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Tags !!Mod Box , health care

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Old 15th March 2019, 07:24 AM   #41
bluesjnr
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Originally Posted by Dabop View Post
um 19th???

UK
(The United Kingdom, made up of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland)
You make my point so well, all the while having the temerity to "Um" at me.

Priceless.

Now, can you please answer my question? Please show me where England are on the chart?

Last edited by bluesjnr; 15th March 2019 at 07:26 AM.
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Old 15th March 2019, 03:42 PM   #42
p0lka
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Originally Posted by Dabop View Post
um 19th???

UK
(The United Kingdom, made up of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland)
England is on the chart as much as massachusetts is.
It's not.

Last edited by p0lka; 15th March 2019 at 03:43 PM.
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Old 16th March 2019, 02:06 PM   #43
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Mod Warning Derail moved to AAH. Keep to the topic of this thread.
Posted By:Darat
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Old 16th March 2019, 02:14 PM   #44
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It actually annoys me that I was born in england, my mums side are all scots and my dads side are all irish and they came to england because of opportunities re: steelworks stuff.

And now I get lumped in with the english point of view....daily mail etc.

Na Clearly not me and i'm a bit salty about it.

Last edited by p0lka; 16th March 2019 at 02:19 PM.
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Old 16th March 2019, 07:35 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
You make my point so well, all the while having the temerity to "Um" at me.

Priceless.

Now, can you please answer my question? Please show me where England are on the chart?
Points again... its ranked at 19th...
Same as London is ranked at 19th, Manchester is ranked at 19th, Edinburgh is ranked at 19th, Wales is ranked at 19th, Scotland is ranked at 19th...

So question answered...

(A part of a single entity is considered part of that entity obviously)
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Old 16th March 2019, 08:39 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Dabop View Post
Points again... its ranked at 19th...
Same as London is ranked at 19th, Manchester is ranked at 19th, Edinburgh is ranked at 19th, Wales is ranked at 19th, Scotland is ranked at 19th...

So question answered...

(A part of a single entity is considered part of that entity obviously)
Good to see that Melbourne is at number 7.
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Old 16th March 2019, 10:17 PM   #47
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So is Brisbakers apparently...
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Old 17th March 2019, 03:56 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
Can we trust Cuba's Health stats?
No.
https://www.quora.com/Can-we-believe...alth-statistic
Actually this does not support your assertion. E.g.
Quote:
"Cuba does have a very low infant mortality rate, but pregnant women are treated with very authoritarian tactics to maintain these favorable statistics," said Tassie Katherine
So one source in this anecdotal based opinion piece actually says the infant mortality rates are genuinely low. Other supporting evidence is a US researcher having their hotel room broken into! This site does not provide evidence for the unreliability just the option of people who may like portland atheist have a political belief that things in Cuba cannot be good because it is is Cuba.
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Old 17th March 2019, 04:00 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
I suspect it's called 'caring'.

I'm type 1 diabetic,
when I see american type 1 diabetics having to worry about the costs of insulin vials etc, which they literally need to stay alive, then I shed a tear.

I pay nothing for mine.
For those who want a bit of background on p0lka's post;
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-47491964
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Old 17th March 2019, 04:06 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
You make my point so well, all the while having the temerity to "Um" at me.

Priceless.

Now, can you please answer my question? Please show me where England are on the chart?
Given that health in England is a bit better than Scotland and Wales and NI it would tend to be a bit better than 19th, but given that the population of the UK is 90% English the UK stat really predominantly reflects health in England.
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Old 17th March 2019, 05:14 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
For those who want a bit of background on p0lka's post;
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-47491964

Dreadful!

Quote:
"People spend most of their life in fear of losing their insurance, of running out of insulin and the cost going up, or of having to stay in terrible jobs or relationships to ensure they keep their health insurance coverage," Ms Rowley tells me. "That's the best case scenario."

