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Old 29th August 2021, 08:41 AM   #41
crescent
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Not as far as I'm concerned.

If you are living abroad, I lump you into the "International" contingent. Like it, or not. Because, it seems unlikely that you would be voting Democrat here, while taking up residency in a foreign country. Although, it wouldn't surprise me...these are Democrats, after all.
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I reject their votes as invalid.

Can you answer the question posed in the OP, or is this drivel all you have? It is quite OT.
Our soldiers serving overseas would be happy to know that you don't think their votes are valid. Along with the State Department diplomatic staff, USAID staff, Peace Corps Volunteers and all others serving our government overseas.

I mean, there was a time not so long ago when the Republicans championed the counting of late-arriving absentee ballots, because they knew those leaned disproportionately military and the military leaned strongly Republican. That was one of the legal issues at play on the Bush/Gore recount in Florida.

At any rate, I vote Democratic but have never joined any political party - I'm just not much of a "joiner". I don't really know if I would be counted as a liberal or progressive or what label applies to my preferences.

What your citing is more of Devil's bargain. I don't like either option. If I really had to choose, I suppose I would choose another Trump term rather than 600k American deaths and probably tens of millions more worldwide.
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Old 29th August 2021, 08:43 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Yeah you’re right. Politically biased drivel is predominant in this sub forum. So ask a biased question, receive a biased answer. Seems completely pointless.

Would you be the one to determine if a responder is a democrat and is “big-talking”? Would you apply your own bias to this determination? Again, completely pointless.

And my participation in this thread? Well, you know……
Of course I would make all such determinations. It's my thread, and everyone else is just a guest. And voluntarily so, I might add.

I just wish more people had the guts to answer the question that I posed.
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Old 29th August 2021, 08:44 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Which means, to any casual observer, it would be classified as tremendously liberal. As I stated in my OP.
You are incorrect. As someone who exists outside the traditional left/right slant, It is clearly moderate.
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Old 29th August 2021, 08:46 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I'm the craziest libertarian here. This place is moderately liberal.
Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Which means, to any casual observer, it would be classified as tremendously liberal. As I stated in my OP.
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
You are incorrect. As someone who exists outside the traditional left/right slant, It is clearly moderate.
OK.
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Old 29th August 2021, 08:48 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
What your citing is more of Devil's bargain. I don't like either option. If I really had to choose, I suppose I would choose another Trump term rather than 600k American deaths and probably tens of millions more worldwide.
Thank you for your very reasonable answer to the question posed.
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Old 29th August 2021, 08:58 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Thank you for your very reasonable answer to the question posed.
Sure. I get conflicted about Trump, as far as whether or not he is the worst President we ever had, or only the second worst behind Nixon. Trump got fewer people (Americans + citizens of other nations) killed than Nixon, who as a candidate scuppered a peace deal in Vietnam to make the Dems look bad (resulting in millions of deaths, mostly not American). But Trump has taken steps that severely eroded the faith in the democratic process of the nation, and probably got more Americans killed by via mismanagement of the virus than the number of Americans who died in Vietnam. The catch being, that's not all on Trump as it is a continuation of Republican trends that started before he became dominant and continues among those few in-office Republicans who don't blanket support the idiot.

The jury's still out. If in twenty years we're still a Republic-style Democracy and haven't had a real shooting civil war, then Trump wins for only being second worst ever.

More and more I view the Republican party as the enemy of Democracy. But given a choice between that an millions of deaths - well, I value life.

Then again, you're just asking about a wildly unrealistic scenario of choice. In the real world, I choose Democrat's partly because I feel they'll manage the pandemic better than Republicans do, because ( in the real world) fewer will die under Democratic governance than would under Republican governance.

