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Tags 2020 elections , Biden administration , Biden controversies , joe biden , Kamala Harris

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Old 24th September 2021, 06:38 PM   #2281
Fast Eddie B
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Most wealth today is inherited and not created from scratch. Capitalism rewards ability, but mostly it rewards the offspring of ability.
That may be true overall.

Still, I looked up the richest folks on the planet, and for the most part at those lofty heights it doesn’t hold.

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Old 24th September 2021, 06:46 PM   #2282
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Trump is going to be very unhappy as he's only #339 out of 400 in the US and only #1438 on the World's richest people. Maybe he can cheat and get his numbers up like he did before.
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Old 24th September 2021, 06:55 PM   #2283
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Yeah, but the reality is that we don't necessarily reward those with ability. Most wealth today is inherited and not created from scratch. Capitalism rewards ability, but mostly it rewards the offspring of ability.
It also doesn't reward those with the best innovations, ideas or work ethic. Much of the wealth goes to those who game the system or inherit from that system.
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Old 24th September 2021, 07:00 PM   #2284
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I don't quite buy that since Marx was wrong on so many things I don't think he is a reliable guide to much.
Uh, non sequitur.

Marx's views being right or wrong has nothing to do with whether people are accurately describing his views.

In fact Marx (and Engels, as well) derided many socialists as utopian.

ETA: Marx's impact is mostly as a sociologist more than political theorist. "Marxism" in fact, is not a prescription for a government model, but a form of socioeconomic analysis.

But Marx was popular in some circles and so people aspiring to power would say "we're Marxists" to borrow on his legacy.

Sorry to say, but you sound like you're regurgitating all kinds of decades-old tropes from the cold War that have little to nothing to do with the actual human person that existed.

Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 24th September 2021 at 07:15 PM.
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Old 24th September 2021, 07:59 PM   #2285
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
That may be true overall.

Still, I looked up the richest folks on the planet, and for the most part at those lofty heights it doesn’t hold.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...d370217a_z.jpg
The problem with the lists of the wealthiest individuals is that they are often very wrong. And out of curiosity don't you think the rewards of their abilities aren't really rewards for their abilities, but the people that work at Microsoft, Amazon, Tesla, Facebook, Apple, Oracle, Google etc?

Still, there are millions of heirs living off the wealth created by their great grandparents, grandparents, and parents. Here are just a few. I give you the Walmart clan.the Ford family, the Kennedys, the Vanderbilts, the Rockefellers, the Kochs, the Rothschilds

Oh, and did I forget President Trump and his children?
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Old 24th September 2021, 10:27 PM   #2286
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Perhaps I'm not making myself clear.

Marx thought capitalism would inevitably change into communism. He called this a revolution, but it's more in the sense that the industrial revolution was a revolution, an inevitable historical process which is called a revolution because it introduces radical change. Actual violent political revolutions are not inevitable processes, they are peculiar processes that don't have to happen, they can fail, and oddly enough even when successful they don't necessarily produce much change beyond who's in charge.

But capitalism doesn't turn into communism, ever. It is only non-capitalist countries which turn to communism. And it is never democratic, as Marx believed it would be.

In other words, Marx was fundamentally wrong about how history works.
No, he was very right. You act like the transition from feudalism to capitalism wasn't rocky as well.

Revolution doesn't have to be especially violent, and doesn't always refer to actual physical action. Throwing out our Constitution and ratifying a new one that emphasizes socialist ideals and goals would be a revolutionary act. And one I support.

He's also right that the conditions in society need to be right for any radical action to happen, which is why I work within mainstream politics despite my disgust in doing so sometimes.

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
"Evolve" is probably not the right term.

