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Old 22nd May 2022, 12:00 PM   #81
The Man
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
You don't agree to do work for a salary, you have no choice, you can only agree if money is not involve.
Funny, for 40 odd years I've agreed to do various jobs for various amounts of pay. Turning down some offers and even taking others for less than I was currently making. Money was always involved in the agreement but never the only deciding factor.

So you work for no money, since by your assertion above you can not agree to work for some particular wage? Also your stance above would make your cited parable pointless as it is, again, explicitly about people receiving the wages they agreed. Heck, not long ago you even agreed with that saying "Off course they agree because they have to get money"...

Again no one can agree with you if you can't simply agree with just yourself.

ETA: Every year I get my annual review, my rate of pay is always a part of that. By corporate HR policy, unless I sign that review to indicate my agreement, they can not change my rate of pay.
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Old 22nd May 2022, 12:45 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
You don't agree to do work for a salary, you have no choice, you can only agree if money is not involve.
You do have a choice. It may not be a good choice, but it is a choice. If you do not have a choice, the word for that is "slavery."

You can decide to work for nothing, but that is not likely to qualify as agreeing, since agreeing rather implies getting something in return.
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Old 22nd May 2022, 12:52 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
You do have a choice. It may not be a good choice, but it is a choice. If you do not have a choice, the word for that is "slavery."

You can decide to work for nothing, but that is not likely to qualify as agreeing, since agreeing rather implies getting something in return.
Well someone can certainly agree to let you work for them for nothing, like say an internship or as a volunteer. Heck, doubtful if you would even be let into work areas unless some kind of agreement was in place.
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Old 22nd May 2022, 01:54 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
You do have a choice. It may not be a good choice, but it is a choice. If you do not have a choice, the word for that is "slavery." .
You got it, work for money is slavery.
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Old 22nd May 2022, 02:26 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by The Man View Post
Well someone can certainly agree to let you work for them for nothing, like say an internship or as a volunteer. Heck, doubtful if you would even be let into work areas unless some kind of agreement was in place.
Sure, and I might well agree to do the job, because there is some benefit I find worthwhile. That could include the warm fuzzy feeling I get when I do something charitable, as well as the usual benefits of an such things, like acquiring experience and references.

If the kingdom of God is truly impartial, trade-free, universal and loving, then there is no agreement. You get the same thing for working as for not working, the same thing whether you accept or deny, praise the great Jehovah or tell him to **** off. If you get anything at all in return for your actions, you bob right back out to the realm of commerce.
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Old 22nd May 2022, 03:34 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
You got it, work for money is slavery.
Obviously not. If it was slavery they wouldn't need to pay you.
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Old 22nd May 2022, 04:07 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
You got it, work for money is slavery.
The workers in the parable you cited worked for money. Why did your god consider slavery "generous"?
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Old 22nd May 2022, 04:43 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by The Man View Post
The workers in the parable you cited worked for money. Why did your god consider slavery "generous"?
In Haven they aqgree to work that's the point, If Jesus said it is like that in haven it is because they agree not because they are paid, where there is a system of money you got no choice to work this is slavery. In a gift society you don't have to work and you can still have every thing your neighbour have, in a system of money you must work to get something this is slavery you have no choice the other system it is voluntary. The point is that it doesn't matter if you work one hour or 8 since you agree to work, it is voluntary, you can't complain.

Last edited by Gaetan; 22nd May 2022 at 04:55 PM.
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Old 22nd May 2022, 04:59 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
In Haven they aqgree to work that's the point, where there is a system of money you got no choice to work this is slavery. In a gift society you don't have to work and you can still have every thing your neighbour have, in a system of money you must work to get something this is slavery the other system it is voluntary.
Again the parable was not about heaven, it is a about working for wages agreed to and not being envious of another's generosity. Why does your god need people to work "In Haven"? In a gift society you only get what is gifted to you which could be nothing while your neighbor gets everything. In any system someone must work for anyone to get anything. In your no money , no system, those that do work can be the slaves of those that don't while taking everything. It is not the lack of money that turns your notion into basically a kleptocracy but instead the lack of any control of oversite.
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Old 22nd May 2022, 05:11 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by The Man View Post
Again the parable was not about heaven,
You are wrong again, Jesus said the Kingdom is like that, it doesn't matter since you worked one hour or eight since you agree and your reward is the same, you can't complain. In the kingdom injustice is not allowed.

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Old 22nd May 2022, 05:18 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
You got it, work for money is slavery.
No, you have it backwards, and are giving evidence of historical incapacity of a great dimension. Slaves have no choice, and get no salary. Despite popular expressions such as "wage slavery," true slavery is wageless. Slavery is not a theoretical idea. It is a historical fact whose character can be learned by learning some history.
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Old 22nd May 2022, 05:24 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
No, you have it backwards, and are giving evidence of historical incapacity of a great dimension. Slaves have no choice,
In a system of money you have no choice
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Old 22nd May 2022, 07:17 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
In a system of money you have no choice
Not so. You do have choices, even if they are bad ones, even if they are far too limited, and even if the best should be available but are not. Even if the choice is only to work for the man or beg on the streets, that is a choice denied the slave.

