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Old 10th November 2019, 10:25 AM   #121
Vixen
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Originally Posted by ArchSas View Post
Accents aren't comparable at all - they're usually directly tied to where a person is from. Appearance isn't. If you guys really can't understand this simple point, I don't know what else to say. This discussion is completely ridiculous to me.
That's right. You would wait to hear someone speak before knowing if they were French, German, Russian, Australian or American, etc.
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Old 10th November 2019, 10:28 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Appearance does indicate where people potentially come from. I do not just mean skin colour, but size, facial features, even how they dress.
You'd only know if someone was, say, French, is if they were wearing a stripey top, with culottes and with a string of onions around their neck, or German, if they were in lederhosen and Bavarian feathered hats, whistling Wagner.
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Old 10th November 2019, 10:34 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Yep. But when you find dead bodies in the back of a lorry with no identification papers, things like mannerisms and language are not going to help you identify those people.

That occurred to me too, although I didn't mention it. So in the UK if one says "Asian" that typically implies South Asain, doesn't it? Indian or Pakistani, perhaps Nepali? In America, people are more likely to think of East Asians, from "Asian". In the olden days people used the word "Oriental" but that's considered borderline racist nowadays, and definitely not politically correct.

I've heard from some people who seem to think that the Japanese word "gaijin" is racist, but really it just means "foreigner". I don't consider it a pejorative word myself.
I can remember when it was commonplace for people to use the word Oriental and would have denied it was the slightest bit offensive nor intended to be so. Yet, that term is no longer used because South East Asians have said they do not like it and people have taken it on board.
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Old 10th November 2019, 12:42 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You'd only know if someone was, say, French, is if they were wearing a stripey top, with culottes and with a string of onions around their neck, or German, if they were in lederhosen and Bavarian feathered hats, whistling Wagner.
Or if they were wearing designer gear or look cool or good looking.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Finnair started doing flights to the Far East via Helsinki, so Helsinki airport is often packed with SE Asians getting their connecting flights. Having shared airport lounges with young Koreans, I now recognise them as being the really trendy, cool and good-looking ones, often wearing expensive designer sportswear <g>)
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Old 10th November 2019, 12:55 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Out this way it's generally more polite to say "African American" than "black". So when (non-black) people come to a situation where they need to describe a stranger who is black, they will say "African American".
What if the stranger is black British/European, Caribbean, or - shock! - actually African?
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Old 10th November 2019, 01:45 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Well, I think it's racist. Any time you look at the color of someone's skin and apply a nationality to them, you're stereotyping them based on the color of their skin (for example).

"But that's not what racism is." Whatever. You're stereotyping based on "racial" appearance. If you have a better term for it, share with the class. If you have some idea that your term means that racially stereotyping people can't be usefully lumped together with "racism" in normal conversation, I think you're wrong.

But to be clear: I'm not in this thread to change anyone's mind. If you don't think it's racist, fine. I disagree.

I suppose you could try it some time: Find someone you think looks sufficiently "asian", and tell them to their face, "I can tell by the way you look that you're probably Chinese." See how far that gets you.

Why does it have to be negative? Why can't someone just guess wrong and be wrong? Oops!

You're racist for wrongly guessing someone's race now? Or is racist just to try? If you're correct you are not racist?

Maybe we should all be separated just to avoid hurting each others feelings.
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Old 10th November 2019, 07:08 PM   #127
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Quote:
Assuming Nationality from Appearance - Racist or Not?



Well, tell me if I am racist or not. I have been seeing my current GP monthly (ever since my last heart event) for about 8 years, and assumed either Pakistani, or perhaps, Bangladeshi. I never bothered to ask anyone.


Anyway, last year she told me that she could not see me for a couple of months as she was going home to look after her ill mother - to Malaysia. She said she was following that up with a trip to Jerusalem, as she was also Christian, which I don't hold against her.



I never asked because it was simply not important enough for me to find out, in fact it was/is not relevant. OK, I can't judge somebodies nationality from their looks, so I guess that does make me racist.



Norm
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Old 10th November 2019, 07:21 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Did you read my post in which I mentioned accents? I have a Lancashire accent but I am not from Lancashire. Many people learn English with an "American" accent, but they aren't from the USA. Making an assumption about where someone is from because they have a particular accent is exactly the same as making an assumption about where someone is from because they have a particular phenotype. Neither is bigotry.
Although you must admit that it is difficult to identify the accent of a corpse. Not great conversationalists last time I checked.
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Old 10th November 2019, 08:24 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Why does it have to be negative? Why can't someone just guess wrong and be wrong? Oops!
Correct. There is no fault with doing so.

Unless one makes value judgements on that sole basis. Then it is a fault.

Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
You're racist for wrongly guessing someone's race now? Or is racist just to try? If you're correct you are not racist?
Correct. The mere observation that some random person appears to be of south east asian origin is verboten. That south east asian could be an american national, but clearly of south east asian origin. Somehow it is racist to observe a simple fact. It is only racist if one uses such a fact to discriminate. Then it becomes racist. Personally, I find it endlessly fascinating to listen to others of any stripe, be it race or nationality or orientation or any difference whatsoever. Accepting the validity of the "other" is the very start of growth.

Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Maybe we should all be separated just to avoid hurting each others feelings.
And thus we part company. I should have known you would promote segregation. Try to climb out of the 18th century thought for once.

There is only one race, the human race. We are all in it together. Get over it.
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Old 11th November 2019, 02:05 AM   #130
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All we have here is some people's opinion it is racist and others that it is not.

I think that one of the problems is that at times, opinion is being presented as fact, as if there is some sort of official ruling that some language is racist and other language is not.

There is official, as in legal and commonly recognised standards over the use of some words to describe people, such as the "n" word.

But calling someone Chinese because they look they could be from China or another eastern (not just South East) country has no official recognition that it is unacceptable. It was an official organisation, the police, who used that language and the police are generally pretty aware of racial issues.
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Old 11th November 2019, 09:33 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Wow, that is shocking!!!
Second highlight isn’t. China has a ton of ethnic diversity.

First highlight is to me, as I had ethnically Korean friends and ethnically Japanese friends growing up. They don’t appear at all the same to me.
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Old 11th November 2019, 09:36 AM   #132
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Okay stepping back and answer the question in the broadest, most generic way I can.

Generally speaking it's not "wrong" to just acknowledge the facts that trends exist.

Not every X is Y. But if I have a room of 50 Y I'm going to probably have a statistically higher percent of X. These are not incompatible statements.

"Every X is always a Y, oh and I'm assigning a negative trait to X that I will now assign to all Ys" is where the problems start.
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Old 11th November 2019, 10:00 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
Am reminded of the King of the Hill episode where Hank's father correctly identifies Hank's neighbors as not Vietnamese, but Laotian. He then goes on to be just as horribly racist to them as he is to everybody else.
Cotton not only eyes them, but actually smells them if I remember.
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Old 11th November 2019, 10:30 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by elgarak View Post
Tell that to the Koreans' I worked with...Hell, tell that to ANYONE from (South)-East Asia who is not Chinese. (Sometimes the default goes to Japanese, like here in Düsseldorf, because there's a large Japanese community.)

Yes, they nod, and smile, and politely correct you... but they CORRECT you. Always. It bothers them. A lot. Even more so when Koreans are confused with Japanese. No wonder if you know the history. It's racist.
Then there are those who are ethnically Chinese but nationally from other countries. Such as Ronny Chieng who is ethnically Chinese but from Malaysia.
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Old 11th November 2019, 10:35 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
Scottish and English white are from the same race. To mix up one with the other or make assumptions is not racist.
As long as you are not lumping the Irish in there too, then there will be trouble.

Seriously trying to distinguish race as some kind of category outside ethnicity is crazy, as race is such a social construct it has no independent meaning. I mean when did Italians really become white anyway?
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Old 11th November 2019, 10:36 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by fromdownunder View Post


Well, tell me if I am racist or not.
The MA forbids it, actually. Besides, it's really up to you to figure out for yourself. If you're not stereotyping people based on their appearance, great. If you are, but you don't consider such stereotyping to be racist, also great. I can tell you what I think about those things, but only you can say if you are racist or not.


Quote:
I never asked because it was simply not important enough for me to find out, in fact it was/is not relevant. OK, I can't judge somebodies nationality from their looks, so I guess that does make me racist.
If you say so.
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Old 11th November 2019, 10:44 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
What a horrible thing to say. We had some Chinese interns at work a few years back. I was able to 'tell one from another' immediately, from the get-go.
Cross racial blindness is a universal though, identifying individuals of other races you were not exposed to at a young age or have lots of experience with is hard universally.

See this and its links.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-race_effect
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Old 11th November 2019, 10:58 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
All we have here is some people's opinion it is racist and others that it is not.
I have fairly broad definitions of racism compared to many peoples explicitly narrow definitions to keep it limited to only the worst and often least influential forms. But I have a difficult time seeing how this stems from biases other than who are common victims of such trafficking.
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Old 11th November 2019, 10:59 AM   #139
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I think that if another person’s race/ethnicity/nationality is something one notices or cares about, that’s at least proto-racism. Maybe not straight-up racism but a necessary precursor to racism. One would would have to ask themselves, “why is that important to me?”

Now from a law enforcement perspective, it might be necessary to know the nationality of someone in order to investigate something or enforce the law. A truck full of dead Asian people? Yeah, you might want to determine where they are from. An initial presumption that they are Chinese nationals wouldn’t necessarily be racist in that context, especially if there was a spate of this kind of thing.
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Old 11th November 2019, 11:05 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I think that if another person’s race/ethnicity/nationality is something one notices or cares about, that’s at least proto-racism. Maybe not straight-up racism but a necessary precursor to racism. One would would have to ask themselves, “why is that important to me?”
Usually because they are the ones telling me it's important to them.

