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Old 18th August 2021, 07:32 AM   #1
Crazy Chainsaw
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The GOP responsibility for the loss of the War in Afghanistan.

Your Thoughts is the GOP responsible for the loss of the war in Afghanistan?
Because they adopted Misinformation, and attacked debunkers, rejecting logic reason and Science for Political gain?
That helped the Taliban win the Propaganda war years ago.
Loose lips sink ships and loose wars.
Your thoughts Please.
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Old 18th August 2021, 07:42 AM   #2
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Plenty of blame to go around across several administrations.

Jeremy Scahill's Dirty Wars (both book and documentary) goes into some of the mistakes during Obama's terms. Yes, somewhat inherited, but far from suppressed, in fact quite enormously expanded there.

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Old 18th August 2021, 07:47 AM   #3
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The original reason for going into Afghanistan was to bust up the Taliban-Al Qaeda relationship, and establish a base of operations to continue the persecution of Al Qaeda. That mission was successful.

The regime-change, nation-building mission was feelgood crap tacked onto the much more direct and achievable realpolitik mission. It was invented by progressives and triangulating RINOs trying to pander to progressive sensibilities. I am not at all surprised that the GOP didn't put a lot of effort into the progressives' utopian stretch goal.

The mission and the message from the very beginning should have been that the Taliban is welcome to do whatever they want with Afghanistan, as long as crappy little regime stays out of international terrorism.

The GOP's real failure - and the one they share with the Dems - is in not guaranteeing the safety of our collaborators in Afghanistan after we concluded our mission there.
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Old 18th August 2021, 07:58 AM   #4
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The real problem with the war in Afghanistan was with the war in Iraq.

That stupid, idiotic, lying George W. Bush dragged the USA into a needless war in Iraq which drained off a considerable amount of resources from the war in Afghanistan and created a whole host of new problems as well.

As a quite predictable result, the war in Afghanistan went quite badly indeed.
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Old 18th August 2021, 08:16 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
The real problem with the war in Afghanistan was with the war in Iraq.

That stupid, idiotic, lying George W. Bush dragged the USA into a needless war in Iraq which drained off a considerable amount of resources from the war in Afghanistan and created a whole host of new problems as well.

As a quite predictable result, the war in Afghanistan went quite badly indeed.
Have to agree, but don't forget about the Alt Right Propaganda Machine that helped the Taliban win the Propaganda war, even attacking debunkers of idiot conspiracy theories, like Myself to Protect Fox Fraud News.
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Old 18th August 2021, 08:23 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The regime-change, nation-building mission was feelgood crap tacked onto the much more direct and achievable realpolitik mission. It was invented by progressives and triangulating RINOs trying to pander to progressive sensibilities. I am not at all surprised that the GOP didn't put a lot of effort into the progressives' utopian stretch goal.
Absurdly ahistorical.

Nation building and regime change were products of PNAC neoconservatives, who explicitly believed that forcing constructed democracies on authoritarian states by military means would make the world safer. The same people who had unsuccessfully pushed for Bush, Sr. to overthrow Saddam Hussein a decade earlier. They generally saw themselves as a continuation of Reagan-era foreign policy (and many had served in the Reagan administration).

Trying to pin this on progressives, who barely even existed as anything more than a synonym for liberals at the time, is just completely brazen.

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Old 18th August 2021, 08:28 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The original reason for going into Afghanistan was to bust up the Taliban-Al Qaeda relationship, and establish a base of operations to continue the persecution of Al Qaeda. That mission was successful.

The regime-change, nation-building mission was feelgood crap tacked onto the much more direct and achievable realpolitik mission. It was invented by progressives and triangulating RINOs trying to pander to progressive sensibilities. I am not at all surprised that the GOP didn't put a lot of effort into the progressives' utopian stretch goal.

The mission and the message from the very beginning should have been that the Taliban is welcome to do whatever they want with Afghanistan, as long as crappy little regime stays out of international terrorism.

