't really want the Presidency anyhow" or "U.S. political power isn't really that important, you know."

If you're disparaging the winner, calling the contest unfair, or demanding an immediate re(count)match, that's not technically sour grapes. It's just being a whining sore loser.

But, maybe the meaning has shifted over time.
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Damnit! I just came here to say this very thing! Ah, **** it, who cares, it wasn't really worth saying anyway...
Beautiful illustration.
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Old 23rd August 2021, 06:43 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Meanwhile I see this thread as an extension of the biggest sour grapes case in history: Hillary Clinton's loss in 2016.
What is that expression I've heard several times before? Oh, yes:

"rent free".
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Old 23rd August 2021, 07:59 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
In its original meaning, based on a reference to one of Aesop's fables, "sour grapes" refers to a sore loser disparaging the prize that was lost. I don't see Trumpists saying things like "we didn't really want the Presidency anyhow" or "U.S. political power isn't really that important, you know."

If you're disparaging the winner, calling the contest unfair, or demanding an immediate re(count)match, that's not technically sour grapes. It's just being a whining sore loser.

But, maybe the meaning has shifted over time.
Might not the original meaning have some smidgen of relevance here? The degree of destructive nihilism--self-destructive-- on display would seem to bespeak of a willingness to break the prize for all if it cannot be had. There is a willingness to jettison a familiar way of life by adopting a new politics of authoritarianism, through cheating no less; even by force would not be beyond contemplation for some. It's tantamount to saying, "Who needs this stupid democratically elected Presidency anyway!" To be willing to court such a significant departure from generations of prior practice, practically overnight, suggests a certain disdain for the formerly cherished mode of politics.

Imagine if Saint Ronnie's ghost could have seen the supposedly Republican Americans wearing those T-shirts emblazoned with, "I'd rather be a Russian than a Democrat." There is a mental illness throughout the land, and one might wonder if some kind of Civil War II could be in the offing. For the afflicted sour, sore losers, it's becoming, "Freedom for me, but not for thee." Failing to realize, the historically ignorant chumps that they are, that that kind of 'freedom' runs out for everyone, and soon.
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Old 23rd August 2021, 08:14 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Might not the original meaning have some smidgen of relevance here? The degree of destructive nihilism--self-destructive-- on display would seem to bespeak of a willingness to break the prize for all if it cannot be had. There is a willingness to jettison a familiar way of life by adopting a new politics of authoritarianism, through cheating no less; even by force would not be beyond contemplation for some. It's tantamount to saying, "Who needs this stupid democratically elected Presidency anyway!" To be willing to court such a significant departure from generations of prior practice, practically overnight, suggests a certain disdain for the formerly cherished mode of politics.



Imagine if Saint Ronnie's ghost could have seen the supposedly Republican Americans wearing those T-shirts emblazoned with, "I'd rather be a Russian than a Democrat." There is a mental illness throughout the land, and one might wonder if some kind of Civil War II could be in the offing. For the afflicted sour, sore losers, it's becoming, "Freedom for me, but not for thee." Failing to realize, the historically ignorant chumps that they are, that that kind of 'freedom' runs out for everyone, and soon.
No, the fable is about self-rationalization to avoid admission of failure.

The fox did not destroy the grapes or actively prevent others from attaining them.

The fox did not blame the grapes for being to high to attain or shadowy forces raising the branch during its attempts.

ETA: I agree there are various forms of self-rationalization. What we're seeing is almost akin to the fox declaring some sinister cabal manipulating the forces of gravity. Recall one of Trump's favorite comforting delusions is that everything is "so unfair." It is more of a self-victimization than a self-rationalization.

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Old 23rd August 2021, 08:23 PM   #27
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I wonder if Aesop was aware that grapes are toxic to foxes?
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Old 23rd August 2021, 08:23 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I wonder if Aesop was aware that grapes are toxic to foxes?
Mind=blown

Could very well have been a subtle nod to the idea that sometimes achieving a desperately sought after goal will destroy you.

Not terribly out of line with Greek thought, actually.

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Old 23rd August 2021, 08:30 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Mind=blown

Could very well have been a subtle nod to the idea that sometimes achieving a desperately sought after goal will destroy you.

Not terribly out of line with Greek thought, actually.
I have always asked my students to think carefully about that story and ask if it conveys the generally accepted lesson.
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Old 23rd August 2021, 08:55 PM   #30
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Without a doubt fear is likely the most potent motivator for the reactionary Right. I would never suggest otherwise. Indeed, in my younger years, until about age 30, and in spite of my natural liberalism, I felt a little discomfort when contemplating the relentless demographic shift underway in North America. But I got over that upon realizing that my own hide was no more 'valuable' than anyone else's.