But they produced a lot of literature saying political reforms would need to happen to "bring about the conditions necessary" for even further social reforms. They were echoing/expanding on similar themes from the French Revolution and the (largely unsuccessful) movements in mid-1800s across Europe, concluding those earlier examples all failed to take these next steps.
Yep. Political revolution doesn't happen without social revolution, and vice-versa. If you can't get people to agree with you, no way you can get them to fight with you. That's why the main goal should be to move society farther and farther to the left, so people would be more amenable to agreement with socialist and communist views.

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Old 25th September 2021, 04:38 AM   #2287
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
And out of curiosity don't you think the rewards of their abilities aren't really rewards for their abilities, but the people that work at Microsoft, Amazon, Tesla, Facebook, Apple, Oracle, Google etc?
I think my point, if I had a point, was that in at least the very top, it was not inherited wealth that led to or fostered their billions.
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Old 25th September 2021, 05:55 AM   #2288
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
No, he was very right.
How was he right, if none of his predictions have ever come to pass?

This is pure cult member doomsday rationalization.
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Old 25th September 2021, 11:30 AM   #2289
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
How was he right, if none of his predictions have ever come to pass?

This is pure cult member doomsday rationalization.
For once we agree.
I find the encless excuses Marxist have for the total failure of Marxism (which is different then other more moderate forms of Socialism) total failure whenever it has been tried.
THen there is the huge body count Marxism has managed to rack up....any system that produces people like Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot has got to be suspect.
And the whole "Ths state will wither away" theory is just plain laughable.
i repeat, Marxism is just like religion;In the ne it's based on total faith in a all knowing infalible
divine being (Marx) and his sacred scriptures.
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Old 25th September 2021, 12:02 PM   #2290
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It's odd to use a computer game series as a source of political wisdom, but the first two "Bioshock" games make the point about how both left and right extremes lead to a very bad place.
In the first game, the villian (for most of the game) is Andrew Ryan whose philosohy is based on that of Ayn Rand, and an attempt to create a real life "Galt's Gulch" under the sea leads to disaster, and in the second it's Sofia Lamb who thinks that any form of self interest and any attempt to improve one lot individually is evil,and also leads to disaster.
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Old 25th September 2021, 12:19 PM   #2291
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
The problem with the lists of the wealthiest individuals is that they are often very wrong. And out of curiosity don't you think the rewards of their abilities aren't really rewards for their abilities, but the people that work at Microsoft, Amazon, Tesla, Facebook, Apple, Oracle, Google etc?

Still, there are millions of heirs living off the wealth created by their great grandparents, grandparents, and parents. Here are just a few. I give you the Walmart clan.the Ford family, the Kennedys, the Vanderbilts, the Rockefellers, the Kochs, the Rothschilds

Oh, and did I forget President Trump and his children?
Well not everyone can start a pizzeria in a gold Field and Charge gold for pie,
No Pizza Gate jokes now please.
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Old 25th September 2021, 01:08 PM   #2292
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
I think my point, if I had a point, was that in at least the very top, it was not inherited wealth that led to or fostered their billions.
It's a good point.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't reward people for their abilities. We should.

But the system today is obscene and frankly is counterproductive. How the wealthy use their wealth is what makes it bad. The more income and wealth is amassed with fewer individuals the more the economy is geared towards that reality. Look at the business that thrive in our economy. Luxury items for the wealthy are manufactured instead of commodity items for the poor and middle class.
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Old 25th September 2021, 01:08 PM   #2293
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Uh, non sequitur.

Marx's views being right or wrong has nothing to do with whether people are accurately describing his views.

In fact Marx (and Engels, as well) derided many socialists as utopian.

ETA: Marx's impact is mostly as a sociologist more than political theorist. "Marxism" in fact, is not a prescription for a government model, but a form of socioeconomic analysis.

But Marx was popular in some circles and so people aspiring to power would say "we're Marxists" to borrow on his legacy.

Sorry to say, but you sound like you're regurgitating all kinds of decades-old tropes from the cold War that have little to nothing to do with the actual human person that existed.
This is pretty accurate.