The GOP's real failure - and the one they share with the Dems - is in not guaranteeing the safety of our collaborators in Afghanistan after we concluded our mission there.
Actually the Crazy Conspiracy Theories hurt us more in Afghanistan than many realize, Large Numbers of Afghanis still believe 9/11 was an inside Job,
The Taliban took full advantage of anti American Propaganda.
That hurt us as much as anything else, but then Jet Fuel can Melt Steel, I proved that years ago.
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Old 18th August 2021, 08:35 AM   #8
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http://www.longwarjournal.org/archiv...y-theories.php
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Old 18th August 2021, 09:17 AM   #9
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All of it, for the following reasons:

even after the November loss, Trump continued to be make deals with the Taliban, but refused to brief the Biden transition team. Biden had to learn about the deals after his inauguration.
And even after that, McConnell slow walked the confirmation of Biden's intelligence nominees who could have done more to smooth the exit from Afghanistan.
Unless you demand that the cure administration ought to have superpowers, you have to agree that the withdrawal was deliberately and persistently sabotaged by the Republicans.
It's a miracle that no Americans have died; and it looks like Republicans hoped they would.
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Old 18th August 2021, 09:27 AM   #10
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IMO, we actually won the war in Afghanistan - at least we got OBL and that mullah mohammed what's-his-name guy and stopped Al Qaeda from being a serious international threat. We needed a continued presence there in Afghanistan because the nearest air bases are so far away. By contrast Yemen and Somalia can be disrupted from the sea. It seems most of the fighting had subsided in Afghanistan, the last US casualty was in early 2020. The nation building concept was doomed and futile from the start. Has that ever worked anywhere?

It seems (except Joe Biden, apparently) knew that with no American support, the Afghan forces would fall rapidly, leaving the pickings to the Taliban. I'm nothing near a military expert, but even I can see that the withdrawal was horribly botched. That part is completely on the Biden administration.
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Old 18th August 2021, 10:18 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The original reason for going into Afghanistan was to bust up the Taliban-Al Qaeda relationship, and establish a base of operations to continue the persecution of Al Qaeda. That mission was successful.

The regime-change, nation-building mission was feelgood crap tacked onto the much more direct and achievable realpolitik mission. It was invented by progressives and triangulating RINOs trying to pander to progressive sensibilities. I am not at all surprised that the GOP didn't put a lot of effort into the progressives' utopian stretch goal.
Ah, the Republican Party, and indeed the national security establishment, were merely junior partners to the Cruise Missile Left. Do you actually believe this crapola or is it realpolitik propaganda for the masses?

Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
The real problem with the war in Afghanistan was with the war in Iraq.
Everyone talks about Iraq diverting material resources from Afghanistan, but it also served as an anchoring point in the minds of the American electorate. While the US was divided on invading Iraq, it is true that liberal Democrats regarded Afghanistan as the "good" war. Politicians needed to show themselves "tough on terror," and so they focused on the "real" threat Without the Iraq War, Afghanistan would have received greater scrutiny.

Neo-cons had long been salivating over Iraq, and today claim they were never big on nation-building in Afghanistan as the country was regarded as more intractable and lacking in political/social infrastructure.
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Old 18th August 2021, 10:37 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The original reason for going into Afghanistan was to bust up the Taliban-Al Qaeda relationship, and establish a base of operations to continue the persecution of Al Qaeda. That mission was successful.

The regime-change, nation-building mission was feelgood crap tacked onto the much more direct and achievable realpolitik mission. It was invented by progressives and triangulating RINOs trying to pander to progressive sensibilities. I am not at all surprised that the GOP didn't put a lot of effort into the progressives' utopian stretch goal.

The mission and the message from the very beginning should have been that the Taliban is welcome to do whatever they want with Afghanistan, as long as crappy little regime stays out of international terrorism.

The GOP's real failure - and the one they share with the Dems - is in not guaranteeing the safety of our collaborators in Afghanistan after we concluded our mission there.

That's certainly one way of seeing it. Gotta admit it's pretty creative.

The idea that conservatives in power needed any convincing to engage in nation building via military adventurism in the Middle East is simply historical revisionism to the point of fantasy. 9/11 was the perfect excuse to open up the whole region to long desired direct military interference.