Now that I'm nearer to 60, my acceptance of all races is complete to the point where I sneer at the mindless, crazed, white, so-called Christians who think their benighted way of life will end just because other people are around them. They have lost sight completely of the imprecations of their avowed Lord. Even were they to be the last in a land of heathens, their connection to their God, if they are faithful, would be as strong as when among a nation of their kind. These CINOs are demonstrably concerned far more with the trappings of life on this side of the pearly gates. Why be so utterly mindful of this gnat's span on Earth as against the eternity of bliss that they believe awaits?

Hypocrisy is a human characteristic I despise with a fierce heat. Most of all where acts contradict a professed and purportedly ingrained adherence to a set of morals or belief system. Those who worship Jesus while thinking themselves superior to their fellows disqualify themselves utterly as followers of the Christ. Theirs is a hollow pantomime.

The fear these people experience when sensing the changing society around them is farther beyond my principal concern here. That being the more immediate loss of a contest to install the nation's leader, or at least figurehead. This position has assumed an outsized importance for an increasingly divided populace. It's come to almost be a surrogate for war, with much emotion invested. And the fearful Right clearly has invested the most, as evidenced by their radical tantrums over losing.
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Old 23rd August 2021, 10:06 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Meanwhile I see this thread as an extension of the biggest sour grapes case in history: Hillary Clinton's loss in 2016.
Well, that's weird
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Old 23rd August 2021, 10:57 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Looking from the outside, and trying to come up with anything at all like it in history, I wonder if Republicans losing their collective minds over Dump's electoral loss might qualify as the biggest case of sour grapes in human history.

Sour grapes on a scale for which I can find no real equivalent.
The equivalent was very likely Trump's win in 2016. The press made fun of Trump even running and was so angry that he won, they went out of their way to persecute him.

People were saying the election wasn't valid, etc etc, similar to what happened in 2020, but in case you didn't notice, many of the press (such as CNN) are not exactly unbiased in their news coverage.

Some in congress and some others were claiming that "Trump" isn't my president" before he even took office.

Trump was investigated for things ad nauseum. Whether it was substantiated or not, Hunter Biden appears to have been involved in worse and there's no action taken.

And this is not about (R) or (D). I believe the election process has become so partisan that this is now the current standard.

In case nobody noticed, Pelosi (she didn't eventually do it) hinted that maybe the house should overturn a certified election in Iowa because a very close race in Iowa was won by a republican.
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Old 24th August 2021, 01:08 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
The equivalent was very likely Trump's win in 2016. The press made fun of Trump even running and was so angry that he won, they went out of their way to persecute him.

People were saying the election wasn't valid, etc etc, similar to what happened in 2020, but in case you didn't notice, many of the press (such as CNN) are not exactly unbiased in their news coverage.

Some in congress and some others were claiming that "Trump" isn't my president" before he even took office.

Trump was investigated for things ad nauseum. Whether it was substantiated or not, Hunter Biden appears to have been involved in worse and there's no action taken.

And this is not about (R) or (D). I believe the election process has become so partisan that this is now the current standard.

In case nobody noticed, Pelosi (she didn't eventually do it) hinted that maybe the house should overturn a certified election in Iowa because a very close race in Iowa was won by a republican.

This looks like something a PR flack would put out. Loaded with feeble whataboutisms.


Lindsey Graham said that if Trump was the nominee for Prez he would destroy the Republican Party, and it would be deserved.

The Trump campaign was in contact with Russians who worked to put him in office (perhaps as much to keep HRC out). It's arguable their support made the difference, making Trump's win potentially questionable.

Mueller documented 10 clear instances of Trump having engaged in obstruction of justice, which are actual crimes. Trump wasn't investigated for reasons of spite.

Ah, that good old chestnut, Hunter. With no position in the government, and thus unable to wield influence, he was FAR down on the totem pole compared to a criminal prez. Try to retain some sense of perspective.


Anyway, when Trump won in '16, no one on the left was plotting (much less executing) a storming of the capitol to hang the VP, or threatening to blow up Washington, or demanding partisan fraudits of the ballots, or retreating into a fantasy land of bat-crap, crazy claptrap divorced from reality. The Repub tears have flowed rather more copiously with their side's loss. Indicating a lesser maturity, an inability to lose gracefully, and a refusal to face facts. Thay can't even admit Trump uttered a single lie, in spite of the more than 30,000 documented instances.

This steadfast denial of reality makes them dangerous.
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Old 24th August 2021, 01:25 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
The equivalent was very likely Trump's win in 2016. The press made fun of Trump even running and was so angry that he won, they went out of their way to persecute him.

People were saying the election wasn't valid, etc etc, similar to what happened in 2020, but in case you didn't notice, many of the press (such as CNN) are not exactly unbiased in their news coverage.

