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Old 15th November 2019, 04:09 AM   #1961
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
What else is there? We're talking about policies that can attract major business in the timescale of a couple of decades at most.
"Hey, English businesses. Come to Scotland and get back in the EU."
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Old 15th November 2019, 04:10 AM   #1962
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
The problem will be he overspill from those failed states onto their neighbours.

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Scotland is underpopulated and English people who want to be Scottish are not any sort of problem. It could be a matter of scale and timing I suppose.

I think people are forgetting where this started. There was a suggestion (also see the Mitch Benn song I posted a little while ago, that "failed states" - in this context we were talking about post-Brexit England - might haemorrhage population to their more attractive neighbours - in this case a newly independent Scotland in the EU.

I commented that I thought we could cope because we are underpopulated in historical terms. This seems to have turned into a "yah boo sucks nobody could possibly want to come and live in Scotland!"

Well, suit yourselves. We'll cope either way. Just so long as we can break free from the boot of the car where we're struggling biound and gagged while England drives it over the Brexit cliff.
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Old 15th November 2019, 04:20 AM   #1963
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Scotland has a well-educated, highly skilled, English speaking population and a relatively competitive cost of living (and hence wages etc are reasonably low)
So does Ireland and much of the broader region. Any other ideas?

Quote:
What it doesn't have is a Westminster government interested in improving its lot. In fact quite the opposite, both Labour and Tory are invested in seeing Scotland not succeed while the SNP are in power in Holyrood.
The hypothetical is, I presume, an independent Scotland.

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Old 15th November 2019, 04:22 AM   #1964
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
"Hey, English businesses. Come to Scotland and get back in the EU."
That might work. Enough to make Scotland quite wealthy on the per capita basis at least. If just 5% of business from little England moved that would be an enormous gain to Scotland and allow the country to take in 1-2 million economic refugees from little England, beginning the repopulation.

The next step would likely be a ban on emigration, contraception and mandatory monthly mating for all females aged 19-39. If you want to seriously repopulate the country that's the way to go. Side effects may be worse than depopulation though.

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Old 15th November 2019, 04:26 AM   #1965
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
I spent three weeks straight in Scotland and the only memorable food was in a Chinese buffet in Aberdeen.
Hopefully not derailing, but this is a very narrow view of Scottish cuisine.

Scotland has some of the finest raw ingredients in the UK, arguably the world in certain niche areas, and the quality of Scottish food is actually incredibly good, if you go looking for it.

Yeah, there are dodgy fish & chip shops, chicken outlets and lacklustre pub fare just like everywhere else, but there are also incredible restaurants and cafes based around local ingredients as well a diverse range of global food trends.

I can understand why people might not want to live in Scotland, each to their own, but criticising the food is, I think, to fall back on cliche.
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Old 15th November 2019, 04:28 AM   #1966
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Many businesses have already relocated to Dublin so one can easily imagine that Scotland could get some of that cake if the situation in England continues to deteriorate post-Brexit. You may be a little late to the party, though, depending on how soon you can er... Scoxit. Still, leftovers are better than nothing!
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Old 15th November 2019, 04:30 AM   #1967
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Originally Posted by Worm View Post
Hopefully not derailing, but this is a very narrow view of Scottish cuisine.

Scotland has some of the finest raw ingredients in the UK, arguably the world in certain niche areas, and the quality of Scottish food is actually incredibly good, if you go looking for it.

Yeah, there are dodgy fish & chip shops, chicken outlets and lacklustre pub fare just like everywhere else, but there are also incredible restaurants and cafes based around local ingredients as well a diverse range of global food trends.

I can understand why people might not want to live in Scotland, each to their own, but criticising the food is, I think, to fall back on cliche.
It's my personal experience, not a cliche. It might be a false impression, it might also be outdated. I also stayed away from large cities, it was mostly the Shetlands, Fair isle, Inverness and sorrounding areas, Isle of Skye, those parts. They're the very definition of a backwater, it's understandable if such regions have underwhelming cuisine. But near as I can tell, that's also the part Rolfe wants to repopulate.

The place was lovely to visit and I'll probably go again someday, but I wouldn't live there without major additional incentives.

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Old 15th November 2019, 04:40 AM   #1968
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
That might work. Enough to make Scotland quite wealthy on the per capita basis at least. If just 5% of business from little England moved that would be an enormous gain to Scotland and allow the country to take in 1-2 million economic refugees from little England, beginning the repopulation.