All that said, the post 9/11 war fever was pretty universal. Democrats and liberals generally were all aboard the war train. The few that spoke against it were treated as weirdo radicals, though the objections from people like Rep. Barbara Lee have really held up to the test of time. It's hard to imagine any president, Democratic or Republican, would have resisted the drumbeat for war, but the Bush administration went all-in on this opportunity in a way that is certainly noteworthy.

As the authors of the war, Bush and his apparatus bear the most responsibility. Democrats didn't put up any fight getting lead down the war path, so they are definitely culpable in this ****-up too. Obama and Trump both get dinged for not ending the war when they had the option.

Biden gets a lot of credit for finally calling this thing dead and pulling the plug, though it doesn't help that his fingerprints are all over it from his earlier days as a pro-war Senator.
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Old 18th August 2021, 10:47 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The original reason for going into Afghanistan was to bust up the Taliban-Al Qaeda relationship, and establish a base of operations to continue the persecution of Al Qaeda. That mission was successful.

The regime-change, nation-building mission was feelgood crap tacked onto the much more direct and achievable realpolitik mission. It was invented by progressives and triangulating RINOs trying to pander to progressive sensibilities. I am not at all surprised that the GOP didn't put a lot of effort into the progressives' utopian stretch goal.

The mission and the message from the very beginning should have been that the Taliban is welcome to do whatever they want with Afghanistan, as long as crappy little regime stays out of international terrorism.

The GOP's real failure - and the one they share with the Dems - is in not guaranteeing the safety of our collaborators in Afghanistan after we concluded our mission there.
I guess GW Bush was a 'progressive' and "RINO" then when he said in April, 2002:

Quote:
“We know that true peace will only be achieved when we give the Afghan people the means to achieve their own aspirations. Peace will be achieved by helping Afghanistan develop its own stable government.” In his memoir, one chapter of which is devoted to Afghanistan, Bush writes that “Afghanistan was the ultimate nation building mission. We had liberated the country from a primitive dictatorship, and we had a moral obligation to leave behind something better. We also had a strategic interest in helping the Afghan people build a free society,” because “a democratic Afghanistan would be a hopeful alternative to the vision of the extremists.”
Quote:
“The task turned out to be even more daunting than I anticipated,” he writes.
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Old 18th August 2021, 10:50 AM   #14
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I'll blame the Democrats (not progressives as I'm not going to lend credence to right-wing lies) at least this far: President Obama had every reason and opportunity to get us the **** out of that region during his 8 years in office. We'd gotten more than enough revenge (particularly on innocents) and imposing liberal democracy was a hopeless cause. He and every Democrat in Congress at the time should feel unending shame for their part in letting that **** go on.
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Old 18th August 2021, 11:03 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
That's certainly one way of seeing it. Gotta admit it's pretty creative.

The idea that conservatives in power needed any convincing to engage in nation building via military adventurism in the Middle East is simply historical revisionism to the point of fantasy. 9/11 was the perfect excuse to open up the whole region to long desired direct military interference.

All that said, the post 9/11 war fever was pretty universal. Democrats and liberals generally were all aboard the war train. The few that spoke against it were treated as weirdo radicals, though the objections from people like Rep. Barbara Lee have really held up to the test of time. It's hard to imagine any president, Democratic or Republican, would have resisted the drumbeat for war, but the Bush administration went all-in on this opportunity in a way that is certainly noteworthy.

As the authors of the war, Bush and his apparatus bear the most responsibility. Democrats didn't put up any fight getting lead down the war path, so they are definitely culpable in this ****-up too. Obama and Trump both get dinged for not ending the war when they had the option.

Biden gets a lot of credit for finally calling this thing dead and pulling the plug, though it doesn't help that his fingerprints are all over it from his earlier days as a pro-war Senator.
Calling him a 'pro-war' senator is more than a bit of a stretch. Like most, he believed Bush's lie that Saddam had WMD's. Biden voted to give Bush the authority to go into Iraq on that belief BUT he also hoped that Saddam would make the choice of allowing UN inspectors in so that military force was not needed.