All in all, I'd probably rather be a diabetic in Cuba than in the USA. The U.S. embargo of Cuba seems to be harming diabetics in both countries:

Quote:
In the morning, the nurse works in the office. In the afternoon, nurses and physicians (either alone or in teams) visit patients in the home through scheduled and unscheduled visits. Nurses provide care to many different types of patients, from new mothers to elderly grandparents. They administer medications, such as insulin and immunizations, and provide education on home environment, hygiene, and disease prevention.
Two American nurses visit Cuba’s healthcare system (American Nurse Today, Feb. 2016)

Quote:
Type 1 patients are treated in level II and III facilities where they have access to insulin. Glybenclamide was the only sulfonylurea available for the treatment of type 2 diabetes; neither metformin nor glitazones are available due to expense. Countries importing medicines to Cuba violate the U.S. embargo against Cuba and face fines and restrictions on trade with the United States for the next 6 months.
Care of Common Endocrine Problems in Cuba (Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, May 1, 2004)

Quote:
Diabetes, if not adequately controlled, can cut people’s life span by a dozen years, said Raíces. But the Cuban program, he said, has shortened the life span reduction to only 1.2 years.
Cuba exports medicine to dozens of countries. It would like the U.S. to be one of them (Miami Herald, Dec. 14, 2017)

Quote:
I know a couple of diabetics in Cuba, including one in my family. Never heard of insulin not being available. Glucose strips and readers... forget about it......bring your own.
Insulin availability in Cuba (Lonely Planet, 2016)

New Cuban technology to control diabetes (Granma, July 23, 2014)
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Old 17th March 2019, 12:50 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Given that health in England is a bit better than Scotland and Wales and NI it would tend to be a bit better than 19th, but given that the population of the UK is 90% English the UK stat really predominantly reflects health in England.
Yes, I know but can you show me where England are ranked in the chart?

Mgidm86 insists people should stop emigrating to the US and should instead go the England. I asked him to show me where the data was for this advice, can you point me to it?

You should by now know that I am fully aware of the make up of the UK (being a citizen n'all) and furthermore, being Scottish, know only too well how my country fares in other health charts and in comparison to the rest of the UK and Europe but I am really interested why mgidm86 picked England from all the other European countries? Where did he get the data?

Last edited by bluesjnr; 17th March 2019 at 12:52 PM.
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Old 17th March 2019, 12:51 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Dabop View Post
Points again... its ranked at 19th...
Same as London is ranked at 19th, Manchester is ranked at 19th, Edinburgh is ranked at 19th, Wales is ranked at 19th, Scotland is ranked at 19th...

So question answered...

(A part of a single entity is considered part of that entity obviously)
That STILL isn't the point I was making nor does it answer the question I asked.
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Old 17th March 2019, 01:33 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Yes, I know but can you show me where England are ranked in the chart?
That question has already been answered. As a region in the UK, England is included in the UK's ranking of 19th.

Quote:
Mgidm86 insists people should stop emigrating to the US and should instead go the England. I asked him to show me where the data was for this advice, can you point me to it?
It seemed like a somewhat flippant remark to me. I'm not really sure why you are so hung up on it.

Quote:
You should by now know that I am fully aware of the make up of the UK (being a citizen n'all) and furthermore, being Scottish, know only too well how my country fares in other health charts and in comparison to the rest of the UK and Europe
Well then you'll know that healthcare in Scotland is one of the things under the control of the devolved Scottish government. Arguably that means Scotland and England (and Wales) should be treated separately in this ranking, but they weren't.


Quote:
but I am really interested why mgidm86 picked England from all the other European countries? Where did he get the data?
That seems like a pretty trivial point to me. It would be like if I told some British people to emigrate to California and somebody from Massachusetts demanded to know why I said "California" and not "the USA".