ETA: I also tend to view the world in strongly international terms. I lived overseas for a few years, my wife is not a U.S. citizen, I may move overseas again sometime in the next few years. An American president who doesn't kill many Americans but slaughters millions of foreign citizens (like Nixon did) is worse to me than an American president who only kills hundreds of thousands of Americans (like Trump did in mismanaging the virus, downplaying severity and effective treatment and such). We are the most powerful nation in the world, our military arm has a long reach and can be misused. Still, it is just a tossup between the two worst - don't imagine for a moment I am defending Trump, I am instead comparing mass murderers based on overall death count.

Last edited by crescent; 29th August 2021 at 09:06 AM.
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Old 29th August 2021, 09:03 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Sure. I get conflicted about Trump, as far as whether or not he is the worst President we ever had, or only the second worst behind Nixon. Trump got fewer people killed than Nixon, who as a candidate scuppered a peace deal in Vietnam to make the Dems look bad. But Trump has taken steps that severely eroded the faith in the democratic process of the nation. The catch being, that's not all on Trump as it is a continuation of Republican trends that started before he became dominant and continues among those few in-office Republicans who don't blanket support the idiot.

The jury's still out. If in twenty years we're still a Republic-style Democracy and haven't had a real shooting civil war, then Trump wins for only being second worst ever.

More and more I view the Republican party as the enemy of Democracy. But given a choice between that an millions of deaths - well, I value life.

Then again, you're just asking about a wildly unrealistic scenario of choice. In the real world, I choose Democrat's partly because I feel they'll manage the pandemic better than Republicans do, because ( in the real world) fewer will die under Democratic governance than would under Republican governance.
Again, fairly reasonable exposition. I think characterizing Nixon as the worst President ever is a bit of a stretch; perhaps you might put forth that he is the worst President in your lifetime (if you are of such age)? At any rate, it is simply a subjective determination.

I don't want to drift too far off-topic, and I am still imploring the resident Dems to answer the question in the OP. And to answer it honestly. I know that is asking a whole lot, though.
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Old 29th August 2021, 09:18 AM   #48
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If you sneeze, cough, fart, and burp all at the same time, you'll die. Heck, even kids in grade school know that. Don't you still know that? Or are you some kinda far-left ideology-eater and don't care how many other people's children die?

C'mon, man up & answer. What's wrong, no guts?
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Old 29th August 2021, 09:35 AM   #49
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I'd take four years of Trump over (as of now) at least 4.5 million dead.
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Old 29th August 2021, 10:18 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
This board obviously has a tremendous liberal slant.
Really? It seems to me that this board has a tremendous facts-and-evidence slant. Maybe Stephen Colbert's joke about reality having a liberal bias wasn't really a joke.

Quote:
My question is, as a Democrat, what do you think of the trade off? Which would you choose, the current Covid death toll (and a Dem in charge), or a country without the virus, and Trump still ruling?
The United States is not a monarchy. This question is nonsense.
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Old 29th August 2021, 10:31 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
...

My question is, as a Democrat, what do you think of the trade off? Which would you choose, the current Covid death toll (and a Dem in charge), or a country without the virus, and Trump still ruling?
If it wasn't COVID it would have been something else. That Dump went 3 years without a major threat to the US is sheer luck.

Dump could get reelected and then COVID could have appeared. Instead of 600K plus dead we'd have no masks, a crippled CDC, a vaccine rollout that was a scatter shot, Dump dumping everything onto the states to manage but they couldn't count on a consistent fed to help.

Then there is Justice Breyer, we'd get another religious devotee on the SCOTUS.

What would Dump have done if China invaded Taiwan? If Russia moved into other countries that used to be part of the USSR? If Israel openly tested the nukes they have? Pakistan and India border skirmishes got much much worse?

The thing with those scenarios is that world leaders by now knew how incompetent Dump was and there's little doubt at least one of these countries would decide there is no better time than now to move.

So I can't really evaluate your choice without knowing what we were going to get from Dump having 4 more years but I'm leaning toward 4 more years being more dangerous than what we are getting with COVID.
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Old 29th August 2021, 10:47 AM   #52
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Definitely would choose no COVID, and give Trump a chance to run again. However, even before COVID though, Trump was enormously unpopular. His chances of winning again would maybe be around 20%, so he would have needed a giant additional success to actually allow him to win a 2nd term.