The next step would likely be a ban on emigration, contraception and mandatory monthly mating for all females aged 19-39. If you want to seriously repopulate the country that's the way to go. Side effects may be worse than depopulation though.i

Who said we were desperate to repopulate the country? All this started because I remarked that if circumstances did materialise where a substantial number of English people decided they wanted to come here (and Mitch Benn is far from the only one posting on Twitter that he wants to do that), we could probably cope just fine.
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Old 15th November 2019, 04:46 AM   #1969
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Eh, I don't know. Don't get me wrong, Scotland is a lovely place to visit. But to live there?

I don't know about you (Finnis perspective is different, I'm sure), but if I live near the sea, I don't want it to be so cold as to be outright painful in the summer. I also don't want several meters of rain per year. I spent three weeks straight in Scotland and the only memorable food was in a Chinese buffet in Aberdeen. No thank you. Scotland is a lovely place to visit, but I'd find it a miserable place to live.

Call me spoiled but that's how I see it.

Rolfe will probably disagree but to each his own.

McHrozni
Personally, I loved Scotland as a holiday (chalet in Galloway) and the light quality in nearby Kirkcudbrightshire was amazing: I could see why artists were attracted there. My son was at Edinburgh Uni for a masters and also at Strathclyde in Glasgow for a short research period and I can't say I liked it much, apart from the museums and natural park where we saw two tawny owls watching us.

Couldn't live there because I couldn't bear to live in a stone house which seems to be the norm there.

If the Breixt Party and Bojo succeed in their plans for a no-deal Brexit, I can see why Scotland would want to break away, because (a) they have the natural wealth of North Sea oli and (b) Westminster will be even more remote to Scottish interests, who want to stay in the EU. It'll break away and it has all the means to become a sovereign state in its own right.
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Old 15th November 2019, 04:48 AM   #1970
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
So more generalisations and che4rry-picking?
And your counter argument is...?
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Old 15th November 2019, 04:50 AM   #1971
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Originally Posted by Worm View Post
Hopefully not derailing, but this is a very narrow view of Scottish cuisine.

Scotland has some of the finest raw ingredients in the UK, arguably the world in certain niche areas, and the quality of Scottish food is actually incredibly good, if you go looking for it.

Yeah, there are dodgy fish & chip shops, chicken outlets and lacklustre pub fare just like everywhere else, but there are also incredible restaurants and cafes based around local ingredients as well a diverse range of global food trends.

I can understand why people might not want to live in Scotland, each to their own, but criticising the food is, I think, to fall back on cliche.
Here endeth the commercial break.
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Old 15th November 2019, 04:52 AM   #1972
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Originally Posted by Ulf Nereng View Post
You may be a little late to the party, though, depending on how soon you can er... Scoxit.
Screnter, surely?

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Old 15th November 2019, 05:08 AM   #1973
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Who said we were desperate to repopulate the country? All this started because I remarked that if circumstances did materialise where a substantial number of English people decided they wanted to come here (and Mitch Benn is far from the only one posting on Twitter that he wants to do that), we could probably cope just fine.
I got that impression from when you said:
"we want to build up the population in the places that were artificially depopulated, which is pretty much the entire country with the exception of the central belt."

If you meant something else you'll have to ask you to forgive me

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Personally, I loved Scotland as a holiday (chalet in Galloway) and the light quality in nearby Kirkcudbrightshire was amazing: I could see why artists were attracted there. My son was at Edinburgh Uni for a masters and also at Strathclyde in Glasgow for a short research period and I can't say I liked it much, apart from the museums and natural park where we saw two tawny owls watching us.
It's a great holiday destination, I agree. In that it's much like Iceland, which I'd find unbearable for very similar, but significantly magnified reasons.

Quote:
If the Breixt Party and Bojo succeed in their plans for a no-deal Brexit, I can see why Scotland would want to break away, because (a) they have the natural wealth of North Sea oli and (b) Westminster will be even more remote to Scottish interests, who want to stay in the EU. It'll break away and it has all the means to become a sovereign state in its own right.
Yup. A no-deal Brexit will also mean the end of the Union, it's just a matter of time.

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Old 15th November 2019, 05:13 AM   #1974
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
So does Ireland and much of the broader region. Any other ideas?

The hypothetical is, I presume, an independent Scotland.