Last edited by jeremyp; 17th March 2019 at 01:34 PM. Reason: Missing end quote
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Old 17th March 2019, 03:58 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Quote:
"Cuba does have a very low infant mortality rate, but pregnant women are treated with very authoritarian tactics to maintain these favorable statistics," said Tassie Katherine
So one source in this anecdotal based opinion piece actually says the infant mortality rates are genuinely low. Other supporting evidence is a US researcher having their hotel room broken into! This site does not provide evidence for the unreliability just the option of people who may like portland atheist have a political belief that things in Cuba cannot be good because it is is Cuba.
Actually there's another reason why infant mortality in Cuba may be so low... because of the way they determine what a still birth is.

If a baby is born severely prematurely (or with a low birth weight) in Cuba, it is counted as a still-birth. On the other hand, a baby born at the same point of pregnancy in the U.S. would be counted as a live birth (possibly followed by a death), even if the chance of survival was low. This has a couple of side effects:
- It increases the statistic for infant mortality in the U.S. (as compared to other countries)
- It decreases the statistics for life expectancy (since dying in your first few days tends to decrease average)
- It increases costs of the health care system, since trying to keep severely underweight babies alive is expensive

https://www.prb.org/prematurebirths/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/physici.../#227a664b31f0

https://www.jstor.org/stable/2448726...n_tab_contents

Note: That doesn't mean that there aren't problems with the U.S. system. Just that the suggestion "The U.S. trails Cuba in infant morality" may be incorrect.
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Old 17th March 2019, 05:57 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
That STILL isn't the point I was making nor does it answer the question I asked.
Questioned asked and answered...

What point you were making (if any) seems to be decidedly unclear

Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Can you show me where England ranks in the chart?
Looking back, this is the only question you asked...

To which I answered

Originally Posted by Dabop View Post
um 19th???

UK
(The United Kingdom, made up of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland)
And with that (unless you want to actually make a point), I will leave it as it is decidedly unproductive to continue to argue with 'na huh'
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Old 18th March 2019, 01:26 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Dabop View Post
Questioned asked and answered...

What point you were making (if any) seems to be decidedly unclear



Looking back, this is the only question you asked...

To which I answered



And with that (unless you want to actually make a point), I will leave it as it is decidedly unproductive to continue to argue with 'na huh'
If an aggregate of England, Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland means "England" then I'm buggered as to how that comes about?

Last edited by bluesjnr; 18th March 2019 at 01:47 AM.
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Old 18th March 2019, 01:32 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Actually there's another reason why infant mortality in Cuba may be so low... because of the way they determine what a still birth is.

If a baby is born severely prematurely (or with a low birth weight) in Cuba, it is counted as a still-birth. On the other hand, a baby born at the same point of pregnancy in the U.S. would be counted as a live birth (possibly followed by a death), even if the chance of survival was low. This has a couple of side effects:
- It increases the statistic for infant mortality in the U.S. (as compared to other countries)
- It decreases the statistics for life expectancy (since dying in your first few days tends to decrease average)
- It increases costs of the health care system, since trying to keep severely underweight babies alive is expensive

https://www.prb.org/prematurebirths/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/physici.../#227a664b31f0

https://www.jstor.org/stable/2448726...n_tab_contents

Note: That doesn't mean that there aren't problems with the U.S. system. Just that the suggestion "The U.S. trails Cuba in infant morality" may be incorrect.
The problem is not that the Infant Mortality rate in Cuba is low. It is not low; it is worse than most of Europe and the more developed nations in Asia. Cuba's IMR does not stand out as odd.

Your problem is that Cuba (hiss, boo) has a better mortality rate than the USA. It is just not possible for you to accept that a socialist dictatorship might result in better health for its people than the USA.