Even then, it would have been a massive uphill battle for him to overcome his own incompetence.
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Old 29th August 2021, 11:00 AM   #53
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Biden didn't need COVID-19 to win. Trump lost to Hillary Clinton by 3 million votes in the popular election and lost the EC by an accident of history and geography in 2016. Trump's approval rating and lack of any real accomplishments made him a weak candidate going into COIVD-19. He had no big foreign policy wins. His immigration policy was wildly unpopular. His one big domestic policy win was a tax cut that was also unpopular. Half the country thought he should have been removed from office after the first impeachment.
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Old 29th August 2021, 11:02 AM   #54
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We would almost have to tear down or Democratic system and replace it with a fascist dictatorship for Trump to win, and if that were the case, there would be a lot more than 600K killed.

In that case, we would be choosing between a fascist Trump dictatorship killing millions of Americans, or a COVID pandemic killing over 600K.

I would choose no COVID and Trump running in a Democracy, but that would make him actually winning not very likely. Unless he attempted another coup and was successful that time.
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Old 29th August 2021, 11:05 AM   #55
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Delusion is strong in this group.
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Old 29th August 2021, 11:08 AM   #56
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I assume the OP is meant to prove that Democrats manufactured and released Covid in order to topple Trump.
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Old 29th August 2021, 11:17 AM   #57
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COVID-19 clearly brought Trump's inadequacies into clearer view but based on his anemic approval ratings, most voters already knew about them. If he'd have actually done something to stop or slow the pandemic, it could have saved his presidency.
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Old 29th August 2021, 11:29 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I assume the OP is meant to prove that Democrats manufactured and released Covid in order to topple Trump.
Maybe we need some more clarification. Warp12, are you assuming that Trump in this case would run in a fair election and actually win?

Well, fair enough given the rate of voter suppression that we saw in the last election.
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Old 29th August 2021, 11:37 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
This board obviously has a tremendous liberal slant.

I believe that Trump was well on his way to a second term, prior to Covid. That seemed to be the way the wind was blowing, despite 3 years of witch-hunting by butt-hurt Dems. The gamechanger was Covid, which openly exposed Trump as the idiot that he is.

My question is, as a Democrat, what do you think of the trade off? Which would you choose, the current Covid death toll (and a Dem in charge), or a country without the virus, and Trump still ruling?
You've given us a Sophie's choice. There is no good answer. We cannot read the future so saying we'd choose another Trump term is a shot in the dark because we don't know what he could or would have done during that term. Something even worse than Covid could have occurred when an authoritarian, narcissistic, sociopath is "ruling", as you put it, and is backed up by spineless GOP politicians who are scared to death of him. Speaking of "ruling", the term "Freudian slip" comes to mind.

Claiming this forum is 'liberal' is a perfect example of the black and white thinking so prevalent among right wingers: if you're not a conservative, then you're a commiesocialistlibtard.

I do find it interesting that you needed to include this: "That seemed to be the way the wind was blowing, despite 3 years of witch-hunting by butt-hurt Dems." It was a completely superfluous statement that added nothing worthwhile to your post.

Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
This statement alone is an example of how immersed in a liberal psychosis this forum really is.
And yet it's the right wing and Trump cultists that are immersed in a mass delusion that the election was stolen by vote switching ballot machines, foreign servers, and a secret cabal of baby eating, Satanist Democrats.

Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Not as far as I'm concerned.

If you are living abroad, I lump you into the "International" contingent. Like it, or not. Because, it seems unlikely that you would be voting Democrat here, while taking up residency in a foreign country. Although, it wouldn't surprise me...these are Democrats, after all.
So "real, Patriot Americans" never live anywhere but the good ol' U.S. of A.? Only 'butt hurt, witch hunting Dems' live outside the US borders? Do I have that right?