The utopian socialists who preceded them like Saint-Simon, Fourier, and Owen were considered by Marx and Engels to have the right basic concept, but they were utopian in their thinking that we can all just put our differences aside and come together for the common good.

The scientific socialists knew based on historical materialism that the ruling class never gives up their power easily, and therefore to achieve socialism, the bourgeoisie need to be supplanted and suppressed by the proletariat.

And yep, I ended up learning the most about Marxism initially in my sociology studies, where he is considered much more influential. Much like with many other Millennials, Gen Z, and whatever the current young generation is called I had an affinity for the concept of socialism growing up. And we also didn't have the Cold War propaganda of previous generations brainwashing us into believing that socialism and communism is evil.

My generation has grown up in a world that is rapidly falling apart and we see older generations doing nothing to stop it. The system I grew up believing in, and enlisted to protect, has failed us. We realize that radical action is needed.
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Old 25th September 2021, 01:46 PM   #2294
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Mod WarningPlease return to discussing the Biden Presidency. If you want to discuss, compare or analyse economic systems, please do so in an appropriate thread.
Responding to this mod box in thread will be off topic Posted By:Agatha
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Old 25th September 2021, 01:47 PM   #2295
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Removed upon seeing mod directive.

Congrats for getting the last word in.

Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 25th September 2021 at 01:48 PM.
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Old 25th September 2021, 02:25 PM   #2296
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I agree that this thread got way off track. I apologize.

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Old 27th September 2021, 05:41 AM   #2297
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From notable far-left rag The Atlantic:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...s-over/620208/

Quote:
Democrats’ Free Pass on Immigration Is Over
As he extends Trump-era policies, President Biden discovers that many voters are no longer willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.


Up until recently, the Biden administration seemed to have been banking on the persistence of this double standard, whereby the left-leaning parts of the public assume general goodwill on the part of Democratic politicians and therefore give them a pass. The administration has taken up court battles to protect some of Trump’s harshest asylum policies and commenced flying multiple planeloads of migrants back to Haiti. Now-viral images show that, in recent days, Border Patrol agents have been charging at—and in some cases verbally assaulting—Haitian migrants marooned at the Mexican border across from Del Rio, Texas.

But the assumption that these tactics would go unchallenged when deployed by a Democratic administration, as was often the case in the past, appears to have been a serious miscalculation. The spotlight that Trump shined on the southern border for four years is still plugged in. The public is still paying attention. And images that evoke the era of slavery—with fair-skinned men on horseback rushing Black migrants, whiplike reins flailing behind them—have added to a long-simmering push from the left to consider immigration policy not simply in terms of economics or national security, but also in terms of race.
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Old 27th September 2021, 11:54 AM   #2298
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Communism doesn't work because it goes against human nature: greedy, selfish, and personal survival.
Exactly you have to remember poverty is a feature not a bug of capitalism.
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Old 27th September 2021, 12:00 PM   #2299
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
No, not across the board. Standards of living have been decreasing in the US for the last 40 years. Homelessness in the US is at an all time high.
Feature of capitalism, look how much more wealth billionaires have than they did 40 years ago. The system works exactly as designed. You have to understand that this isn't a bug in capitalism but a feature. We should be celebrating this as good capitalists.
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Old 27th September 2021, 12:03 PM   #2300
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
The problem with the lists of the wealthiest individuals is that they are often very wrong. And out of curiosity don't you think the rewards of their abilities aren't really rewards for their abilities, but the people that work at Microsoft, Amazon, Tesla, Facebook, Apple, Oracle, Google etc?