The exceptional country is the USA. Its health outcomes are inappropriately bad; especially compared to health expenditure in the US. Read the link to the BBC article about insulin issues in the US I posted above. Insulin was discovered in Canada, 2/3 of the companies supplying the US are European. The cost of insulin is much higher in the US than in Europe or Canada or Mexico. The US health care system is broken; carrying on trying to do the same thing that does not work seems the definition of idiocy.
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Old 18th March 2019, 01:43 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
That question has already been answered. As a region in the UK, England is included in the UK's ranking of 19th.
But not represented as England, it appears under the correct frame of reference which is the UK. The data is an aggregate of all four home nations and does not reflect England as a single entity


Quote:
It seemed like a somewhat flippant remark to me. I'm not really sure why you are so hung up on it.
You are absolutely correct and my response was (originally) meant in the same vein. It seems that others posters couldn't parse this lighthearted reminder to our cousins across the pond that the UK IS NOT ******* England and went all out "Ummmm" on me.


Quote:
Well then you'll know that healthcare in Scotland is one of the things under the control of the devolved Scottish government. Arguably that means Scotland and England (and Wales) should be treated separately in this ranking, but they weren't.
Indeed


Quote:
That seems like a pretty trivial point to me. It would be like if I told some British people to emigrate to California and somebody from Massachusetts demanded to know why I said "California" and not "the USA".
It is supremely trivial but I've got the time.....

Your analogy fails because California is part of the US, as is Massachusetts. England is most decidedly not part of Scotland, Northern Ireland or Wales, in fact it is entirely separate. To be precise it is another country within the land mass of the United Kingdom. Here in Scotland we have our own bank notes, laws, government, centuries old customs and language just to mention a few things to help drive home my point.

I'm pretty sure you wouldn't class Germany as France so why do it with England and Scotland, for example.

And with that, I'm out.

Last edited by bluesjnr; 18th March 2019 at 01:48 AM.
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Old 18th March 2019, 08:48 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Quote:
Actually there's another reason why infant mortality in Cuba may be so low... because of the way they determine what a still birth is.

If a baby is born severely prematurely (or with a low birth weight) in Cuba, it is counted as a still-birth. On the other hand, a baby born at the same point of pregnancy in the U.S. would be counted as a live birth (possibly followed by a death), even if the chance of survival was low.
The problem is not that the Infant Mortality rate in Cuba is low. It is not low; it is worse than most of Europe and the more developed nations in Asia. Cuba's IMR does not stand out as odd.

Your problem is that Cuba (hiss, boo) has a better mortality rate than the USA.
Uhhh... no. As I pointed out, whatever 'statistics' that show Cuba has a better mortality rate are affected by factors that artificially make Cuba look better than the U.S.

By the way, in case you think its just me being a "proud American", I'm not... I'm actually Canadian. So, in theory it shouldn't matter to me either way which system is "better".

I also want to point out that I am not absolving the U.S. system of its problems. There are things it needs to fix. It does rank near the bottom of various health care rankings when compared to other countries in the western world... I just don't think you need to compare it to an incorrectly-assessed Cuban system to make the point. Compare it to the U.K. Compare it to Switzerland. Compare it to Sweden. Those are the relevant comparisons. Don't compare it to Cuba, where whatever statistics you get are questionable and the government can take certain authoritarian steps to "fix" what it sees are problems.
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Old 18th March 2019, 04:01 PM   #61
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I guess you just can't trust the CIA when it's about Cuba:

Cuba:
Quote:
Infant mortality rate: total: 4.4 deaths/1,000 live births
male: 4.9 deaths/1,000 live births
female: 3.9 deaths/1,000 live births (2017 est.)
Definition: This entry gives the number of deaths of infants under one year old in a given year per 1,000 live births in the same year. This rate is often used as an indicator of the level of health in a country.
Source: CIA World Factbook - This page was last updated on January 20, 2018
Infant mortality rate: Cuba (Index Mundi)

USA:
Quote:
Infant mortality rate: total: 5.8 deaths/1,000 live births
male: 6.3 deaths/1,000 live births
female: 5.3 deaths/1,000 live births (2017 est.)
Definition: This entry gives the number of deaths of infants under one year old in a given year per 1,000 live births in the same year. This rate is often used as an indicator of the level of health in a country.
Source: CIA World Factbook - This page was last updated on January 20, 2018
Infant mortality rate: USA (Index Mundi)

Compare country: Cuba-USA (Index Mundi)
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Last edited by dann; 18th March 2019 at 04:03 PM.
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Old 19th March 2019, 07:51 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I guess you just can't trust the CIA when it's about Cuba:
Infant mortality rate: total: 4.4 deaths/1,000 live births

USA:
Infant mortality rate: total: 5.8 deaths/1,000 live births

Source: CIA World Factbook
Yes, the CIA did report that. But I rather suspect that they are basing data on information provided by government sources. (I doubt very much whether the CIA is sending field agents to cuba to count the number of babies born.)