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Old 29th August 2021, 11:47 AM   #60
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As a conservative and a skeptic, I will take a defined variable like Biden over a completely unknown and randomly assigned variable like Trump all day, every day.

Easy question.
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Old 29th August 2021, 11:49 AM   #61
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OP, do you think Trump was a problem to be solved? Do you think Covid-19 is a problem to be solved? Trump and Covid are both symptoms of the same underlying situations. Take away one, take away the other, take away both; the situations remain.

What you're doing here is called bargaining. "Does it make up for supporting the rightist nationalist authoritarian agenda personified by Trump, if I also support efforts to remediate the deadly pandemic?" And then projecting that same bargaining in reverse ("embracing" the pandemic in order to oppose Trump) onto your political opponents.

Bargaining is a normal and common reaction to loss and grief (even though the idea that it's one of some specific number of "stages" that happen in a specific order is mostly nonsense). If you figure out what loss you're grieving for, you might be able to deal with it in more effective ways.
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Old 29th August 2021, 11:54 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
OP, do you think Trump was a problem to be solved? Do you think Covid-19 is a problem to be solved? Trump and Covid are both symptoms of the same underlying situations. Take away one, take away the other, take away both; the situations remain.

What you're doing here is called bargaining. "Does it make up for supporting the rightist nationalist authoritarian agenda personified by Trump, if I also support efforts to remediate the deadly pandemic?" And then projecting that same bargaining in reverse ("embracing" the pandemic in order to oppose Trump) onto your political opponents.

Bargaining is a normal and common reaction to loss and grief (even though the idea that it's one of some specific number of "stages" that happen in a specific order is mostly nonsense). If you figure out what loss you're grieving for, you might be able to deal with it in more effective ways.
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Old 29th August 2021, 12:01 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
You've given us a Sophie's choice. There is no good answer. We cannot read the future so saying we'd choose another Trump term is a shot in the dark because we don't know what he could or would have done during that term. Something even worse than Covid could have occurred when an authoritarian, narcissistic, sociopath is "ruling", as you put it, and is backed up by spineless GOP politicians who are scared to death of him. Speaking of "ruling", the term "Freudian slip" comes to mind.

Claiming this forum is 'liberal' is a perfect example of the black and white thinking so prevalent among right wingers: if you're not a conservative, then you're a commiesocialistlibtard.

I do find it interesting that you needed to include this: "That seemed to be the way the wind was blowing, despite 3 years of witch-hunting by butt-hurt Dems." It was a completely superfluous statement that added nothing worthwhile to your post.

And yet it's the right wing and Trump cultists that are immersed in a mass delusion that the election was stolen by vote switching ballot machines, foreign servers, and a secret cabal of baby eating, Satanist Democrats.

So "real, Patriot Americans" never live anywhere but the good ol' U.S. of A.? Only 'butt hurt, witch hunting Dems' live outside the US borders? Do I have that right?
So, basically, you won't give a direct answer to my simple question. I figured as much.
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Old 29th August 2021, 12:04 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Not as far as I'm concerned.

If you are living abroad, I lump you into the "International" contingent. Like it, or not. Because, it seems unlikely that you would be voting Democrat here, while taking up residency in a foreign country. Although, it wouldn't surprise me...these are Democrats, after all.
Haven't looked at the name of the website you're posting on lately, have you.
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Old 29th August 2021, 12:07 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
So, basically, you won't give a direct answer to my simple question. I figured as much.
What you've given us is this:

Do you still beat your wife on a regular basis? And I'll only accept a simple 'yes' or 'no' because that way, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't ...which is really my objective.

The title of your thread says it all. Do you really think we can't see what's going on here?
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Old 29th August 2021, 12:08 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
My question is, as a Democrat, what do you think of the trade off? Which would you choose, the current Covid death toll (and a Dem in charge), or a country without the virus, and Trump still ruling?
If I were allowed to ignore the "as a Democrat" qualifier, this would be such an easy question. As it stands, I'll leave it to the moderates (use scare quotes here) to answer.
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Old 29th August 2021, 12:10 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
What you've given us is this:

Do you still beat your wife on a regular basis? And I'll only accept a simple 'yes' or 'no' because that way, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't ...which is really my objective.