Quote:
Biden argued the resolution “would finally force Saddam to face the choice between inspectors and invaders … and there is at least a chance that he might make the right choice.”
Quote:
Biden, Oct. 10, 2002: Concerning Iraq, our first step should be the one the president apparently has chosen: to get the weapons inspectors back into Iraq. … I agree with President Bush that given a new mandate and the authority to go any place, any time, with no advance warning, U.N. inspections can work. They can succeed in discovering and destroying much of Saddam’s chemical and biological arsenals and his missile program. They can delay and derail his efforts to acquire nuclear weapons and, at the very least, they will give us a clearer picture of what Saddam has, force him to focus on hiding his weapons and not building more, and it will buy us time to build a strong coalition to act if he refuses to disarm.
https://www.factcheck.org/2019/09/bi...d-on-iraq-war/
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Old 18th August 2021, 11:04 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I guess GW Bush was a 'progressive' and "RINO" then when he said in April, 2002:
The whole idea of RINOs exists in large part so that things done by Republicans can be written off as things not done by "real" Republicans.

It's a no true Scotsman, with a moving definition that allows them to exclude whatever's politically useful in the moment.

During the W years, it was anyone who didn't wholeheartedly support the wars. Now, it's anyone who did. It's so transparently dishonest.
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Old 18th August 2021, 11:07 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
The whole idea of RINOs exists in large part so that things done by Republicans can be written off as things not done by "real" Republicans.

It's a no true Scotsman, with a moving definition that allows them to exclude whatever's politically useful in the moment.

During the W years, it was anyone who didn't wholeheartedly support the wars. Now, it's anyone who did. It's so transparently dishonest.
Agreed. It's a term they use against any Republican that isn't toeing the party line, whatever it is at the moment.
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Old 18th August 2021, 11:08 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
I'll blame the Democrats (not progressives as I'm not going to lend credence to right-wing lies) at least this far: President Obama had every reason and opportunity to get us the **** out of that region during his 8 years in office. We'd gotten more than enough revenge (particularly on innocents) and imposing liberal democracy was a hopeless cause. He and every Democrat in Congress at the time should feel unending shame for their part in letting that **** go on.
Agreed.

I'll also blame the democrats that helped us go in in there in the first place. And I blame Biden for being so publicly certain that the Taliban wouldn't instantly take over when it doesn't take a military genius to have predicted what happened. I'm not saying Biden should have kept troops there substantially longer, but there could have been a withdrawal that acknowledged what was clearly going to happen and provided more safety to our allies and helpers there as we withdrew.
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Old 18th August 2021, 11:09 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Agreed. It's a term they use against any Republican that isn't toeing the party line, whatever it is at the moment.
Even if what they did was toe what the party line was a few years ago.
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Old 18th August 2021, 11:28 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Agreed.

I'll also blame the democrats that helped us go in in there in the first place. And I blame Biden for being so publicly certain that the Taliban wouldn't instantly take over when it doesn't take a military genius to have predicted what happened. I'm not saying Biden should have kept troops there substantially longer, but there could have been a withdrawal that acknowledged what was clearly going to happen and provided more safety to our allies and helpers there as we withdrew.
I am one of thsoe who agrees with Biden that our intial mission in Afghanistan was correct and necessary:To destroy the Al Qaida there; but that getting involved with nation building was a huge mistake.
I still want to know:If we should not have not after Al Qaida after 9/11 what should we have done? Nothing but polite diplomatic protests?
Guaranteed:Any US political party that would have not have taken strong action after 9/11 would have been toast at the next election.
I agree that Trump handed BIdne a bad deal, but that the actual withdrawal was badly botched and that is on Biden's head. it happened on his watc h.
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Old 18th August 2021, 11:29 AM   #21
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And it's sad to see so many people do a imitation of the Trumpers and resort to deflection.
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Old 18th August 2021, 12:58 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
The real problem with the war in Afghanistan was with the war in Iraq.
This. The pragmatic but more effective way to proceed would have been to ease up and even rebuild relations with Saddam\Iraq and start giving low key support to Iran (it's doubtful they would have accepted much more) and pressure Saudi Arabia to move towards a more moderate regime. The goal would be to use Saddam against extremists in Iraq and Saudi Arabia, and to use Iran against the Taliban with an eye to Iran eventually assuming responsibility for Afghanistan.