Some in congress and some others were claiming that "Trump" isn't my president" before he even took office.

Trump was investigated for things ad nauseum. Whether it was substantiated or not, Hunter Biden appears to have been involved in worse and there's no action taken.

And this is not about (R) or (D). I believe the election process has become so partisan that this is now the current standard.

In case nobody noticed, Pelosi (she didn't eventually do it) hinted that maybe the house should overturn a certified election in Iowa because a very close race in Iowa was won by a republican.
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Old 24th August 2021, 03:13 AM   #35
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I don’t see it as sour grapes. The presidency still looks sweet the same as Clinton supporters did in 2016.or the Republicans in 2008,2012 Or the Democrats did in 2000, 2004. Those grapes maybe look better to the losers than the winners find them to be.
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Old 24th August 2021, 03:25 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Meanwhile I see this thread as an extension of the biggest sour grapes case in history: Hillary Clinton's loss in 2016.
To repeat myself:

Quote:
Classic whataboutism.

Yes it is true that at the time in 2016 some people thought Trump had 'stole" the election and Hillary was the "real" winner. but it is not the same has what happened after the 2020 election.

1. Before the 2020 election Trump was saying if he lost it could only be because of fraud. Did Hillary say anything like that before the 2016 election? No.

2. Did Hillary go around campaigning that the election was a fraud? No.

3. Did Hillary's followers launch a massive campaign to promote the idea that it was a fraud? No.

4. Did Hillary and her Lawyers launch dozens of court cases challenging the election results? No.

5. Did Hillary and her followers do massive rallies screaming about "stopping the steal"? No.

6. Did Hillary never concede that she had actually lost the election. No. Hillary did the day after the election.

7. Did Hillary go around calling Government Officials to find the "real" results so she would win? No.

8. Did Hillary's followers after being riled up by a series of speeches by Hillary and her supporters try to storm the Capital building to stop Trump being certified? No.

All we got at worst from Hillary supporters at the time was vague talk which few took seriously. Nothing like what Trump and Trump supporters did after the 2020 election.

And regarding the 2016 election.

1. Trump stated months before on more than one occasion that if he lost the 2016 election it could only be because of fraud.

2. Hillary got c. 3 million more votes than Trump did and Trump claimed that the c. 3 million votes were fraudulent.

3. After Trump was installed in office he set up an investigation into the alleged fraudulent c. 3 million votes. They found close to zero fraud.

Any similarity between the reaction of Hillary and her supporters to their loss in 2016 and the reaction of Trump and his supporters in 2020 is politely very, very loose.

Further given what Trump was saying before the 2016 election and the 2020 election it is clear just how unhinged Trump's response to losing would be and how calculated it would be.
The sour grapes response to Hillary's loss doesn't come close.
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Old 24th August 2021, 04:45 AM   #37
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Come on, it all makes sense (well, at least some if it kind of does) if you remember one thing: "The two parties are both the same" is not an observation, it's dogma.
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Old 24th August 2021, 05:13 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Pacal View Post
To repeat myself:



The sour grapes response to Hillary's loss doesn't come close.
You forgot if Trump won Fair and Square in 2016 you have to believe God Makes Appointments to have personal Meetings with Lying 9/11No Planer Russian Useful idiot Conspiracy theorists.
JUST read about Jerome Corsi in the Mueller Report.
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Old 24th August 2021, 05:37 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
Agree with this also. The same kind of people who used to moan about "the blacks" moving into their neighborhood and driving down their house's values* are just applying the same fear to a larger neighborhood, the whole of America.
Oh they still do that, they just are more circumspect in their wording and who they express it to.
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Old 25th August 2021, 05:50 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Every election going forward in the foreseeable future is going to be increasingly bitter as this country rips itself apart. The 2020 election was more bitter than the 2016 election, and the 2024 will almost certainly be even more bitter, more violent, and result in increasing radicalization.

The only exception to this rule is that I suspect mainstream Democrats to continue to pretend this isn't happening and those in positions of power to do nothing about it, ensuring that they are unprepared to deal with an increasingly radicalized right wing in this country.
The democrats have no way to go but continue as is. We don't have socialism. It will be obvious when some plan for health insurance finally appears. It will be basically Obamacare with insurance companies under federal control. Or Medicare as is.

The long term trend, however, is towards Democrats. People will eventually either join them, if they have any practical sense, or stay in red states where the republicans have local influence but less and less federal level control. The Senate will very soon go to the democrats by 5 seats or so and the GOP is out of it for a long time.

Anti-government sentiments will be strong in states and at the grass roots level. A large part, some 20-30% of the voters, will be lost to conspiracy theories forever. That way they can blame someone else for their personal failures.
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