Granted, the actual source of the data isn't easily found in any of the references, but they do have this on their web site:

https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...docs/faqs.html
Differences in methods and protocols can shape the way estimates and projections are made of fertility, mortality, and international migration, and how these data are integrated with the population data.

So it seems that they are recognizing that data from various countries may be skewed by the way data was collected in various countries.

ETA: And one more thing:

From: https://academic.oup.com/heapol/arti.../6/755/5035051
One study found that that while the ratio of late fetal deaths to early neonatal deaths in countries with available data stood between 1.04 and 3.03 (Gonzalez, 2015)—a ratio which is representative of Latin American countries as well (Gonzalez and Gilleskie, 2017). Cuba, with a ratio of 6, was a clear outlier. This skewed ratio is evidence that physicians likely reclassified early neonatal deaths as late fetal deaths, thus deflating the infant mortality statistics and propping up life expectancy.
...
Other repressive policies, unrelated to health care, contribute to Cuba’s health outcomes. For example, car ownership is heavily restricted in Cuba and as a result the country’s car ownership rate is far below the Latin American average.... A low rate of automobile ownership results in little traffic congestion and few auto fatalities.
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Old 19th March 2019, 09:50 AM   #63
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That's why people risk their lives to defect. They want to increase the chances of their babies dying. What's a 90 mile boat ride or paying a poacher in Mexico when the payoff is a 20% increased chance of your baby dying in its infancy.
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Old 19th March 2019, 10:03 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
For those who want a bit of background on p0lka's post;
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-47491964

Good god. I have no words.
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Old 19th March 2019, 01:38 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Yes, the CIA did report that. But I rather suspect that they are basing data on information provided by government sources. (I doubt very much whether the CIA is sending field agents to cuba to count the number of babies born.)

Granted, the actual source of the data isn't easily found in any of the references, but they do have this on their web site:

https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...docs/faqs.html
Differences in methods and protocols can shape the way estimates and projections are made of fertility, mortality, and international migration, and how these data are integrated with the population data.

So it seems that they are recognizing that data from various countries may be skewed by the way data was collected in various countries.

ETA: And one more thing:

From: https://academic.oup.com/heapol/arti.../6/755/5035051
One study found that that while the ratio of late fetal deaths to early neonatal deaths in countries with available data stood between 1.04 and 3.03 (Gonzalez, 2015)—a ratio which is representative of Latin American countries as well (Gonzalez and Gilleskie, 2017). Cuba, with a ratio of 6, was a clear outlier. This skewed ratio is evidence that physicians likely reclassified early neonatal deaths as late fetal deaths, thus deflating the infant mortality statistics and propping up life expectancy.
...
Other repressive policies, unrelated to health care, contribute to Cuba’s health outcomes. For example, car ownership is heavily restricted in Cuba and as a result the country’s car ownership rate is far below the Latin American average.... A low rate of automobile ownership results in little traffic congestion and few auto fatalities.
I suspect this is a consequence of US policy! A US policy promoting the health of Cubans by preventing the export of cars to Cuba; consequently Cubans are all fit and thin since they have to cycle everywhere, and pollution levels are lower! Perhaps the US could adopt this sort of pro-active health promotion for their own citizens?

As the article documents even if you accept the assumptions and the revised figures the health outcomes after adjustment are still excellent for a developing world country under sanctions restricting its economic growth for many years.
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