McHrozni
Ireland is a small country. There is more than enough business to go around.

And Dublin isn't all that affordable anymore.
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Old 15th November 2019, 05:18 AM   #1975
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
I got that impression from when you said:
"we want to build up the population in the places that were artificially depopulated, which is pretty much the entire country with the exception of the central belt."

If you meant something else you'll have to ask you to forgive me

That was a general expression of aspiration, over time. An aspiration which means we can be accommodating of people who decide they want to come and live here. Not an imperative to start a breeding programme!

Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
It's a great holiday destination, I agree. In that it's much like Iceland, which I'd find unbearable for very similar, but significantly magnified reasons.

If I could get Icelandic citizenship, there's a pretty good chance I'd move there if we don't get independence pretty soon. But paradoxically Brexit itself will strip me of the right to live there.

We're all different. Just because you like being half-melted all the time doesn't mean everyone is like that. I think warmer places are fine for a holiday but working in these temperatures is not my idea of fun. I lived and worked in the south of England for 25 years and while it was nice at times, it was too bloody hot to work and I hated the way everything green started to turn brown in about mid-July. Depressing.
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Old 15th November 2019, 05:36 AM   #1976
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Ireland is a small country. There is more than enough business to go around.

And Dublin isn't all that affordable anymore.
Maybe. But Ireland also has the entire legal infrastructure set up and is more than able to win the race to the bottom, if it comes to that. It's also well equipped to preempt any such attempts if Scotlands wants to rejoin the EU.

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
That was a general expression of aspiration, over time. An aspiration which means we can be accommodating of people who decide they want to come and live here. Not an imperative to start a breeding programme!
Ok

Quote:
If I could get Icelandic citizenship, there's a pretty good chance I'd move there if we don't get independence pretty soon. But paradoxically Brexit itself will strip me of the right to live there.

We're all different. Just because you like being half-melted all the time doesn't mean everyone is like that. I think warmer places are fine for a holiday but working in these temperatures is not my idea of fun. I lived and worked in the south of England for 25 years and while it was nice at times, it was too bloody hot to work and I hated the way everything green started to turn brown in about mid-July. Depressing.
I have a higher melting point than you, apparently. Salt helps

It is true though that everyone is different, but you stick out of the average. There's nothing wrong with that, but remember the whole reason why we engaged in this semi-derail: Scottish climate chases far more people away than it attracts. It seems quite relevant if you wish to attact immigrants.

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Old 15th November 2019, 06:36 AM   #1977
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It's all personal of course but in terms of liveability I would generally prefer Scotland to most places in England, even though I am stuck in England for the time being.

There are some proper dumps in Scotland but the same can be said of anywhere. One thing I like about Scotland is the accessibility of stuff. Other than the real highlands and islands areas nothing is really too remote and you can get access to pretty much all of the country within a day trip.

Compared to Ireland you have 3 or 4 cities of a reasonable size rather than just 1 or 2 at a push.

I saw criticism of the food which is odd as Scotland has some of the best produce you can find. Fresh meat, seafood, fish, vegetables etc.

The weather isn't great but I don't find much difference between Scotland and England or Ireland in that respect. The weather is all much of a muchness. If you want warm weather you would look to Southern Europe but they have their own problems there.

The downside of Scotland for me has always generally been the lack of employment opportunities outside of certain sectors and that has been what has generally taken me away.

I would much rather live in Scotland than England given the choice. But on a global basis I can think of places I would rather be.
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Old 15th November 2019, 09:30 AM   #1978
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
And your counter argument is...?
Waiting for you to support your points and claims.
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Old 15th November 2019, 11:11 AM   #1979
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Originally Posted by Worm View Post
Hopefully not derailing, but this is a very narrow view of Scottish cuisine.

Scotland has some of the finest raw ingredients in the UK, arguably the world in certain niche areas, and the quality of Scottish food is actually incredibly good, if you go looking for it.

Yeah, there are dodgy fish & chip shops, chicken outlets and lacklustre pub fare just like everywhere else, but there are also incredible restaurants and cafes based around local ingredients as well a diverse range of global food trends.

I can understand why people might not want to live in Scotland, each to their own, but criticising the food is, I think, to fall back on cliche.
Agreed, I married and honeymooned in Scotland and the food (in hotels and foodie pubs) was very good.
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Old 15th November 2019, 11:25 AM   #1980
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
That happens everywhere. But the issues facing the smaller communities in Norway are nothing like the problems in Scotland, even though the geography of Norway is far more adverse.
Let's see: unemployed people who lost their jobs when the local fishing industry become uncompetitive.