Even if you were right and life in a no-money economy resulted in better choices and more of them, and even if you were right in asserting that in a money driven economy all the choices are equally bad, you would still be utterly wrong in your assertion that in a system of money there is no choice. It's just plain wrong, and obstinately, nonsensically so.
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Old 23rd May 2022, 05:57 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
You are wrong again, Jesus said the Kingdom is like that, it doesn't matter since you worked one hour or eight since you agree and your reward is the same, you can't complain. In the kingdom injustice is not allowed.
Fantastic, so in "the Kingdom" workers get paid and need to work to survive, just like here. Again, people agree to the wages they receive here as well. Why do you complain then? Your "reward is the same" only if that is what you had agreed to and in your no money, no system notions there is no control to ensure all people get the same, or anything at all, even if that was what they agreed to. Your no money, no system notion not only encourages injustice it practically requires it.
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Old 23rd May 2022, 06:00 AM   #95
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Again people all this squares itself perfectly when you realize that Gaetan doesn't consider people who don't praise da baby jeebus as people.

Us non-believers would be the one tilling the metaphorical fields in his Utopia while all the chosen ones had their every need fulfilled so they don't have to dirty themselves with having "money."

Non-money societies always need a lower class.
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Old 23rd May 2022, 06:21 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
In a system of money you have no choice
In a pre-money system you have no choice. Hunt, gather, farm or starve. If you don't work you don't eat. It's nothing to do with money.
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Old 23rd May 2022, 06:22 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
In a system of money you have no choice
So you have never decided to take a job, turn one down or look for a new one, perhaps even ask for a raise or agree to a performance review? Inquire about changing your work schedule, getting time off or possible other benefits and choices therein?

Heck, every year I have to make choices about my benefits, my time off and even my annual performance review. Not to mention the choices I could make about seeking employment elsewhere, retiring, starting my own business or just resigning myself to the streets.

You have never decided to save or spend your money, what to spend it on or to incur debt for the things you want?

Isn't one of your whole points about the choices you make in what you consume, like foods and stuff?

Heck, I don't know anyone who hasn't had to make choices (or have them made for them) about employment and finances.

You quite literally have to make choices or either nothing will happen or things will happen just further outside your control than they need to be. As noted by bruto, while people may not like the choices available to them, that in no way mitigates the fact that choices must be made (either by them or for them) both in how one acquires and subsequently uses money.
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Old 23rd May 2022, 04:31 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by The Man View Post
Fantastic, so in "the Kingdom" workers get paid and need to work to survive, just like here. Again, people agree to the wages they receive here as well. Why do you complain then? Your "reward is the same" only if that is what you had agreed to and in your no money, no system notions there is no control to ensure all people get the same, or anything at all, even if that was what they agreed to. Your no money, no system notion not only encourages injustice it practically requires it.
Spirits don't use money, they barter in hell and work free of charge in the Kingdom.
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Old 23rd May 2022, 04:34 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by The Man View Post
So you have never decided to take a job, turn one down or look for a new one,
The only way you can turn down a job is that you have other income.
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Old 23rd May 2022, 06:00 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
The only way you can turn down a job is that you have other income.
That may be the usual condition, but when that condition is met that is exactly what one can do. Therefore, saying one cannot is false. And, of course, it is possible to turn down a job for one reason or another and not have other income. The result will generally be that one becomes poor at least for a time, with the possibility that one starves or dies, or becomes a thief. But bad as those choices are, and rare as they may be, they exist, therefore saying they don't exist is false.

And, of course, it is not all that uncommon to turn down a job in favor of a lower paying one, if one is convinced that the lower paying job is more fulfilling or less evil. The world is full of hungry artists and people who would rather do good for little than sin for much. You may find that hard to imagine and hard to fit into your muddled perception, but it happens, and with enough frequency that to say it doesn't happen would be false.
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Old 24th May 2022, 05:22 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Spirits don't use money, they barter in hell and work free of charge in the Kingdom.
And again, people did charge for their work in the parable you cited so it wasn't about your "Kingdom". Why the heck would "Spirits" have call to do any of that, "work" or "barter"? Again the discussion is about economics in the real world not some impression you have of "Spirits".
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Old 24th May 2022, 05:27 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
The only way you can turn down a job is that you have other income.
Beside what bruto has already noted, the question wasn't 'what do you think is required to turn down a job' it was "So you have never decided to take a job, turn one down or look for a new one, perhaps even ask for a raise or agree to a performance review? Inquire about changing your work schedule, getting time off or possible other benefits and choices therein?"

So have you made such choices?
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Old 24th May 2022, 09:42 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Spirits don't use money...
Spirits are just pretend.
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Old 24th May 2022, 10:03 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
Spirits are just pretend.
Ah, but so is money (fiat currency). So they are a match made in, well, heaven.
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Old Yesterday, 07:57 PM   #105
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Most women abort to save money, you would save millions of babies if you get rid of money.
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