Still, there are millions of heirs living off the wealth created by their great grandparents, grandparents, and parents. Here are just a few. I give you the Walmart clan.the Ford family, the Kennedys, the Vanderbilts, the Rockefellers, the Kochs, the Rothschilds

Oh, and did I forget President Trump and his children?
And of course those "self made" billionares are not exactly starting off in low ecconomic status either. They have the family wealth to start their businesses, even if that was not in the .01% wealth it was certainly in the top 5%.
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Old 27th September 2021, 12:07 PM   #2301
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
I think my point, if I had a point, was that in at least the very top, it was not inherited wealth that led to or fostered their billions.
It certainly did foster their billions. Elon Musk father made a mint off apartheid, have him access to all the best schools. Bezo's parents had the $250,000 to risk on their kids crazy online book store.

These are not people who came from nothing.
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Old 27th September 2021, 12:10 PM   #2302
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Removed upon seeing mod directive.

Congrats for getting the last word in.
I note that there is another thread in USA Politics to discuss wealth inequality, "The Rich Win Again."
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Old 27th September 2021, 07:02 PM   #2303
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Some TV journalists are making fun of democrats not passing stuff. After all, the GOP passed...er...one bill in 2 years. But they were unified! The problem is that even though Dems are in power, 2 of them are essentially Republicans.

The progressive democrats somehow think two bills will pass. The "radical" bills that are in fact the Biden infrastructure plan.
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Old 28th September 2021, 05:54 AM   #2304
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Originally Posted by Tero View Post
Some TV journalists are making fun of democrats not passing stuff. After all, the GOP passed...er...one bill in 2 years. But they were unified! The problem is that even though Dems are in power, 2 of them are essentially Republicans.

The progressive democrats somehow think two bills will pass. The "radical" bills that are in fact the Biden infrastructure plan.
The problem is that perpetuating the meme that government is ineffectual and powerless to actually improve material conditions for ordinary people is beneficial to the conservative political project and corrosive to the liberal project.

If the Democratic party is going to run as a meaningful alternative to right wing rule, they need to actually demonstrate that government, with the right leaders, is actually a useful social project that people should care about.

Rumors are coming out that there are talks of neutering Biden's infrastructure bill with the patented liberal means testing in order to appease the austerity hawks. If there's one thing the public loves, it's being tasked with being amateur bureaucrats in order to access social services.

Quote:
Sources tell me that White House and Democrats considering attaching means test to a number of key agenda items - from EV rebates and free community college - as a way to shrink reconciliation bill and pacify spending hawks.
https://twitter.com/JarrettRenshaw/s...38588441354243

The problem is that while Democrats are very good at telling the public that better government is possible, they routinely fail to actually show that better government is possible.
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Old 28th September 2021, 12:31 PM   #2305
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That's true. The Finns I talk to or post with, in America make fun of American social programs. The working class/middle class people who are used to some of this support. "What good are free school lunches if you don't give it to all the people?"
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Old 28th September 2021, 07:07 PM   #2306
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Yelling just said that all the expedients that she can use to delay the effects of the default will be exhausted by Oct 18th. Then disaster will happen.
Techinically the Government will shut down on Friday because the FY 2021 runs out that day.
You could see some stop gap spending measure to keep it open,,,which is what has happened in the past,but that does not seem to be in the cards this year.
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Old 28th September 2021, 08:48 PM   #2307
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Very odd strategy by the Republicans: vote against the debt ceiling thing while talking about how vital it is to pass it and how bad the Democrats are for not outvoting your votes against it.

Last edited by Delvo; 28th September 2021 at 09:24 PM.
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Old 28th September 2021, 09:09 PM   #2308
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Yep. They are publicly stating they want to crash the economy just to troll the libs.
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Old 29th September 2021, 04:48 AM   #2309
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
Very odd strategy by the Republicans: vote against the debt ceiling thing while talking about how vital it is to pass it and how bad the Democrats are for not outvoting your votes against it.
It's not new, they've been doing it since Reagan. This is from 2006:

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Old 29th September 2021, 05:23 AM   #2310
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Meanwhile, in the real world, it's becoming increasingly obvious who's responsible for gridlocking the legislative system and engaging in financial brinksmanship. Much to the chagrin of a certain pundit class, it ain't the progressives screwing things up, but rather a handful of their beloved "moderates".