Quote:
Scotland is "more southern latitudes" from the point of view of Scandinavia. Why do you think the county right up to the north of Scotland is called "Sutherland"?
And Scandinavia has a low population density (with the exception of Demark), with populations being centred on the coastlines and the southern parts. It gets even better if include the Nordic countries, because Iceland is a great example of a country that has pretty much everything going for it, yet very few people seek to live there even after food security ceased to be a issue.
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Old 18th November 2019, 05:46 AM   #1981
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Surprisingly, Vixen has posted something relevant.

Scotland was subjected to severe depopulation in the late 18th and 19th centuries, for a number of reasons. In comparative terms, at the time of the union in 1707 Scotland contained (from memory) about 28% of the population of the brand new UK, that is with 33% of the land mass. Now that 33% of the land mass contains only something like 8.6% of the population. Scotland's population remained almost static at about 5 million throughout the 20th century and has only recently (in fact since the establishment of the Scottish parliament) begun to grow a bit. If it had grown as projected we'd have about 8 million people by now.

People have written about the so-called remote areas of Scotland, comparing them to geographically similar places in for example Norway. While Norway has thriving communities, Scotland has ankle-high stone foundations of ruined dwellings, hidden among the grass and heather.

We need and want more people. The problem is of course that people need infrastructure and that doesn't spring fully-created overnight. But it would be a nice problem to have, rather than the Westminster government deporting people with young families who have chosen to make their lives running a small business in a struggling small community because they only employed one person rather than two.
And of course the Home office have deported some people who were contributing to Island communities because they were immigrants who weren't earning enough - even though they were paying into the exchequer and also contributing to the local economy and services.

Almost as though that's a really stupid - and nasty - policy.
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Old 18th November 2019, 06:56 AM   #1982
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
And of course the Home office have deported some people who were contributing to Island communities because they were immigrants who weren't earning enough - even though they were paying into the exchequer and also contributing to the local economy and services.

Almost as though that's a really stupid - and nasty - policy.

Yes, I mentioned that earlier. Not just island communities but mainland communities in the Highlands. People who wanted to be there, were providing services that made the community a more attractive place to live, and were contributing to the economy. Deported to Australia and Canada, among other places.

The rules seem set so that you have to be a high-flying entrepreneur in order to stay. Someone running a tea shop or a gift shop, employing maybe one other person, everyone washing their faces and paying their rates and taxes, isn't good enough. Away with you! So the shop premises lie empty, the employee loses her job, the village loses an amenity, the state loses the rates and taxes, and the people lose their investment. But that's what the Home Office wants.

There was also the Canadian woman who was the only applicant for a teaching post somewhere on the islands which required Gaelic. (Gaelic is spoken in some parts of Canada.) She was refused a visa, even though the local authority tried to make a case that she was well qualified for the job and they couldn't fill the post otherwise. Nonsense, said the Home Office. We want no Canadians here.

Why is anyone surprised that half the Scottish population wants shot of Westminster?
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Old 18th November 2019, 06:59 AM   #1983
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Originally Posted by Worm View Post
Hopefully not derailing, but this is a very narrow view of Scottish cuisine.

Scotland has some of the finest raw ingredients in the UK, arguably the world in certain niche areas, and the quality of Scottish food is actually incredibly good, if you go looking for it.

Yeah, there are dodgy fish & chip shops, chicken outlets and lacklustre pub fare just like everywhere else, but there are also incredible restaurants and cafes based around local ingredients as well a diverse range of global food trends.

I can understand why people might not want to live in Scotland, each to their own, but criticising the food is, I think, to fall back on cliche.
Why it is the home of chicken tikka masal.
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Old 18th November 2019, 10:43 AM   #1984
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
And of course the Home office have deported some people who were contributing to Island communities because they were immigrants who weren't earning enough - even though they were paying into the exchequer and also contributing to the local economy and services.

Almost as though that's a really stupid - and nasty - policy.
I think the sad reality is that it's ultimately the result of laziness - going for the low-hanging fruit. It's notable that in the London Review of Books article I cited in the Grenfell thread, it says that Home Office staff on the ground were ignoring orders May's amnesty for anyone affected.
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