(G)I can't be the bad guy, or some state of proto-bad guy, for acknowledging something that I wasn't that one brought it up.

(G)I can't acknowledge your... *random example pulled out of thin air* pride in your Irish heritage and at the same time not only not notice but somehow stay metaphysically unaware of the very fact you are Irish.

We can't celebrate our difference and not acknowledge they exist at the same time.
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Old 11th November 2019, 01:28 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Usually because they are the ones telling me it's important to them.

(G)I can't be the bad guy, or some state of proto-bad guy, for acknowledging something that I wasn't that one brought it up.

(G)I can't acknowledge your... *random example pulled out of thin air* pride in your Irish heritage and at the same time not only not notice but somehow stay metaphysically unaware of the very fact you are Irish.

We can't celebrate our difference and not acknowledge they exist at the same time.
I'm trying to get at something more fundamental. What you are describing is more about when you are getting to know someone. What I am talking about is more along the lines of first impressions. If, upon encountering someone you don't know, one of your first questions about them is "what is their race/nationality/ethnicity," that's what I would consider to be "proto-racist."

Once you've (generally) met someone and you find out she's really proud of being Irish, that's a different thing. It would be weird not to acknowledge her Irish pride. But even then . . . does finding out she's Irish change the way you perceive or feel about the person? If so, why?
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Old 11th November 2019, 01:50 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I'm trying to get at something more fundamental. What you are describing is more about when you are getting to know someone. What I am talking about is more along the lines of first impressions. If, upon encountering someone you don't know, one of your first questions about them is "what is their race/nationality/ethnicity," that's what I would consider to be "proto-racist."

Once you've (generally) met someone and you find out she's really proud of being Irish, that's a different thing. It would be weird not to acknowledge her Irish pride. But even then . . . does finding out she's Irish change the way you perceive or feel about the person? If so, why?
It doesn't. But, in recent years, if I don't take the "unique challenges that Irish people have faced and respect them" I'm wrong and need to "check my privilege."

I can't win if I treat a black person as a black person, but I can't win if I don't acknowledge the difficulties in being a black person.

Can't win, can't lose, can't break even, can't quit the game.
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Old 11th November 2019, 03:15 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Cross racial blindness is a universal though, identifying individuals of other races you were not exposed to at a young age or have lots of experience with is hard universally.

See this and its links.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-race_effect
When I did my psychology degree, current studies (then) showed that the first thing you notice about someone on meeting them as a stranger is (a) their sex and then (b) their ethnicity. Noticing someone's ethnicity is something everybody does. A thing is neither good nor bad but thinking makes it so. Other studies showed that people who grew up in a racist environment are particularly sensitive to 'race'. For example, for a white South African 'race' was the first thing they noticed about others and could often tell a person's 'race' at five paces. Not much different from Nazi Germans being able to 'spot the Jew' because of , well, just about any reason their fevered imaginations could come up with, so in that sense a 'racist' is more 'alert' if you like, to ethnicity.

It is not necessarily negative because when asked to rate pictures of varying 'races' subjects actually rated 'other' ethnicities as slightly more attractive than the norm, albeit in a limited study.
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Old 11th November 2019, 03:19 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It doesn't. But, in recent years, if I don't take the "unique challenges that Irish people have faced and respect them" I'm wrong and need to "check my privilege."

I can't win if I treat a black person as a black person, but I can't win if I don't acknowledge the difficulties in being a black person.

Can't win, can't lose, can't break even, can't quit the game.
How on earth does one 'treat a black person as a black person'?
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Old 11th November 2019, 03:59 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You came along and said you couldn't tell one from another.
Wrong. That is not what I said. Misrepresenting me yet again.

What I said was that I could not distinguish one nationality from the other, not that "they all look the same to me".

I cannot fathom what level of obtuseness you apparently choose to cling to, but I will make it as simple as I can.

Two SE asians are introduced to me. Let's call them Jim and Bob.

With me so far? Or is it already too difficult for you.

I have no problem distinguishing Jim from Bob as individuals because, well, they are unique individuals.

Following along so far? I don't want to rush you.

I am provided with the following data point. One is, say, Korean and the other is Japanese.

Can I determine which is which? And the honest answer is no, because I have not the cultural cues that might allow me to make such a determination.

But they do. This is nothing more than a lack of necessary background data. I simply don't have the information to determine if Bob is Japanese and Jim Korean or vice versa.

But Bob and Jim are still unique individuals, I simply cannot determine their exact nationality because I have no means to do so.

Somehow, you have purloined this simple absence of criteria into the frankly outrageous claim that I have stated that "they all look the same to me".

I am sorely tried to understand why such a simple idea completely evades you.
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Old 11th November 2019, 04:01 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
How on earth does one 'treat a black person as a black person'?
As a person. Obviously.
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Old 13th November 2019, 01:19 PM   #147
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Mod Warning There is a thread to discuss what Essex Police said, were reported to have said, and did not say in relation to the people found dead in a container recently. To be clear, this thread is not that thread. Please ensure you stay on topic.
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