The title of your thread says it all. Do you really think we can't see what's going on here?
I don't know what you can see; I just know that you can't give a direct answer to the question posed.

And, then the question is, why are you here? To derail things?
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Old 29th August 2021, 12:15 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I don't know what you can see; I just know that you can't give a direct answer to the question posed.

And, then the question is, why are you here? To derail things?
Because there is no direct answer to such a question that would be accurate except for a Trump supporter. But I suspect you knew that when you posted it.

You seem awfully angry and defensive that you're not getting the answer I suspect you were really after.

ETA: I told you what we can see so you should know.

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Old 29th August 2021, 12:19 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Because there is no direct answer to such a question that would be accurate except for a Trump supporter. But I suspect you knew that when you posted it.

You seem awfully angry and defensive that you're not getting the answer I suspect you were really after.

ETA: I told you what we can see so you should know.
Angry and defensive...lol...ok. Just answer the question, if you can muster up the honesty to do so.
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Old 29th August 2021, 12:26 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Angry and defensive...lol...ok. Just answer the question, if you can muster up the honesty to do so.

I've already given you my answer; you just don't like it because it doesn't serve your purpose. Tough.
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Old 29th August 2021, 12:28 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Angry and defensive...lol...ok. Just answer the question, if you can muster up the honesty to do so.
Since the only answers you will accept are "LOL Democrats are pro-COVID!" or "LOL Democrats secretly love Trump!", I don't know why you're expecting anyone to engage with you on your terms.
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Old 29th August 2021, 12:30 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I've already given you my answer; you just don't like it because it doesn't serve your purpose. Tough.
I'll mark you down as a Democrat who would rather have 600,000 die than see Trump get a second term.
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Old 29th August 2021, 12:32 PM   #73
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Nobody is going to fall for your silly gotcha because it doesn’t make any sense. The choice is always going to be the world as it was with Biden or the world as it was with Trump.
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Old 29th August 2021, 12:33 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Purple Pangolin View Post
Since the only answers you will accept are "LOL Democrats are pro-COVID!" or "LOL Democrats secretly love Trump!", I don't know why you're expecting anyone to engage with you on your terms.
Yep.

Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I'll mark you down as a Democrat who would rather have 600,000 die than see Trump get a second term.
Thank you for proving exactly what we knew this thread was really all about.

Give someone enough rope.....
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Old 29th August 2021, 12:33 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
Nobody is going to fall for your silly gotcha because it doesn’t make any sense. The choice is always going to be the world as it was with Biden or the world as it was with Trump.
Avoiding the question, as most are. Too hard to give a simple, straight answer, I guess.
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Old 29th August 2021, 12:36 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post

Thank you for proving exactly what we knew this thread was really all about.
This thread is about exposing the truth...but clearly, few Dems even understand the concept.
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Old 29th August 2021, 12:37 PM   #77
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We are playing would you rather except the question is really boring.
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Old 29th August 2021, 12:37 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
I'll mark you down as a Democrat who would rather have 600,000 die than see Trump get a second term.
You have been waiting the whole thread to be able to post exactly this. It was the sole purpose of the op.

Now that you have done it, what next?
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Old 29th August 2021, 12:39 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Avoiding the question, as most are. Too hard to give a simple, straight answer, I guess.
It still eludes you that there is no simple, straight answer to your question because it's a dishonest question to begin with.

Might I suggest you walk away now before you dig the hole any deeper? Or are you going for the Golden Shovel Award?

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Old 29th August 2021, 12:40 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
You have been waiting the whole thread to be able to post exactly this. It was the sole purpose of the op.

Now that you have done it, what next?
What's next? I guess I'm still waiting for you, as a Democrat US voter, to answer the simple question that I posed.
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