Quote:
Manchin, Sinema leave Dems in lurch as Biden agenda teeters
The two moderate Democrats continue to frustrate members of their party, offering few specifics on what they would support in a broad spending bill.



Democrats wanted clarity Tuesday from Sens. Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema after back-to-back meetings with President Joe Biden. They didn’t get it.

During a private meeting with the president, Sinema made clear she’s still not on board with the party’s $3.5 trillion social spending plan and is hesitant to engage on some specifics until the bipartisan infrastructure package passes the House, according to a person who spoke with her.

“This is the third time she said she has told the president, 'I’m not there,'” the person said, quoting Sinema as telling the president: “‘I’ve been very clear with you from the start.’”

Sinema has problems with both the price tag and some of the tax increases devised to pay for it. After returning from his White House meeting, Manchin said that he did not give Biden a top-line number and made “no commitments from my standpoint.”

Sinema and Manchin’s approach to the negotiations has frozen Biden’s jobs and families plan and potentially may lead to a high-profile failure of a bipartisan infrastructure bill on the House floor as progressives threaten rebellion. But without more details from the moderate duo, any hope of a bicameral agreement on Biden’s agenda is a pipe dream.
https://www.politico.com/news/2021/0...s-biden-514574

I wonder how much of this is simply a messaging problem for the Democratic party. With the 2020 electoral win, all these stories were going around about how the liberals held a thin ruling majority, but really that's not the case. When you take into account conservative rouges like Sinema and Manchin, more often than not the party lacks the numbers to enact their policy agenda.

ETA: Lol

Quote:
it's amazing that sinema and manchin have no specific criticism of the bill and no preferred alternatives and are left just kind of saying they aren't vibing with it so nobody really knows what to do
https://twitter.com/MattBruenig/stat...11477418414082

It's kinda wild that there was a 420-9 vote to give Israel a billion dollars they don't really need, but it's an open question whether or not we should continue to fund our own government or if investing in our own infrastructure is "fiscally responsible" to ghouls like manchin or sinema.
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Old 29th September 2021, 12:29 PM   #2311
dudalb
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The whole system by which congress operates in archaic and updated.
Roberts of "Roberts Rules Of Order" would be horrified by the mockety of parliamentary procedure the US Congress has begun.
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Old 29th September 2021, 12:48 PM   #2312
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The whole system by which congress operates in archaic and updated.
Roberts of "Roberts Rules Of Order" would be horrified by the mockety of parliamentary procedure the US Congress has begun.
To be honest, the whole idea of a separate legislature and executive with their own election cycles is pretty stupid, unless the goal was to have frequent deadlocked government.

The parliamentary system with a prime minister, with snap elections as an option to settle contentious matters, is much better in this specific regard.
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Old 29th September 2021, 06:34 PM   #2313
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
To be honest, the whole idea of a separate legislature and executive with their own election cycles is pretty stupid, unless the goal was to have frequent deadlocked government.

The parliamentary system with a prime minister, with snap elections as an option to settle contentious matters, is much better in this specific regard.
It is very similar to some points in the Roman Republic. The "check" on power was other officials using their veto and term limits on executive offices. This was meant to prevent tyranny, but more often enabled it by preventing needed solutions to a status quo of gross inequality. The only counter was more vetos on ever more basic functions of government (opening the courts, allowing the treasury to conduct business, etc) in an ever-growing game of brinksmanship and dysfunction.

The Conflict of the Orders, the Gracchi and land reform, then you get to Marius, Sulla, and others being granted extraordinary purview because various crises brought popular pressure for some kind of resolution, any kind of resolution, to bear. Seeing this, it became understood that engineering a crisis could catapult one into power once the resentment gets high enough.