Of course Bush et al did the opposite and threw in increased tension with NK as a bonus.
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Old 18th August 2021, 01:45 PM   #23
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One very frustrating thing about this whole withdrawal debacle is that it seems nobody involved in making this happen, be it politicians that planned it or press pundits that made the case to the public, seems to have suffered any negative consequences for such an egregious error.

Everyone involved in making the case for war 20 years ago has failed upwards. Hundreds of thousands of people died in this absolute failure of a war and the people who made it happen haven't been even slightly inconvenienced.

Even now, press outlets are bringing on the "experts" to discuss the situations, despite these experts being demonstrably and grievously wrong about the issue. It's absolutely maddening that these people still get treated as if they aren't massive failures who caused pointless bloodshed and unspeakable suffering.

In all likelihood, the same people and idiotic ideas are going to be fully intact and in charge to plant the seeds for the next disaster. There's no accountability at all.
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Old 18th August 2021, 02:41 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
I'll blame the Democrats (not progressives as I'm not going to lend credence to right-wing lies) at least this far: President Obama had every reason and opportunity to get us the **** out of that region during his 8 years in office. We'd gotten more than enough revenge (particularly on innocents) and imposing liberal democracy was a hopeless cause. He and every Democrat in Congress at the time should feel unending shame for their part in letting that **** go on.
I can agree in part and Disagree in part to this,
I Had a Friend In Afghanistan and I let her down in 2008 I had been giving her
Information to debunk 9/11Controled Demolition theories, and False Flag Theories spread By the Taliban in Afghanistan in 3008.
I was supposed to do a Debunking video on the Conspiracy theories for her, which she would Translate, But I had to drop that after attacks upon my person and Threats on my Family in 2008 because of the Birther Movement and the Militias that followed it. I often wonder if we could have won the hearts and Minds early on, would that have changed the outcome of the conflict?
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Old 18th August 2021, 02:51 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
The real problem with the war in Afghanistan was with the war in Iraq.

That stupid, idiotic, lying George W. Bush dragged the USA into a needless war in Iraq which drained off a considerable amount of resources from the war in Afghanistan and created a whole host of new problems as well.

As a quite predictable result, the war in Afghanistan went quite badly indeed.
To be fair, it wasn't just Dubya that lied. Just about the whole Dubya administration lied about WMDs in Iraq. They all have blood on their hands, especially that bastard Dick Cheney, as well as his cohorts Condoleezza Rice and Andy Card.

Perhaps the only member of that administration who comes out of it with any credit is David Kay, a UN weapon’s inspector. Under Dubya, he worked with the CIA and the US military as the head of the Iraq Survey Group to find out if Iraq had nukes. Kay explicitly stated then that he didn’t think weapons of mass destruction ever existed in Iraq, and when they ignored him, he resigned and went public.
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Old 18th August 2021, 03:11 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
I'll blame the Democrats (not progressives as I'm not going to lend credence to right-wing lies) at least this far: President Obama had every reason and opportunity to get us the **** out of that region during his 8 years in office. We'd gotten more than enough revenge (particularly on innocents) and imposing liberal democracy was a hopeless cause. He and every Democrat in Congress at the time should feel unending shame for their part in letting that **** go on.
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
One very frustrating thing about this whole withdrawal debacle is that it seems nobody involved in making this happen, be it politicians that planned it or press pundits that made the case to the public, seems to have suffered any negative consequences for such an egregious error.

Everyone involved in making the case for war 20 years ago has failed upwards. Hundreds of thousands of people died in this absolute failure of a war and the people who made it happen haven't been even slightly inconvenienced.

Even now, press outlets are bringing on the "experts" to discuss the situations, despite these experts being demonstrably and grievously wrong about the issue. It's absolutely maddening that these people still get treated as if they aren't massive failures who caused pointless bloodshed and unspeakable suffering.

In all likelihood, the same people and idiotic ideas are going to be fully intact and in charge to plant the seeds for the next disaster. There's no accountability at all.
There is also the media at the time, many of whom on both sides if the political divide, were all in on war with Iraq.