It's like a highly tuned, incredibly balanced, specifically timed, tight tolerance engine...with one glaring omission. There's not a single pressure relief valve (executive action vs. a vote of no confidence serving as a reset button).

Neither are perfect analogies, of course. But the same basic idea of detesting "bold, unilateral action" eventually leads to the system breaking itself apart because sometimes that really does have to happen.
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Old 29th September 2021, 07:23 PM   #2314
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Sinema and Manchin! Those godammed progressives, eh dudalb!
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Old 29th September 2021, 08:13 PM   #2315
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S&M apparently haven't even said what they want, which is not the behavior of people who will soon be negotiating to take out some provisions and leave the rest intact at 2.2 trillion or something like that. That's the behavior of people who just want to prove that they're in control.

Otherwise, I'd say the rest of the party who aren't such far-right extremists should just give them whatever it takes to pass at least half of the thing (even though it's already what they agreed to before after the last time they already got it cut in half for them). As it is, though, they should just do the vote on it in whatever form is available, force S&M to show their colors, and then prepare for campaigns based on "there just weren't enough of us, but we tried; send more of us and it'll work next time".

I don't believe the criticisms of S&M from other Democrats are a good idea, though; it's less likely to get them to change their position than to get them to change their party affiliation and make McConnell the majority leader again.
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Old 29th September 2021, 08:39 PM   #2316
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
The problem with the lists of the wealthiest individuals is that they are often very wrong. And out of curiosity don't you think the rewards of their abilities aren't really rewards for their abilities, but the people that work at Microsoft, Amazon, Tesla, Facebook, Apple, Oracle, Google etc?
Of course. And the failure of Theranos wasn't due to the visionary guidance of those at the top. It was the fault of all those employees who did what they were hired to do, as best they could. /s
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Old 29th September 2021, 08:40 PM   #2317
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
To be honest, the whole idea of a separate legislature and executive with their own election cycles is pretty stupid, unless the goal was to have frequent deadlocked government.
Feature, not bug.

Quote:
The parliamentary system with a prime minister, with snap elections as an option to settle contentious matters, is much better in this specific regard.
Brexit has entered the chat.
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Old 29th September 2021, 09:46 PM   #2318
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
S&M apparently haven't even said what they want, which is not the behavior of people who will soon be negotiating to take out some provisions and leave the rest intact at 2.2 trillion or something like that. That's the behavior of people who just want to prove that they're in control.

Otherwise, I'd say the rest of the party who aren't such far-right extremists should just give them whatever it takes to pass at least half of the thing (even though it's already what they agreed to before after the last time they already got it cut in half for them). As it is, though, they should just do the vote on it in whatever form is available, force S&M to show their colors, and then prepare for campaigns based on "there just weren't enough of us, but we tried; send more of us and it'll work next time".

I don't believe the criticisms of S&M from other Democrats are a good idea, though; it's less likely to get them to change their position than to get them to change their party affiliation and make McConnell the majority leader again.
The problem with that is that is: can Democrats deliver a Republican style of governance, make a celebration of it at the signing ceremony, and expect liberal voters to reward them at the polls.

We'll run into that classic mid-term doldrums of voters bitter that sweeping their party into power "changed not a god damned thing."
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Old 29th September 2021, 09:59 PM   #2319
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This bill is big enough that even with significant reductions it would still not be more of the usual Republicanism.
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Old 30th September 2021, 04:09 AM   #2320
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Feature, not bug.


Brexit has entered the chat.
I never claimed that a parliamentary system was immune to doing stupid things.

The fact that something as complicated and controversial as Brexit was actually able to happen is a testament to the functional nature of the parliamentary system. I don't blame that system for Brexit, I blame the weirdo reactionary movement in Britain that made the call for it popular enough to seize the necessary political power. The brits got exactly what they wanted (and hard), which is how democratic systems are supposed to work.

A similar action in the US probably would have had 5 debt ceiling crisis and 2 impeachments by now or something equally stupid.
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