John Bolton, Fox News contributor
Larry Kudlow, CNBC senior contributor
Max Boot, Washington Post columnist
Richard Cohen, Washington Post columnist
Ari Fleischer, Fox News contributor
Sean Hannity, Fox News host
Stephen Hayes, Weekly Standard editor-in-chief
Fred Hiatt, Washington Post editorial director
Bill Kristol, Weekly Standard editor-at-large
Paul Gigot, Wall Street Journal editorial page editor
Judith Miller, Fox News contributor
Joe Scarborough, MSNBC host
Bret Stephens, New York Times columnist and MSNBC contributor
David Frum, Atlantic senior editor
Eli Lake, Bloomberg View columnist
Eliot Cohen, Atlantic contributing editor
Ann Coulter, Fox News contributor
Rush Limbaugh, The Rush Limbaugh Show
Nicole Wallace, MSNBC host

https://www.rollingstone.com/politic...taibbi-812230/

After it was realised in 2007 that there were in fact no WMDs in Iraq, the bat crap loony conspiracy theorist, all around ******** and now thankfully deceased Rush Limbaugh, called soldiers who advocated withdrawal from Iraq “phony soldiers.”, Then in 2018 he accused the “deep state” of faking the evidence of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq in order to politically damage Dubya (as if Dumber needed any help with that)
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Old 18th August 2021, 04:03 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I am one of thsoe who agrees with Biden that our intial mission in Afghanistan was correct and necessary:To destroy the Al Qaida there; but that getting involved with nation building was a huge mistake.
I still want to know:If we should not have not after Al Qaida after 9/11 what should we have done? Nothing but polite diplomatic protests?
Guaranteed:Any US political party that would have not have taken strong action after 9/11 would have been toast at the next election.
I agree that Trump handed BIdne a bad deal, but that the actual withdrawal was badly botched and that is on Biden's head. it happened on his watc h.
I agree with that but remember Nation Building only works if you can win the hearts and Minds of the people who's nation you are trying to Rebuild.
That's why McArthur and Hirohito had a good working Relationship in Japan, Both wanted Japan Rebuilt and prosperous.
That is why Afghanistan failed.
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Old 18th August 2021, 04:28 PM   #28
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I haven't posted about this yet and don't intend to again, at least for a while. Having served in Afghanistan, I'm still working through what I think about what happened over the last few days. That said, of the very few things I am sure of, one of them is, it's folly to seek to blame a party or any one president or party. There's plenty of blame (if that's even the right word) to go around. It's not limited to one party or one president.
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Old 18th August 2021, 04:37 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
I haven't posted about this yet and don't intend to again, at least for a while. Having served in Afghanistan, I'm still working through what I think about what happened over the last few days. That said, of the very few things I am sure of, one of them is, it's folly to seek to blame a party or any one president or party. There's plenty of blame (if that's even the right word) to go around. It's not limited to one party or one president.
THIS.
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Old 18th August 2021, 04:39 PM   #30
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Biden just states US troops will stay in Kabul until every American Citizen is out.
I wish he would have said more about the Afghan allies, but it's a step in the right direction, after two days of him playing the blame game. I really expected better, Joe.
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Old 18th August 2021, 04:43 PM   #31
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Bipartisan blame, covering many years.

Going in to Afghanistan in the first place was very popular with the American public - enough to be unavoidable, really.

The fact that we have been unable to create a situation where stable governance in Afghanistan is not self-perpetuating - that's on both parties.

The fact that we stayed in Afghanistan long after we realized our presence could not create stable self -governance - that's also on both parties.

That said, the chaos of this final pullout could have been managed much better, and that's on Biden.
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Old 18th August 2021, 04:51 PM   #32
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CNN reported that the Pentagon told Biden today that it was very unlikely the evacation could be completed by Aug 31st.
Now what does the Taliban do with it;s dealine just torn up?
I got a feeling the other brigades of the 82nd Airborne. will be joining their buddies in Kabul.
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Old 18th August 2021, 04:52 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
That said, the chaos of this final pullout could have been managed much better, and that's on Biden.
I'm not sure it could have been managed too much better.

How many people have died so far?

How many people are being left behind who ought to have been offered asylum?

Would these numbers have been lower in the counterfactual world where Trump won a second term?
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Old 18th August 2021, 05:24 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I'm not sure it could have been managed too much better.
1: Plan earlier to determine who should or should not be allowed to come to the U.S. and generate the appropriate documentation of that.

2: Plan on holding Kabul and it's airport unilaterally as long as needed, so we can get the people out. Abandon everything else, but hold Kabul until we're done with it.

3: Inform the Taliban that we are going to do that. Let them know we'll be leaving and they'll get Kabul if they can, but not until we're done with it. Based on the current activity around the airport, that would have worked - they are not attacking us at the airport and are giving us time to leave because they are confident that we actually will leave if they don't piss us off too much.

4: Play closer attention to the Taliban's advances, so we might be prepared for what they do. Last week it seemed as if the Biden administration was perpetually about 48 hours behind what was actually happening.

5: Plan on intermediate facilities to hold the non-U.S. citizens we evacuate, if we don't want to transport them straight to America or Europe. Stick them in Diego Garcia or Guam or Guantanamo Bay for a week or so if needed. Anywhere to get them out of Afghanistan even if their paperwork is not in perfect order.

Quote:
How many people have died so far?

How many people are being left behind who ought to have been offered asylum?
Five have died at the airport. No Americans, apparently, and all in crowd control efforts that might not have been needed if we had been prepared for the evaporation of the Afghan government.

We don't know how many will be left behind who should have been offered asylum.

Quote:

Would these numbers have been lower in the counterfactual world where Trump won a second term?
No idea. Trump would likely have gotten pissed off and pretended that he never ordered the pullout in the first place, and then ordered it to happen again anyway while insisting that someone else caused it to happen and also claiming he made it happen and claiming great success despite any obvious failures. Then make up stupid nicknames for various people involved before blaming it on someone else and saying something racist and then passing that off as a joke mixed in with unintelligible gibberish.

Last edited by crescent; 18th August 2021 at 05:47 PM.
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Old 18th August 2021, 11:29 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
Your Thoughts is the GOP responsible for the loss of the war in Afghanistan?
Well, the first thought is that you are begging the question that the war in Afghanistan was a loss. That would indicate that the war had a specific goal that was failed to be achieved.
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Old 19th August 2021, 12:38 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Well, the first thought is that you are begging the question that the war in Afghanistan was a loss. That would indicate that the war had a specific goal that was failed to be achieved.
Eliminating Afghanistan as a base for Islamic Islamic Terrorism.
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Old 19th August 2021, 03:55 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
Eliminating Afghanistan as a base for Islamic Islamic Terrorism.
Are any Islamic Terror Groups acting out of Afghanistan currently?
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Old 19th August 2021, 04:32 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Are any Islamic Terror Groups acting out of Afghanistan currently?
They will be the Taliban are well known Liars.
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Old 19th August 2021, 05:03 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Crazy Chainsaw View Post
They will be the Taliban are well known Liars.
This sentence makes no sense in the English language.

However, if there are currently no Islamic Terrorist Groups operating out of Afghanistan and the objective was to stop them from doing so, then isn't that a success.

If your argument is that there is potential for Islamic Terrorist groups to set up shop there in the future, then how would you propose a solution to this short of the US and its allies remaining in Afghanistan as an occupying force indefinitely?
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Old 19th August 2021, 06:37 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
This sentence makes no sense in the English language.

However, if there are currently no Islamic Terrorist Groups operating out of Afghanistan and the objective was to stop them from doing so, then isn't that a success.

If your argument is that there is potential for Islamic Terrorist groups to set up shop there in the future, then how would you propose a solution to this short of the US and its allies remaining in Afghanistan as an occupying force indefinitely?
The Taliban won because they lied they had a more effective Propaganda campaign than we did, part of the Reason we didn't do as well is they gave a more coherent message, while or message was garbled by Conspiracy theories!
When you attack the people trying to debunk the Propaganda from your enemy you give aud and comfort to the Enemy.
The Taliban are Afghanistan's Donald John Trump, they can't be Trusted.
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